View Poll Results: Male circumcision: yes or no?

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  • Yes to circumcision of male babies/children

    20 10.47%
  • No to circumcision of male babies/children

    171 89.53%
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Thread: Circumcision or no circumcision?

  1. #201
    Goddess foxytina_69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    im not getting into why because i dont want to have anyone argue with me, as i know this is a very heated topic. i was simply stating what my answer was. thats all.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  2. #202

    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    You didn't have to say how you'd voted though did you?
    Stand up for what you believe if it's worth it.
    Perhaps your point of view will help enlighten others.

  3. #203
    Goddess foxytina_69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    i thought we were supposed to say what we voted, but okay.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  4. #204

    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I'm just interested to know because it's a very minority point of view here and I want to take all points of view into account. You can't be wrong about this, it really IS just about a personal preference imo.

  5. #205
    Goddess foxytina_69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    yes i understand, and i know its about personal preference, but again, if i state my reasoning for my feelings, an arguement will start, so im just going to leave it as it is.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  6. #206
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    it really IS just about a personal preference
    ...except that the personal preferences of the child that's being circumcised isn't taken into consideration.

    Looking at this picture...
    http://cache.aftenposten.no/multimed...SI_586163s.jpg
    ...it's pretty clear that this little human's 'preference' is the same as other living beings preferences when it comes to having a part of their body removed against their will.

  7. #207

    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Sorry Korn. I meant legally, not morally necessarily.
    My views on the matter are documented earlier.
    I am sorry that foxytina_69 does not feel confident enough in her position or the rest of this community to post her reasons for supporting circumcision of children.

  8. #208
    Goddess foxytina_69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    im sorry that you think im not confident enough.

    it has nothing to do with confidence. it has to do first of all, with feeling confident enough im my own personal beliefs that i dont NEED to state what they are, or feel the need to explain myself. and second, the fact that i am comfortable enough leaving it the way it is simply because i would rather have peaceful conversations with people than arguements. clearly this is about me enjoying peace with others, rather than a confidence issue.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  9. #209
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Don't worry, Paul, I know what your (and most males') opinion is are.

    I've read most of the posts in this thread, and still find it hard to understand that vegans who are against physically harming/causing pain for animals (against their will), but OK with doing it against human babies.

    Since non-vegan votes have sneaked into the results (see the previous page), we'll probably just remove the poll and start another new one anyway, this time with four options:

    I'm a male: Yes to circumcision of male babies/children
    I'm a male: No to circumcision of male babies/children
    I'm a female: Yes to circumcision of male babies/children
    I'm a female: No to circumcision of male babies/children

    Another question is... should females have a say in terms of what to do with someone else's (males') genitals (against the the male babies'/children's will)? Maybe that's just as relevant a question as if it's OK to harm humans, but not animals - or if it's OK to criminalize harming other adults' genitals, but to allow people to harm children's genitals... Or: to disallow using a knife on others' (less sensitive) body parts, but allow people to use a knife on someone else's genitals (against this person's will). Like others here, I just don't understand how this kind of ethics can make sense to a vegan (or anyone else).

  10. #210
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote Korn View Post
    *snip*
    Another question is... should females have a say in terms of what to do with someone else's (males') genitals (against the the male babies'/children's will)?
    Not quite the question you asked, but interesting none the less... When I was first separated, starting the divorce procedures. I started dating again, no big surprise there. As I already have three children, I didn't want to have anymore, so I was going to get a vasectomy. Well... it turns out that if you are legally married in Mass, your spouse has a say in whether it will be allowed.

    I'm still a bit annoyed that as an adult, I don't have complete choice in what to do with my body.

  11. #211
    Goddess foxytina_69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    not all men feel that way. my boyfriend wants to have his children circumcised.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  12. #212
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    PMSL at otters little *snip* when he quoted Korns post. Very apt

    I disagree very strongly with circumcison of babies. No one should make such an important life impacting decision for another person and it makes me angry.
    Last edited by Maisiepaisie; Aug 8th, 2007 at 02:34 PM. Reason: changed a word to make more sense
    The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well

  13. #213
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    by the way, when i posted my answer, i had no idea that it would upset people, because i thought thats what everyone was doing. i thought they were posting their answers. had i known otherwise i wouldnt have made a post in the first place, so i didnt mean to upset anyone and im sorry for posting my answer if it has upset people. that is the last thing i was intending.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  14. #214
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    does circumcision have to be done without anastethic? cant it be done in a hospital?
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  15. #215

    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I, personally, am not upset at all. I really wanted to know your reasoning.
    Even at my ancient age I can always learn new things and change my point of view on the advice of others. Not looking to bash.
    I hope you understand.

  16. #216
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    okay im glad that i didnt upset you paul.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  17. #217
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    You didn't upset me either Foxytina. You're entitled to your opinion. When I said it made me angry, it was more at society really for allowing it to be normalized. IMO it shouldn't be legal.
    The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well

  18. #218
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote Korn View Post
    Don't worry, Paul, I know what your (and most males') opinion is are.

    I've read most of the posts in this thread, and still find it hard to understand that vegans who are against physically harming/causing pain for animals (against their will), but OK with doing it against human babies.

    Since non-vegan votes have sneaked into the results (see the previous page), we'll probably just remove the poll and start another new one anyway, this time with four options:

    I'm a male: Yes to circumcision of male babies/children
    I'm a male: No to circumcision of male babies/children
    I'm a female: Yes to circumcision of male babies/children
    I'm a female: No to circumcision of male babies/children
    A new poll seems a good idea.

    I don't remember what I voted in this poll but I think I was a yes. What I did not realised when I voted is that we were talking exclusively for babies (and without any medical reason behind it)...

    I think everyone should do with their own body what they think it's best (as long as it does not harm others) and this obviously involves letting the children become adults to decide... in some cases there might be medical reasons that justify circumcision before the children are old enough to decide.

    The people that I have come across that are circumcised (for medical reasons when they were children (not babies)) don't seem to think it's a big deal (although I am sure that, unless they have certain cultural/aesthetic values, they would not choose to do it if they had not had any medical reasons )

  19. #219
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    It does seem a bit ironic that (AIUI) we have outlawed most tail-docking etc of dogs, but circumcision of male babies is still legal.

    No doubt it's because of a feeling that we need to respect people's religious/cultural convictions, but you have to draw the line somewhere and I feel it's been drawn in the wrong place.

  20. #220
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I've become pretty engrossed in this thread, but for the reasons that for some reason this is an issue I have never really questioned before, and I am quite surprised at that myself! I still don't know exactly where I sit on the matter (regarding boys I'm talking here), I think mainly because I always thought circumcision was very common (the majority of guys I have been with have been circumcised) and nobody has ever expressed dismay to me. I think I would always have had to have an active reason to circumcise my own child should I get there, and don't think that would have/ will happen. But it has been very enlightening to read males opinions on this. I think I can see, however, how some contributers don't see it as an instant "no", even to the point of thinking it is fine to circumcise. As already stated, culture clearly plays the major role in this. It obviously is an issue not covered enough anywhere.

    I seem to have waffled quite a lot there, and still have not voted in the poll! I am still contemplating the complexities of this issue, watching the views here with interest. I am beginning to think though that I see no reason why I would commit to having a child circumcised (excepting extenuating circumstances) because my gut is telling me it is not my decision, and if there is the slight doubt that the person the child grew up to would rather they hadn't been, then it is not a route to go down.

    Hope that makes sense, I don't usually write long posts because I'm not very concise and end up confusing myself!

  21. #221
    Goddess foxytina_69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    well in my case i hope it DOESNT become illegal. i think families should be able to decide if they want their son circumcised or not.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  22. #222
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    How come the son doesn't get a say?

    Why are you so keen to have your son circumcised? You never said the reason behind it.

    Yes it can be done in hospital with general anaesthetic, but it's still flipping sore afterwards, not to mention there is always a risk with any operation. You'd not be too happy if your son didn't wake up from the anaesthetic, or he contracted MRSA (not at all unlikely in the UK).

    And then after all that he is left with less sexual feeling....

    I hope he's grateful....
    "Danger" could be my middle name but it's "John"

  23. #223
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote foxytina_69 View Post
    does circumcision have to be done without anesthetic? cant it be done in a hospital?
    General anesthesia for a baby (knocking them out completely) is considered extremely dangerous and giving them a local anesthetic prior to circumcision is done only rarely, about 4% of the time in the US and Canada according to this.

    On a side note:

    I hate to make the pole questions even more complex but I thought it important to note that whether or not one feels circumcision should be legal or not is independent of whether or not one is for it or against it. I am against circumcision for my own family but don't feel I have the right to impose my view on others. If my neighbor feels it is important to have their baby circumcised for religious reasons, etc, then I feel they should have the right to have that done in a medically safe environment and not have to resort to "back alley" illegal procedures where something could go horribly wrong.

  24. #224
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote Mahk View Post
    If my neighbor feels it is important to have their baby circumcised for religious reasons, etc, then I feel they should have the right to have that done in a medically safe environment and not have to resort to "back alley" illegal procedures where something could go horribly wrong.
    Back-street circumcisions are a consideration, although not for "rights" reasons I don't think. People may have a right to remove bits of their own bodies for non-medical reasons, but I'm not sure why they would have a right to remove bits of other people's.

    The fact that something is done "for religious reasons" doesn't mean that it's not up for discussion. (Can you tell I'm reading Richard Dawkins' latest? )

  25. #225
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    pob, i thought circumcision made the penis MORE sensitive giving more pleasure? my boyfriend is circumsized.

    and oh... i didnt know it was dangerous for babies to be put under. isnt there a local anaesthetic that could be used, just to freeze the areas so the baby wouldnt feel any pain?
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  26. #226
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    i think families should be able to decide if they want their son circumcised or not.
    Why should parents be allowed to make decisions that cause psychological trauma + irreversible removal of a part of their body for their kids?

    isnt there a local anaesthetic that could be used, just to freeze the areas so the baby wouldnt feel any pain?
    According to various psychologists even unfelt pain is stored in the body and creates stress (and trauma).

    Why should anyone be allowed to cause unnecessary pain in anybody else's lives? Female circumcision is already illegal - why should male circumcision be legal?

  27. #227
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    ha ha, anyone biting?
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

  28. #228
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    again, im not going into my reasoning for why i believe in circumcision.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  29. #229
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote foxytina_69 View Post
    pob, i thought circumcision made the penis MORE sensitive giving more pleasure? my boyfriend is circumsized.
    I don't believe it does. The head is dryer and the skin presumably thicker, there is scar tissue, plus it surely become desensitized over time. Masturbation is inhibited, too. Even if it made it more sensitive that wouldn't be a reason to do it in infancy, otherwise why not go the whole way and do genital piercing on babies, too.

    There are a whole lot of negatives and not a single compelling positive that I can see.
    "Danger" could be my middle name but it's "John"

  30. #230
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    well obviously i meant for his future, not his infancy.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  31. #231

    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote pat sommer View Post
    ha ha, anyone biting?
    Biting? Ewww.
    Even the most barbaric would still use a knife, surely?

    I'll get my coat, again..

  32. #232
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote harpy View Post
    It does seem a bit ironic that (AIUI) we have outlawed most tail-docking etc of dogs, but circumcision of male babies is still legal.

    No doubt it's because of a feeling that we need to respect people's religious/cultural convictions, but you have to draw the line somewhere and I feel it's been drawn in the wrong place.

    i was just about to say the same - i unfortunately stumbled upon someone one day in the middle of docking puppies' tails with a butchers knife - eugh, the squealing and the blood will haunt me for EVER . No, No, No, to any form of circumcision or any other form of mutilation .

  33. #233
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    i'm feeling really sick to my stomach to think that anyone could ever permit this to happen to their children

  34. #234
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Why do people dock puppies tails anyway? What is reason for it?

    Circumcision seems bizarre to me, in fact the more I think about it the worse it seems.

  35. #235
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    supposedly, Aphrodite, it's for the dogs' own good so they can't get their tails injured whilst they are 'working' . I had the grave misfortune of living and working on a country estate years ago . This was just one of many disgusting incidents which actually turned me into a hunt saboteur .

  36. #236
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    They don't want the tail to be injured so they cut them off - okay...makes so much sense.

  37. #237
    Maisiepaisie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Its also to do with aesthetics. The Kennel club set the breed standard and no dog would win a show with a complete tail if that particular breed is meant (according to the Kennel Club) to be docked.
    The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well

  38. #238

    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I don't want circumsicion to be illegal, per se, but I sure like it to be completely socially unacceptable as giving a baby a tattoo without their permission.
    context is everything

  39. #239
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    But piercings for a baby are still cool ... right ?


  40. #240
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    That picture is sooo cute.

  41. #241

    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote harpy View Post
    I believe people in America often do it for "hygienic" reasons? Washing seems to be a good alternative in that case.
    That made me giggle. haha. Personally, i don't see how it is more hygenic and i read somewhere that men with circumcisions are more succeptable to urinary tract infections or something.

    I think medical reasons then yeah, that's fine. (i guess religious reasons in a way, though i am personally against religion).

    But, my personal view... the foreskin is there for some reason, i don't go choppin off nostrils or whatever like innit.

  42. #242

    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote zorbed View Post
    But, my personal view... the foreskin is there for some reason, i don't go choppin off nostrils or whatever like innit.
    Quality.
    ..but what would they do with all the cows?..

  43. #243
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I hate circumcison, i think that it is one most terrible crime,clear sadism,outrage.
    Sorry, but i like to put all humans in the jail who allow circumcision.

  44. #244
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote mercysky100 View Post
    I hate circumcison, i think that it is one most terrible crime,clear sadism,outrage.
    Sorry, but i like to put all humans in the jail who allow circumcision.
    I do wonder why it's legal to circumcise a baby against his will, but if you do it to an adult against his will, it's assault.

    I also wonder why it's legal to circumcise a baby against his will, but if you cut off your baby's pinky finger, it's child abuse. It is a very strange societal construct that does not allow you to harm or injure your baby in any way, except that one thing.
    "Man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills" - Arthur Schopenhauer

  45. #245
    Mrs. Beane fondducoeur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    I honestly had never thought about this before, but i really see everyone's point now. I haven't been with too many guys, but they have all been circumcised. To any guys (in the US/Canada, or anywhere else where the majority have the procedure) who have not had the procedure done, do you ever feel self conscious around women, especially the first time they see it? It would not bother me at all, but I am just curious, and since I have never actually seen an uncircumcised penis, I might be caught off guard.
    tabbouleh-bouleh

  46. #246
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    blimey i didn't realise how common it is there!

    i think it's on a par with docking a puppy's tail (they also use the hygeine card for that sometimes) and should be banned!.

  47. #247
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Cobweb, around 70-80% of American men in their 20's or older are circumcised, but the current circumcision rate of newborns is down to 60%.

  48. #248
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote Mahk View Post
    around 70-80% of American men in their 20's or older are circumcised

    And perhaps that could point to why there might be such a thought variance on the topic, between older and younger generations.

  49. #249

    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Quote fondducoeur View Post
    I honestly had never thought about this before, but i really see everyone's point now. I haven't been with too many guys, but they have all been circumcised. To any guys (in the US/Canada, or anywhere else where the majority have the procedure) who have not had the procedure done, do you ever feel self conscious around women, especially the first time they see it? It would not bother me at all, but I am just curious, and since I have never actually seen an uncircumcised penis, I might be caught off guard.
    Hehe.
    I'm in the US, and I am confident around women in all spheres. If I was not confident, I'd imagine that it would be issue, but then again, so would a lot of other things (including the fact that I have the worst / most awesome / uneaven haircut of all time).

    If I was really uncomfortable, I'd a be chump. And I could also get surgery to make me like everyone else in the US. And I'd still be a chump for trying to be like everyone else instead of being myself.

    Luckily, I ain't no chump.
    context is everything

  50. #250
    Aradia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?

    Apparently, a man can encourage a foreskin (of sorts) to grow back. I saw a documentary about it featuring some men who were furious to have had their foreskins removed when they were young and basically wanted it back!

    All they did was stroke and pull their penis, not for gratification, but to stretch the skin. After some time of this the skin had formed a new foreskin.

    It sounds kind of funny, but it wasn't really. These men really felt assaulted and that they'd had something taken that shouldn't have been.

    My partner had a circumcision in his late 30s. It's quite common for the foreskin to become tight and even tear slightly. It makes sex a bit painful. He's never looked back since having it ... but then it was his choice, and it was for medical reasons.

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