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Thread: Wheat, gluten & celiac disease

  1. #51
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    Mmm, it has been happening for a while, but getting worse lately.
    I did an experiment last night by eating a load of toast in the evening (I only usually have it in the mornings), and immediately afterwards I had a sneezing session (this often happens in the morning but I thought it must be a dust-mite thing), the 'rumbles', and a tummy ache.
    It's definitely at it's worst when I eat a fake meat mix containing 'Vital Wheat Gluten', which I had for tea last night. I really crave it, but I feel dreadful after having it - was trying to ignore it but must now take action!!

  2. #52
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    Blue - how did you find out about your allergy, and what is the difference with a Gluten allergy, and a Wheat allergy?

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    Default Any vegans with Celiac Disease/wheat intolerance/gluten sensitivity?

    Hi all,

    Just wanted to know if there is anyone else out there with Celiac Disease or wheat sensitivity, etc. The reason I'm asking is because I have Celiac Disease (intolerance to wheat, oats, barley, rye, spelt...most grains actually, except for rice, potato and corn). I'd like to know how easy or difficult you find maintaining a vegan diet with the extra grain restrictions, seeing as wheat and other glutenous products are often added to vegetarian foods. What do you eat very regularly? Do you have any difficulties with vitamin deficiency or do you find yourself better off, altogether? My overall experience with going vegan has been pretty positive, however I would just like to know if there are others out there, like me!

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    Foxytina used to think she had celiacs disease but then found out that she is wheat sensitive. She doesn't seem to have too much trouble.

  5. #55
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    i actually do think im celiac now because when i ate flour i did get very sick lol. i think that was just because i didnt get sick when i first started eating it but a couple days later i was reallllly sick and had all the symptoms. silly me for eating it! but yeah i can eat flour once in a while and feel crappy from it but recover quickly. (i think thats the veganism making my immune system stronger so i can handle it better)

    its great that u ask this, as this is one of my main questions aswell. yes i do find it annoying at times, but hard no. i eat lots of brown rice bread in place of wheat bread, and other then that theres nothing too bothersome. i dont eat proccessed vegan meats or meals because they DO contain so much gluten that its insane.

    i probably SHOULD take a multivitamin but im too careless.

    it is easy to get all your nutrients regardless of the lack of grains. i just replace them with brown rice products for my grains.

    i have lots of gluten free vegan recipes i made myself because ive had to experiment so much. most recipes u can replace normal flour with brown rice flour with good results. (sometimes u need extra apple sauce or oil or butter to make it not dry)

    but there are others out there, like you!

    heres a link u might be interested in reading

    http://www.vegfamily.com/health/glut...vegan-diet.htm
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

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    Thanks so much for replying...

    It's good to know there are others... I don't necessarily find it as difficult as I THOUGHT it would be, but the one thing that irks me is the EXPENSE of the food. I don't find ~veganism~ an expensive diet, because one mostly eats veggies/fruits/nuts, etc... but buying any "specialty" product (i.e. gluten free, vegan parmasan cheese) as well as the gluten-free grain products is so very expensive. I will spend upwards of $6 on a loaf of bread, $3 on a box/bag of pasta, $5 on gluten free cereal. What's up with that? Don't get me wrong...I take my health very seriously and would spend whatever on food that is good for me and that I can eat, but ouch...the wallet hurts. Other than that, I do feel much better, but althought I eat plenty of iron rich, vegan foods (and take an iron supplement...I hope this is OK), my iron levels have plummeted since becoming vegan (mostly because having Celiac Disease in the first place makes it harder to absorb iron, even while eating meat products).

    Other than that, no real difficulties....I enjoy this way of eating much more than I thought I would in the beginning!

  7. #57
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    BTW, there's a lengthy article on Coeliac disease in the current issue of New Vegetarian & Natural Health magazine. Normally I wouldn't have read it as I don't know anyone with the condition, but as onion and foxytina have it, I read the article. Interesting.
    Eve

  8. #58
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    Question What is up with wheat?

    I have met so many people who don't eat wheat, not because they have any particular health disorders related to eating wheat but because they say it's so unhealthy. No one has told me what these health problems are.

    What is so wrong with whole-wheat? Why is it getting such a bad reputation? Am I poisoning myself with it?

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    Hmm, not eating wheat for health reasons? I've always thought whole wheat was healthy compared to refined wheats like white breads, crackers, etc.

    Sorry, I can't help you.

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    When you purchase the flour in the store. You usually don’t know how old the ground whole-wheat flour is? What you receive with most brands that you buy in the store is ‘reconstituted whole wheat’. The commercial whole-wheat flour is processed like most of the white flour. The nutrient-rich, darker-colored bran, germ and endosperm are mechanically separated then recombined into “whole wheat”. If you make your own freshly milled whole-wheat flour (takes less than 5 minutes if you have a breadmachine you can add it to that after you are finished) you receive far more nutrients than the flour you receive in the store.

    Most of the whole-wheat nutrients not purposely discarded with the germ and bran often succumb to the long, hot, repetitive milling process, or to chemicals used to artificially “improve” or bleach flour. There are significant losses that can happen in heat-sensitive B vitamins, vitamin E, enzymes and other healthful components. A lot of your commercially produced whole-wheat flour frequently contains only enough bran for a healthful-looking brown tinge, and virtually no germ.

    This is why the Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) 1999 labeling rules specify that claims about health benefits associated with whole grains can appear only on products that contain at least 51 percent whole grains by weight. These health benefits could be plastered all over home-milled flour because it contains the grain, the whole grain and nothing but the grain.

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    That makes sense but I'm talking about how people are now anti-wheat. Won't eat gluten even sprouted 100% whole wheat because wheat is *bad*. I just never found out why they think it's bad. I'm assuming it's along the lines of the anti-soy campaign.

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    Hmm I have not heard that.
    I tend to stay away from it since it causes 'mucous' for me even with the freshly ground whole wheat. I noticed this when I eliminated it in a food cleanse. When I 'reintroduced' it in my food consumption my nasal passages were not as clear. I eliminated it again and I had no more problems.

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    Quote onion
    I will spend upwards of $6 on a loaf of bread,
    One option would be to buy a breadmachine and purchase gluten-free flour. If you eat bread a lot you will make up the cost for the breadmachine quickly. You just toss the ingredients in and wait for it to be done. A breadmachine makes bread making very easy!

  14. #64
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    I think that people just feel it is not a 'natural' human requirement - not sure. A lot of people seem to react to Wheat.
    I find it hard to avoid.

  15. #65
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    Wheat represents order, light, civilization, labor, commerce, servitude, Apollo, dominator values and society, man as opposed to woman.

    The opposite of wheat would be something like the potato.

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    Quote John
    Wheat represents order, light, civilization, labor, commerce, servitude, Apollo, dominator values and society, man as opposed to woman.

    The opposite of wheat would be something like the potato.
    Are you saying that men are strong and sturdy like wheat while woman are small and dumpy like potatoes ?

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    I just bought the book 'You Are What You Eat', based on the UK series. The author, and host of the show (I forget her name, Gillian someone - can't be stuffed going to check), makes a point that wheat is only bad, like everything else, if you overconsume it. It is because wheat is in almost every commercial product that people overconsume it. Whole wheat is not *bad - just vary your diet if you are worried about it. Even cabbage would be bad if you ate it 6 times a day (especially for the ozone layer )

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    I don't think that wheat is bad, it's just not that good, and there isn't a whole lot of difference, nutritionally, between the refined and the whole except for the fiber content.

    But, wheat doesn't have as much fiber as fruits and vegetables, so you can't really justify it because of the fiber content. It's more justifiable from a cost standpoint. Grains are so much cheaper than fruits or vegetables on a cost per calorie basis. They store well, they are convenient, but they are not great nutrition.

    They are inferior sources of most nutrients compared to almost all vegetables and many fruits. And although they are found to be protective (for cancers, CHD, diabetes, and other diseases) in many studies, they are generally less protective than fruits and vegetables.

    http://members.atlantic.net/~dec/wheat.JPG

  19. #69
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    Breads obtained from specifically natural food sources, do seem to contain very high quality ingredients, much different in taste and texture than commercial whole wheat from the supermarket. One seeks out stoneground products to avoid milling that removes or reconstitutes parts of the grain, and also avoids higher heat.

    Other than some fairly informed awareness in shopping, unless you can grow it yourself, you do the best you can. Buy organic. None of our food is actually natural either.

    One drawback of past times where everything was homegrown, many more people starved when crops failed. Not a very nutritous situation either.
    I am a tangerine ;)

  20. #70
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    Lightbulb gluten

    Extract from Gluten-Free Cuisine article by Kimberly Jordan Allen in the E/nagazine: Is Avoiding the Protein Better for Us?

    Gluten is a protein commonly found in many foods, from sauces to breads to cereals. What are its health implications? Gluten is the elastic, water-insoluble protein found in wheat and other grains such as rye, barley, kamut, spelt and oats. It is also found in a surprising number of products on supermarket shelves. Gluten is used as a thickener and binder in thousands of such products as soups, sauces (including soy sauce), candy, artificial cheese, pharmaceuticals and even envelope glue. In the typical Western diet, wheat is the primary source.

    For someone suffering from celiac disease, all forms of gluten are toxic to the digestive system. This means sufferers must avoid gluten in every form. The protein causes an immunological reaction in the small intestine, resulting in the disintegration of the finger-like villi that facilitate the absorption of nutrients. People who have been afflicted with this condition for extended periods of time lose their ability to process food normally, thereby leading to potentially severe health problems.

    Long misdiagnosed, new studies suggest that up to one in 133 people are afflicted with celiac disease. People can also go years without being diagnosed due to the multifaceted symptoms, which include diarrhea, gas, bloating, weight loss, water retention, constipation and dermatitis. Long-term effects of the condition are anemia, malnutrition, osteoporosis and cancer. Some people also suffer an immediate allergic reaction to wheat or gluten, and others say they just feel better without it. But to deem gluten simply unhealthy seems to be a stretch.

    ... The notion that wheat is unhealthy is definitely not the norm, but in the era of Atkins and South Beach anti-carb diets, people may be tending to think of wheat as junk food. Many are losing weight on these higher-protein, higher-vegetable diets, but nutritionists caution they may be missing out on important nutrients once grains are removed, such as B vitamins that are found in whole grain wheat.

    Some people experience gluten sensitivity without knowing it. Melissa Diane Smith, author of the book Going Against The Grain, warns that glutenous grains might be wreaking havoc on our health. Claire Williamson, a nutritional scientist at the British Nutrition Foundation, disagrees that gluten sensitivity is more common than currently believed, and she stresses that wheat is an important part of the daily diet. Most Western physicians and dietitians believe that in the absence of strong symptoms of intolerance, a gluten-free diet is unnecessary.

    It may be a good idea to get checked for intolerance if you experience chronic digestive disorders that have gone undiagnosed. A blood test can determine if you have the antibodies that signify the disease is present. An intestinal biopsy verifies the presence of the problem. A gluten-free diet promises relief.

    A gluten-free diet is demanding and typically requires much more time and energy in food preparation than one that contains more processed foods. Celiacs have no choice but to adhere to the regimen, but some are choosing this type of cuisine whether they suffer the agonizing pain of the disease or not. They claim higher energy levels and overall wellness. There is still carbohydrate intake for those eating gluten-free foods. The primary sources of flour, for example, are potato, buckwheat, corn, rice and quinoa, all of which contain high amounts of carbs. These carbohydrates are balanced by a sufficient intake of fresh organic vegetables, particularly dense leafy greens.

    There are many resources available to allow a beginner to whip up delicious meals without any gluten. In her book More From The Gluten-Free Gourmet (Henry Holt & Company), Bette Hagman, a celiac sufferer, pours herself into recipes for the wheat-deprived, including breads, pies, pastries, cakes, cookies and entrees. From almond orange biscotti to Italian herb sourdough, Bette makes the gluten-free experience a tasty feast, outshining the sense of loss that some feel when told they can never eat anything containing gluten again.

    At www.glutenfreemall.com, there are hundreds of products ranging from brown rice pizza dough to Bette Hagman’s own four-flour blend for multi-purpose baking. This site is directly linked to the information center celiac.com. Whether you suffer from celiac disease or are simply intolerant to gluten, there are many ways to keep the dining experience exciting and healthful.
    Eve

  21. #71
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    thanx eve that was an interesting read.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

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    I have alwyas thought i have gluten sensitivity thus I avoid wheat and gluten most of the time and eat only little at a time.

  23. #73
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    Yes, I am beginning to think I have exactly the same problem, thanks for the info, Eve.

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    It's amazing how much people in this forum knows. Thanks for your information, eve, and the link. I've been wondering lately if gluten also affects my condition, but haven't taken the time to find out about this subject.

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    Default Link between gluten intake and B12 deficiency?

    From http://www.nzine.co.nz/views/gluten.html

    "Gluten is also associated with mental disorders. Prof Klaus Lorenz wrote extensively on the subject in Cereals and Schizophrenia, 1990. Dr Chris Reading, an orthomolecular psychiatrist practising in Sydney, advises its avoidance to all his patients with mental disorders. He firmly believes that gluten can damage the stomach cells which produce Intrinsic Factor necessary for vitamin B12 uptake. Over time, it can thus create vitamin B12 deficiency with its accompanying neurological disturbances. Dr Reading therefore also prescribes B12 injections for these patients."
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    "Gluten is also associated with mental disorders. Prof Klaus Lorenz wrote extensively on the subject in Cereals and Schizophrenia, 1990. Dr Chris Reading, an orthomolecular psychiatrist practising in Sydney, advises its avoidance to all his patients with mental disorders. He firmly believes that gluten can damage the stomach cells which produce Intrinsic Factor necessary for vitamin B12 uptake. Over time, it can thus create vitamin B12 deficiency with its accompanying neurological disturbances. Dr Reading therefore also prescribes B12 injections for these patients."

    (From http://www.nzine.co.nz/views/gluten.html)
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    I am interested in these articles about gluten but I wonder if you are one of those who does not have a sensitivity, at one point does the potential harmful effects of gluten come into play; eating a serving once a week, once a month, daily? Most foods in excess have potential harmful side effects.

  28. #78
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    Default lactic acid/wheat gluten intolerance??

    had a dreadful night last night, face felt very hot and buzzy, kept waking up, felt neausous(?), i know my body and could tell it was something i had eaten.
    the only thing i could place it down to which i dont eat often was some ready noodles.
    ingredients contained wheat gluten & lactic acid. also some pre-prepared tofu had the same ingredients in.

    anyone ever had this sort of reaction? can lactic acid promote intolerance?

    feel better this morning if not very tired and a bit feebly-slow (no change there then!! )

    any offers?

  29. #79
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    was the lactic acid vegan?

    sometimes people just cant handle gluten filled foods. alot of people just randomly get sick from it, if i were you i would not eat gluten for a couple days and see how you feel. all you can really do is experiment and see what happens.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  30. #80

    Thumbs up Gluten Free and vegan!

    OH MY GOD!!!! I didn't think it was posible. Most are Gluten free and vegan!!! I have been having such withdrawl from wheat and gluten, its like when I turned vegan all over again. I am going to have to order some. Yum! Yum! Drewl! Mmmmmmmmm!

    http://www.zedzfoods.co.uk/produce.htm

    I've been so ill lately and I have had to give up things containing gluten. Do you know how hard that is??? So many things have gluten in. I have no idea how to bake a cake gluten free! This link might be too exspensive for more than on occassions but I will have to save my pennies.

  31. #81
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    i cant eat gluten, as i have celiac disease. i dont find it hard anymore tho! i have TONS of vegan gluten free recipes

    those sound delicious!
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  32. #82
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    oh and i forgot to say, i want to open up my own gluten free vegan cafe one day !
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  33. #83

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    I like the sound of a gluten free café Wish you were planning to have it over here in England!

    Its good to know there is someone in the same boat as me. Do you make your own bread? If so would you be so kind as to post it here for me. I’m having a tuff time at the moment, I normally eat this type of food http://vegan.meetup.com/142/photos/31338/97294/ but I am missing bread, cake and biscuits. I gave up pasta years ago so that’s no big deal, and I only ever had a slice of bread once a month or so but now I have had to give up hot oats in the morning and rye crackers I am at a bit of a loss.

    Do you buy any special flours, I have rice flour and gram floor but I haven’t done much with it yet. I haven’t tried the specially made gluten free flour yet.

  34. #84
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    Default Eating less wheat

    I know there's people with celiac who can't tolerate wheat gluten...am I correct?

    Are there other reasons to not eat a lot of wheat?

    I find on the days where I hardly eat any bread or no bread at all (I don't eat pastas), I feel much better than the days I eat a lof of bread things.

    Is this a coincidence?

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    According to you are what you eat, people develop intolerances to things that they eat excessively. Wheat and corn are common because they are in so many things. So maybe if you eliminate it for a while and then re-introduce it in small amounts it will be fine.

  36. #86

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    Just had some cakes from http://www.zedzfoods.co.uk/ I wasn't too impressed, they were very dry. It cost £8.50 for three muffins, one pasty and one tofu burger. Far too exspensive for my pocket!

    I really need to learn too cook but I don't have time as I only have a few months left at uni.

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    My naturalpath once told me it usually takes anywhere from 6 months to a year to properly rid oneself of an intolerancy, provided it can be gotten rid of (some intolerancies never go away). When it's reintroduced into the diet, it has to be done very slowly so it doesn't shock the system.

  38. #88
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    Foxy, thanks a lot for that link. i'm starting to think i must have a wheat intolerance, i suspected it for a while, as i get really bad stomach ache if i eat more than one serving of wheat in a day and it's been getting worse. perhaps my acne might improve if i cut out wheat too, so i'm going to try it.
    'The word gorilla was derived from the Greek word Gorillai (a "tribe of hairy women")'

  39. #89
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    this thread has been very interesting to re-read, as i'm starting to think i've got a wheat intolerance. recently i've been feeling terrible if i eat more than one serving of wheat in a day. today i ate a wholewheat bread sandwich for lunch, and had a small amount of wholewheat pasta for dinner, and i feel nauseous, with stomach cramps, palpitations and the shakes. i seem to be ok with oats though so it doesn't seem to be all gluten, just wheat. it seems to have been getting progressively worse in the last few weeks.

    i'm going to try cutting wheat out of my diet to see if it makes any difference. i don't know how i'll cope as i'm a little vulnerable emotionally at the moment, and although i don't crave wheat as such it'll be hard to change my diet so much. i suppose i have been a bit too reliant on wheat products.

    thanks very much to everyone who has posted links and advice on here
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    Default gluten

    ok, so what's the jist on gluten. i've been trying to find info on it, and it seems to be vegan (being that it's wheat-derived). also, it seems that the only reason to avoid it is if you have specific disorders like celiac disease. if anyone could fill me in on why i shouldn't eat it, i'd much appreciate it.
    Last edited by Korn; Apr 2nd, 2005 at 07:36 AM. Reason: This was the first post in a similar thread
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  41. #91

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    You have got it in one. It is vegan but people like myself can’t eat it because it makes me very ill. If your one of the lucky ones who don’t get ill from eating wheat and such like, then go for it. It is in a lot of the fake meats out there as well as cakes, biscuits, etc so it is a lot easier to be veggie when you can eat gluten.

  42. #92
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    Default Re: Wheat & gluten

    what's wrong with wheat.. or gluten?

  43. #93
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    Default Re: Gluten Free and vegan!

    Well there is a bread called lupin loaf that has no gluten egg yeast or milk, you could possibly add something to the recipe for it to make it cake, I'll look into it myself. I believe it has flax seed oil and such in it.

  44. #94

    Default The Sad Possibility of Wheat/Gluten Intolerance

    hi. i have been vegan for coming up to nine years (yay!) and for the last six months have been struggling with my first digestive/health issue relating to food since the vegan transition. the issue is definately food specific because sometimes it flares up, sometmes it is okay... so i thought it must be an intolerance or allergy to something - but what??!

    i think i have narrowed it down to wheat and/or gluten - and have spent the last two weeks avoiding all w/g foods and have found the problem has cleared.

    However, now i am feeling a bit sorry for myself because i feel my foods are going to be so much more restricted! Are there any other vegans here who are w/g intolerant, all the info i've found (which isn't much) relates to meat eaters...

  45. #95
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    Default Re: The Sad Possibility of Wheat/Gluten Intolerance

    This is apparently a widespread intolerance; have you checked out this website that may be useful? http://www.celiac.com/index.html
    Eve

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    Default Re: Link between gluten intake and B12 deficiency?

    There appears to be a break-thru with treatment/cure for coeliac disease: http://www.abc.net.au/news/health/so...s/s1477445.htm
    Eve

  47. #97

    Default Re: Wheat, gluten & coeliac disease

    Hey, I've been Vegan for over 5 years now and i've always been pretty healthy.Unfortunately though, i recently went travelling round the world and as there was such a limited supply of vegan food available (seriously, we are so lucky in England compared to other countries, even westernised countries like Australia and New Zealand are incredibly limited with vegan products) i've since become really run down.i had to go and see a nutritionist in the end and i'm now on 6 supplements a day and i have to eat protein with every meal and have to avoid wheat, sugar (don't always stick to that one!), tea, coffee, alcohol (definately don't stick to that one!), avocados, potatoes and yeast.it is really tough.especially the expense!i'm a student and can't afford to buy half the stuff i can actually eat!it does work though cuz i feel so much better and when i decided to "treat myself" when i found a vegan restaurant and ignore the nutritional advice a coupla weeks ago, i felt soo ill, really sick and hypoglycaemic.

  48. #98
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    Default Re: Wheat, gluten & coeliac disease

    From what you say about the limited supply of vegan food in other countries, are you saying that you went back to an omnivore diet? I've travelled pretty widely too, but although I've been to places without being able to buy tofu, soymilk, etc, but 'vegan food' to me is simply fruit, vegetables, grains, nuts etc - surely obtainable everywhere outside the north or south poles

    Perhaps going omnivore has led to your being run down. I can't understand why anybody needs to take 6 supplements a day. Supplements have limited effect anyhow. What sort of a nutritionist have you seen? (personally I give them a wide berth) Yes it is ok to avoid wheat, sugar, tea, coffee, alcohol, and yeast, but avocadoes are an excellent food. I'd say that sweet potatoes are preferable to ordinary ones. So how about returning to natural foods like fruit and vegies etc? You're definitely better off making your own dishes rather than eating in a restaurant, even a vegan one.

    All the best.
    Eve

  49. #99
    Why hello! xwitchymagicx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wheat, gluten & celiac disease

    I can't eat gluten but I haven't go celiac disease...i just get a migraine, feel sick and my eyes hurt
    "It's not that people suddenly start breeding like rabbits; it's just that people stopped dropping like flies" - population explosion

  50. #100

    Smile Re: Wheat, gluten & coeliac disease

    Quote eve
    From what you say about the limited supply of vegan food in other countries, are you saying that you went back to an omnivore diet? I've travelled pretty widely too, but although I've been to places without being able to buy tofu, soymilk, etc, but 'vegan food' to me is simply fruit, vegetables, grains, nuts etc - surely obtainable everywhere outside the north or south poles

    Perhaps going omnivore has led to your being run down. I can't understand why anybody needs to take 6 supplements a day. Supplements have limited effect anyhow. What sort of a nutritionist have you seen? (personally I give them a wide berth) Yes it is ok to avoid wheat, sugar, tea, coffee, alcohol, and yeast, but avocadoes are an excellent food. I'd say that sweet potatoes are preferable to ordinary ones. So how about returning to natural foods like fruit and vegies etc? You're definitely better off making your own dishes rather than eating in a restaurant, even a vegan one.

    All the best.
    No i didn't go back to an omnivore diet, i was determined to stay vegan the whole time but i mean things like tofu and soymilk for calcium and protein were difficult to get hold of.i was eating mainly fruit and veg but i don't think they are enough, when you have an iron and zinc deficiency, your body cannot absorb omega 3 oils from nuts and seeds anyway, they go straight through you.i'm only on that many supplements for a short period of time to boost energy levels and get my body back up to speed and then i'll only need about 2 i think.it's not because i'm vegan that i became deficient, it's because i allowed myself to be too careless for too long about making sure i ate the right things.it infuriates me when people assume that it's being vegan that makes me unhealthy, when in fact it was just carelessness.i'm determined to get back on track though and prove that when thoroughly researched and properly maintained, the vegan diet is by far the healthiest.Yes, sweet potatoes are fine, taste much nicer too.avocados are good but because i knew this, i was eating them too much and consequently became addicted (i know!) so i've had to avoid them for a while!in moderation they're excellent but make sure you don't become dependant like i did!thanks for the advice

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