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Thread: Vaccinations

  1. #1
    wuggy
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    Exclamation Vaccinations

    I was wondering whether other Vegans decide to have their children and/or pets - and themselves(!) vaccinated?
    Obviously the vaccines are produced by large pharmaceutical companies, tested on animals and contain animal ingredients. Many also think they pose a health threat.
    I had my son vaccinated, but later than the usual times, when he was a bit older than normally recommended. I insisted that he did not have the 'live' whooping cough vaccine - my doctor had to send off to France for the other type.
    I was bullied into having him vaccinated as neither the local playgroups or schools were happy to take him without. He had a severe reaction to his MMR jab, and it has set up a type of very itchy excema on his arm which, apparently, will never go now. My doctor says this is 'very rare', but if I could go back, I would have refused the vaccinations.
    What do you think?

  2. #2
    Melissa assilembob's Avatar
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    Here, they can not be in school period without vaccinations. I am very against this, but as a teacher...I have to "support" and make sure I am keeping the kids without them out of school at all costs. We had a huge staff meeting this morning about it.
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  3. #3
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    I was forced to get an MMR vacine when I was in college. I had already gotten it as a child but I could not prove that I had gotten the last one. I was almost done with school too, so it was kind of pointless. I was a vegan and aware that the vaccines were made from eggs but I got a hepatitis B vaccine also. I did this because I was involved in a sport where sometimes I would have cuts on my body and have possible contact with other people's blood. I figured since I'm being forced to get these shots why not get one more. I resented being forced to get them, though. What can you do?

  4. #4
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure my parents had me vaccinated against certain sicknesses, as a child. I remember being vaccinated against rubella and tetnus. However, as an adult, I have chosen not to be vaccinated against anything. I don't really know if this is a good decision or not. I once heard that the vaccinations are actually made up of part of the disease or sickness itself.....so that kind of turned me off.

    I can see this could be a difficult issue when it comes to children though. You only want what's best for them - so I imagine there are plenty of pros and cons to weigh up.

    Also, what about when travelling to certain countries where certain diseases are very prevelant. Doctors and governments always recommend being vaccinated before travelling to these places. If you choose not to be vaccinated, they say it's likely you will catch the disease and risk death. I guess that's something else to think about before travelling.

  5. #5
    Goddess foxytina_69's Avatar
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    i was vaccinated when i was a baby with sumthing, i forget what, but i swelled up and had a very bad reaction so my doctor said to not let me get anymore vaccinations. i havent had any for anything since, except the flu (i had to get that one, my mother was dying and none of us could get the flu around her)
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  6. #6
    USDA Grade E negavert's Avatar
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    I won't get flu shots; the shots are made from last year's strain, which is pointless because influenza mutates each year. They try and guess how it will mutate but they can't be right much of the time; I've heard of whole batches that weren't effective at all. Plus you end up sick from it and statistics show that a certain percentage die from it. I'd rather not take the chance. I'd rather pump my body full of vitamin C, garlic, zinc, and other immune boosters during flu season.
    "I intend to live forever. So far, so good."

  7. #7
    Goddess foxytina_69's Avatar
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    hmm usually they are pretty effective, and ive never seen anyone get sick from them unless their immune system was bad. they do have egg tho therefor i wont get them anymore.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  8. #8
    cedartree cedarblue's Avatar
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    i had my daughter immunised with all the 'recommended' jabs at the appropriate ages.....at the time i was not vegan and did not really understand the full implications of what being immunised, not having the jabs, their content etc, meant. also i must say that health visitors and doctors can use very immotive language and this can be very confusing and make you feel bad when you have babies/small children to consider.

    would i still have had her immunised now, having more info??
    to be honest i really dont know, i would have to take my husbands point of view into account as well and, as he isnt vegan, may be different to mine.

    this can be a tricky situ for some folk


    - also my husband has yearly flu jabs as he has asthma (as does daughter) and was very ill about 10yrs ago with bronchitis following a chest infection from a bout of flu - its his health so his decision, but i would not like to see him ill like that again. i encourage him to take vit c and echinacea over the winter too.

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    Goddess foxytina_69's Avatar
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    i too have asthma and am supposed to get flu shots. (ive almost died several times from having asthma and getting sick like that) when i dont, i get very ill but im interested to see how it will turn out this winter (i wasnt vegan last winter) im sure my immune system is much higher now tho
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

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    Hmm... I don't know about this one guys. As much as I hate using anything animal derived... I think we need to get vaccinated. If you don't get vaccinated in a population in which almost everyone else got vaccinated, chances are you won't catch the disease because you won't have anyone to catch it from. But if everyone decided not to get vaccinated... Think about it, in densely populated areas such as the cities or suburbs... Epidemics a la plague come to mind.

  11. #11
    wuggy
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    Depends whether you beleive that vaccines are really effective, I suppose! I saw a dog die of Parvo once - he'd been fully vaccinated.
    Maybe it is better sanitation, etc, that has wiped out a lot of disease?

  12. #12
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    I don't have any children but I get the cats done as (after some discussion with my vet, who I trust) I think it probably does reduce the chance of nasty diseases spreading through the population, even though there are no guarantees that a particular cat will be immune.

    No-one has tried to immunise me against anything for decades Apart from cholera etc if you're going somewhere exotic, which I had.

  13. #13
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    When I was at school at 14 everyone had their vaccines, My mum wouldn't let me so I went without (along with about 5 others) lots of my friends were off sick for the next few days, but this is the norm apparently.
    I was reading an article the other day about vaccines in Australia it was saying that they aren't tested before they are given because the government doesn't fund it. and only between 1-10% of side affects and sicknesses that occur from the vaccines are ever reported.
    I was reading up on this because my 1year old niece had just been jabbed and she has now got a really bad cold/flu and the doctors said that it is normal for babies to get sick when they get their vaccines. I don't really understand why this should be. It is all very tricky, not many people including myself know much about vaccines.

  14. #14
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    I just stumbled across a piece on vaccination on www.vegans.free-online.co.uk . Theres a few unpleasent pics though, sorry, and further links.

  15. #15
    tails4wagging
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    Default What does folk think about vaccinations,

    on their children?.
    My vegan friend is staunchly against it and quite understandable, but as I have said I was a paediatric nurse for many years and therefore I have seen what such childhood diseases can do such as measles encephalitis, a severe whooping cough on a baby that nearly died and a child born blind and deaf because a mother had german measles when pregnant.

    So I am in a quandary, her child is vulnerable to these diseases and I do not know the answer. If it was my child and have seen these outcomes I am afraid I would have to give in and have my child vaccinated against these illnesses. Not the MMR though but single vaccines.
    Last edited by Korn; Oct 28th, 2004 at 11:41 AM. Reason: This was the first post in another thread on the same subject

  16. #16
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    My mother used to be a medical journalist, and my father was an epidemiologist (first person to link high blood pressure to diet). Growing up in this environment made me be very much for vaccinations, and that has stayed with me. Your friend should ask the doctor several times about at least vegetarian alternatives. But she has to consider whether she will risk her child's life for her beliefs. Some people do; I won't. I will happily risk my own life, but I don't feel I have the right to risk the life of someone under my protection.

    Some will also claim that vaccinations are more dangerous than not being vaccinated, but I am not (yet?) convinced.
    No Gods, No Masters.

  17. #17
    tails4wagging
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    Just seen these sites. If I had'nt nursed children with severe raections to the diseases, I would totally agree, but although a staunch Ar campaigner, I would have my child vaccinated if I had one. To see a child severly mentally impaired due to having measles is a life time of regret or seeing a newborn baby fighting for breath and ending up on a ventilator through having whooping cough, or a child with luekemia with chicken pox (which can be fatal to them) you never forget.

    I think it is fine and admirable to hold strong beliefs against vaccinations but if there is no alternative what should one do?

    My friends Doctor, has no time for her and her ideals, yet alone being open to alternative ideas!!.

  18. #18
    jhodgski
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    Default Tetanus

    I imagine tetanus jabs are tested on animals, but was just wondering how many people on here have them?

    My son (aged 5) hasn't had any yet, and I just wondered what other people thought to it?

    And does anyone know if you're supposed to have them regularly, or are they only required after you have a particularly bad graze/cut?

    Cheers,
    James

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Tetanus

    Hi jhodhski

    they give kids tetanus vaccinations as part of the childhood vaccination programme. I should think that not only are they tested on animals, they most probably are produced from animal ingredients, you could check by looking in Martindale's Pharmacopeia in your local library. Unfortunately last time I looked, you had to pay to access any info via the Martindale's website.

    They also give anti-tetanus jabs for cuts at A&E.

    My kids are 20, 17 and 12 and they're all life vegans. They haven't been vaccinated against anything. I was concerned about this whole issue and I spoke to Bill Bingham of Animal Aid, who did an impressive study published by NAVS (when my eldest child was little), about vaccines. He said that the best thing to do is wash any wounds very carefully with soap and water. The main danger from tetanus comes with deep, puncture type wounds, because the tetanus bacteria can only survive and thrive in anaerobic conditions, so it's much less likely to be a problem with surface wounds which are exposed to the air and can be thoroughly cleansed.

    Also, because tetanus is a bacteria, not a virus, it can be killed by treatment with antibiotics, which were not developed through vivisection, unlike vaccines, although they're probably also tested on animals. So if I was concerned that tetanus might be a problem, I'd go to my GP and ask for antibiotics, rather than the tetanus jab. The symptoms of tetanus are caused by toxins produced by the metabolic processes of the tetanus bacteria, and can take up to six weeks to manifest, by which time it may be too late for treatment. Apparently also the early symptoms can be very similar to a common cold...before the lockjaw sets in.

    Tetanus is much less of a problem nowadays, as horses are no longer the main form of transport, so the roads aren't covered in manure anymore (horse manure being the main vector for tetanus, although it can also enter wounds from ordinary soil), but if you live where there are lots of horses and your child may suffer cuts which could become infected from their manure, it's a harder decision, I should imagine.

    So far my kids have been perfectly OK, despite a couple of scary incidents, like when my oldest kid got a deep puncture wound from treading on a nail on a demolition site. The main thing is to make sure they understand their unvaccinated status, so they know how to deal with any wounds and they can inform doctors if they need to.
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    Default Re: Are tetanus jabs vegan?

    Oh lordy.

    Well, tetanus is a bacteria, and so like many vaccines works on the principle or neutralised or killed pathogens, so usually fine.
    However, if you cut yourself and have a tetanus shot, that contains tetanus immune globulin (TIG), and to be honest, I don't know what kind of globulin that is. Although, a lot of prophylaxis medication comes from bovine sources.
    So maybe in this case prevention is better than cure?


    Basically though, seeing as tetanus can be fatal, even if it wasn't vegan, it's one of those things a lot of people would bend on, especially for their children.
    I had anti - D, knowing full well it came from a cow, but the other option was a large chance my baby would die in the womb.

  21. #21
    tails4wagging
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    Default Re: Tetanus

    Difficult this one. As a paed nurse for a few years or so, I have seen some nasty cases of such as whooping cough in very young babies that had to be on a ventilator (breathing machine) and I have nursed a child who is blind and deaf through contracting german measles (rubella) from mum whilst in the womb. I have also nursed children that have become brain damaged through measles encephalitis.

    Although I am totally against vivisection and animal products in medication as a vegan, I would have to have my children (if I had any!!) vaccinated. Knowing what I know I would not take the risk putting my ethics before safety of children, its just not worth the risk.

    Those who have never had their child vaccinated and come through it without a scratch are dammed lucky.

    I just wish there was an alternative.

  22. #22
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tetanus

    I wasn't up to date with the tetanus jabs but I did get one after sustaining a dog-walking injury (cut myself on her collar) as the nurse thought a deep wound in contact with doggy objects might carry a risk of tetanus. I'm afraid I didn't think about whether it was vegan or not in the circs.

    If you are thinking of skipping it unless it's needed, I imagine you would be fairly safe, as it is easy enough to get one if and when you get a cut etc - just long as you're not planning plan any holidays away from immunisation facities.

    According to this you may have immunity for life if you received more than a certain number of jabs in childhood: http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/23068839/

  23. #23
    John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are tetanus jabs vegan?

    Probably not. The vaccines which I have received were grown within chicken eggs. Did they ask you if you are allergic to eggs? BTW, there is a "vaccines" thread.

  24. #24
    John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are tetanus jabs vegan?

    That's it.

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    Default Re: Vaccinations - yes or no?

    I have had vaccines... when I was a child and 3 or 4 years ago there was some vaccination in the Netherlands against something... I hadn't thought much about it... but now I am a vegan I read some things about vaccination and I read that is dangerous to have vaccins because viruses can become resistent against the vaccins and can transform in much dangerous forms. There are some sites about vaccins and why not to have it... also I don't trust medicines/vaccins anymore because they are animal tested. Also I don't want to have vaccins because they use animals to grow the vaccins on...

    When I have children I think I will not give them vaccinations. Maybe only when there are no animals used to make them... but that will not happen I think..
    And it is also a good reason not to put them in danger... I heard that some children die because of serious side effects of vaccination.

  26. #26

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    Default Re: Vaccinations - yes or no?

    We have had our child vaccinated, as like Tails, I've seen what happens when you don't.
    Also, working with learning disabilities, I have also seen people who were perfectly normal until they had vaccinations as children, and suffered severe reactions. It did scare me and make me question vaccinations a lot, but I saw more children who'd suffered from the diseases, and ended up with permanent disabilities, than I saw children who'd had reactions. You'd be amazed how many of the people in group homes had meningitis, measles, etc as children, and it left them permanently brain damaged.

    I myself am well and truly pumped full of vaccinations, I even had the multi-injection abdominal rabies jab years and years ago.
    Nowadays my immune status is checked regularly as my job exposes me to all sorts of diseases.
    NHS hospitals won't employ you without immune status, but I once knew an agency HCA who caught hepatitis A, and it's just not worth it.

    The problem is, if everyone stops vaccinating their children you will see a return of such things a polio, and we have already seen the return of TB.
    There was a case of Diptheria a while back, which was luckily caught in time. It used to be a HUGE killer of children, and all but disappeared. We really don't want it back.

    The problem is you can't go back.
    Once the child, or you, has the disease, it's too late to vaccinate, and the drugs used to try and save you or your child, will again be non-vegan and animal tested.

    This to me is similar to the plane crash argument, would you eat meat is it was a survival situation.
    Sometimes the plane crash is illness and the meat is drugs. If you'd rather die than use an animal tested drug, that's up to you, but I don't see the gain. No animals will be saved.

  27. #27

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    Wink Re: Vaccinations

    It is good to consider what a vaccination actually is. A vaccination is a minor infection with a pathogen in order to induce the body to create antibodies to fight it. Infect the organism in order to cure it.

    This is just another backward-thinking therapy of allopathy, as in taking serotonin-reuptake inhibitors like Zoloft or Prozac in order to prevent the brain from reabsorbing serotonin, the body's natural tranquilizer, in an effort to improve mood. That's their logic.

    But if one eats foods high in tryptophan, the brain will naturally produce more serotonin. That is why tryptophan is now a controlled substance. Vegans can beat that by eating plenty of bananas and raw sunflower seeds, which are high in tryptophan. Or you can find 5-HTP, a naturally derived substance from a plant, and get the same effects. But I digress.

    Much better to use a preventative medicine: Good diet, good supplements, plenty of exercise, fresh air, sunshine, and rest. Good hydration is important too.

    Fresh garlic is an excellent antibiotic and tonic. I have used colloidal silver and seen good results. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has classified it as a drug, so I cannot out-and-out recommend it. That would be practicing medicine without a license, ya see. Big pharma executives hate colloidal silver and health supplements. Hence CODEX ALIMENTARIUS which threatens the health rights of everyone.

  28. #28
    sugarmouse
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    i haea been vaccinated with things when i was young and had no say-as i got older and when i went to colleege i didnt get anyof the jabs reccomended- the 'hippy'in me does not agree with it, although to be perfectly honest i know very little about vaccinations and what risks i am taking by not having them.obviously it isnt natural...but then we do not live in an ideal world.i feel i am just not very sensible when it comes to things like this!
    i dont have kids and wont..i guess this is a moral dliemma for those who do.i think if i did, imay get them done. i would want to protect them in the best way i could, and when they were old enough, it would be their own choice.but as i said i am totally uneducated in this area!

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Tetanus

    Quote tails4wagging
    Although I am totally against vivisection and animal products in medication as a vegan, I would have to have my children (if I had any!!) vaccinated. Knowing what I know I would not take the risk putting my ethics before safety of children, its just not worth the risk.

    Those who have never had their child vaccinated and come through it without a scratch are dammed lucky.

    I just wish there was an alternative.

    Well I looked into the whole vaccination issue very carefully before deciding what to do. I read a very informative book called 'The Role of Medicine' by Dr Thomas McKeown (unfortunately it seems to be out of print now). It's a study of infectious diseases over time, and it demonstrates that rates of all the diseases for which vaccinations are available were falling fast before the vaccinations were even introduced, mainly due to increased awareness and hygienic measures, such as plumbing, diet and clean water supply. It seems that plumbers have safeguarded the health of the nation at least as much as doctors.

    I checked in Martindale's Pharmacopeia and found that at the time my eldest child was supposed to be immunised, ALL the polio cases in this country (which were in single figures at that time) were actually caused by the vaccine itself.

    If I had ever thought that vaccinations were absolutely necessary to protect my children's health, I would definitely have had them vaccinated. Now they're old enough to decide for themselves.

    Actually, to me the whole notion of deliberately introducing disease organisms into babies' systems seems dodgy, although I can see how they probably help in the short term in situations where overcrowding, insanitary conditions and inadequate diet leave children vulnerable. Surely in the long term, it's better to eliminate the conditions in which diseases thrive, to ensure the overall health of the population?
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    Default Re: Tetanus

    Quote kokopelli
    Actually, to me the whole notion of deliberately introducing disease organisms into babies' systems seems dodgy, although I can see how they probably help in the short term in situations where overcrowding, insanitary conditions and inadequate diet leave children vulnerable. Surely in the long term, it's better to eliminate the conditions in which diseases thrive, to ensure the overall health of the population?

    But that's how we acquire our immuntiy to everything. The body needs a taste of something, even if means, like in the case of many chicken pox situations, having the illness itself.

    One thing I do agree with is giving it to babies, I think they are a little young, and although reactions are incredibly rare, I don't see any real harm now there is a limited number of these diseases to vaccinating after one year of age. The un-vaccinated children I have seen die, have always been bigger, toddlers and up.

    The bigger issue with vaccinations is the fact that the more diseases we beat, the more appear or mutate. We will never be disease free, no matter how clean and healthy the world is. Nature needs a culling method, so really, is there any point?
    Of course there is to a limit, and people will always want to prevent the prevenable, but the fact is no matter how healthy and safe you think you are, you're not. There'll always be something new, and for a good long while, incurable, lurking in the pipeline.

    The conditions which cause many diseases in the western world aren't really realted to conditions we can change anymore.
    I've seen a child die due to a barbed wire cut. She had tetanus, and died in her sleep, so no one was there to see the muscle spasms, and her parents just thought she had flu. I've seen countless children die of meningits, and again, the TB that's resurfacing, a lot of it has been communicated.

    I wish we didn't have to vaccinate, I wish it wasn't an issue, but these days in my new capacity, day in day out I deal with the corpses of the diseased, and when it was preventable or treatable, it's sickening, especially the children.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I guess it's an issue everyone has to decide on for themselves. It isn't easy.

    Anyway, I found "The Role of Medicine' on US Amazon, here's a quote from a review by Malcolm Fraser:

    ... luckily I took and kept lots of notes. This is an excellent book, and with the data then available to him, McKeown makes a clear and compelling case. Replying to Julie Masis' point, one example did illustrate a before-and-after scenario. In whooping cough the death-rate declined from over 1400 per million children in the 1860's to less than 100 in 1950/51 when immunization became available. On the accompanying graph in the book, there was even a slight rise in the death-rate during the winter of 1950-51, after which the graph resumed its previous trend. The introduction of vaccination did not even speed up the decline in the disease.
    In measles, the death-rate per million children had already declined from its peaks of over 1200 in the 1860's and around 1890, to virtually nil in 1970, before immunization was introduced.

    If paying consumers are making informed choices, then there is no problem. If medical, educational and social behaviors are being determined by "myths and dreams" it may help to look at facts.

    I have not seen a better book on this subject since its publication 25 years ago, nor adequate refutation of its central thesis. If further data exist to modify McKeown's views, let's hope an equally clear and succinct writer presents it for us.
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I am partly vaccinated, I had the vaccination they has putted in my when I was a child, but not all the teen and adult vaccinations. But I am not sure what I have, and what I don’t have, and that irritates me a bit.

    I know I don’t have the second MMR (measles/mumps/rubella), but I had the one when I was a child.

    The scary thing about not be immune fore the rubella is that if a woman gets rubella when she is pregnant, it might effect the child.

    Rubella is as far as I know not dangerous fore the adult, and I see no reason fore boys/men to get that shot. But if I ever has a daughter, I will try to get her infected whit rubella, instead of getting the shot. If that is not possible, maybe the rubella shot will be considered.

    Mumps is as far as I know not dangerous fore a young boy ore a girl/woman at any age, but can make a boy that have reached puberty sterile. So I can’t see the reason fore a girl to have this shot? But fore a boy, maybe, if it is impossible to get him immune more naturally.

    Measles is the only disease in the MMR I can understand to put in a child, no matter gender. But I am not sure what we will chose when (or if) that time comes.

    So to try to conclude here:

    I don’t think I want a future child to be fully vaccinated, but I am a bit unsure about the measles, so I hope that it is possible to get only the measles shot, and not the whole MMR in one shot. I think that is one of the reasons fore that the many problems connected to the vaccination, it is tree shots in one, and makes a huge shock fore the small body. To give a 15 months old child the whole MMR in their body at once is NOT an option I would accept. But on the other hand, you have one other shot (DTP-polio-Hib) that is 5 diseases in one, that shot is given when the child is 3 - 5 AND 11/12 months. So 3 huge shots in the first year. I am not sure how OK that is either. But I haven’t heard so much about serious problems about that vaccination compared to the MMR?
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    Default Re: Tetanus

    Quote Nivvie
    But that's how we acquire our immunity to everything. . .
    Isn't that just the theory behind it, though?

    Nivvie, with great respect for your professional experience, I will say, vaccines may do what they are intended to do in most instances, but surely there must be a better way, because they have the potential to and do in some cases cause the diseases they were given to prevent. This M.D. says so, anyway.
    http://www.mercola.com/article/vacci...ng_illness.htm

    There are links at the bottom left of this web page article to other articles about the ill effects of vaccination.

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    Default Re: Tetanus

    It's a known fact that for the body to build an immunity it has to learn to make the correct antibodies it has to 'meet' the pathogen.

    I agree vaccinations aren't nice, and yes, they can give you disease, but that's a different issue.
    For example, the flu vaccine is a big culprit for this, but that's due to the level of health before the jab. All the cases I've known of people getting flu from the jab involves people who shouldn't have been given it anyway. Even a killed pathogen can cause a disease if the immune system is not strong enough to treat it properly.

    My wish for vaccines is that the health of the patent is checked properly first, that they are not given to tiny babies, and that there is more post-jab monitoring.
    For example, some health visitors ask parents to wait with their children in the waiting room for half an hour after the jabs, as if there is likely to be a serious, brain damaging injury, the child will cry non stop. Most babies cry at first, but it subsides after ten minutes of so. If a baby is still upset past the half hour, they are transfered to hospital, and usually there is nothing wrong, but if there is, the damage can be limited. These precaustions should be universal.

    I don't like jabs or anything that's unnatural and seems unnecessary, but like I said, preventable child death is very upsetting.
    When I was a baby there was a big whooping cough scare, and it was the one disease my mother decided against, and unsurprisingly, there was then a big rise in whooping cough and many children, including myself, had whooping cough, and many died.
    The fact remains million and millions of children and adults are vaccinated every day, and the percentage of those that have reactions is tiny. There is always going to be a risk in medicine, a chance of dying on the operating table, of having an adverse effect to any medication. It's only natural that that risk is in vaccinations as well.

    If there was a bettter, proven way to mass-irradicate disease from the world, I'd be the first in line.

  35. #35

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    Default Re: Tetanus

    Quote Nivvie
    . . . If there was a bettter, proven way to mass-irradicate disease from the world, I'd be the first in line.
    Thanks Nivvie. We'll just hope something better comes along.

  36. #36
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    Default Re: Tetanus

    Quote Nivvie
    When I was a baby there was a big whooping cough scare, and it was the one disease my mother decided against, and unsurprisingly, there was then a big rise in whooping cough and many children, including myself, had whooping cough, and many died.

    If there was a bettter, proven way to mass-irradicate disease from the world, I'd be the first in line.
    The question remains, though, is it true to say that vaccinations are what caused the decline in deaths from infectious diseases?

    According to the research by Thomas McKeown, which I quoted above, the death rates had ALREADY fallen dramatically before the introduction of vaccines, due to hygienic measures.

    Possibly the children who experience severe adverse effects from the vaccines are the same ones who would have succumbed to the disease naturally, maybe because of pre-existing general ill-health.

    My personal opinion is that the best way to eradicate disease is to eradicate the causes of disease, such as poverty, bad housing, poor diet, contaminated drinking water, ignorance, war etc. But maybe vaccination is the best the state can do right now. After all, war, industrial food and pharmaceutical production are 'good' for the economy, due to the perverted way GNP is calculated.

    I live in a dairy farming area, where TB outbreaks amongst their herds are a constant worry for farmers. But if you saw the crowded, unsanitary conditions the physically over-stressed cows live in, you'd understand why. To a large extent, the same scenario holds true for people, which is why infectious diseases claim most victims in war-time situations such as refugee camps. Vaccination is a poor substitute for peace, fairness and hygiene.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
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    Default Re: Tetanus

    Quote kokopelli
    The question remains, though, is it true to say that vaccinations are what caused the decline in deaths from infectious diseases?

    According to the research by Thomas McKeown, which I quoted above, the death rates had ALREADY fallen dramatically before the introduction of vaccines, due to hygienic measures.
    But that's the thing, whooping cough had all but disappeared, but with the lack of vaccination, soon started up again.

    My other hope is that many of these diseases will go the way of small pox, the first vaccinated disease. It was a HUGE global killer, and now is so rare it's not necessary to vaccinate against it anymore. At the time of Edward Jenner's discovery, one in three Londoners died of smallpox. Now the only reason to keep stocks is due to the fear of biological weapons

    If we could just get sufficient 'clear' generations behind us, vaccination won't be necessary.

    But still SARS, MRSA, bird flu....it's never gonna end.
    It seems the only way to safely protect yourself from disease is to live disconnected from people. Nomadic Siberian Reindeer herders never catch anything.

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Tetanus

    Quote Nivvie
    But that's the thing, whooping cough had all but disappeared, but with the lack of vaccination, soon started up again.

    My other hope is that many of these diseases will go the way of small pox, the first vaccinated disease. It was a HUGE global killer, and now is so rare it's not necessary to vaccinate against it anymore. At the time of Edward Jenner's discovery, one in three Londoners died of smallpox. Now the only reason to keep stocks is due to the fear of biological weapons

    If we could just get sufficient 'clear' generations behind us, vaccination won't be necessary.

    But still SARS, MRSA, bird flu....it's never gonna end.
    It seems the only way to safely protect yourself from disease is to live disconnected from people. Nomadic Siberian Reindeer herders never catch anything.
    But what about this statistic:

    'In whooping cough the death-rate declined from over 1400 per million children in the 1860's to less than 100 in 1950/51 when immunization became available.'

    ...which was due to better living conditions. All those diseases you mention are proliferating due to lack of hygiene, and ultimately hygienic measures and education are the best way to prevent the spread of diseases, circumventing the necessity for invasive procedures.

    Obviously it wouldn't be feasible or desirable for everyone to live disconnected lives, but there must be a happy medium between isolation and overcrowding.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
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    Default Re: Tetanus

    But the worry will always be communication.
    We have people arriving daily in the coutry and most cases of TB have been due to immigrants. The same goes with many of the cases of 'dead' diseases seen.
    Although the chances are small, and it would be ideal for the world to be a clean, free place to live without overcrowding, it's just that, an ideal.

    I truly hope it happens one day, for everyone's sake, but then, as always, the superbugs rise above.

    I honestly think the whole world of medicine needs a MAJOR overhaul, and I could write pages on what's wrong today, but I'll just bore everyone.

  40. #40
    tails4wagging
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    believe me you only to have to see one very young baby with whooping cough on a life support machine and you would have your child vaccinated. The baby still tries to cough and has to be sedated. Not a easy thing to see. because children are not vaccinated against it they can give it to the very young vulnerable babies.

  41. #41
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Nivvie, I agree about the world of medicine needing a major overhaul, and it's great to know there are people like you working on the inside.

    Tails, my kids got through childhood OK, if they ever did catch an infectious disease, I would certainly ensure they were kept away from vulnerable people. They also understand this issue very well, because we've had relatives with compromised immunity.

    But don't you think it's interesting that whooping cough declined so markedly before vaccination was introduced? It does imply that vaccination is not the major factor in disease control in this instance. It also makes me wonder to what extent the efficacy of the vaccination programme has been hyped by government. Also, how do you know whether a child who contracts a severe case of whooping cough, would not also be one of the unlucky ones who react badly to the vaccine?

    I agree the 'ideal world' is only an ideal, but it's an ideal worth working towards, and ultimately the best way to deal with disease generation and spread.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
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  42. #42
    tails4wagging
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I agree with what you are saying there, I had whooping cough as a child so bad I turned blue each time I coughed .

    I have never nursed a child though who had, had the vaccine against any childhood disease then contracted a disease.

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Has anyone read this? I used to have the hard copy of this book "Murder by Injection" and I let someone borrow it and never got it back.

    http://www.whale.to/b/mullins2.html
    "Even if I am a minority of one, truth is still the truth."

    Gandhi

  44. #44
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Hi :0)


    Tetnus is carried in the stomachs of horses so yes not such a huge threat anymore unless you are not a veganic gardener and use horse manure on your roses etc..

    My son is a life time vegan and never had a single vaccination. He is a happy, healthy, intelligent 6 and half year old (but hey I am biased <grin>) Luckly in this country they still don't insist on vaccinations for children that do go to mainstream schools :0) lets keep it that way!!

    A great publication that you can subscribe to for the latest on vaccinations is the The Informed Parent I used this as part of my research when looking into it all when Lewis was born. I am 20 weeks pregnant now and again up dating myself with the latest on vaccinations, I still feel very strongly about not putting my next children through the vaccination program not only fpr animal rights reasons but health too. It might be harder now that I have left the South of England and moved to rural Cumbria coz it's farming country, as beautiful as it is, and we are the only vegans I know in the village hehehe!! But we are strong on our views and as a vegan for 17 yrs myself I have loads of experience hehehe!!

    Love and light
    Xxxx Stormy xxxX

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    "Nobody, anywhere or any time and under any circumstances has the right or power in this country to immunize you or your children against your will and conviction. If they attempt to do so, you can legally charge them with 'assault with a deadly weapon' and have the full resources of our laws here [USA]."

    Read more here:
    http://www.mercola.com/article/vacci...void_shots.htm
    "Even if I am a minority of one, truth is still the truth."

    Gandhi

  46. #46
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote Stormypagan
    Hi :0)


    Tetnus is carried in the stomachs of horses so yes not such a huge threat anymore unless you are not a veganic gardener and use horse manure on your roses etc..
    Hi Stormypagan

    One thing I'd really like to know, which I haven't found any information about so far, is whether tetanus is also carried by any other animals, eg cows, sheep, dogs etc, or whether it's only horses.

    Have you ever read anything about this?

    Also, there are some homeopathic treatments for the diseases for which allopathic medicine uses vaccinations. When my eldest child was very young, there was a whooping cough scare and I gave him the homeopathic pertussin.

    Cumbria sounds beautiful, but despite being so rural, I'm sure you'll still be able to insist on your vegan rights. I lived in southern England also, before moving to Wales, and I experienced much more pressure over my decision not to vaccinate my children there, than I have done since moving. In fact, I found the health service to be very much more authoritarian there than it is here, although that might be because it waas quite a long time ago, so things have probably changed everywhere in the meantime.

    Although I believe it's the case that GP practices have target percentages for vaccination coverage which they have to reach to obtain part of their funding, so that might partly explain the pressure they tend to put on parents who choose not to have their kids vaccinated.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
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  47. #47
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote Dome
    "Nobody, anywhere or any time and under any circumstances has the right or power in this country to immunize you or your children against your will and conviction. If they attempt to do so, you can legally charge them with 'assault with a deadly weapon' and have the full resources of our laws here [USA]."

    Read more here:
    http://www.mercola.com/article/vacci...void_shots.htm
    Have you heard about the recent research and development in the US of a vaccine against drug abuse? This has apparently reached quite an advanced stage and the authorities are considering the possibility of making it compulsory for entry into the US public schoolng system.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  48. #48
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I just found this, which says that tetanus bacteria CAN actually infect faeces of other animals and humans.

    http://www.talkmedical.com/diseases-...rs/954/Tetanus

    Also apparently people have contracted tetanus following surgery, ear infection, through ulcers and various other unlikely routes.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Wikipedia writers believe tetanus can be picked up from the excreta of animals other than horses:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus

    but I have been told before that soil is the most likely source of infection.

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    We once had a kid who picked it up after incessantly sucking on a ring.....on his finger, then in his mouth, and so on....the little dummy.

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