Homeopathy

[Yoggy]

I've read a lot of posts by people who use homeopathic remedies to help with various ailments. I don't have a lot of experience with homeopathy, but the sceptic in me says that, given the way the remedies are made, they can't really be all that effective.

For those who don't know (and for those who do, feel free to correct me if I state something inaccurate), the principle behind homeopathic medicine is that, to cure a certain symptom, you take a substance that causes the symptom you want to cure, then dilute it to such a point that hardly any of the original substance is left. Taking small amounts of this diluted mixture should help your symptom go away. A good example is a homeopathic remedy to cure insomnia. The active ingredient is usually caffeine, but is diluted so much that there are literally only a few molecules of caffeine left in the mixture. Another principle is that the more diluted the mixture, the better it works.

So can someone clarify why homeopathic medicine is said to work? And does it have a better success rate than a placebo? I'm just sceptical about a lot of things, and I can't see how such a medicine can actually be effective in curing symptoms.

[BlackDog]

What about the effect of the squillions of other diluted ingredients in the water used to make up the homeopathic 'medicine'?

There's some info at: http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/2...homeopathy.pdf

[Yoggy]

Thanks for that link, BlackDog.

I should probably add that I do believe in other alternative medicines, especially herbs, to cure certain symptoms. Marijuana is known to cure nausea (not that I'm promoting it!), and dandelion tea is a mild laxative, for example. Lots of herbs have been shown to work for various ailments, but with homeopathy, there doesn't seem to be anything in the medicine besides water and lactic acid (the "carrier" for most homeopathic medicine capsules), and one or two (or possibly no) molecules of a substance which does the opposite of what you want to cure. How can this work

On the other hand, I read once about the "homeopathy paradox". A professor in Ireland (or the UK) was a very vocal opponent of homeopathic medicine, saying it had absolutely no grounds in science, and she decided to do some experiments to prove once and for all that there is no difference between a remedy diluted in water to 0.000000001 parts per million, and plain water. But the results of the study concluded that there was a fundamental difference. However, that's all I read about it, it was just on a "fun science facts" page and it didn't go into detail. I'll have to do some more research...

[piggy]

the 2 main principles of homeopathy seem to be 3: the dilution of the active ingredient, like cures like (ie coffe against insomnia), and the potentiation, which acts on the "energy" of the remedy. i don't know anything about how potentiation works, but that's where the explanation to the seeming paradox of the first 2 principles might lie.

a lot of people are convinced that homeopathy is bollocks, just because its working principles haven't been proven scientifically. but as i see it, 1, just because they haven't been proven, doesn't mean they can't be proven, 2, just because they can't be proven/haven't been proven scientifically doesn't mean that they don't work (analogy: many people belive in some spiritual entity which hasn't been proven scientifically to exist, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist)

in my personal experience and that of many people i know, homeopathy does work

[piggy]

i wanted to add that the principle like cures like, means that in some homeopathic remedies animal ingredients are used (snake poison against snake bites?). theoretically, seen as the remedy only contains a few molecules of the animal substance, i suppose it could be considered vegan, but on the other hand, the production of the remedy probably involved the killing/maltreatment of the animal...not so vegan

[Roxy]

But doesn't modern medicine act on similar principles? For example a flu vaccine contains a flu virus.

I don't know anything about homeopathy, but reading what you guys are talking about just reminded me of the vaccine thing.

[Gorilla]

that's very true Roxy, vaccinations were invented by treating a disease with a similar version of the same virus. it does sound similar to the ideas of homeopathy.

[Yoggy]

I agree with the vaccine idea, Roxy, but don't homeopathic medicines claim to cure symptoms rather than prevent them? You couldn't cure the flu with a flu vaccine, for example.

Piggy, I had never heard of potentiation before, I'll have to read more about it. Thanks for the info.

[Roxy]

I agree with the vaccine idea, Roxy, but don't homeopathic medicines claim to cure symptoms rather than prevent them? You couldn't cure the flu with a flu vaccine, for example.

Very true.

[John]

Often the substance is diluted to the point where it is unlikely that there are are any molecules of the substance present in a given dose of water. I think the followers believe that just the presence of the substance in the original mixture somehow alters the properties of the water in a way not measurable by science.

In my opinion, it's just another way for people to make money off of sick people who are either ignorant or desperate.

[absentmindedfan]

Well I suffer from hayfever very badly, and used to have to take antihistamines which were always in lactose tablets. I then took Luffa, a Vogel remedy for hayfever containing plant/herb extracts and my hayfever is fine, as long as I take it regularly.
My hayfever can't be cured by 'placebo' effect, I either get a reaction or I dont.
It's all well and good decrying anything that hasn't been proven by science as balderdash but science hasn't stopped discovering; there's still plenty we don't know and cannot understand yet and the presumption that man currently knows 'all there is to know' is ludicrous. It's why homeopathic remedies, acupuncture and so on intrigue me; they work on animals (I know several horses that have had acupunture treat a condition other medicines have failed to) and animals aren't privy to the placebo effect.
I think the world is a little more complex than we like to think. Or admit.

[piggy]

It's why homeopathic remedies, acupuncture and so on intrigue me; they work on animals (I know several horses that have had acupunture treat a condition other medicines have failed to) and animals aren't privy to the placebo effect.

good point about it working on animals too. as for the placebo effect, that would be true for any type of conventional treatment too, so being present on both sides of the equation, it'd just cancel out. so not a valid argument.

it also seems to me that all decent homeopaths advocate the use of allopathic medicine, surgery and homeopathic remedies depending on which is appropriate, they don't insist on the use of homeopathy only. personally i believe one should restrict the former 2 to urgent cases, but always keep them in mind as possibilities too.

homeopathy also needs to be understood in context. first of all, as far as i know, homeopathy doesn't cure symptoms, it cures the cause of the symptom. that's why you won't find a decent homeopathic remedy for headache or constipation, because they're just symptoms of some condition, (stress, or some other illness etc...) and not the cause. this means that:

1) the use of homeopathic remedies has to be in conjunction with an appropriate lifestyle and mindset. eg: if you take a homeopathic remedy for headache (they do exist, they just don't work very well), but continue working in the stressful environment that's causing you stress, which manifests itself through the symptom-headache, then the remedy won't work. conventional medicine in this case would work by suppressing the symptom, not the cause, plus it would have negative side effects.

2) trying to prove the efficacy of homeopathic remedies in general, by testing for the effect on symptoms such as headache, is pointless.

But doesn't modern medicine act on similar principles? For example a flu vaccine contains a flu virus.

vaccines i think work by introducing the body to the virus you want to vaccine against, so that the immune system will start building up a defense against that particular disease. if your body never encountered that disease before, it wouldn't have a defence mechanism against it.
this is only the case with vacines though, other medicines work on very different principles.

[Yogini]

When I first read about the principles behind homeopathy, I said "bollocks" too. But on an MD's advice I bought some Similasan eye drops and they work. If it weren't for them, I would have gouged my own eyeballs out last hay fever season.

[harpy]

AMF, are you sure that the Luffa remedy you have is a homeopathic one? I've been researching "alternative" hayfever remedies for a relative and come across a Bioforce/Vogel Luffa product but it seems to be a mixture of herbal extracts rather than a homeopathic remedy. There may be more than one version though.

Glad to hear that it works, anyway!

[Tigerlily]

My mother was taking homeopathic remedies for her urinary tract infection (she gets them every few months and was getting tired of anti-biotics). She took them for a month or two but the day she stopped, she got a major infection. It was really expensive too since prescription health insurance doesn't cover the cost of homeopathic remedies.

[harpy]

FWIW I bought him some of the non-homeopathic luffa stuff today and am happy to report that the snuffling and coughing has abated somewhat already.

Apparently luffa is the same as loofah so I could always buy one and use it to make tea or something...

[BlackCats]

I took a homeopathic remedy for hayfever for the last two summers and this year I haven't had hayfever at all. My symptoms used to be really bad, I had itchy eyes and sore throats and wheezing.
I had tried conventional medicine previously and that had a host of side effects and didn't actually work at all - so homeopathy worked for me.

[Pisces]

Aphrodite, do you remember the name of that remedy you took?

[BlackCats]

Yes its New Era for Hayfever and Allergic Rhinitis I got it from Holland and Barrett. The only thing is I bought it when I wasn't vegan so I don't know if it is ok.

I keep recommending them to people because it really turned the summer into a much better time for me. It seemed like it took a couple of years to see the effects but I am hoping that the effects are permanent!

[Pisces]

I do know of a vegan brand that makes remedies for various ailments including hayfever. It's called "Similasan". There's also a UK-based website, which has many supplements remedies that are vegan for all kinds of ailments. The website is www.genavita.com .

[BlackCats]

Pisces I might use that one next time as I actually bought some homeopathic tablets by Weleda the other day and they had lactose in them which I didn't check before I bought them which was annoying.

[Pisces]

You're kidding. I guess not all of Weleda's products are vegan. Though some of their products are. At least you know what to look for next time.

[BlackCats]

I know, I am still learning I suppose.
I did still take the tablets as I had paid for them and am not rolling in money at moment.

[absentmindedfan]

Sadly alot of the tablets are made from lactose. Luffa by Vogel (the tincture not the tablets) is what I use, and it's fab. You take in a little water and hold/swish it around your mouth for a few minutes, then swallow. It tastes awful but it works and its vegan.

[Marrers]

If you order from a homepathic pharmacy (like Helios or Ainsworths, you can order by phone or in person at a branch) you can ask for the lactose-free version - sugar pillules. That is what I always do, I have to get my own because my homeopath only keeps the lactose tablet version in her office.

[BlackCats]

I didn't even know you could find homeopathic pharmacies, they sound good. I keep relying on Holland and Barrett for things and maybe I should be going further afield and trying other shops.
I read that you shouldn't self diagnose with homeopathic remedies which I have been doing!

Marrers how often do you see your homeopath if you don't mind me asking? They seem quite expensive but I thought maybe if I went to one I could get a more overall treatment. Could you just go once for a consultation and then one after or is it a regular thing where you go a few times a year?

[Marrers]

Normally a bit more expensive for the first consultation as it take longer while they get a good history from you (make sure you take as much info as poss with you) but mine has recently gone up to £40 a session.

I went because I had a really bad leg infection and didn't want anti-biotics so I had to see her quite often at first. I still have a few persistant problems which are proving a challenge to treat so I'm going once every month or six weeks.

I don't know what happens if you just go for a general consult but it can be really irregular though, it varies depending on what you are being treated for. Hopefully others might have more experience to share with you!

[Yogini]

I do know of a vegan brand that makes remedies for various ailments including hayfever. It's called "Similasan". There's also a UK-based website, which has many supplements remedies that are vegan for all kinds of ailments. The website is www.genavita.com .

This stuff rocks. At least their hay fever stuff does.

[Pisces]

Do you mean Similasan?

[Yogini]

Yeah, sorry. Forgot to edit the quote.

[Pisces]

No worries, Yogini. I was just curious. I actually haven't needed anything for allergies, but it is good to hear testimonials about products like that.

[Hemlock]

I really ought to keep my opinions about homeopathy to myself - basically that I consider it personally to be as effective as coloured water.
I remember having a spirited argument with an elderly friend of mine about the uselessness of diluting the original medicine in that way, in fact I called it homeopathetic
It turned out her daughter is a renouned homeopathic practitioner and her entire family were converts - relations between us were somewhat strained after that
I am a great believer in herbal medicine though!

[BlackCats]

I suppose I am very openminded about every alternative therapy.

I used to work with a woman who was very into homeopathy but when I said I had tried hypnotherapy in the past and it had worked for me she said that she thought hypnosis was all nonsense.

I know that I have tried conventional medicines in the past but none of them "work" in the long term they just suppress the symptoms and alternative therapies work with addressing the root cause. This theory seems to fit with what I believe so I would be willing to try most things.

Hemlock, I have never tried herbal medicines.
(Does anyone know if there is something you can take for verrucas on your foot? I got them through swiming. I have tried conventional and homeopathic and they don't seem to work?)

[harpy]

For veruccas, have you tried banana skin?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/verrucas1.shtml

If you have/do, I'd be interested to hear if it works!

[Hemlock]

Try wart seed (Bruceae Javanica) available from some health food stores and herbalists everywhere - very good.
As a podiatrist I've tried cryotherapy, burning them out, surgically removing the m and they always come back. This treatment has quite a good success rate.

[BlackCats]

Thanks you two I will try those next. I will get those tablets and fish my banana skin out of the bin.

(I have tried cryotherapy which just seemed to be offering myself up for pain and I'm not really into that! Absolutely useless! I read on the internet that its not even supposed to be effective with verrucas so I don't know why my GP suggested it.)

[Hemlock]

Probably out of desperation - veruccas are a nightmare, I've had a wart for 20 years and tried everything on it - it won't go, it will go only when it's ready. I have had some success recently with chopping out veruccas by hand with a scalpel then occluding them with duck tape, plaster etc. You need to remove the verucca with a file every few days though and it can still take months to get rid of the big ones.
One guy I see has one 6x6 inches

[Frank]

As a podiatrist I've tried cryotherapy, burning them out, surgically removing the m and they always come back. This treatment has quite a good success rate.

I had two verrucae that would not go away - cryotherapy worked for me for removing mine.

I can tell you though that it was one of the the worst pains and experiences i've ever had. Having sensitive skin never helped I guess.

But looking back, it was worth it.

I'd only recommend it as a last resort