Vaccinations

[Quantum Mechanic]

Hello,
I have not been able to read all the thread due to drinking quite a lot of wine, hic
but just had a quick point: vaccinations do not always work - my daughter had all the statutory vaccines and still got whooping cough, my friends boy had his too and still got measles.

personally i still believe in vaccines and get pissed off when i get warnings from the school that measles/mumps is going round cos of parents that didn't vaccinate, but i know that there are probably going to be some vaccines that i don't agree with, so each to their own, just practice good health!

Yeah, good thing we finally found my vaccination card after going to school a few months. If there had been an outbreak of measles or something, and without that info on file at school, I would've had to leave school temporarily, even though I really had my vaccinations because the school can't confirm that yet. Especially since my school is such a hippie place and all. ;-)

EDIT: Oh, and also - often when a vaccine doesn't prevent an illness from occurring, the person who gets sick actually gets a much milder form of it, so it can do good even when it isn't being totally effective.

[Mahk]

^Right. Sometimes people in car accidents wearing safety belts die. It doesn't prove they are worthless.

[eeplox]

I believe in maintaining a healthy immune system over vaccinations.

I haven't been sick a single day in the two years since I've been raw vegan, while I would get colds, the flu and allergies when I was plain vegan. It could just be a coincidence, but it's just something I've noticed and have been surprised by. My whole family gets the flu and I remain unaffected *knock on wood*

[Ruby Rose]

It could just be a coincidence

Indeed - or you may just have a natural immunity to some of the diseases to which you have been exposed. But it doesn't follow that you would be immune to everything. Would you advocate vaccination for those who don't have such a good immune system, then? In any case, hope that your good health continues though.

[Quantum Mechanic]

Also, while healthy lifestyle may offer good immunity for most people against common illness like colds (and even this not 100%), that doesn't mean it's going to protect you from tetanus and pertussus and measles and diptheria and...

[tizer]

I was quoting from memory about the BBC interview and I stand corrected. I may have got the name of the interviewer and interviewee wrong but I stand by my charge that GSK has something to hide. You can check out these 2 websites if you wish to continue with the debate surrounding Seroxat and GSK but I would like to give you my final thoughts on vaccinations.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1382551.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...r-Seroxat.html

I am not medically qualified to pronounce on matters outside my field of expertise (engineering). However, as a layman who may have need for recourse to medicines at times, I have to proceed with caution with any advice or recommendations given by my doctor or the government especially with regard to vaccinations as it is my belief that they (the governement)cannot always be trusted.

You may have statistics to show me the effectiveness of vaccines and I can show you statistics to show the opposite. Neither of us will be willing to be convinced by each other’s figures. Personally, as I have said in a previous posting, I have not had any vaccinations. Statistics did not influence my judgement and I have been vindicated in my self-convictions. I’ve been around for nearly three-quarters of a century and have been fairly disease free in all this time. I think this is sufficient evidence for me to make health judgements regarding myself, my family and my dogs, who incidentally are also not vaccinated and have not come to grief as a consequence (they are old now). People should make up their own minds and weigh up the odds of the risks and benefits, if any, of vaccinations and not be pressured by propaganda coming from any quarter especially the pharmaceutical companies who only stand to gain financially.

[Roxy]

I tend to cover my mouth with my arm too

Me too. I work with fresh fruit and vegetables all day. I think it would be very wrong to sneeze into my glove and then touch food.

[Mahk]

I was quoting from memory about the BBC interview and I stand corrected. I may have got the name of the interviewer and interviewee wrong but I stand by my charge that GSK has something to hide. You can check out these 2 websites if you wish to continue with the debate surrounding Seroxat...

Seroxat is not a vaccine. Start a new thread on it if you wish.

You may have statistics to show me the effectiveness of vaccines and I can show you statistics to show the opposite.

I challenge that. Please show us public health "statistics" that vaccines are ineffective. Please provide a corroborative link, thanks.

Tizer, if you choose to live your life by anecdotal evidence and personal experience that's your right, but making claims against immunization programs that literally save millions of lives worldwide by stating falsehoods and distortions that they aren't effective is another.

[tizer]

I do know that Seroxat is not a vaccine. My son was prescribed this antidepressant several years ago with near fatal consequences. You can therefore understand why I am sceptical about any statements coming out of GSK.

In life we are frequently faced with making decisions and sometimes a decision can have an undesired outcome. Therefore, my decision not to vaccinate myself arose intuitively assisted by some reflection on my personal and my family’s medical history. And I have been vindicated.

Intuition was the determinant of my decision and not statistics. There is an old adage that says, “You can prove anything with statistics”. Statistically flying is shown to be a safe mode of travel, but this statistic is meaningless to someone who has just died in an air crush. A few years ago an elderly friend of ours died after a severe bout of flu. She had been vaccinated. Does this prove that vaccines don’t work? Had she not been vaccinated she may still have died. Does this mean that she would have been alive if she was vaccinated?

Incidentally how do you know that “immunization programs literally save ‘millions’ of lives worldwide”? Do you have direct knowledge of this or are you relying on information put out by vaccine manufacturers? If the latter, then what is your criteria for sifting truth from fiction?

The Amish eschew all modern technology including modern medicine and as far as I know don’t get vaccinated. How is it that they appear to be happy and healthy and not obsessed by the need to be vaccinated?

I do not support my case with reference to third party research but I do read these out of interest and therefore accept your challenge to show research that vaccines are ineffective:
http://www.naturalnews.com/022617.html
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/281/1/61/

[Kitteh]

I really wish I hadn't been vaccinated. I've been sick for the greater part of the past six years (at least half of the year) from various flus, colds, infections, bacterial overgrowths, tonsilitis, etc... Along with that, I have asthma, allergies, painful joints, deficient liver, and digestive problems.

Sounds like me, I was vaccinated as a child, then at age 17 when I went to Vietnam and then forced to at age 20 when I was at uni doing Agricultural Science. The colds/flus have gone since going vegan but my liver/digestion is a still meh and my allergies have become much worse.

what do people think of the new HPV vaccine?

There is no way I would get that done and I would hate for it to become compulsory in high schools.

[Mahk]

Incidentally how do you know that “immunization programs literally save ‘millions’ of lives worldwide”?

Because it's a universally agreed upon fact held by all general medical/scientific communities, and all major world health organizations around the world including The World Health Organization:

"Immunization saves the lives of more than 3 million people worldwide each year, and it saves millions more from suffering illness and lifelong disability"

Think they may just be a pawn in Tony Blair et al's evil plans to harm and kill children except his own? How about the Center for Disease Control and Prevention then:

"Immunization is one of the most effective ways parents can protect their infants and children from potentially serious diseases. Over the years, immunization has saved millions of lives and prevented hundreds of millions of cases of disease."

Or might they be in on it as well? I take it you are aware of these organizations and what they do, right? And I can assure you they don't collect their data "from the vaccine manufacturers", by the way.

I do not support my case with reference to third party research but I do read these out of interest and therefore accept your challenge to show research that vaccines are ineffective:
http://www.naturalnews.com/022617.html
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/281/1/61/

The JAMA article has absolutely nothing to do with vaccination safety and effectiveness, at all, and I found the NaturalNews article, written by a layperson with no medical training, really quite absurd and laughable:

"Yet, there is no documentation showing that death rates from these diseases have been improved by vaccinations. As the data from the AMA itself shows, there is every reason to believe that these vaccinations are not effective, [!? is she on drugs?] that we need to look to other reasons for the decrease in these disease deaths."

Bull Feces!

Strangely the AMA (the American Medical Association), not that they might know more than this layperson , seems to have drawn a completely different conclusion:

"Immunization has been one of the most successful public health advances of the century. Very few persons living in the United States are now hurt by or die from vaccine-preventable diseases."

I did a little digging into what all the NaturalNews author's degrees meant, by the way:

"Heidi Stevenson, BSc, DIHom, FBIH"

The only legitimate one obtainable from an accredited college or university is her Bachelor's degree. The other two were purchased over the internet or by mail using cheque or maybe credit card/PayPal . The FBIH one only costs $140 for three full years and even comes with a real, genuine, engraved medallion with ribbon at no extra charge. [Think I'm joking? See the bottom of page 20 here of the application form, which is page 22 of 29 in PDF form]

[tizer]

"Immunization saves the lives of more than 3 million people worldwide each year, and it saves millions more from suffering illness and lifelong disability"

I do not accept this statistic at face value unless I have a breakdown of the figure with reference to countries, ages, and socio-economic groups. Such a blank statement without supporting analysis with regard to the aforementioned parameters is meaningless even though it is “held by all general medical/scientific communities”

With regard to Tony Blair, the man is a hypocrite and a liar. Hundreds of our servicemen have lost their lives in military misadventures as a result of his lies. Would he have been so eager to go to war in Iraq if his eldest son and daughter were in the military and on frontline duty?

As for the CDC are they totally independent? Do they not get any funding from the Pharmaceutical companies?

Do you seriously think that I would deliberately put my own, my family’s and my dogs’ lives at risk by refusing vaccinations.
Returning from South Africa where AIDs and TB are rife, the nurse at my son’s school noting this fact rushed round in a panic to our house. She administered a Heaf test and when we presented ourselves for the results – which were negative, as expected – the doctor at the government health clinic tried to bully us into having a TB jab. When we declined, she became threatening and said that we would be a danger to the community. We stood our ground. It is 14 years since this incident and we have been a danger to no one let alone to ourselves.
Most people would have given into such threats. You cannot make a reasoned decision based on fear. This is how drug manufacturers in collusion with the government operate. Surely the fact that Doctors and pharmaceutical drugs are the fourth cause of death in America is enough to wake people up to their deceptions.

This from the British Medical Journal might be an eye opener...
DRUGS RESEARCH: Companies spend a tiny fraction on the poor and the developing world… so how can they say that they are out to eradicate disease.

Any of you who desperately cling to the hope that the pharmaceutical industry is there for the benefit of mankind need to look at the latest statistics for global health research. While health research spending is rising by about $10bn (£5.5bn) every year, virtually none of it is going towards the diseases that afflict the poor and the developing world.

In 2003 – the most recent year when figures were available – around $129bn (£72bn) was spent on health research, but less than 7 per cent went on communicable diseases. The rest, which came from drug companies and government agencies, concentrated on the ‘lifestyle’ diseases of the West. The Global Forum for Health research reckons that the remainder came from philanthropic and non-profit organisations such as the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

If so, that means that drug companies spend almost nothing every year on diseases of the developing world and of the poor – those sectors where they can’t get a handsome return.

(Source: British Medical Journal, 2006; 333: 936).

Follow the money, I say!

[Mahk]

The topic of the thread is vaccinations. Please stay on topic.

[Mahk]

As for the CDC are they totally independent? Do they not get any funding from the Pharmaceutical companies?

Yes, they are totally independent and don't receive funding from pharmaceutical companies. They are part of the US government hence their URL address structure, ".gov" : http://www.cdc.gov/about/

If one is of the mind "Tony Blair and all the worlds' governments are out to get us" then they would indeed be "in on it" as well, since they represent the branch of the US government that "supposedly" monitors disease and tries to stop its spread (or so they would have us believe).

[tizer]

I don’t trust my government any more than I trust second-hand car salesmen. They have been accused of sleaze, graft, dishonesty, cover-ups, etc. With such a record I certainly wouldn’t put my trust in them, or any of their institutions, with regard to my health. I take responsibility for my own health and that of my loved ones. There is no overt conspiracy by them but their deeds can at times lead to undesirable consequences.

Modern medicine is an industry that wants more, not less, disease to treat. They are not interested in disease prevention. If everyone was healthy there won’t be a market for medicines and therefore the industry would become redundant. Not so? According to Corporate Watch, Fortune magazine has declared the world’s biggest drug company, Pfizer the “fifth best wealth-creator” in America. The question is, who benefits from this “creation of wealth”?

Another shocking fact, that few consider, is that virtually every major pharmaceutical company has a corresponding branch that creates the toxins and poisons that contribute to the chronic diseases their drugs and medical devices treat. These huge transnational companies profit not only from the sale of products such as pesticides, herbicides and GM crops, but also from the symptoms and chronic illnesses that they can trigger. ‘Agent Orange’ the chemical defoliant used with such devastating effects by the US in the Vietnam War, was manufactured by Monsanto whose pharmaceutical division is Pharmacia.

There are many so called ‘primitive’ people such as the San people in Namibia, the Australian aborigines and similar groups in South America and Asia, as well as the Amish who live in North America, who eschew modern technology and medicine and yet live happy and healthy lives. They don’t fight wars; they don’t have a problem with crime, juvenile delinquency or the other social ills our so called ‘advanced’ societies suffer with. How is it that they get by without being obsessed with medicines and vaccinations? Perhaps they have something to teach us!

[tizer]

Click on this site for those wishing to continue the debate on vaccinations:
http://www.nvic.org

also
http://www.naturalnews.com/021571.html

[Mahk]

Click on this site for those wishing to continue the debate on vaccinations:
http://www.nvic.org

also
http://www.naturalnews.com/021571.html

^The author of the second link, "health ranger" Mike Adams with his reassuring smile, a layperson with zero medical or scientific background, training, knowledge, or degrees [unless he also shares some of those on-line purchasable "Certified Ouija Board Reader" types of degrees, like I exposed at least one other author of his "NaturalNews" site uses, in post#211], gives two idiotic "bullet points" on his "Health Tips" page:

"-Take absolutely no prescription drugs or pharmaceuticals whatsoever"

"-No visits to M.D.s or western medical doctors "

[Along with, count them, 12 different product endorsements (or "Top Picks") he insists he receives no "funding" from. ]

Depending on if his claimed readership of 800,000 people worldwide is true, and not knowing how many of them he has successfully duped with this stupidity, I'd say he's probably personally responsible for the deaths of dozens if not hundreds who may have blindly followed this "sage" advice.

"Got cancer? Got arthritis, diabetes, mood disorders, heart disease, or any other maladies for that matter? Don't see medical doctors or take their medicines, for goodness sake, buy this water purifier instead or these worthless vegetable powder pills I endorse (and get a kick back on for every one sold, or even clicked on, by providing direct links to purchase them in my "reviews" of them found in the bottom right column of my website.)" [not a real quote]

Remember folks: "follow the money".

P.S. Although not a vegetarian, Mike doesn't eat mammals. I guess that makes him a pesco-ovo-lacto-reptilian-avian-arian". Try and say that 5 times fast!

[Mahk]

Click on this site for those wishing to continue the debate on vaccinations:
http://www.nvic.org

*Ahem* There is no "debate", plain and simple; the scientific and medical communities of the world universally agree immunization programs are overall safe and effective [barring an occasional hiccup like last year's flu shot lacking a third of its protective qualities due to the unforeseen manufacturing glitch mentioned earlier in the thread] saving millions of lives annually. Sure you can find lots of independent kook/quack doctors and websites like NVIC that claim otherwise, or believe in ghosts for that matter, but what you will not find is

A) any country
B) any major news organization
C) any medical school/college/university
D) any general medical institution
E) or any general public health organization

that thinks differently.

I challenge you to prove me wrong.

(Sorry, blog sites, forum entries, and commercial venues hocking "snake oil" medicines or providing links to them like "NaturalNews" don't constitute "major news organizations" in my book. By "major" I mean news agencies like the BBC, CNN, etc. Medical institutions would mean the AMA, the BMA, NHS etc. Universities would mean Oxford, Harvard Medical schools, for example. General public health organizations would mean the WHO, the UN, etc. not little, rinky-dink, nobody outfits like NVIC with singular agendas of bad mouthing and smearing immunization programs.
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By successfully scaring people into thinking the MMR jab is bad and keeping at least a quarter of the UK population from receiving this important, safe compound, the anti vax crusaders, such as NVIC , are now responsible for over 1000 cases of measles [often with dire complications such as pneumonia, meningitis, encephalitis (an inflammation of the brain that can lead to convulsions, and can leave a child deaf or mentally retarded) , and even death] annually.

Congratulations, anti vax crusaders, on hitting the 1000 cases/year mark in 2008; your scaremongering which prevents the proper community MMR uptake goal to be achieved causing herd immunity is working:



BBC:

"What has caused the increase?

Experts say measles is spreading more easily because of low uptake of the MMR vaccine over the past decade."

[tizer]

You demolish your arguments by the character assignation you conduct against the Editor of the website NaturalNews, Mike Adams. Do you quarrel with any of his Health Tips? Let’s debate them rather than run him down and attack his qualifications or lack of them. One does not have to be a M.D. to express opinions on the value of vaccinations or pharmaceutical products in general. Furthermore, what is wrong with giving product endorsements and receiving kick-backs? He certainly won’t become as rich as those working in Big Pharma. Why don’t we debate the issues rather than the person?

The founder of NVIC set up the organisation to bring to public attention the fact that vaccinations can and do have fatal consequences as has happened to her own child. Why do you refer to her as a quack? Surely she should be allowed to voice her opinion based on her personal experience and not be slated for this. Let's debate the issues she raises.

I am not medically qualified, but I have a scientific background (Applied Physics) and was on the staff of the faculty of Electronic Engineering at Middlesex University. From where I sit, scientific medicine is anything but rational. On studying medical literature I have come to the conclusion that modern medicine is not a science. For all the science-speak in medicine about painstakingly controlled study and meticulous peer review, for all the attempts to cloak medicine in the weighty cloak of science, a good deal of what we regard as standard medical practice today amounts to little more than modern day voodoo.

That said, one area that conventional medicine has shown signs of progress in is the diagnosis and treatment of individuals needing crisis care. Advancements in surgical procedures have not only saved many lives but also brought back a decent quality of life to millions. However, it is important to bear in mind that this type of care represents an extremely small area in comparison to all the other health diseases it has to face.

As long as the medical profession remains under the grip of the pharmaceutical industry, the public will continue to be denied other treatment options for their health and disease treatment. There are thousands of people who have sought treatment in alternative health care with positive outcomes. I can refer you to this site as an example:

http://www.emofree.com

[Mahk]

You demolish your arguments by the character assignation you conduct against the Editor of the website NaturalNews, Mike Adams. Do you quarrel with any of his Health Tips? Let’s debate them rather than run him down and attack his qualifications or lack of them.

Yes, two in particular, perhaps you missed where I pointed them out:

"* Take absolutely no prescription drugs or pharmaceuticals whatsoever

* No visits to M.D.s or western medical doctors "

They are bullet points #9 and #10 on his "Health Tips" page I already provided a link to, but in case you missed that too, here it is again:

Mike Adams, expert layperson, "health ranger", and world famous pesco-ovo-lacto-reptilian-avian-arian Health Tips page.
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On a side note, is anybody else following this thread besides me and tizer? No one else has contributed for some time.

[Quantum Mechanic]

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On a side note, is anybody else following this thread besides me and tizer? No one else has contributed for some time.

Yes. But then I know that I don't have my words together in a good enough sentence, and that you're going to reply. But I have been following the vaccination scare for quite some time.

[snivelingchild]

Me too. Reading but nothing of value to add.

[Ruby Rose]

I'm dipping in, but I think you and Tizer have reached entrenched positions here, so I'm not sure the debate is actually going anywhere any more, so don't feel there's much point contributing.

[tizer]

Personally I don’t have any problem with the bullet points you pointed out, as I do not use prescription drugs and very rarely visit M.D.s. I take responsibility for my own health care and have successfully cured myself of diseases that I was told could only be fixed by surgery. It left M.D.s shaking their heads in disbelief when they saw the results of my actions.

It is important for you to understand one important principle in resolving illness and that is to focus on finding the underlying cause of the problem and then seeking to understand it so you can resolve it by addressing its cause. What many people do not realize is that it is possible to maintain total health by avoiding unnecessary drugs and by gaining a comprehensive, clear and researched understanding of good nutrition and proper lifestyle choices. The internet is a valuable resource to find information regarding any illness and from which one can then choose the best course of action.

[Quantum Mechanic]

So, in short, I'm supposed to google my way out of epilepsy?

[Mahk]

^ LOL!

Epilepsy? Oh that's an easy one. Get 6-9 hours of sleep and do daily meditation and it will go away. You have to heal yourself from within. ["Health Tips" bullet points #3 and #4 from the guru.]

If of course for some odd reason that suggestion seems to fail, don't blame Mr Health Ranger. He didn't make a mistake; you simply weren't trying hard enough, you see.

[Blaming the victim is standard policy for these voodoo witch doctor types. It's how they can never be proven wrong or be exposed as the quacks that they really are.]

"Sorry, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, little Timmy died from pneumonia because you weren't waving the magic wand like I showed you. Please be more careful next time."

[snivelingchild]

That's an insult to voodoo and its practitioners.

[Quantum Mechanic]

^ LOL!

Epilepsy? Oh that's an easy one. Get 6-9 hours of sleep and do daily meditation and it will go away. You have to heal yourself from within. ["Health Tips" bullet points #3 and #4 from the guru.]

If of course for some odd reason that suggestion seems to fail, don't blame Mr Health Ranger. He didn't make a mistake; you simply weren't trying hard enough, you see.

[Blaming the victim is standard policy for these voodoo witch doctor types. It's how they can never be proven wrong or be exposed as the quacks that they really are.]

"Sorry, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, little Timmy died from pneumonia because you weren't waving the magic wand like I showed you. Please be more careful next time."

Especially not easy when you have some kind of sleep disorder, and no matter how much sleep hygiene you follow (no coffee or alcohol and very rarely tea), exercise, bright light in the morning and low light in evening, set "bed time" and "wake time", etc., you keep falling asleep a few hours later each "day" until you cycle throughout the whole week. (Though still getting a good 8+ hours a "day"!) Darn, guess I'm just not thinking positive enough!

[Haniska]

I went through the "Don't trust medicine." phase myself.
An aspiring raw vegan and naturalist I figured all humans were perfect and we only had to follow the rules for optimal health.
I still believe that we have to follow the rules. A person cannot expect to have optimal health when they are not getting enough vitamins, minerals, exercise, sleep, etc required for life.
That is that.
And putting aside for a moment that it is hard to live an optimal lifestyle, people are born with deformities. I watch what I eat and make sure to eat small meals throughout the day to keep my sugar level. This helps my attention span. I go to bed at 10pm and get up at 6am. This helps.
The benefits are hard to measure as that is the baseline, but actively doing these things benefits my attention span about 7% as much as taking medicine.

Aside: I have a lot of respect for surgeons, I mean, seriously, who else can replace broken parts?

[tizer]

There is no need for mockery, Mahk. Diet and exercise do play an important part in the maintenance of good health. However for a specific illness, such as epilepsy, one needs to find the underlying cause of the dis-ease and choose the therapy that one intuitively feels will cure the problem. No doubt, Quantum Mechanic, you are being treated by conventional medicine and it has obviously not helped you.

Those who scoff and point to unsuccessful cases or of people who have died following their choice of alternative care rather than conventional medical treatment fail to place a similar burden on conventional medical to explain those who fail to heal and the thousands who die each year under conventional medical care and those given up as incurable by medical practitioners, some of whom recover after seeking alternative treatment.

Several years ago a friend of ours was diagnosed with cancer. I suggested to her husband that she seek an alternative route rather than the usual chemo-radiotherapy route. The oncologist scoffed at the suggestion, “you’re joking of course blah, blah, blah …” about 18 months after making that remark we attended the lady’s funeral.

We have another friend who was diagnosed with breast cancer over a year ago. I likewise suggested to her to try an alternative route to chemo-radio. She did not entertain this idea putting her faith instead in conventional medicine. When she was last seen about 3 months ago, judging from the way she appeared, it is unlikely that she will be around by next Christmas.

My cousin is a doctor (General Physician). His wife died of cancer about 2 years after she was first diagnosed with the disease. I can quote many more cases of people I knew who died or failed to be cured by conventional medicine

My wife is a nurse and she has first-hand experience of death and dying. She knows all too well that there are no cures for dread diseases, only palliative care!

Mahk, you have not challenged my example of people who live quite successfully without modern medicine. What have you say about them?

Here is an extract from the Mormons (a.k.a. Latter-day Saints) on the subject of Cancer Prevention:
“Science has also looked specifically at Latter-day Saints to see if our health practices influence our chances of getting cancer. The results are encouraging.
When looking at Latter-day Saints living in Utah, one study found a 24 percent lower rate of developing cancer. Looking at just smoking-related cancers, the study found a 50 percent lower incidence in men and a 60 percent lower incidence in women compared to the US rate.
A University of California Los Angeles (UCLA) study of Latter-day Saint high priests in California found they were about 50 percent less likely to die from cancer and 70 percent less likely to die of tobacco-related cancers than the general population.
Life expectancy for Latter-day Saint males living in Utah is 7.3 years longer than their non-LDS counterparts. Female Latter-day Saints appear to live longer too—an average of 5.8 years”.

[Mahk]

Mahk, you have not challenged my example of people who live quite successfully without modern medicine. What have you say about them?

This thread is about vaccinations, if you want to talk about how you don't understand why individual stories about a FOAF, anecdotal evidence, urban legends, and hearsay are all pretty much worthless, aren't permissible in a court of law, and are routinely shunned by scientists, then start another thread.

I'm still waiting, tizer, for you to name any expert collective body such as

A) any country
B) any major news organization
C) any medical school/college/university
D) any general medical institution
E) or any general public health organization

that opposes vaccinations. Find any yet?

[snivelingchild]

You are closing your mind to arguments about anything related to what you are talking about, (which they are) and expecting someone to argue based on what you think the bottom line is. Furthermore, you have ignored that fact that most people on this thread have said that vaccines shouldn't ALWAYS be taken (that the individual have to weigh the consequences v. risks for themselves, and their INDIVIDUAL case) and continue to assume that anyone who is against the way vaccines are used is against any person of the face of this planet should never ever take a vaccine under any circumstance, or they will die.

[cvC]

My wife is a nurse and she has first-hand experience of death and dying. She knows all too well that there are no cures for dread diseases, only palliative care!

Would you believe that a cure for cancer was invented by a genius called Royal Raymond Rife in the first half of the last century, but was then suppressed? You can read more about it at the link below and from which this is an extract:

In 1934, the University of Southern California appointed a Special Medical Research Committee to bring terminal cancer patients from Pasadena County Hospital to Rife's San Diego Laboratory and clinic for treatment. The team included doctors and pathologists assigned to examine the patients - if still alive - in 90 days.

After the 90 days of treatment, the Committee concluded that 86.5% of the patients had been completely cured. The treatment was then adjusted and the remaining 13.5% of the patients also responded within the next four weeks. The total recovery rate using Rife's technology was 100%.

http://www.rense.com/health/rife.htm

[Quantum Mechanic]

Diet and exercise do play an important part in the maintenance of good health.

Of course, and we have all heard this from our doctors I am sure, in addition to it being common sense for most people.

However for a specific illness, such as epilepsy, one needs to find the underlying cause of the dis-ease and choose the therapy that one intuitively feels will cure the problem.

Rather than select a therapy based on an intuitive feeling, I would rather go based upon evidence-based studies and the recommendations of a doctor (or two) who is familiar with my symptoms/case and any relevant records/info/test results.

No doubt, Quantum Mechanic, you are being treated by conventional medicine and it has obviously not helped you.

One thing is right - yes, I am being treated with what is considered conventional medicine. Wonder why the assumption that it does not work for me? Seems strange, considering that prior to treatment I would have at least one or two tonic clonic seizures a month, and several simple partial and complex partial seizures a week. During treatment, I haven't had a tonic clonic seizure, and only one, occasionally two simple or complex partial seizures in a month (these latter kind don't involve falling down, and often don't involve losing consciousness).

And I'm no fan of the pill-for-every-ill mindset, but when it makes sense to take an effective treatment to allow you to get along in life without seizures getting ever more frequent, or whatever the health problem is, then I drop that resistance and look for the most sensible option. And when it comes to disease prevention, a combination of healthy lifestyle and vaccination falls into that umbrella.

[Mahk]

You are closing your mind to arguments about anything related to what you are talking about.

There has been zero scientific evidence presented, other than blog entries, fake or rinky-dink "news" groups, forum quotes, and anecdotal, unconfirmable stories of "My friend's, cousin's, neighbor's ,wife's, son had a vaccine and then developed a learning disability in later life so we know that vaccines caused that", and the like.

Furthermore, you have ignored that fact that most people on this thread have said that vaccines shouldn't ALWAYS be taken (that the individual have to weigh the consequences v. risks for themselves, and their INDIVIDUAL case) and continue to assume that anyone who is against the way vaccines are used is against any person of the face of this planet should never ever take a vaccine under any circumstance, or they will die.

Incorrect, those "rights" argument just haven't been the focus recently, since only Tizer and I have been active. Vaccine scaremonger sites like NVIC often put on a lot of window dressing implying they are "just about giving people a choice" and throwing around the word "freedom" but when I actually analyze their "factoids" content there is nothing but a lot of pseudo science mumbo jumbo, half truths without citations included, and plain old scaremongering.

There is a huge difference between the government insisting people wear safety belts (a law here where I live at least) vs. insisting that schoolchildren get immunized against measles. If a deluded individual falls prey to the anti vax crusaders' nonsense ["Don't do it! Tony Blair and the US/UK governments are trying to harm you!"] and refuses the jab (shot) they are needlessly endangering my kid's health by sending their non-inoculated kid to my kids' school. The MMR jab, like all vaccines, isn't a 100% guarantee against infection but it improves one's odds tremendously. This is also true of safety belts; you are not guaranteed you won't be harmed in a crash but your odds are improved. Sending my kids to a school full of non-inoculated kids with paranoid and delusional parents who refused the immunization jeopardizes my kids health! because herd immunity can not be achieved. These delusional parents are analogously increasing the likelihood of car crashes. Yes my kid wearing the safety belt gives me some protection but I'd rather there not be any crashes in the first place!

If people have the right to refuse any vaccine at will, then I get the right to insist they have to home-school their kids and keep their children away from mine. They can jeopardize their own kid's health if they want, but they have no right to jeopardize my family because of their superstitious, unscientific fears.

We've already totally eradicated many diseases, such as small pox, thanks to vaccinations, but because of the poor uptake of the vaccines thanks to the efforts of the scaremongers we can't even achieve herd immunity to some diseases like measles, which is the first step to eradication.

[snivelingchild]

You have the right to refuse others the ability to go to public school?!?! And THEY are being crazy paranoid? Thank GOD the government doesn't think like this. Just so you know, kids don't have to be immunized to go to school.

[Mahk]

You have the right to refuse others the ability to go to public school?!?! And THEY are being crazy paranoid? Thank GOD the government doesn't think like this. Just so you know, kids don't have to be immunized to go to school.

In America, yes they do, Sniv. It varies from state to state, and there are religious and "unusual health condition" exceptions in place, but the government sides with me on this important issue of public health. They are generically called "school laws":

"School immunization laws

Each state has immunization requirements, sometimes called "school laws," that must be met before a child may enter school. These may include vaccination against diphtheria, pertussis (whooping cough), tetanus (lockjaw), Haemophilus influenzae type b, measles, mumps, rubella, polio, and hepatitis B. Some states have added varicella (chicken pox) vaccination to the list of required vaccines. Smallpox vaccination was once required, but the disease has been so successfully eradicated that this vaccination is no longer needed...

These required vaccinations don't just protect the children in a classroom. They protect the teachers, parent volunteers, visiting grandparents, and everyone else who enters the classroom or provides services to the school. The blanket of protection provided by rubella ("German measles") vaccination is especially important for women who are pregnant. Rubella can cause serious effects on the developing fetus, including deafness, blindness, heart disease, brain damage, or other serious problems, including miscarriage. Today's middle-aged adults may remember how common this disease was before the rubella vaccine became available. Rubella was feared for its effects, including ear infection, pneumonia, diarrhea, seizures, brain damage, and death."

from: Center for Disease Control and Prevention

(part of the US government)

[cvC]

I'm still waiting, tizer, for you to name any expert collective body such as

A) any country
B) any major news organization
C) any medical school/college/university
D) any general medical institution
E) or any general public health organization

that opposes vaccinations. Find any yet?

The link below is to a post in another thread in which you made the following statement and I'm still waiting for you to provide the evidence described and as I requested:

Overwhelming evidence shows that fluoride toothpaste and optimal fluoridation levels in our public drinking water significantly reduces (but does not eliminate) our risk of tooth decay ("dental caries", aka cavities).

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...0&postcount=79

The following is from an article I remember seeing last year and which is about a case in which the US government does seem to have conceded that there was a link between vaccinations and autism:

After years of insisting there is no evidence to link vaccines with the onset of autism spectrum disorder (ASD), the US government has quietly conceded a vaccine-autism case in the Court of Federal Claims.

The unprecedented concession was filed on November 9, and sealed to protect the plaintiff's identify. It was obtained through individuals unrelated to the case.

The claim, one of 4,900 autism cases currently pending in Federal "Vaccine Court," was conceded by US Assistant Attorney General Peter Keisler and other Justice Department officials, on behalf of the Department of Health and Human Services, the "defendant" in all Vaccine Court cases.

The child's claim against the government -- that mercury-containing vaccines were the cause of her autism -- was supposed to be one of three "test cases" for the thimerosal-autism theory currently under consideration by a three-member panel of Special Masters, the presiding justices in Federal Claims Court.

Keisler wrote that medical personnel at the HHS Division of Vaccine Injury Compensation (DVIC) had reviewed the case and "concluded that compensation is appropriate."

The doctors conceded that the child was healthy and developing normally until her 18-month well-baby visit, when she received vaccinations against nine different diseases all at once (two contained thimerosal).

Days later, the girl began spiraling downward into a cascade of illnesses and setbacks that, within months, presented as symptoms of autism, including: No response to verbal direction; loss of language skills; no eye contact; loss of "relatedness;" insomnia; incessant screaming; arching; and "watching the florescent lights repeatedly during examination.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-...i_b_88323.html

[Quantum Mechanic]

I don't have my words too organized (quite early), but this blog responds to that, with this quote in particular of note:

David once again insists that HHS medical personnel “conceded that the “cause” of Hannah’s “autistic encephalopathy” was “vaccine induced fever and immune stimulation that exceeded metabolic reserves.”“
Where?
I asked twice in the comment thread that followed where this HHS document was and if we, the general public, could read for ourselves – and in context – these words. I am not suggesting David is lying at all. However, by his own admission David has been wrong more than once on what were previously firmly held opinions. This is nothing that should be being speculated about. We need to see this document.
Lastly, Gerberding, Offit et al were quite right to use the phrase ‘features of autism’. That is the phrase that both the HHS report and the case study (co-authored Jon Poling) used. Some say it is hair splitting but I don’t believe that saying someone has autism is the same as saying someone has features of autism. I’ve expounded on this before for those interested but suffice it to say I have a similar eye colour to Clive Owen. This doesn’t make me Clive Owen (much to my wife’s disappointment).

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?cat=80&paged=2

[Prawnil]

Say I was putting together a Moderator's Handbook, and was working on my new fun chapter called "The moments a contributor steps over the boundary past which the thread is doomed for locking.", this

If people have the right to refuse any vaccine at will, then I get the right to insist they have to home-school their kids and keep their children away from mine.

would probably go straight in.
I am personally well enough convinced that vaccination works, but not that the unconvinced ought to face quarantine. Pharma controveries aren't trivial, and give people ample reason to be forgivably, not-irrationally suspicious.

If the school situation this revolves around is not hypothetical, and you have a fair idea of vaccine uptake %, plus the best estimate for Herd-effect threshold %, and that opt-out numbers exceed this, then there's a reason to **** yourself. I'm not convinced that a tirade against the "superstitious", "delusional" anti-vaxers endangering our childrens' lives on the basis of an imaginary school "full" of antivax kids is any less paranoid "scaremongering" (especially if school laws probably preclude these uninoculated kids' numbers being significant in most schools).
Laying on thick the ad hominem nonsense you've warned other posters off previously does nothing for your argument (though I don't, basically, disagree with you).

[Mahk]

The link below is to a post in another thread in which you made the following statement and I'm still waiting for you to provide the evidence described and as I requested:

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...0&postcount=79

This is a vaccination thread. Post more at the fluoride thread, if you wish, but keep fluoride discussions out of this thread please.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
News flash. This just in:

Scientists now agree that the vast majority of the general population is susceptible to falsely attributing illnesses that they contract to unrelated, coincidental incidents in their lives:

"Last week my biopsy for liver cancer came back and showed I have a growth the doctors think is malignant. Just the week prior to that a different doctor scanned over my chest with a mysterious instrument like probe I am unfamiliar with that I suspect emitted a strange radiation into my chest cavity which most likely induced the cancer in my otherwise healthy body.

Here's a link to a safety organization that shows how radiation exposure induces cancer, as proof:http://www.radar3.com/ []

I am still researching if I have grounds for a class action suit against this dangerous liver cancer inducing doctor because of the use of this dangerous probe he refers to as a "steth-o-scope".

[Mahk]

Laying on thick the ad hominem nonsense you've warned other posters off previously does nothing for your argument (though I don't, basically, disagree with you).

Is there a more polite way to say a group of people, the anti vax crusaders and their sites I monitor, are paranoid/delusional/misguided? I can't think of any but will gladly consider alternative more polite words that have the same meaning.

Would you be equally troubled if I said I thought people who believe in personal demons and gremlins were paranoid/delusional/misguided, or is it OK to talk about them that way but not anti-vax crusaders?

To me they are exactly the same, science doesn't back either group, however only one of those two belief systems threatens my own personal heath and safety and that of my family's and my government agrees with me by the implementation of school laws which I support.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beware the anti vax crusaders many disguises:

"I’m referring, of course, to the antivaccinationist movement, and the rally was known as the “Green Our Vaccines” rally, led by the celebrity couple Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey and organized and funded by Talk About Curing Autism (TACA), Generation Rescue (upon whose board McCarthy now sits), and a panoply of other groups that promulgate the myth that either vaccines containing mercury in the form of their thimerosal preservative or vaccines themselves cause autism.

“Green Our Vaccines”: Anti-vaccine, not “pro-safe vaccine”

The first thing that becomes apparent to any neutral observer is that the organizers themselves clearly went to great lengths to deny that they are “anti-vaccine.” Indeed, the overall mantra of the march appeared to be “I’m not anti-vaccine; I’m pro-safe vaccine,” a mantra that was to be waved in front of the press during the time before, during, and after the march like a talisman to ward off skeptics. Indeed, a couple of days before the rally David Kirby, chief apologist for the “mercury causes autism” movement, ex-travel writer for the New York Times and author of a book (Evidence of Harm: Mercury in Vaccines and the Autism Epidemic, A Medical Controversy) that arguably did as much to promote the claim that mercury in vaccines causes autism as Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.’s execrable bit of fear-mongering that appeared in Salon.com and Rolling Stone almost exactly three years ago did, tried unconvincingly to argue that he isn’t anti-vaccine. Meanwhile Jenny McCarthy herself has been frequently quoted as saying:

What I really am is “anti-toxins” in the vaccines. I do believe that there is a correlation between vaccinations and autism. I don’t think it’s the sole cause, but I think they’re triggering–it’s triggering–autism in these kids. A really great example is…is, sometimes obesity can trigger diabetes. I do believe that vaccines can trigger autism…It’s so much more than just mercury. That is one ingredient in the recipe of autism…People don’t realize that there is aluminum, ether, antifreeze, still mercury, in the shots.

I’ve referred to this before in the context of the Generation Rescue ad that first introduced the “Green Our Vaccines” slogan to the world. Indeed, I doff my hat to the organizers at this march they’ve framed the issue with such a wonderfully Orwellian slogan that’s brilliant because of how difficult it is for rational scientists to counter. After all, who doesn’t want “safer” vaccines? No one, of course! Not even the the man who is to antivaccinationists the Devil incarnate, vaccine scientist and defender Paul Offit, would say that he doesn’t want safer vaccines, too. Indeed, he’s spent his career trying to do just that: Develop more effective and safer vaccines. Certainly I can’t argue with making vaccines as safe as possible. They happen to be, by any reasonable measure, remarkably safe right now, but there’s always room for improvement. What the press and others at whom this crunchy eco-friendly message of reassurance and seeming reason that fits right in with the current mood of the country is aimed don’t realize is just one thing. After all, if there are indeed all sorts of horrible toxins in vaccines, shouldn’t we get rid of them? It all sounds so measured, so reasonable, and so conservative.

Too bad it’s about as disingenuous as it gets. Like Steve Novella, I have no doubt that Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey mean well, but I agree that it’s not enough to mean well. There’s a famous saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. My usually corollary to this saying is that good intentions coupled with misinformation and self-righteousness are the straightest and surest route to hell that I can think of, and among the best examples of this corollary are parents who have been misled by the pseudoscience of the cottage industry of autism quackery that depends on the belief that vaccines cause autism for its profitability. Couple that with the arrogance of ignorance, which Jenny McCarthy exhibits in abundance and which apparently drives her to conclude that attending the University of Google qualifies her to shout down doctors and scientists on Larry King’s show, and you have a truly toxic brew of self-righteously misdirected anger."

Science-Based Medicine full article is at the link.

[snivelingchild]

In my state, at least, you can refuse and it doesn't have to be on a religious basis. I assumed there must be a way to refuse in most states.

[cvC]

This is a vaccination thread. Post more at the fluoride thread, if you wish, but keep fluoride discussions out of this thread please.

Your failure to provide something that I'd requested in another thread is relevant to your harangue of another member for not providing something that you'd asked for here, one difference being that he hadn't claimed it to exist in the first place. I have, as I've said, already made the request for you to provide the "overwhelming evidence" you'd claimed for something in the relevant thread.

[Mahk]

^Oh, OK, I guess that makes more sense to me now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[Sorry to be slightly off topic for a brief moment folks but cvC seems to want the "overwhelming evidence that Fluoride is safe and effective" claim I made in another thread backed here, so here goes]:

A) Here is a link to a list of 358 references including many scientific studies published in peer reviewed medical and dental journals [no blogs! ] of studies which support fluoridation as being a safe, effective, and inexpensive means in the fight against tooth decay: [see pages #58 through #67 of this PDF file]

B) Here is a different list of "National and International Organizations That Recognize the Public Health Benefits of Community Water Fluoridation for Preventing Dental Decay":

Academy of Dentistry International
Academy of General Dentistry
Academy for Sports Dentistry
Alzheimer’s Association
America’s Health Insurance Plans
American Academy of Family Physicians
American Academy of Nurse Practitioners
American Academy of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology
American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Pediatric Dentistry
American Academy of Periodontology
American Academy of Physician Assistants
American Association for Community Dental Programs
American Association for Dental Research
American Association for Health Education
American Association for the Advancement of Science
American Association of Endodontists
American Association of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons
American Association of Orthodontists
American Association of Public Health Dentistry
American Association of Women Dentists
American Cancer Society
American College of Dentists
American College of Physicians–American Society
of Internal Medicine
American College of Preventive Medicine
American College of Prosthodontists
American Council on Science and Health
American Dental Assistants Association
American Dental Association
American Dental Education Association
American Dental Hygienists’ Association
American Dietetic Association
American Federation of Labor and Congress
of Industrial Organizations
American Hospital Association
American Legislative Exchange Council
American Medical Association
American Nurses Association
American Osteopathic Association
American Pharmacists Association
American Public Health Association
American School Health Association
American Society for Clinical Nutrition
American Society for Nutritional Sciences
American Student Dental Association
American Water Works Association
Association for Academic Health Centers
Association of American Medical Colleges
Association of Clinicians for the Underserved
Association of Maternal and Child Health Programs
Association of State and Territorial Dental Directors
Association of State and Territorial Health Officials
Association of State and Territorial Public Health
Nutrition Directors
British Fluoridation Society
Canadian Dental Association
Canadian Dental Hygienists Association
Canadian Medical Association
Canadian Nurses Association
Canadian Paediatric Society
Canadian Public Health Association
Child Welfare League of America
Children’s Dental Health Project
Chocolate Manufacturers Association
Consumer Federation of America
Council of State and Territorial Epidemiologists
Delta Dental Plans Association
FDI World Dental Federation
Federation of American Hospitals
Hispanic Dental Association
Indian Dental Association (U.S.A.)
Institute of Medicine
International Association for Dental Research
International Association for Orthodontics
International College of Dentists
March of Dimes Birth Defects Foundation
National Association of Community Health Centers
National Association of County and City Health Officials
National Association of Dental Assistants
National Association of Local Boards of Health
National Association of Social Workers
National Confectioners Association
National Council Against Health Fraud
National Dental Assistants Association
National Dental Association
National Dental Hygienists’ Association
National Down Syndrome Congress
National Down Syndrome Society
National Eating Disorders Association
National Foundation of Dentistry for the Handicapped
National Head Start Association
National Health Law Program
National Healthy Mothers, Healthy Babies Coalition
Oral Health America
Robert Wood Johnson Foundation
Society for Public Health Education
Society of American Indian Dentists
Special Care Dentistry
Academy of Dentistry for Persons with Disabilities
American Association of Hospital Dentists
American Society for Geriatric Dentistry
The Children’s Health Fund
The Dental Health Foundation (of California)
U.S. Department of Defense
U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs
U.S. Public Health Service
Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA)
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
National Institute of Dental and Craniofacial Research (NIDCR)
World Federation of Orthodontists
World Health Organization

What I was challenging tizer to find was a similar such orgaization, just one, such as these, that opposes vaccinations. There aren't any because in the world of science, medicine, and public health there is no "debate", no controversay, despite the claims of many anti-vax groups otherwise. That was my point.

[cvC]

Sorry to be slightly off topic for a brief moment folks but cvC seems to want the "overwhelming evidence that Fluoride is safe and effective" claim I made in another thread backed here

No, I have not asked you to back up your claim about fluoride here. What I did do was to refer to your failure to do so in the relevant thread in response to your harangue of another member for not coming up with something that you'd demanded here and which he hadn't claimed to exist in the first place.

Since you have started discussing fluoride here, I'll just quickly provide some evidence from the horse's mouth as it were and this is from an article by a horse breeder who'd moved her stock from a non-fluoridated to a fluoridated area:

The winter of 2003/04 was the first in over 10 that we had snow on the ground all winter. We noticed our outside 100-gallon heated water tank of city water only needed filling every 18 days instead of the usual every day and a half. The horses were eating snow instead of drinking the heated fluoridated water. They knew it was poison. The symptoms in all the horses started leaving.

http://www.slweb.org/ftrcpersonalstories_cathy.html

[snivelingchild]

This shit is dumb.

[Mahk]

Blogs!

[bradders]

as I've said before I do believe in vaccination but I do think it is an individual's choice. That said there is a point where it is not really a parent's choice in all cases. Just like a parent can't chose not to send their children to school/ provide assessed nationally approved education and courts can force children to have medical procedures deemed in their best interests that parents do not wish their children to have (e.g. blood transfusion and Jehovahs witnesses) . The same an apply to vaccination too. This is to ensure that the best interests of the child are looked after at all times. However I have concerns about issues such as line drawing with respect to both the age at which a child becomes self responsible and the types of vaccines/ surgeries that may be compulsory. Some such as the BCG are incredibly important while others such as the flu jab are less important for most age groups.
Looking at flouridation of water from a vaccination perspective I can see the potential for benefit, however there are many who have adverse reactions to flouride in the water and unlike chlorine it does not readily evaporate over short periods of time. As you cannot pass on tooth decay to others transmission is not an issue so it must be an individual's own choice whether or not they use a flouride based prouct. Adding flourideto the water is therefore not the right way to aid dental health, perhaps spending the money on public dental care, health education, providing oral hygiene products would be a better use of resources.

[kriz]

Aside: I have a lot of respect for surgeons, I mean, seriously, who else can replace broken parts?

Well said Haniska.