facts for argumentative and defensive omni's:
facts for argumentative and defensive omni's:
You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you.
Those are all great points. The problem is, many meat eaters do not want to listen to it and will become hostile. I had someone of a board related to a movie inform me if I was so worried about my impact on the earth I should just kill myself.
The best part is, this board stated it was ultra friendly and welcoming but not one moderator made a comment or removed the post. I left the board without responding to the post. I wouldn't waste my time.
At the risk of sounding cliche, the best way to win an argument with a meat-eater is to avoid it in the first place. Instead of practicing winning these types of arguments, I've thought of more ways to avoid being drawn into them in the first place. Most people have been eating meat for so long that they don't believe it is wrong and think it's an eccentric idea when they find out that you don't.
And alas I have arrived, like a whirlwind at a kindergarten picnic.
While there may be no reason to try to 'win' an argument with a meat eater, most of us meet them all the time, and I don't see a reason to try not to communicate with them.
But we don't need to justify being vegans - we simply avoid doing things we feel aren't right, because we think it's better for the animals (that's obvious), for the environment (nobody suggested that eating animals or support is better for the environment anyway), and for ourselves (what can be better than living as close to the way you want to live as possible)?
There's nothing more to justify than if you're on a bicycle ride, see a cat, and make a turn not to collide with it. Nobody would ask why we did NOT harm the cat, they would understand that we just followed our instinct.
If there's anyone who need to justify what they do, it's people who do stuff that harm others when they don't need to. We simply try our best to avoid that, and if someone finds this provoking, they have a problem, not us.
I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.
I just litterly had a fight with my dad as he walked into the living room as I was watching a documentary about the Sea Shepard. He stated how the whalers were assholes for killing a whale for food. I of course mentioned "whats the difference between a whale and a cow? They both feel pain" And then it started. It was very frustrating. I even whipped out my copy of "vegan freak".
It was very horrible...it just ended in yelling and both of us walking away.
Now, I can be prepared for next time
You kinda got the knife in with the opening one liner there Sgable and my guess is that you saw that in your dads eyes and went straight in for the kill?
Using the analogies that "you have to pick your battles carefuly in order to win a war" and t'one about "never corner a wounded animal" ...
That was probably a 'one-hit battle win' for you there. A definite wound, as it were?
May have been a bit of a mistake to wade straight into a freshly battle wounded daddy in the hopes of an immediate win of the war ..
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.
All done in the best possible taste ...
Q. Why are you a Vegan?
A. Because there is no real reason not to be.
Job done and move on.
At 63 it is much harder to confront that something you have believed to have been perfectly OK for a whole lifetime is, in fact, perfectly NOT ok Sgable.
Sometimes when my mum and dad kick off (they are in their 80's now) I kinda see them more as victims of the meat industry (particularly of its lies, half truths and fear instilling tactics) than as perpetrators of it.
I kinda figure that mebbe that when people are really old that they are kinda like 'obligate carnivores'. The habit energies of a long lifetime are so strong ... so much harder to embrace radical change as we enter old age ...
As the estimable LV said (loosely) "if compassion isn't there than neither is veganism in any meaningfull form".
Personally I agree with that (aspects of 'idiot compassion' aside) and am going to be giving much thought as to waht is the most compassionate way to explain veganism to people of 'senior' age.
All done in the best possible taste ...
Hmm, my mother stopped eating meat in her late 60s, shortly after I went lacto-veg (i.e. about 20 years ago). However I don't think she did really think it was OK before that but she hadn't got around to doing anything about it for various reasons. So there are probably a range of different attitudes among older people, same as any other demographic group.
Sgable did say his/her dad was oldfashioned Even so, as he is anti-whaling you may find he comes round to your point of view a bit more now that you have pointed out the similarity. I would just give it a bit of time to sink in.
a little humor can make a point without the pain: next time dad comes out with sympathies toward an animal...
"careful Dad, if you keep going in that direction, you'll be vegan!"
the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair
Recently I stated that my son had a zoo excursion and I would struggle supervising the children as I really don't like the zoo. A number of people replied really negatively stating things like ''what about the breeding programs'', ''how the hell do you tell if an animal is miserable or not'', ''they have plenty of room and are well looked after'' & ''it avoids extinction''. I replied that last time I went many of the animals were in tiny cages and I felt it was cruel to have them in conditions where they can't fly, run, or swim. I feel sad that people don't get my right to my opinion. I don't lecture other people on theirs.
^ People are dumb buying into the breeding programs and extinction thing. How many species that were extinct in nature have been successfully reintroduced by the zoo's? With the few hunderds or thousands of individuals of a species in captivity you most likely won't save them and even if you do you would have a weak gene pool. And why do they need to perform tricks for their keep like the dolphins, orca's and seals?
And what the hell are meerkats doing in the zoo's everywhere:
No species of mongoose is known to be threatened or endangered (The Living Desert Zoo & Gardens).
Meerkats are also known as Suricates or slender-tailed mongooses.
The Honolulu Zoo houses only male meerkats. This is to ensure no possibility of an escaped group to establish a breeding population. If this were to occur, they could seriously damage the natural ecosystem (Honolulu Zoo, 2001).
Zoo's just want the cute species that are being hyped in the media so they could draw in more visitors.
I know Coolcat. So nice to hear from someone who thinks so too
I've some what have converted my mom, although I do catch her doing non-vegan acts... it's better than nothing I guess. Other family/friend meat-eaters I can't seem to get through. I guess I'll just have to stick it out until they are having to pop pills for all their health issues. Then I can be like "who has none of these problems because they are vegan???" yeah that's right..."winnnnning!".
I've found that if a meat eater is truly stuck in their ways then there is no winning the argument with them. There are people out there who truly do not give a damn.
One of the things, I found, non-vegans ask for, in debates, is a source. All these facts are great, and I completely believe them, but is there a reliable source they come from that a non-vegan couldn't refute by simply showing a different study?
I can find studies in favour of a vegan diet but there are also studies against; so what can we really argue as fact?
Since there's no such thing as a (as in 'one') vegan diet, one can't argue against 'a vegan diet'. A vegan diet may consist of sugar and junkfood, which of course isn't healthy. I haven't seen any studies against a vegan diet', but none 'pro' a vegan diet either, because - again, there isn't one vegan diet. But there are many studies and articles discussing side effects of eating animal products. (Some of them are listed here: Animal products: health risks).I can find studies in favour of a vegan diet but there are also studies against; so what can we really argue as fact?
If scintific studies can confirm that consuming animal products in 'normal' amounts most likely will cause health problems at some point, we have a health argument against using aninal products (in normal amounts) right there.
But of course, if there would be no way to live on a vegan diet without health problems either, we wouldn't have an health argument pro living on a healthy, varied vegan diet either. Luckily, there are people who have spent a lot of time comparing studies of various kinds of vegan - and animal based - diets. The most know is ADA - the world's largest organization of food and health profesionals. (They'll change name to 'Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics' very soon).
Here's what they say (my emphasis):
* This part is IMHO not very well written. If a vegetarian/vegan diet can meet the requirements for all these nutrients, both in some ancient, organic past paradise and today, supplements wouldn't be needed. IMO they should emphasize that we don't live in such a world anymore, and that if one doesn't take B12 supplements, both vegans, lacto-vegetarians (and billions of meat eaters) will have either low B12 levels or become B12 deficient. Eating vegan/vegetarian has many benefits, but eaters usually have higher B12 levels than vegans and lacto-vegetarians. Too much B12 isn't good either (and is asssoicated with certain serious health problems), but that doesn't mean that low B12 is good.It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.
A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients.*
An evidence-based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs.
With some Googling you'll find their full report - a long, detailed pdf with many refrences to relevant studies.
The main misunderstandings - among nonvegans - seem to be that...
1) humans can't get enough protein or B12 without eating animals (animals which only eat plants)
2) if a vegan is found to be ill or lacking in certain nutrients, it's because he is a vegan, but if a non-vegan becomes ill or lack certain nutrients, it's not because of his diet, he's just ill or need some vitamins.
They often ignore deficiencies in one or more nutrients is the rule, not the exception among non-vegans.
The main misunderstanding among some vegans seem to be that...
a) B12 doesn't come from animals (but from bacteria), and we can IMO with almost 100% certainty know that B12 would be freely available in a 'natural', non-sterilized world with only organic food, healthy soil, fresh/local food, non-chlorinated water etc. (<--- correct)
b) We never need to take (B12 or other) supplements, and that the talk about need to take B12 for vegans is only propaganda from anti-vegan activists. (<--- wrong)
Vegans may get deficienies as well, and B12 is the nutrient to pay most attention to. It doesn't help us that nonvegans generally are deficient in many nutrients, or have B12 deficiencies (9%) - or low B12 levels (39%).
So... in short, it's not possible to compare 'a' vegan diet with 'a' non-vegan diet. One can live on either and may a long life without any serious health problems. This is probably easier or a vegan, or for one with a very low intake of animal products: all the problems associated with a normal consumption of meat, eggs and dairy (cancer, diabetes, heart disease etc) suggests that animal products in anything but small amounts represents a health risk. An animal free diet is healthy, as long as one eats well - and take supplements when/if needed.
If one doesn't eat enough, doesn't eat healthy and varied food, or ignore the need for supplements when they are needed, NO eating 'plans' are healthy.
I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.
Airalien have you read The China Study it's well worth a read. It gives you lots of information and scientific facts about why a vegan diet is the best diet for health.
Meat eaters are meat eaters cause they don't think the same.
And unless they find out for themselves they will never know. I was a meat eater and most of us were. I bet the majority of us became vegans because we came to a realisation, or an epiphany, not because someone told us, whether it was you saw a movie, or all of a sudden were repulsed by animal products, or you saw animals being slaughtered.
It wasn't cause a vegan rambled off quotes or statistics or nutrition information.
Don't get angry at meat eaters, if they had the same thought process as us they wouldn't do it. But they don't, and you cant change them, they must change themselves.
I don't bother to try change them....
and what do i say when they give me grief, well I'm lucky cause I'm 6'3 and work out, so i just say, "well I'm still physically superior to you" and "I've got enough strength to pin you down, and *expletive* you"... haha, only to other guys though, I'm not actually serious.
My brother in law came out with an infuriating argument.
He said by not eating meat I am reducing the number of animals being born, and who am I to decide whether an animal should be born or not?
My response of who are you to decide it should die for your food, provoked him to say, but at least they get to be alive for a while... who am I to decide they shouldnt be born at all.
ARGH!!! So frustrating!
Its just such a stupid thing to say.
He does realize that the meat industry decides how many animals are born by slaughtering and selling those animals right?
After being vegan for 1 week, my friend told me she was reducing it to 4 days a week, as she realised the meat industry provides thousands of humans with jobs they would not have otherwise, and she wouldn't be where she was if her grandfather was not a butcher. She was putting 'human welfare' above 'animal welfare' in a very superior and annoying way. I struggled to think of a response on the spot, which probably just confirmed her view even more. FRUSTRATING. What would everyone else say to this?
It sounds to me like she is making excuses to justify her eating meat.
True, but infuriating! As if I'm doing a bad thing by putting animals first! Pfft..
Humans can be bad and do terrible things, there are no 'bad' animals. They should come first!
I wouldnt know how to respond to this either, other than to say that my sympathies lie with the animals being slaughtered rather than the worker without a job.
Her grandfathers job should have no impact on her beliefs, nor should the fact some people she doesnt know might lose a job (which they won't because the industry is so huge!). Its just an excuse.
Why did she decide to be vegan in the first place?
She said she was interested by what I had told her, which was encouraging. But then after a week (I think she was struggling) she decided to do half and half. She doesn't eat that much meat anyway, so I suppose it is a step in the right direction! She does see the reasons behind it I think she just uses this 'human welfare' think to justify her cravings for milk and cheese 3 days of the week...
A step in the right direction but so easy to take a step back too.
I suppose all you can do is be a good friend and offer advice and encouragement whenever required.
I hear that the meat industry jobs are some of the worst, perhaps look that up and point that out.
If more people stopped eating meat, then more jobs would be created in veg production. Farm workers to pick and pack the products and also jobs turning them into other foods like veggie burgers, seiten, tofu etc. Much nicer work too, can't think of any job worse than working in a slaughterhouse.
My response would be similar to Mymblesdaughter's. There are always going to be jobs in the food industry. I don't know, but I suspect vegetable growing, especially organic, is probably more labour-intensive than meat production.
If she thinks giving up meat would be disrespectful in some way to her grandfather then that's a personal thing, but not all that rational I don't think. It would be like having to have a thatched roof because one of your ancestors worked as a thatcher
Thanks for the advice folks
I checked out the link at the top of the thread, and think I will quote this next time that argument crops up (as well as others you have given me):
The Ethical ArgumentNumber of animals killed for meat per hour in the U.S.: 660,000
Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job-injury in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
So next time I get challenged, I'll have response!
I can't even fathom foregoing a vegan lifestyle because of the possibility of "so many people" losing jobs. Should we also continue to frequent and support fast food joints like Kentucky Fried Chicken because if we didn't people would lose their jobs?
Isn't that the beauty of a free market economy? Consumer choices decide which industries will be profitable. If the meat industry isn't profitable, other industries will flourish and jobs become available elsewhere. (If only the government would refrain from subsidizing the meat industry, perhaps our economy would be allowed to control itself better!)
Hmmm, how do I respond to this one? Someone replied to me while we were discussing cheese on toast on another forum of the non-vegan variety..... and I said I'd make myself a vegan one tonight, he saidHow can cheese be vegan?,its an animal byproduct! Or is it like quorn? fake not real conterfit etc ./shudders
Daffodil, one of my Facebook friends posted a horrible picture of calves' stomachs ready to be used for rennet. If you think it would help pm your email address and I can send it to you
I found a website that offers good answers to questions and comments from others on veganism/vegetarianism:
That looks good Robin - I particularly like the bit where the questions go "You're a vegetarian but you wear leather. You're a hypocrite." and then, "You don't even wear leather? You're an extremist." Quite true to life
good answers, thanks guys love the link too
I went to two different chiropractors last Fall after being bumped by a mini van while riding my bike (her fault not mine as she pulled out of a driveway without looking first). I had low back pain as a result. The first chiropractor thought I was probably deficient in protein (just from telling him I was vegan). I left his practice after two visits as I was not happy with him. The second guy was even worse. He called my veganism extreme. This is a guy that supposedly promotes alternative medicine and thinks diet is a huge key to health. He literally told me I was too extreme and he kept pushing the importance of fish oil supplements. Ugh. I left there after he cracked my upper back when I explicitly told him I would not allow any back cracking. My upper back by the way was fine so why he decided to do that is beyond me. I walked out of the office right after he did that. He left me in more pain than when I went in. I will never go to a chiropractor again. "Alternative" doctors can be just as ignorant and close minded about veganism as mainstream ones.