Yes to circumcision of male babies/children
No to circumcision of male babies/children
Um, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that English is not your native language.
Only 2% of the US population is Jewish. I don't think the 70-80% circumcision rate in the past decades here had anything to do with that. It is more of a cultural thing and not a religious thing for the vast majority of parents who decide to do it. Jews don't pressure non-Jews to circumcise, at all.
Also, addressing the entire thread as a whole, I don't think chopping off pinky fingers or severing part of the backbone (tail docking) are good analogies to circumcision. Slicing off nostrils (as was said earlier) or earlobes would be more analogous since no actual bone is being cut. (no pun intended)
"Man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills" - Arthur Schopenhauer
It is very much like removing tonsils to me, since they have a function that wasn't always realized, like foreskin, and it is removed to prevent that part from infection. The difference, is that a tonsillectomy is not done on newborns, and only done with painkillers. We are finally realizing that tonsillectomies are unnecessary in the majority of cases, so they are now usually performed only when there is a greater need. This is how circumcision should be; done later in life, only if needed, and with anesthesia.
What I find most disgusting is how the foreskin is sold to cosmetics companies so women can have smoother faces. (Can you say, "EW?!") Care to slab baby foreskin on yourself, madame? It's just as gross at those placenta shampoos.
Warning: The following post is graphic and discusses painful but factual procedures, read at your own risk.
I think it was Korn and Harpy who mentioned about a year back how much more severe and traumatic female circumcision, aka FGM, female genital mutilation, is and I whole heartedly agree. Unlike typical male circumcision done to newborns, where the victim will have no recollection of the event (or the pain) in later life and still have fully functional genitalia and sexuality, victims of FGM are young girls or teenagers being held down by ten other women without the use of anesthesia while the practitioner (unskilled, using non-sterile equipment, and not in a medical environment unlike US male circumcisions) uses primitive instruments such as cutting sheers or pieces of glass to perform a clitorectomy and/or infibulation.
In researching the prevalence of US male circumcision for my post a couple of days ago I was shocked to discover that FGM is not only alive and well (despite being technically illegal in most countries) but is even going on in our own countries. According to the Foundation for Women’s Health, Research and Development (Forward), 279,500 women living in the UK, for example, have suffered FGM on British soil with 22,000 young girls living in families where it likely will be done to them too.
The problem is the people who do this don't see it as mutilation at all and wish it of their own daughters. It is all very disturbing to even contemplate.
FGM is horrible. It is certainly a case of cultural customs being unethical. FGM is a practice that needs to be ended.
With that in mind, while male circumcision might not be as traumatic, it still needs to be addresses as an unneeded cosmetic cultural mutilation of young boys in the West. It might not stoop to the horrifying levels of FGM, but it is a practice that still should be stopped excepting dire medical need.
context is everything
I just cant comprehend why a parent would look at their new born son and think lets chop teh end of his penis off
here is a clip from "Birth As We Know It" on circumcision, I had to watch it peeking out from behind my fingers.
It shows the acual operation so be warned before you click play.
[youtube]XmX6RdRNoqk[/youtube]
i'll never forget the sight/sound of someone chopping off little puppies' tails, imo circumcision is exactly the same unless done for medical reasons where there are no other solutions.
Pointless and cruel in my op.
My father still suffers flashbacks from being circumsised on the kitchen table, aged 7 years old
In the name of religious beleifs of his parents.
I amjust interested in opinions that's all.
I am writing an essay on it and wondered if anyone had any knowledge,experience or would just like to share their thoughts
a terrible injustice made all the worse as it is perpetrated by women
even perfect isn't perfect - Rubyduby 4th July 08
Hmmm, in norway it has been discussed about checking all young girls down there to find out if its circumsided or not. To prevent it and to catch those who do that. If I remember it right ...
I agree female genital mutilation is deplorable - cruel and often dangerous - but I wouldn't blame the women particularly for perpetuating it. Mostly it happens in patriarchal societies, and ones where women don't get much of an education, as I understand it.
There are some brave women from those cultures who are campaigning to end it though.
I watched a TV doc a while ago.
Young African girls in this one country would have this carried out as the norm.
Everyone of them look terrified and they certainly would not have received 'Westernised' standards of care.
It pissed me off.
Sugarmouse - try this for your essay:
http://www.womenofafrika.org/circumcision.htm
I Think, Therefore I Am A Vegan
I agree. I think it is a practice that is often defended by men and women for cultural and religious reasons which makes it all the more difficult to eliminate. I watched a film about it when I was studying Philosophy and Ethics and it is a barbaric operation to say the least. It makes me very angry to know that young girls are being mutilated in this way with parental consent.
(It is strange though how many people would condemn this practice but there are 18 year old girls getting breast implants in this country which also could be viewed as mutilation for cultural reasons, although it is consensual.)
(I think maybe it is 18 in the UK and 16 in America?)
Last edited by BlackCats; Aug 8th, 2008 at 09:32 AM. Reason: Wrong age
There is the argument that one shouldn't impose standards from one's own culture on someone else's. However as vegans we're at least consistent since we daily reject a practice that's acceptable in our own culture, i.e. meat-eating.
It was touched on in the Tribal Wives prog on the telly. It was the village matriarch who carried out the circumcisions, under the sincerely held belief that without being circumcised women were unable to have babies. She seemed surprised and sceptical when the Western woman said that wasn't the case.
Unfortunately my husband is circ'd, but no way, we'd never harm our children by cutting off any healthy parts of their bodies! It is insane some of the crazy reasons people in the US still use to try and justify it. IMO it's sexual abuse of an unconsenting minor.
mama to Ryan (7), AJ (6), Nate (3), Maia (1), all born at home.
I had a painful accident the other day on my bike that proved to me that foreskin is there for a purpose: protection. Without that I'd be in a lot of pain!
In former USSR was circumcision great crime.
In Finland is males and females circumcision banned,in denmark is banned only females circumcision.
Denmark have plan to ban males circumcision please send own support to danish parliament
e-mail: venstre@venstre.dk
E-mail: info@socdem.dk
E-mail: df@ft.dk
E-mail: konservative@konservative.dk
E-mail: sf@sf.dk
E-mail: radikale@radikale.dk
E-mail: enhedslisten@enhedslisten.dk
E-mail: nyalliance@nyalliance.dk
http://www.folketinget.dk/default.as...7-68D3A7955678}
http://www.folketinget.dk/default.as...D-21A6D7B181ED}
http://www.ft.dk/default.asp?id={05E...0-C8B74860893B}
----------------------------------------------------
http://theamericansentinel.com/2008/...cumcision-ban/
the first time i saw a "modified" male genitalia... was at age 10, when we had swimming lessons at school. at the end of it, all of the boys went to the shower room (the girls to a seperate shower room), and took their clothes off.
and of course i couldnt help but look at everyone's penises around me
i think we were around 13-15 boys, and one of us was circumcised. i have never seen anything like that before, and actually thought he had some sort of tumor down there or sth. back then i didn't know what it looks like when you have no skin around it.
actually, the thought that this was a disease lasted for a very long time.... until i was in my mid-teens and was introduced to american porn movies, where every man looks that way
I know some people think it's ok, but I would never mutilate my future son(s) like that. If he wants to be circumcised when he's an adult, that's up to him, but to me that would be equivalent to my parents chopping off my nipples when I was born. It's a minor procedure, sure, and not much immediate risk to my health, but the long-term psychological and physiological effects could range from nothing at all, to completely devastating. In the end, it's not the parents' place to choose, especially when leaving it alone is guaranteed to work out for the best in 99% of cases.
It's his body, and that's a major body modification.
Well.. I had a Circumcision operation on Wednesday. I could not bring myself to watch it and I asked the doctors to put me to sleep (as opposed to local anesthesia) during the procedure. It was to rectify a medical condition and the NHS covered it. Since it was done with general anesthesia, the whole procedure since admission to recovery and discharge took about 6 hours.
I had to get it done due to tight-foreskin. It still hurts down there and I was told that the stitches will take about 3 weeks to dissolve. To be honest, I preferred the look before circumcision. I cringe when I now look down there. Its probably due to swelling and stitches, it looks worse than it should.
Can I ask, how is the sexual sensation with a post-Circumcised willy? Less or more? I have read reports that said some circumcised men strugged to feel pleasure during sex! Any thoughts?
Life is like a boomerang: What goes around comes around - "Karma"rocks!
Obviously I can't answer the questions, but I wanted to say "get well soon". I'm sure swelling etc must be an issue so soon after the op.
Also can't help with your questions but I'll add my get well soon! Sounds really uncomfortable.
If it is less sensitive, it won't be much different, it might just make the buildup take a little longer.
Masturbation is likely to be where you notice the difference most, I would expect.
One annoyance I have with being circumcised is that I have a lot of scar tissue, which can get sore very easily. I was about 5 when it was done.
"Danger" could be my middle name … but it's "John"
ouch, poor boys!
I've known a few men to have circumcisions due to tight foreskins, essentially they wouldn't pull back and that can be quite a big problem (reduced pleasure, very difficult to clean and increased infection risk as well as looking a bit odd). It can take a while to be right afterwards but once it is sex should actually be a lot better than it was before in those cases.
In the case of children who have this problem and it is clearly evident at that stage then circumcision or partial circumcision would be appropriate (with anaesthesia of course) but otherwise I do find childhood circumcision to be wholly unacceptable and to be enforced body mutilation. I would not condone parents who get babies ears pierced or (in those societies where this is done) scarification or tattooing of children for exactly the same reasons. And I agree with much of what has so far been said against childhood circumcision.
As for whether circumcised/ uncircumcised is better as an adult, well condoms stay on better and there is reduced hiv and other blood born virus risk (there is a marginal increase in incidence of NSU in men who have been circumcised, NSU can be caused by any irritant entering the urethra as well as by bacterial/ viral infection). However a 'normal' uncut penis can look better, is to me more fun and it seems is a bit more pleasurable. But there are often times where it becomes more pleasurable after circumcision.
If I sink to the bottom I can run to the shore.
I'm surprised it still goes on for anything other than medical reasons tbh.
I don't support the circumcision of babies / children, unless there are sound medical arguments for it on an individual basis.
As for grown men being circumcised, two of my male friends have been circumcised due to tight foreskin and in both instances reported that sex became a lot more pleasurable afterwards. It would be interesting to know whether a man without a pre-existing medical condition finds sex less pleasurable after circumcision. Personally, I was circumcised as a baby so can't really comment (although I have no complaints with regards to attaining sexual pleasure).
One thing I have noticed with female friends and partners over the years is that most said that they had a preference for circumcised men. Most cited cleanliness and attractiveness as the main factors. Again, this is all anecdotal, but it would be interesting to know what women (and men) thought about it across various cultures.
gutts
Personally I prefer in-tact... as a lady I've "known" both, and I much prefer un-circumcised. I don't want to sound mean to any circumcised men, but I personally think natural is sexier. I've never had a problem with smell or hygiene, either I'm lucky with clean guys or maybe my mind just doesn't focus on that kind of thing in the moment!
I'm a guy. I've never ever experienced problems being "natural". Never. At all.
I don't see the appeal of getting altered.
I figure, if someone is old enough to get body modifications (tattoos, piercings, etc), then they should be able to get circumcised. But as a baby? No way. At least not routinely, as it is done today. Perhaps for religious reasons. But circumcision should not be the cultural norm.
context is everything
I am firmly opposed to circumcising infants/children for non-medical reasons.
I think that's all I have to say on the issue.
No, because they don't get a say in the matter. If they had to have to done for medical reasons, then of course. But otherwise, no.
Very slightly off-topic, but as well as being against circumcision undertaken for religious reasons, I am also against adulterers being stoned for religious reasons. I know, I know, just call me an old atheist softy......
lv
I do not know of where in religions it is important to circumsize as an infant. Can it be done after the age of consent and still follow religious doctrine?
context is everything
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah
I don't know if this is what you mean by "important" but thats the only thing that came to mind.
I still find it odd how circumcision is commonplace in the USA.. I don't think there's any need. Kinda feels like being robbed of something without knowing anything about it.
Lol I actually had to google image circumsized penis because I've never come into contact with one. I much prefer the look of uncut, however if my OH was circumsized it wouldn't put me off in any way because I love him. Obviously can't comment on the sensation, but I have heard that circumsized feels a lot better - wonder why that is?
I'm against circumsizing babies/children because it is a perminant body modification that they haven't chosen for themselves (even with the chance that they may be able to grow it back as mentioned earlier). It is completely barring them of the right to their own body. I agree with the fact it should be as much of child abuse as chopping off nostrils for no reason. You wouldn't tattoo your baby, don't chop off his foreskin!
I can't get my head around parents that think it is the right thing to do, I would never consider changing a single thing about my beautiful baby.
My mum waited years to even cut our hair she didn't want to change us so much! lol Bless her.
Just an update to my previous post in this thread...... To be honest, I think I like the look of my penis now. I guess its a matter of getting used to it. It healed very fast. The stitches dropped off in a couple of weeks time. And it probably took another 2 months for the post-op lumps to fully disappear. There is no scarring or loose tissues. My GP said that the urologist did a neat and a perfect job.
I was paranoid about losing complete sensitivity with a circumcised penis. But no! Everything is normal and it feels better (and performs better too ;-) )
I'm glad with the decision to get this sorted through the NHS.
Life is like a boomerang: What goes around comes around - "Karma"rocks!
The subject of circumcision came up at my newborn class the other day. It got me thinking.
How do people outside of America and Jewish communities feel about the aesthetic aspects of the circumcised penis?
Aside from how you feel about it being unnatural or whatever, does it look weird to you?
Last edited by Haniska; Feb 28th, 2012 at 01:02 AM. Reason: This was the first post in a similar thread
Sure, and when I lived in US (my oldest son was born there), I didn't meet anyone there who didn't felt that it was weird either. I don't think it has much to do with being American/non-American, Jewish/non-Jewish etc, but about respect for other living beings - kids in particular. I find it's weird that it's legal.does it look weird to you
American's don't like the look of an uncircumcised penis? I find that hard to believe. Where did you have your son?
I was responding about the phenomenon itself (to allow someone to cut if a part of their kids' genitals), not the look of it. I may have misunderstood your post, and thought it was about how we look at circumcision, as in "does the concept of circumcision look weird to you?". Circumcision, on babies/kids, is in my not so humble opinion, a cruel idea and at least as 'non-vegan' as harming non-human animals.... and not compatible with being a vegan, which is about avoiding to harm other living beings as much as possible.
Maybe you meant "aesthetic" and not "ascetic"?
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