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Thread: Vaccinations

  1. #101

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Don't sit on the fence, it's a serious decision and needs careful thought. I gave you my family history to demonstrate that in my case it wasn't necessary but when my son was of the age due for his vax my wife gave in to the pressure from our doctor. My son has been okay since but that doesn't mean that vaxing is safe.

  2. #102
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    tizer i'm not really sitting on the fence, i just hear the arguments from both sides and think there is something of good coming from both.

    i know 2 families with 2 kids each, 1 of each pair of children were vaccinated, 1 wasn't - in BOTH cases the UN-vaccinated children are autistic whilst the vaccinated ones aren't. I have also read the 'research' re autism as my son is autistic and i am not convinced there is a link.

    However, i have also seen many animals have bad reactions to vaccines, and my own son had a very bad one and will never have another vaccination. The thought of injecting diseases into people or animals is revolting to me, as is the thought of the animals bred and tortured specifically for vaccination research and production. I am also very anti the yearly vaccination programmes recommended by vets.

    on the actual issue of whether vaccination programmes are worthwhile - that is where i'm 50/50 because i just don't know.

  3. #103
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    I didn't realize vaccines contain animal, I thought they was just half-dead viruses.

    If I had a kid, I would probably have it vaccinated although I think this is probably morally wrong as I like to live independantly as possible from animals and people got to die of something, especially as we're over populated. And I thinnk we should live as naturally as possible and obviously vaccines aren't natural.

    But I would justify it by saying that my kids are clever, vegan and need to be protected coz they're so special and will make a difference to the world with their veganism

    And if people weren't vaccinated, people would suffer if they caught it, and people are animals too. Also if someone caught something they would have to have loooaads more treatment than just a vaccine

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote littlewinker View Post
    But I would justify it by saying that my kids are clever, vegan and need to be protected coz they're so special and will make a difference to the world with their veganism

    And if people weren't vaccinated, people would suffer if they caught it, and people are animals too. Also if someone caught something they would have to have loooaads more treatment than just a vaccine

    Right but the disease isn't the only way your child could suffer. Your child could suffer a reaction to the vaccine which could be deadly, or a host of other possible adverse effects. Plus the vaccine may not even necessarily protect your child from the disease, as there are documented cases of people contracting a disease for which they have been vaccinated.

    It's just not a cut and dried issue--there are risks and benefits with a decision to vax or not vax, and these are what should be weighed, non-vegan ingredients aside. I mean, really, don't you think all of us parents view our children as "so special" and don't you think we all want to protect our children? It's just that some of us have reached different conclusions on how best to protect our special ones. We don't love our children any less and we aren't being ignorantly reckless--we're making educated decisions on a very complicated issue.

  5. #105

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    When you say that, “I just hear the arguments from both sides and think there is something of good coming from both”, I get very worried. You can rest assured that there are very powerful influences at play – namely pharmaceutical companies and the government agencies that are significantly influenced and manipulated by them – that do not want word to get out that vaccines may be implicated in the autism epidemic going on right now – but word already has.

    The link between vaccines that contain the mercury preservative thimerosal and autism go back almost a decade. Thimerosal is nearly 50 percent ethylmercury, and it is already an established fact that exposure to mercury can cause immune, sensory, neurological, motor, and behavioural dysfunctions – all similar to traits defining or associated with autism.

    One 2004 study that reviewed data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's (CDC) Vaccine Data Link even concluded that children who receive thimerosal-containing vaccinations are 27 times more likely to develop autism than children who do not. I suspect you will agree with me that that is a massive increase.

    In the case that you quoted, it is possible that the children were susceptible to autism regardless of whether they were vaccinated or not. Remember autism has been around long before vaccines were invented so I don't think the vaccine prevented autism in the vaccinated children.

    My dogs also did not have the yearly vaccinations as recommended by vets. Nothing adverse has happened to them. So there you have it!

  6. #106
    [LMNOP] ellaminnowpea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I really wish I hadn't been vaccinated. I've been sick for the greater part of the past six years (at least half of the year) from various flus, colds, infections, bacterial overgrowths, tonsilitis, etc... Along with that, I have asthma, allergies, painful joints, deficient liver, and digestive problems.

    I definitely think there's a huge link between my joint problems, asthma, and all those vaccines I was given. I started getting sick about a year after I started taking various vaccines before I moved to the middle east. Now, thats assuming that I wouldn't have actually caught one of those crazy tropical diseases and died... maybe the vaccines were worth it.

    But I don't know, I don't think my children will be getting those toxins pumped through their systems for the sake of avoiding generally survivable illnesses. I can only hope to see the day that the general public consensus is that vaccines are unnecessary and harmful.
    “I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning how to sail my ship.” ~ Alcott

  7. #107

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    I am fully vaccinated as is my daughter. Yes, there are risks to vaccines. Some people do have serious reactions. But the risks of the vaccine are very minimal and, in my opinion, are outweighed by the benefits. Vaccines save lives. They keep dangerous deadly diseases at bay. Not only do vaccines protect the person who gets them, but it helps everyone else around them as well. Herd immunity is very important in protecting against illnesses. In every population there are people who cannot receive vaccines: those who have had life-threatening reactions, people with immune system disorders/diseases, etc. The more people who opt out for other reasons, the more chance we have of destroying herd immunity and putting many people at risk.
    As far as the vegan aspect, I live my life as cruelty-free as I possibly can. This is an instance where I have made the decision that my child's health and safety is more important than where the vaccines come from.
    ~Lux

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I'm sorry, but you make some pretty bold statements in your post; bold statements without evidence to back them up. "Vaccines save lives" ?? You say that as if it is a fact. If it were a non-disputed fact, we would not be here debating this issue. I feel as though I'm repeating myself (and in fact I am) but I will say it again. It's not just the possible *risks* of vaccination that many of us consider reason to forego them, nor is the vegan issue even as big a priority to me as the combination of both the risks and the question of the *effectiveness* of vaccines (in fact I decided to stop vaxing before I even went vegan). If vaccines were really "immunizations" (a word used by pro-vax camps much like the term "pro-life" meant to present a term no one can argue with), then people who were "immunized" would be "immune" to the disease they were "immunized" against. But the fact is that, statistically they are not. There have been countless accounts of outbreaks of diseases amongst those who have been fully vaccinated against those diseases. Pertussis, or whooping cough, is a good example of this.

    So before you accuse those of us who have researched both sides of this issue extensively and made a decision not to vaccinate for a multitude of reasons, of putting people at risk of disease, you should investigate just what the effectiveness of vaccinating is. Then you would understand that "herd immunity" is as much a misnomer as is the term "immunization."
    Here's just the first link that came up when I googled this issue: http://community.wddty.com/blogs/adv...-the-herd.aspx

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Lux, I just wanted to point out that there are a lot of negative effects from vaccinations. Otherwise healthy people can get very ill. Myself and father both got seriously ill from taking our vaccinations before moving to the Middle East. There aren't enough long-term studies on the health of people who've had all these vaccinations. We don't even know what kind of illnesses could arise or are undectected resulting from these vaccinations. The medical field isn't an all-knowing being that can forecast the implications of putting toxins in our bodies. The risks are not minimal.

  10. #110

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I believe I stated that there are in fact risks to vaccinations. As a nurse, I have witnessed children have life-threatening reactions. I never denied that. But the chance of having such a reaction is lower than the risk of suffering serious consequences of the illnesses you're vaccinating against.
    And you're right, you can still contract a disease you're vaccinated against; immunizations are not 100% protective; but people who do get those diseases who have been vaccinated get a milder form.
    I, personally, would much rather risk my child having a reaction than not protecting them against diseases. The chance that my child will suffer a reaction to a vaccine is very low. That's my choice. Luckily, we all have that choice. And I don't mean to offend, but the fact is, not immunizing DOES affect other people. I vaccinate to protect myself and my child, and also everyone else we come in contact with.
    I appreciate the info, but I am a pediatric nurse and I have researched vaccinations extensively. I am educated, I have just obviously come to a different conclusion.
    ~Lux

  11. #111

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    As far as I know, children in developing countries don’t get the MMR jabs and there doesn’t appear to be any large-scale epidemics of the diseases this vaccination is supposed to prevent. So what’s behind this drive to get all our children vaxed.

    The more you are kept in the dark, either through lack of inquisitiveness or the workings of an unscrupulous industry (like Big Pharma – a pill for every ill, or the food industry that markets junk food and fizzy drinks to children as though it’s something they should be consuming) the easier you are to manipulate. And this is where people who do not possess their own knowledge base will easily believe that they must quickly get vaccinated against an imaginary pandemic like flu or measles, mumps and rubella, otherwise suffer fatal consequences.

    We need a paradigm shift in people’s consciousness about health and not be allowed to be scared by propaganda tactics of Big Pharma in connivance with the government. The more you are empowered, the more you will realise that you have the power to impart positive changes in your life and your children’s lives.

  12. #112
    [LMNOP] ellaminnowpea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I've lived in countries that are considered high risk for getting disease. We were forced to get the vaccines before we moved there. I know within that year (at age 11) I started developing joint pain, back pain, severe colds and bronchitis, sinus infections, etc. I don't think it's a coincidence.

    Now I'm seeing an osteopath. He refuses to give me a flu shot even though I've qualified for the risk group for years. He believes the fluc shot is so much more dangerous than getting the flu. And I agree. There are too many unnecessary chemicals, including those that are linked to alzheimers. [That said, I assume that anyone that lives long enough will develop AZ, humans aren't meant to live so long. Our tissues degrade.] But the bottom line is that I consider these vaccines to be toxins.
    “I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning how to sail my ship.” ~ Alcott

  13. #113

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Our 4 vegan children are completely vax-free.

  14. #114

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    Quote lux View Post
    But the chance of having such a reaction is lower than the risk of suffering serious consequences of the illnesses you're vaccinating against.
    Actually it is just the opposite. Check the VAERS database at the CDC in the U.S.

  15. #115

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Actually, incidents reported to VAERS are not verified as reactions to vaccines.

    ~Lux

  16. #116
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    My analysis concurs with Lux. Scaremongers who want to scare people that vaccinations are dangerous can easily cherry pick the data to make their claim seem backed by hard data, but an in depth look quickly shows their claims are erroneous. Here's an example they'd use: "The CDC's VAERS database has amassed an astounding 128,717 reports of vaccination adverse events in recent years, including many deaths, yet the US gov. is still injecting our children with these toxins."

    But if you look into it further you discover that of these 128,717 adverse reactions, they are all self diagnosed: "Three days after my vaccination I developed terrible lower back pain, which I haven't had in years. Coincidence? I don't think so!" [oh brother]

    Let's pretend for a moment that every single one of these 128,717 adverse reactions reported over a decade's time were, for the sake of argument, 100% legit. [Yeah, right.] That is to say, let's pretend they were all indeed caused by the vaccine and weren't just temporally coincidental. What are one's odds of having a bad reaction then? These 128,717 bad reactions reflect a total number of 1,900,000,000 vaccinations given in the US over that time frame so roughly .006 % of people "have" bad reactions or roughly 1 in every 19,000. Also note that roughly 86% of these bad reactions are pretty minor such as temporary redness, rash, and injection site tenderness, for example. As for the more serious reactions including death:

    "A clinical research team follows up on all deaths reported to VAERS. The majority of these deaths were ultimately classified as sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). Analysis of the age distribution and seasonality of infant deaths reported to VAERS indicated that they matched the age distribution and seasonality of SIDS; both peaked at aged 2--4 months and during the winter. The decrease in deaths reported to VAERS since 1992--1993 parallels the overall decrease in SIDS in the U.S. population since the implementation of the Back to Sleep campaign. Carefully controlled epidemiologic studies consistently have not found any association between SIDS and vaccines. FDA and the Institute of Medicine (IOM) reviewed 206 deaths reported to VAERS during 1990--1991. Only one death was believed to have resulted from a vaccine. The patient was a woman aged 28 years who died from Guillain-Barré syndrome after tetanus vaccination. IOM concluded that the majority of deaths reported to VAERS are temporally but not causally related to vaccination. A similar conclusion was reached regarding neonatal deaths temporally reported to VAERS in association with hepatitis B vaccination."

    Source: VAERS of the Center for Disease Control and Prevention

    Contrast this to the percentage of people who would die a slow, painful, lingering death by refusing vaccination for rabies, if they caught it: nearly 100%. Thanks to vaccinations we only get 1 or 2 rabies deaths in the US/UK poulations yearly, but in developing countries without vaccinations the World Health Organization estimates there are 55,000 rabies deaths every year.

  17. #117

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I often wonder if sanitary conditions in developed nations have as much to do with diseases being less prevalent. I'm sure vaccines have played a part too.

    That said, we selectively and delay vaccinations with our son. I think giving an infant the number of vaccines that are recommended on the vaxing schedule is ridiculous and unnecessary. Giving a newborn a Hep B shot after birth? Does anyone else think this is a little insane? The aluminum content alone freaks me out, not to mention all the other junk in vaccines. If anyone is looking for a good book on this topic, you might want to check out Dr. Sears' The Vaccine Book. It was also helpful for us to go through the diseases and consider our risk factors before vaccinating.

  18. #118

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    Quote tizer View Post
    As far as I know, children in developing countries don’t get the MMR jabs and there doesn’t appear to be any large-scale epidemics of the diseases this vaccination is supposed to prevent. So what’s behind this drive to get all our children vaxed.
    The World Health Organisation disagrees (unless you feel their reporting of global mortality rates is part of the consipiracy too...). Measles is one of the highest 'preventable' killers of children in the developing world. The WHO report on the vaccination programme states that the figures for child deaths from measles has fallen from 873,000 in '99 to 530,000 in '03. That's half a million unvaccinated kids who died just in one year. The prevalence of serious disability as sequelae from measles in comparison to death from measles runs at about 30:1. So that's around 15 million brain-damaged or physically disabled unvaccinated children.

    My dad collects unusual books, and bought a death register from the Children's Hospital in Lambeth from the early 1930s. Measles was by far the greatest cause of death in that register - whole groups of siblings dead within a couple of weeks of each other. Heartbreaking stuff.

  19. #119

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Most of the vax "preventable" diseases that used to be fatal are now treatable with modern medicine. People with asthma, compromised immune systems, etc are more at risk for complications from some diseases, but your average healthy individual usually weathers these diseases just fine on their own, with modern medicine there to help if necessary.

  20. #120

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    If measles is so widespread - as no doubt it is - I can only speculate that poor hygiene and sanitation makes children vulnerable not just to measles, but other contagious diseases. As ‘veganf’ says “vax ‘preventable’ diseases that use to be fatal are now treatable with modern medicine”.

    As a senior citizen my doctor has been writing to me every year as winter approaches inveigling me to have the flu vaccine. I usually ignore his letters as I've been railing against this practice for years. Yet, many seniors of my age will still line up for their vaccine. This year that line will probably be even longer: Flu vaccines may very well be in even greater demand, due to increased fears of pneumonia as part of government propaganda.

    Some new research published recently in the highly respected medical journal The Lancet adds some weight to my argument, and hopefully will finally convince my peers that their flu shot habit is in desperate need of breaking.

    After examining the records of more than 3,500 patients ages 65 to 94, the researchers found that, over the course of three different flu seasons, there was no link between the flu vaccine and risk of pneumonia. Previous studies have indicated that people who got vaccinated had less risk of pneumonia, but after their thorough analysis, the authors of The Lancet study believe there's a simple explanation for this phenomenon that has nothing to do with the flu shot itself. They assert that "Those who got the vaccine happened to be healthier."

    So, as I maintain, what will really protect you from the flu and pneumonia is a strong immune system – not the flu shot. And I believe this advice applies to all vaccinations.

  21. #121
    gorillagorilla Gorilla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    what do people think of the new HPV vaccine?

  22. #122
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    Maybe too many shots given too early at the same time is the big problem? I know babies' immune system is not fully developed, but it's not before they start daycare or pre-school that the risk is really HIGH for catching stuff... isn't that usually the case? So why are vaccines given so early?...

    I would vaccinate my kids if I had any but not too early and I would limit the amount of vaccines given... and also make sure they are more spread out. Hopefully I would have an understanding doctor willing to work with me on this one.

    I'm not a big fan of flu shots since it's developed with last year's strain.
    "Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.

  23. #123
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    Quote Gorilla View Post
    what do people think of the new HPV vaccine?
    I would rather teach the importance of safe sex (with condoms) than give this vaccine.
    "Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.

  24. #124
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    Quote xrodolfox View Post
    We are delaying vaccination as late as possible, and giving only vaccines that don't have thimerasol, and even then, giving only the ones nessesary and avoiding all others (vaccinating for whooping cough but not for varicella). We also don't "bunddle" up on vaccines, so that if there are any ill effects, they can really be traced and mitigated.

    So far, our "extra cautious" approach has worked. We also do request vaccines that don't have egg products in them.
    Sounds reasonable to me and something I would do, xrodolfox. It's not all or nothing in my case.
    "Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.

  25. #125
    Mahk
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    Quote veganf View Post
    Most of the vax "preventable" diseases that used to be fatal are now treatable with modern medicine. People with asthma, compromised immune systems, etc are more at risk for complications from some diseases, but your average healthy individual usually weathers these diseases just fine on their own, with modern medicine there to help if necessary.
    Tell that to the parents of the 180,999 children who have died worldwide from measles so far this year [to today's date Sept. 30, 2008]. Almost none of which are in the US (less than 50 per year), and the few that are are foreign sourced (people who have just moved to the US and aren't vaccinated, for example) or populations who have refused vaccinations for religious reasons, etc.



    Source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention

    This source also has a good overview of some of the myths perpetuated by the anti-vax crusaders.

  26. #126

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    Quote xrodolfox View Post
    We also do request vaccines that don't have egg products in them.
    It was my understanding that all vaxes cultures are grown on chicken eggs.
    mama to Ryan (7), AJ (6), Nate (3), Maia (1), all born at home.

  27. #127

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    A foundation populated by the giants of business, banking, government and military wants to “vet” websites and limit the spread of information that it says creates “conspiracy theories”. The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) says it is worried about the way the web has been “used to spread disinformation”. They want to introduce a new system that would give websites a label for trustworthiness or unreliability.

    One “damaging conspiracy theory” they want to shut down is the notion that MMR vaccines are harmful. Of course, this “conspiracy theory” stems not from paranoid forum postings and misquoted blog entries, but from scientific research into the mercury based preservative thimerosal. Thimerosal was developed by Eli Lilly, and Merck is the world’s largest supplier of the MMR triple jab – and it is little wonder W3C considers such information to be “damaging” given that Eli Lilly and Merck are both paid up and approved members of the Consortium! If anyone should be labelled with an “unreliable” rating, it is the WC3.

    Sources: Prison Planet September 15, 2008, BBC News September 15, 2008

  28. #128
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    Quote kriz View Post
    I would rather teach the importance of safe sex (with condoms) than give this vaccine.
    so would i, but the safe sex message obviously doesn't get through to some people, and isn't it better to stop girls dying of cervical cancer if possible? just a thought...

  29. #129

    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Hiya... I have two healthy boys (6 & 4) and i too after lots of research decided against following the immunisation programme on offer here in the UK. Both have been brought up Vegetarian until monday just gone as i have decided to work on a Vegan lifestyle now.

    I know that this is a really hard decision for anyone to choose to opt out of and of course there will always be a chance of catching horrible deseases but i am of the oppinion that an un-compromised immune syetem will have the best chance of fighting anything that comes it's way.

    I remember the govement rambling on about restricting benifits and not letting children go to school who are not immunised but to be honnest that just makes me even stronger in my belief that i am doing the right thing.

    The global immunisation industry makes lots of money and is big business of which our govement makes monies out of. For example doctors recieving bonusus if a high percentage of patients are immunised.

    I had a issue to conceider whilsit i was pregnant as i am R- and you are offerd an innoculation of ANTI D whilst you are pregnant and again after the child is born. This is due to possibility of me producing a R+ baby as my husband is R+ as as the anti bodies passed via the ambilical cord could harm myself and the baby.

    So of couse i started to read about it and also asked my mid-wife to give me a list of what was in it. I did want to just blindly believe them as i find it hard to believe that i would try to kill my unborn baby inside me. Of course they has been rare cases of this otherwise it wouldnt be an issue but not in general for everyone.

    So after reading the ingredients list i was presented with the fact they there was a good chance of other anti-bodies from other innoculations being in it ( a crafty way to blindly immunise) and that the other one they would guarentee wasnt in it was Yellow Fever. OMG! The human blood they wanted to put in me hadnt even been screened for AIDS. So it was a no-go for me and i was going to put my trust in nature and my second son came along with no issues and too is very healthy.

    All i would suggest is that to immunise or not should be a fully informed decision, so hand on heart you can be happy with your decision

    sorry for any spelling mistakes, never been very good at it

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  30. #130

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    It's that time of year when PCTs (your local NHS bodies) contact people of my vintage to get their annual flu shots. I've been receiving these letters now for the past 13 years and have consistently ignored the scare-laden wording to get myself 'immunised' against 'dread' diseases. I rely solely on my body's own immune system to ward off any flu or other disease prevelant at this time of year.
    For those still undecided, I have a list of "Vaccines and Immunization References and Research Citations" -14 pages of A4 long - which I consider to be the 'last word' on this subject. This will put paid to all those who still believe in vaccinations.

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    That would make an interesting read if you have it on email
    Lit by the fire...powered by the hips

  32. #132

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    I get offered the flu jab because I am on immunosupressive drugs and flu could kill me.
    I know it only offers partial protection and its not vegan but I usually take it.
    I have had a pneumo jab too.
    If people are at high risk of death from vaccinateable diseases diseases then I think vaccination lowers the odds.
    Age doesn't necessarily mean people will be immunosuppressed of course.
    Last edited by herbwormwood; Nov 10th, 2008 at 02:19 PM. Reason: age point
    See my local diary ... http://herbwormwood.blogspot.com/

  33. #133
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    Quote Gorilla View Post
    so would i, but the safe sex message obviously doesn't get through to some people, and isn't it better to stop girls dying of cervical cancer if possible? just a thought...
    The safe sex message covers other serious stuff as well such as HIV. I'm not completely anti-vaccine, but I definitely don't think it's healthy to vaccinate against everything under the sun either. With other potentially deadly diseases there's less control in prevention because some are even airborne.
    "Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.

  34. #134
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    Quote Maisiepaisie View Post
    Yes its surprised me too. This is a health issue as well as an AR issue. Both my children were vaccinated as babies then I read some information similar to what sizeT is saying and since then I won't allow my children to be vaccinated. I remember when the meningitis vaccine came out and mothers just allow doctors to inject their kids with god knows what which is unbelievable but also there is the fact that no one knows what the long term side effects of a new vaccine may be. Thank God I had the knowledge by that time to not allow my kids to have the meningitis vaccine. If I was to have more children they would not be vaccinated at all.

    Could you share some of that info? I'm attending Faculty of Agriculture and we're required to get vaccinated towards meningitis (I hope it's not obligatory :S), and I'd like to learn more about that. Thanks!
    Life is about having to change ... Taking the moment and making the best of it, without knowing what's going to happen next.

  35. #135

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Meningitis vaccine is made from inactivated virus.
    No doubt the school wants students vaccinated becaus their exposure to potential blood poisoning is higher, due to the nature of the work.
    Theres a lot of info on meningitis here
    http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/...meningitis.htm
    See my local diary ... http://herbwormwood.blogspot.com/

  36. #136

    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote sizeT
    Keep your immune systems strong with organic
    living foods, green superfoods, lots of vitamin C, exercise that you enjoy, lots of
    sunshine and sleep, and positive, upbeat thoughts.
    I'm sure that works great for avoiding the common cold and flu (at least most of the time) and other general health benefits, but that won't keep you from getting polio or measles.

    Quote sizeT
    Mercury poisoning symptoms almost mimic autism symptoms. Now we have 500,000 people with autistic spectrum disorders in the UK.
    No (at least to the first part).

    From wikipedia:

    Mercury poisoning:
    -peripheral neuropathy, as itching, burning, or pain on skin, or as paresthesia (a sensation of tingling, pricking, or numbness of a person's skin with no apparent long-term physical effect. It is more generally known as the feeling of "pins and needles" or of a limb being "asleep")
    -skin discoloration
    -edema (swelling)
    -desquamation (dead skin peels off in layers)
    -hyperhidrosis (profuse sweating)
    -tachycardia (persistently faster-than-normal heart beat)
    -mercurial ptyalism (hypersalivation)
    -hypertension (high blood pressure)

    Quote wikipedia
    Affected children may show red cheeks and nose, erythematous lips (red lips), loss of hair, teeth, and nails, transient rashes, hypotonia (muscle weakness), and photophobia. Other symptoms may include kidney disfunction (e.g. Fanconi syndrome) or neuropsychiatric symptoms (emotional lability, memory impairment, insomnia).
    Of all of these listed signs and symptoms, the only ones I see mimicking autism would be photophobia (as sensory sensitivity) and memory impairment, for autistics who have learning disabilities.

    Autism (highly variable and individual so don't even try to think of this as a summary even, but things like gastrointestinal complaints and seizures aren't autism, though the latter are more common in autistic people):
    -atypical socialization:
    (could be characterized by avoiding people, playing alone, trying to join in a group but seeming really awkward, saying things considered socially "inappropriate" when that's not the intention, not responding to your name, not making eye contact, having difficulty reading body language or tone of voice, difficulty moderating your own volume or tone of voice)

    -Atypical Communication

    (such as difficulty or inability to initiate a conversation - or any speech at all; pronoun reversal; delayed and immediate echolalia - delayed echolalia would be repeating something later on, maybe hours, days, or years after it was heard, whereas immediate is immediate repetition; unusual body language; unusual play such as lining and stacking up objects)

    -Repetitive Behavior
    (such as hand flapping, toe walking, finger twisting, body rocking, head rolling - these are frequently called stimming in the autistic community. We also have difficulty switching gears, difficulty in starting, stopping, switching, stuff like that. We also tend to have certain compulsions, like putting things in certain orders that make sense to us according to specific and elaborate rules, or a routine to put the clothes on in a certain order, and there are specific rules to this too. There are also special interests, such as a fascination with a topic (such as autism, nutrition, ceiling fans, number theory)
    -While not diagnostic, autistic people are much more likely than others to have savant ability (a significant ability such as perfect pitch or photographic memory, are examples of savant skills). To a lesser extent, most autistics have wide scatter in skills (for instance, on some subtests of the WAIS IQ test, I scored in the bottom 1%, whereas on other subtests I scored in the top 9%. Overall I scored in the bottom 15%, and it's pretty common even for people with much less dramatic scatter to have a verbal and performance score that are each a standard deviation or two apart).


    Also, for those who aren't familiar much (or at all) with autism, or even those who are very familiar with autism, what always seems to trip this up, and cause people to associate these two (vaccines and autism), is this: autistic people commonly experience times of losing sets of skills previously acquired, that get called regressions. I know; I've experienced several of these "regressions" myself. Two of the most common time periods for regressions are toddlerhood and adolescence - which makes total sense, because it is a time when we are both expected to learn a lot of new skills, and a lot of new stresses may be introduced that can make already existing skills difficult to sustain.

    For instance: I am a freshman in college, just moved out on my own, plenty of stress right there. Now not only am I expected to do new things independently, but the new stress of being in a new place (which can be HUGE for autistic people), resulted in that when I went on a bus line that I had practiced going on with my parents before they left, when I did it on my own, I completely forgot that you have to pull the cord for a stop, and tried to get off the bus without it even stopping, not to mention the loss of a whole lot of self-care skills in the last month or so.

    So many autistic people experience regressions throughout their lives, and with regards to vaccinations, an interesting case to look at is the case where an individual is both autistic and has Down syndrome. Since it takes longer to come up with that many words, than for someone who is regressive autistic (but doesn't have Down syndrome), that age of loss of speech is much more correlated to age of acquisition of speech, than to age of MMR or other vaccinations.

    Also, in twin studies, we already can confirm that autism is largely genetic. Two twins who have pretty much the same DNA (I believe the term is monozygous), if one is diagnosed with Kanner's autism, the other has a 60% chance of being diagnosed with the same, whereas 90% chance of being diagnosed with any ASD (autism, Asperger, PDD-NOS, etc.), though really the categorical distinctions aren't really that meaningful since the variation within each is so huge, and the commonality among them all is so much, and services are determined based upon individual skills assessment and not upon your diagnosis anyway, though in schools an Asperger dx or "high functioning" label can lead them to think you're WAY more "high functioning" than you are. But that's another topic.

    Keep in mind, too, that for an autism spectrum diagnosis, a criterion you need to meet is a level of impairment in your day to day lives. A large number of autistic people learn to "fake normal", so that while they seem to be fairly functional on the outside, they may be struggling to get by on the inside, and their home may be a mess because they can't deal with the stress of it, and don't have the time to live a "normal life", go back and de-stress, and then do the daily living stuff that needs to be done. (For autistic people, stuff that most find relaxing, like socializing with friends, can be stressful, no matter how much we love the person and enjoy their company, it's just a physically exhausting act like if you have to run a marathon every time you have to talk on the phone).

    So lots of people, some of whom really need services, some of whom really are quite successful on their own, are denied a diagnosis because they have learned to hide their autistic features in public, and then in private rock to their heart's content. But this is very stressful, and often leads to nervous breakdowns and depression, and is not something I would ever recommend unless it is necessary for survival. I remember before I was ever suspected to be autistic, in a public restroom I was flapping my hands, and my mom told me to stop that. I stopped shortly, but then soon enough, I started again, and she told me to stop again. Label or no, we get the message.

    So people who are able to develop these "masks of normalcy" (whether they are truly able to cope underneath or they feel like they are dying inside), can well explain autistic people who have been able to "slide underneath the radar" so to speak, even in a time when people are supposed to be autism-aware. And I say supposed to be, because I was pretty obviously autistic when I was in kindergarten and first grade in '96 and '97 (was never in preschool), not responding to my name much, usually not participating and instead sorting buttons and beads or staring at the wall or ceiling for 2 hours or more, etc., but all they ever seemed to pick up on was unspecified "attention issues", but they didn't even evaluate further on that. So I suspect that that 90% figure, for people in the autistic spectrum, is only defining those who fit strict diagnostic criteria, and that if you looked later down the line, including those who were good at faking normal and those who had the traits but not "impaired" - then that figure would probably be much closer to 100%.

  37. #137

    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote Anouk View Post
    Could you share some of that info? I'm attending Faculty of Agriculture and we're required to get vaccinated towards meningitis (I hope it's not obligatory :S), and I'd like to learn more about that. Thanks!
    Meningitis is awful, and bacterial meningitis has about a 10% death rate, with treatment I believe. And to diagnose it, they have to do a spinal tap which include having you be still a long time and stick a needle in your lower back to extract fluid from the spinal column, and then if it's bacterial meningitis then they will probably administer antibiotics through an IV.

    This slideshow has some more info: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/t...es_50_no_0.htm

  38. #138

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Millions of teenage and pre-teen girls are having the Gardasil vaccine to protect against the HPV virus and cervical cancer - but have they, and their parents, been told the truth about the vaccine and its dangers? Drug regulators have received thousands of reports of serious side effects, ranging from paralysis, heart attack - and even death - in the two years since its launch in the USA.

    So, if the vaccine is far more dangerous than we're being told, how come it's being pushed on millions of young girls around the world and how come the drug regulators aren't taking more of an interest in its safety? These answers - which every parent and young girl needs to hear - won't come from the vaccine's manufacturer, or from the regulators who we look to as guardians of our wellbeing. That's because Gardasil has been the subject of the greatest marketing campaign ever undertaken by a pharmaceutical company. The pre-launch marketing campaign was so effective that it was approved by regulators without one single long-term trial demonstrating either its safety or effectiveness.

    And when the first trial was published - a year after it had been launched to the American public - it was effective in fewer than 20 per cent of cases in preventing early cervical lesions. Even now, no trial has ever been carried out among the population for whom it's aimed - preteen and teenage girls up to the age of 16. This has happened because Gardasil was given the type of marketing push usually reserved for a new motorcar or pair of jeans. By the time it was approved, everyone thought it was a necessary vaccine, and a 'good thing'.

    So all you girls and mothers of girls take note and don’t be misled by the marketing hype!

  39. #139

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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    ^ Although Tizer has the right to his/her strongly held beliefs, the above post is simply factually incorrect. Even nothing more specialist than a Google search brings up details of numerous safety and efficacy trials, which were carried out before the drug was licensed (as is the law). The outcomes are closer to 100% than 20%.

    I don't have the time (or frankly the inclination) to look at the medical publication registers to pull out all of the studies for this drug, but if you're considering not vaccinating yourself or your daughter on the grounds of the above post, please make sure you are fully informed before you do.

  40. #140
    Tottering Bunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    ^^ here here
    There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary and those that don't.

  41. #141
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    +1 to RubyRose. I did a little digging though and thought to pass on what I found for others wishing to explore Gardasil.

    Quote tizer View Post
    The pre-launch marketing campaign was so effective that it was approved by regulators without one single long-term trial demonstrating either its safety or effectiveness.
    My research disagrees:

    "The safety of the HPV vaccine was studied in 7 clinical trials before it was licensed. There were over 21,000 girls and women ages 9 through 26 in these clinical trials."

    Source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention.

    Quote tizer View Post
    These answers - which every parent and young girl needs to hear - won't come from the vaccine's manufacturer, or from the regulators who we look to as guardians of our wellbeing.
    [emphasis mine]

    I can see how one could argue the manufacturer would have a financial motivation to murder/harm teen-aged girls and women in order to make a profit, but explain the logic why the doctors and scientists who are employed to monitor and watch out for the possible dangers of medicines/vaccines to the general public, such as the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, would benefit? Their decisions are based on scientific analysis (I assure you they don't go by "gut instinct" or falling for "marketing hype"; they go by numbers).

  42. #142
    snivelingchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    What people need to realize is that this is a vaccine for an STD!!! They don't mention that because people don't want to think about their 16 year olds having unprotected sex. What about safe sex? Oh no, let's not even talk about it, let's try to make it mandatory for all young girls to be given these shots. Geez.

  43. #143
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    ^ The title of this John Hopkins Newsletter article says it all.

  44. #144
    my army bradders's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    an important step forward for society would be for the abolition of the pharma industry and just have the researchers, universities and the NHS working together to do what is best for the patient not for profit. the old adage 'why sell one cure when you can sell a thousand palliatives' is particularly relevant. Up until I became vegan I was fully immunized (tetinus, hep a& b, mmr, bsg (tb), typhoid, rabies, polio and a few others from being a kid, , this year I haven't had the flue shot (for certain reasons that are long and drawn out I should) but it is a hard decision. Theoretically I do believe in vaccination. Obviousely not in the use of egg whites. I don't believe in vivisection I advocate human cell and chemical testig instead. I have and more than likely will have in the future drugs that have been tested on animals as there are no alternative to the drugs. In the meantime all I can do is petition for an end to animal testing.

  45. #145

    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote Mahk View Post

    Source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention.

    [emphasis mine]

    I can see how one could argue the manufacturer would have a financial motivation to murder/harm teen-aged girls and women in order to make a profit, but explain the logic why the doctors and scientists who are employed to monitor and watch out for the possible dangers of medicines/vaccines to the general public, such as the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, would benefit? Their decisions are based on scientific analysis (I assure you they don't go by "gut instinct" or falling for "marketing hype"; they go by numbers).
    Exactly. While there is a lot of corruption in the pharmaceutical industry, as often comes part and parcel with corporations, that doesn't provide sufficient explanation for the existence of a conspiracy. It's not like the scientists at the CDC huddle together and say "Hmm...how can we poison women and children for big bucks this year - any ideas Bob?"

  46. #146
    snivelingchild's Avatar
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    ^ The title of this John Hopkins Newsletter article says it all.
    I consider part of safe sex to be not having sex with someone until you have both been screened for STDs, unless neither of you had any previous partners. Putting on a rubber DOESN'T mean you're having safe sex in the least.

    What I object to was the fact that the vaccine is being sold as a cancer preventative, and that is misleading. Especially when someone may end up having only one partner for life, and that vaccine was completely unnecessary. I would be appalled had my parents been forced to have me injected with Gardasil when I was 12, (there was a law proposed to make the vaccine mandatory to young girls) and exposed me to risks of a vaccine, no matter how RELATIVELY unlikely, for no reason.

    No matter how pro-vaccine you are, any doctor who doesn't recognize the danger is giving many, unnecessary vaccines is stupid. Many vets recommend only giving your cats/dogs shots every 3 years, to reduce negative effects, yet it is still common to have them done every year. You have to weigh risks v. consequences. My cats are strictly indoor, and never come in contact with strays, and are only exposed to the occasional mosquito that comes inside. I do not give them shots every year (and when I do, only the more necessary ones) because their risks are very low. It would just be pointless to load them up with 10+ vaccines every year, or even every 6 months as some doctors do, since they claim a vaccine is only effective for 6 months after it is given.

  47. #147
    snivelingchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote Mahk View Post
    I can see how one could argue the manufacturer would have a financial motivation to murder/harm teen-aged girls and women in order to make a profit, but explain the logic why the doctors and scientists who are employed to monitor and watch out for the possible dangers of medicines/vaccines to the general public, such as the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, would benefit?
    Pharmaceutical industries spend billions of dollars researching drugs.
    They need these drugs to get onto the market to make back that money, so do all they can to get FDA to pass it.
    Whoever funds research GREATLY impacts the findings. If you doubt this, spend any amount of time researching, and you will find this a constant. The way you design an experiment has a lot to do with the outcome, sometimes moreso that what you are studying.
    Doctors and medical institutions are taught about a drug by the manufacturer, not any 3rd party. This means a great deal of spin can be brought to the benefits/risks of their product.

    There is no conspiracy/want to harm. There is simply a way of doing things that does not effectively/efficiently do what it is setup to do. There is money to prove a medicine effective, but not so much money to evaluate its risks.

  48. #148
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    I consider part of safe sex to be not having sex with someone until you have both been screened for STDs, unless neither of you had any previous partners. Putting on a rubber DOESN'T mean you're having safe sex in the least.
    The 3,800,000 teens who contract STDs every year (that's over 10,000 cases per day) in the US would seem to not use your definition of safe sex, or not care, unfortunately. Either that or they foolishly trusted their incompetent doctors who had cleared them and their partners during the STD screening process they undertook prior to engaging in sex with any of them.

    Perhaps prior to vaccinations with Gardasil we could ask girls/women "is there any chance you will ever have sex with a partner who you don't first have screened for STDs by a medical professional, prior to engaging in sex, during your entire life?" For the women/girls who indicate that would be "impossible", short of rape, we could safely not give them the shots. Think of all the countless cases of next-day injection site soreness we could prevent (the most commonly reported adverse reaction to Gardasil shots) as well as all the savings in time and money. Of course we have to assume they all will be both completly honest and be able to see the future.

    Also think of all the women who live a life of complete sexual abstinence or in total isolation form other people their entire lives. Gardasil shots would be pointless for them as well.

  49. #149
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vaccinations

    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    Pharmaceutical industries spend billions of dollars researching drugs.
    They need these drugs to get onto the market to make back that money, so do all they can to get FDA to pass it.
    So in their interest to make money, true of any business, they spend billions of dollars on sham testing procedures (concocted just for show) guaranteed to clear their drugs as being safe, even though they know they are quite possibly dangerous and will kill/harm the women and children of their own country/family once released (or they simply don't know/care). That makes sense.

    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    Doctors and medical institutions are taught about a drug by the manufacturer, not any 3rd party. This means a great deal of spin can be brought to the benefits/risks of their product
    That's great news! Since the doctors and scientists of the CDC, FDA, FSA, and other regulatory agencies entrusted to protect our society gain their "knowledge" as to the safety of a drug/food/medicine simply by taking the manufacturer's word for it (based on these sham tests they do), I guess there's no longer any need to kill animals anymore doing safety testing. They can just make up the data instead. Hurray!

  50. #150
    Mahk
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    Quote Quantum Mechanic View Post
    It's not like the scientists at the CDC huddle together and say "Hmm...how can we poison women and children for big bucks this year - any ideas Bob?"
    I hear Bob was fired and then murdered. See he had threatened to go public with the truth that their organization's entire existence was based solely to lull the general public into a false sense of security so that the drug industry can peddle their poisons and mind control drugs on all of us.

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