View Poll Results: Male circumcision: yes or no?

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  • Yes to circumcision of male babies/children

    20 10.47%
  • No to circumcision of male babies/children

    171 89.53%
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Thread: Circumcision or no circumcision?

  1. #101
    VanillaBean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote Russ View Post
    To try to lump me into the same category as Hitler, Ernst Zundel and Henry Ford because I am against violence to children is pretty ridiculous, being that I oppose the cultural practice - in the same way I oppose the way pigs must be slaughtered in accordance with Judaism - rather than the right of genetic Jews to exist.)
    Jews don't eat pigs - they aren't kosher.

  2. #102
    Russ
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Hmmm. I wonder what I was talking about then. Give me a minute to find out.

  3. #103
    Russ
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    You're right, of course. I was recalling something from Eternal Treblinka about how animals are slaughtered in accordance with Kosher regulations; but of course pigs are not consumed at all by practicing Jews.

    Apologies.

    I won't go back and change that cause it would affect the flow of the thread now. But instead let's say kosher methods of slaughter in general; this was just an example anyway, I don't support any method of slaughter, obviously.

  4. #104
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Oh, do excuse me then. I suppose I should have said "in my opinion" they were attacked for their opinion.

    I can see this is an issue that you're very passionate about Russ.

  5. #105
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote Russ View Post
    IThe possibility that people support circumcision but are too afraid to engage in debate is not an argument for circumcision. You get no points for this one.
    I'm really very sorry Russ. I'm not trying to score points at all. I was just putting forward my opinion. If that's ok.

  6. #106
    Russ
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Yes, of course it is. It seems natural to me to strongly oppose this practice. I'm the first to admit that unlike more articulate members of this forum, I don't spend a lot of time on posts, I tend to write them at once and post. That's why, reading through this, some posters (sprite1986, absentmindedfan) come across a lot more convincing though I'm often making the same points.

    Disagreeing with someone does not constitute a personal attack. Having this view may hinder one's ability to engage in debate. Perhaps.

  7. #107
    Russ
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote Roxy View Post
    I'm really very sorry Russ. I'm not trying to score points at all. I was just putting forward my opinion. If that's ok.
    You make it sound as if I have told you or others not to post your opinions, and I know you're doing it deliberately, but if you look back through my posts I have not said any such thing. I have encouraged proponents to argue.

  8. #108
    sprite1986
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    As I said in my post, I do not have any problem with circumcision so long as the individual involved is fully consenting. I do not believe a baby, or a child can ever fully consent, and so my issue is with circumcision when it is enforced upon another, not circumcision through personal choice.



    If anyone (who has actually been circumcised...) has said or wants to say they are happy that it had been done to them, thats fair enough.

    But surely on principal, it is wrong to inflict anything on another person without their consent, most of all a little baby?

  9. #109
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote Russ View Post
    and I know you're doing it deliberately.

    LOL - this is the part where I graciously bow out of this conversation.

  10. #110
    Russ
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Seeya.

    Back to the issue at hand - any opinions?
    Last edited by Russ; Mar 25th, 2007 at 04:51 PM. Reason: semantics.

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I'm against circumcision as I stated and I have been circumcised. Does my opinion count double?

    I think I might even have agreed, but being only about 5 that really doesn't count for much I don't think.

  12. #112
    Russ
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I think that's an interesting topic for discussion in itself; at what age are children really capable of deciding important things concerning themselves (not just circumcision, but it is a good example).

    Though I guess people of all ages, do things they might regret later.

  13. #113
    Lilac Hamster
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    One of my nephews like you Pob was circumcised for medical reasons (at about the age you were I think).

    There needs to be more awareness among new parents that when it is done for medical reasons which initially seem valid, there might even then sometimes be an alternative.

    If it had been my son I think I would have researched on the internet before accepting it was absolutely necessary and it obviously would be an absolute last resort to have the operation done. Unfortunately I had no influence regarding my nephew and when I suggested to my mother-in-law there might be other conservative treatments which could be looked into, her attitude was that he was in pain and it had to be done, so I don't know if my sister in law was open to considering an alternative as I never got to ask her. They did not seem very open-minded, even though they were not in favour routine circumcision. Very few of the British favour routine infant circumcision, it pretty much died out in Britain in the 1950s. Can't imagine why the US is so far behind but then they are also very much more in favour of compulsory vaccination, one of the reasons my husband decided not to go for a job in the US as we would probably not be allowed to live there without getting all the kids jabbed which is something we were not prepared to do.

    http://www.norm-uk.org has some useful information for parents of boys who might face the medical circumcision issue (although thankfully most of us do not have to face it).

    I just hope my nephew grows up OK about it, and does not suffer any pressure or embarrassment for being circumcised the way many uncircumcised boys suffer in the US. I think pressure either way on the boy is wrong, it's not his fault and I find it shocking that some women actually consider it an issue if their husband or boyfriend has had it done or not (or even about a future son-in-law which is none of their business really). Men are not simply walking penises after all! I could not imagine it being an issue.

    Feminazism has gone mad to the point of male oppression in some areas.

    True feminists I would hope support equality and would agree with Absentmindedfan who put it very well about whose choice it should be.

  14. #114
    Greentara 1
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    This thread has been temporarily closed to let tempers cool.

    Thank you everyone.

  15. #115
    Greentara 1
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Dear members

    Thread open again.

    Please be nice despite the emotive subject.
    Thank you.

  16. #116
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I suppose I should have said "in my opinion" they were attacked for their opinion.
    If you tell someone that you think what they are doing (with eg. an animal, or a child) in your opinion is unethical and very wrong, it's easy to receive this as an attack on them personally, and not on what they are doing or have been doing in the past.

    Circumcision is also a very difficult topic to discuss, because nobody wants to hear from others that they - or their actions - are considered 'abusive'... AND: we're not even really discussing circumcision most of the time, but if it's right to do it it on someone else, if/when it can cause fear, pain or even cause a permanent trauma in this person. Discussing 'causing a trauma' or interference with other beings is quote different from discussing piercing or other physical changes on one's own body.

    Eve wrote above that she felt personally attacked, and I understand her, and still, I can't help feeling that causing pain and fear in others is wrong, even if it's common in some countries. The discussion and arguments actually have many similarities with the kind of communication we see between vegans and non-vegans:

    A: "It's wrong to harm an animal"
    B: "It's just a tradition, don't worry. It's not a big deal for me"
    A: "But it's a big deal for the animal that is killed or harmed, it's unethical to cause suffering in others"
    A: "So you're attacking me?"
    B: "No, but I strongly disagree with what you do"

    Some people may not be aware of that there are massive campaigns against male circumcision, and may simply not have given the alternative (= no circumcision) much thought.

    Circumcision may be some medical benefits (higher incidence of the the HIV virus in non-circumcised men was mentioned), but in terms of preventing AIDS, I don't think anyone would suggest circumcision as an alternative to condoms.

    Stuff like cosmetics or medical reasons may be considered an argument pro circumcision by some, but is it really an argument pro using a knife on the most sensitive part of a little boy's body before he's old enough to understand why they are doing this? For a baby, I'm sure this must feel just like if his parents are would watch others attacking him with a knife - down there - without trying to prevent it, and I'm pretty sure that the psychological shock is worse than the pain itself.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I never said I was 'right' but open to debate. I am sorry Russ that you feel attacked for 'not being funny' that was not my intention to be rude. I am mature enough however to overlook swearing and terms like wierdo abuser etc because we weren't all raised to show respect under difficult circumstances.
    I respect everyone's opinions on this thread and am trying to listen.
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  18. #118
    sprite1986
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I'd feel quite justifed calling anyone who harmed animals (human and non-human) for aesthetics pretty 'abusive', and 'weirdo's', but that's my opinion.


    As Korn said, this is an emotive subject, with a lot of strong feelings on both sides, and as such, understandably brings out strong reactions, particularly in males (funnily enough..). Beautifully said, Korn.
    Last edited by sprite1986; Mar 26th, 2007 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Choice of words..

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote pat sommer View Post
    Thank you to all the snipping parents for my daughters future happiness!
    so it's okay for parents to mutilate their children so your daughters can sleep with men without foreskin in the future, I find that statement quite horrifying. I think that parents teaching their sons a little about hygiene is all that is needed !
    If they were to cut off their eyelids you would be screaming abuse I'm sure, IMO circumcision is no different. You're born with foreskin for a reason, and parents have no right at all to make the decision to get rid of it.

    On a different note I think that it also is quite wrong to be making comments about how people on this forum may or may not have have been raised. I don't think that is very mature or respectful.

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    ok despite what was said (or not said) on another thread by me, in which I think I was misunderstood, I am anti-circumcision of any kind (male or female) all my brothers have been circumcised as far as I know, due to religion (muslim) but I don't personally agree with it, especially as the child usually has no say in the matter. I remember when my youngest brother was circumcised, I must have been about 5, and I remember thinking how horrible a thing it was to do.
    I think its a decision men can make for themselves as adults. I actually do find the practise in the name of religion, really odd. I can't actually believe some of the horrific things that are done to children in some parts of the world, including female genital mutilation as well, are allowed to be condoned by any religion....but that's my disillusionment with religion for you. Just my opinion!
    "On the dance-floor I am a world class freak... Its the beat"

  21. #121
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote Korn View Post
    Some people may not be aware of that there are massive campaigns against male circumcision, and may simply not have given the alternative (= no circumcision) much thought.
    Also, I think until fairly recently it used to be widely believed that babies couldn't feel pain - see this (rather grisly) article for example

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...ies-pain_x.htm

    All in all, it's very understandable that people would have had their children circumcised in the past, but it would be nice to think that today's parents review the evidence for and against, instead of following a cultural or national norm unquestioningly.

  22. #122
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I'm thinking that I may have given some people the impression that I am pro-circumcision.

    Actually, I'm not for it or against it. It's something that I've never really given much though to as a female that is never going to have children. So at this point in my life, I haven't really formed an opinion on the matter.

    I like to see what everyone has to say about the matter.

  23. #123
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I think this poll needs another option. As I think I mentioned before, an ex of mine was circumcised for medical reasons as a child. I can't remember now what they were but I know he was in pain before...I think maybe his foreskin wouldn't retract correctly. So, for him, I guess it was a necessary thing. I am against circumcision for any other reason.
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  24. #124
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Good point, RW. I suppose I assumed "except when medically necessary" was implicit in the "no" option...

  25. #125
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Sorry that this reply is a couple of days late, I've been very busy over the weekend.

    Quote pat sommer View Post
    Thank you to all the snipping parents for my daughters future happiness!
    That is possibly the most offensive thing I've had the misfortune to read on this forum. How would you feel if I thanked mothers for pressuring their kids into having breast enlargements because it benefitted the happiness of others? I'd like to hope you'd be livid because it would be just as offensive.

    If anyone's in any doubt about this, how is it different from debeaking in factory farms?

    How can people be members of a forum which espouses a selfless approach to animal welfare, but deny others the right to choose what happens to their own bodies? This is exactly why some omnis criticise exponents of animal rights for seemingly putting animals above humans while we all know most people who are aware of animal rights are just as aware of human rights.

    And this isn't attacking anyone. I'm asking you to think.

  26. #126
    Russ
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I'm stepping down, I've caused a few too many bust-ups here as of late.

    pat sommer - I apologise for using the words "weirdo" and "abuser". My problem is I type and then hit post whereas many others (on both sides of this) actually take the time to think through and reword their posts. My point still stands, but I need to give more thought to tact.

    Thanks Greentara for closing the thread temporarily, I think that was what it needed, it certainly gave me a chance to calm down.

  27. #127
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Redwellies is right that some boys do suffer pain when their forskin does not retract as it should and circumcision alleviates this pain. I agree with Lilac Hamster that there are probably other ways to deal with this now.

    As I mentioned earlier, my brother-in-law was circumcised because he was experiencing pain and my husband was sent for the same op. although he had no problem. Since reading this thread I have asked him how he felt about this. He says that it's no big deal at all for him and he feels fine. I felt like mentioning this in order to maybe give a bit of balance to this discussion. I'm not pro-circumcision and neither of us would want a son of ours to be circumcised. I do feel sorry for those who aren't happy with what has been done to them.

  28. #128
    told me to Mr Flibble's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I've somehow managed to completely miss this thread's existance

    Needless to say, I'm against parents making any irreversible decisions for children which really don't need making. If a kid decides when they are old enough to have sex that they want it done, so be it.

    Religion, tradition etc etc are all well known irrelevent group mentality factors that people hide behind when they don't want to look at the reality of a situation and make their own choice. Come on, we're vegans, surely we all know this?!

    I don't think that it is as extreme as FGM, but that's not a good reason to do it.
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  29. #129
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I may have to be circumcised at some point in the future. It will be for medical reasons. My foreskin doesnít retract. If there are alternatives to circumcision Iím going to try them. Iím very afraid of having to go through an operation. But I wonít go through with it unless itís absolutely necessary. The foreskin serves a purpose. It is important for healthy sexual function. Cutting it off is absurd. I think the reason it is still being done is because itís a custom and some customs, even if they have no solid basis, take a long time to die out. Since babies do feel pain it seems a very unkind way to welcome someone into the world.

  30. #130
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote harpy View Post
    Good point, RW. I suppose I assumed "except when medically necessary" was implicit in the "no" option...
    The reason I didn't include that option was that AFAIK the discussion about circumcision always have distinguished between circumcision for cultural or religious reasons and surgical (is that the right word?) treatment...
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  31. #131
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote sprite1986
    But surely on principal, it is wrong to inflict anything on another person without their consent, most of all a little baby?
    I haven't posted for a while, but after reading this thread I feel I have to pop in here to say that the very core of my veganism is based on this principal, and I am actually struggling to comprehend that some vegans support the non-medically necessary circumcision of unconsenting children.

    Also, Korn said pretty much what I was thinking as I read, regarding discussions/arguments between vegans and non-vegans.
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    Homer: "Well, I think the veal died of loneliness." ~ Matt Groening, The Simpsons

  32. #132
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote coconut View Post
    The foreskin serves a purpose. It is important for healthy sexual function. Cutting it off is absurd.
    Whatever you decide coconut, my best wishes to you.

    Regarding the above quote - what is the purpose of the foreskin? This is a real question, because I honestly don't know what it's actually there for.

  33. #133
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    If you Google the purpose of the foreskin you'll find a lot of info...
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  34. #134
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I've never seen someone who hasn't been circumcised, but I live in America and haven't seen many penises to begin with. The thought of touching one that is uncircumcised kind of freaks me out but so does having part of my future son's body cut off and thrown in the trash!! Circumcision was meant to be a covenant symbol between Abraham's people (of the Old Testament/Torah) and God. If you don't feel that that is relevant to you, then there's probably no need for circumcision (except for a few medical cases that have been pointed out). Anyway, I know not everyone on the forum believes the Bible, but I thought I would point out the historical/religious origin of the subject. This was the topic of discussion in my Old Testament class today. Hope that's not all redundant- I only read a couple of the pages of posts!!
    AngelaMc

  35. #135
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    That's interesting about the origins of circumcision, angelamc, but even people who are religious are selective about which parts of the scriptures they carry out, aren't they? Not many Christian or Jewish people seem to be in favour of stoning people who commit sexual irregularities, but the Bible says you should (Deuteronomy chapter 22 verses 23-24). So presumably you could decide to disregard the bit about circumcision as well?

  36. #136
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote Korn View Post
    If you Google the purpose of the foreskin you'll find a lot of info...
    I know but I'm also interested to hear what the people in this conversation think the purpose of the foreskin is.

  37. #137
    Lilac Hamster
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I thought it was for the protection of quite a delicate part of the body, as I understand it the area under it is quite sensitive. I'm not male so I might be totally wrong, and I am sure it has other purposes!

  38. #138
    frugivorous aubergine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    My guess would be that it prevents debris from entering the urethra.

  39. #139
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    harpy,
    The whole point of my post was to say that if you don't find circumcision relevant, then you probably shouldn't do it. Please don't turn this into a religious attack.
    Angelamc

  40. #140
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Sorry, I wasn't aware I was attacking anyone - I simply asked a question.

  41. #141
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I think Harpy has a good point - when following any kind of religion or scriptures, it's relatively easy to find quotes that can be interpreted in opposite ways, which means that it's up to each and every person to decide both which religion to follow, which part of the scriptures to focus on, and how to interpret then. It seems relevant both to mention the religious origins of circumcision and to mention that religious scriptures can be both interpreted and ignored...
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  42. #142
    Knolishing Pob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    It actually might make good sense for people living in a dessert with limited access to water, where sand gets in all your nooks and crannies, and it is difficult to be scrupulously clean. If this were the case then it may be in the interests of the child and would be acceptable.

  43. #143
    Lilac Hamster
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Please do not read this link if you have a problem with attacks on religion, some of you might like it though as it very well illustrates the inconsistency of some religions in which laws they follow and which they discard! This does not only apply to Judaism obviously.

    http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/joke/laura.htm

  44. #144
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I agree that men have a right to decide and it should never be done without their consent... nevertheless, in my personal experience, circumcised is a lot cleaner/more hygienic (and my partners have generally been pretty clean anyway)... then again, I probably haven't experienced a representative sample

  45. #145
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I see the WHO is now recommending it as an HIV prevention measure in some areas of the world.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6502855.stm

    Let's hope they won't encourage people to do it to unanaesthetised infants

  46. #146
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    My understanding is that it is routinely done without anesthesia on infants. The argument is that anesthesia of infants is dangerous and up until recently doctors thought babies couldn't feel pain , JUST LIKE FISH!

    Is this WHO report talking about circumcising adults?!
    This doesn't add up. If given the choice of:
    A) No sex.
    B) 100% faithful use of condoms for all sex.
    C) We cut off part of your penis. And by the way, you still have to use a condom for every sexual encounter because studies show the "cutting off part of your penis" part is only 48-60% effective.

    There are men who choose "C" ?

  47. #147
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I suppose they're talking about countries where condoms aren't widely available, i.e. if the men wouldn't use condoms anyway, they should be circumcised so that only 40% of them who are exposed to HIV will contract it . That's my guess anyway...

    However, again I can't see justifying cutting off part of a penis to reduce the risk of a disease. What's next? "New study shows that cutting off breasts reduces breast cancer by 99%! Come out and get your breasts removed for the sake of your health!!!" I don't think that would go too well, so why does nobody bat an eyelid when we're talking about a foreskin instead of breasts? It's kind of like meateaters who say "It's wrong to kill and eat my pet dog, but it's ok to eat a cow". They're conditioned to believe that cows aren't as important as pets, just like many people are conditioned to believe that foreskin isn't as important as other body parts.
    "Man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills" - Arthur Schopenhauer

  48. #148
    raven34
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    What an interesting post.
    As a circumcised male aged 52 I have never had a problem with the issue. I believe I was circumcised because my father was and my son has been circumcised for the same reason. Personally I think the real reason has been lost over the generations.
    The subject came up recently and I was referred to a website which has led me to believe that the whole practice is totally wrong. We would not have foreskins if they did not have a function.
    The following website is rather graphic (so don't go there if you don't want to see a penis and or a vagina) but is so in the interests of explaining the reasons why we shouldn't be circumcised.
    I will definitely show it to my son and my daughter and this will possibly stop this practice in our line of the family anyway.
    http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com
    This refutes the members in this post who say sex with a circumcised male is better than sex with a "natural" man.
    Just food for thought.

  49. #149
    Va'amish Heartsease's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I consider circumcision legalized (and in the US/Canada) socially accepted child-abuse. Iym sorry,butt I can't see it any other way (unless there are some rare medical reasons). Guys can keep clean without bein' mutilated. And some people prefer the natural scent of a man with a foreskin. Iym from the UK where guys are usually pleasantly complete (although I have very limited direct experience.....hee hee).
    There's NOTHING yukky about the intact penis. Nothing! It is a beautiful thing!
    "You can discover more about a person in one hour of play than in a year of conversation" ~ Plato

  50. #150

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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I totally agree with you Heartsease! I dont know where this tradition sprang from, but how can mutilation of the body ever be right? especially in the eyes of god, after all that is how he/she made us.

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