Fake meat

[celtic]

Hi guys

Does anyone, like me, cringe at the Bacon recipe?

I mean, isnt it a bit ironic, that vegans hanker so much after the long lost taste of pig meat?

I know, I know, what else would you call it.

Dont know to be honest. But I feel very uncomfortable about refrencing any of my foods to animals. It simply perpetuates the problem.

It could be easily shown up as in bad taste, if we bought a robot and said...

"Robot that works exactly like a nigger slave"

or

"Blow up doll that acts exactly like a submissive slut"

or

"Bacon sandwich which tastes exactly like a dead pig"

RACIST

SEXIST

SPECIESIST

What I am trying to say hear is that our language does us no favours.

[tails4wagging]

I've yet to meet a vegan or veggie that drools at the smell of the stuff. I for one, eat cheating rashers. Very nice.

[celtic]

Hi tails4

Cheating rashers????????

Should that not be..HONEST rashers!!!!!!!

Language again!

[PinkFluffyCloud]

I am in two minds about the whole 'fake meats' thing.
I used to love the taste and texture of meat, I can remember that even though I haven't eaten a morsel of it in more than 15 years. However, without soya protein 'meats' I doubt I would have stuck at being veggie as a teenager as I was brought up on 'Meat and 2 Veg' type meals.
Now, I could definitely live without the stuff, and, to be honest, I do feel a bit weird about it these days, it is kind of 'offensive', isn't it??

[John]

I eat some fake meats, but not because I miss meat. I eat them because they are an easy way to have a quick, filling meal. The "fake meat" I eat the most is seitan which is not promoted as being fake meat. I do sometimes feel silly when eating something marketed as fake meat.

[chakra]

It is smoke, grease, and salt that gives bacon it's big appeal. The taste of uncured bacon or ham, such as the so-called "fresh ham" is really a hard one, particularly for the real bacon addict, and something like smoked tofu is really not very appealing to a meat lover at all. They'll definitely tell you so.

Salting and smoking food, or having some tasty convenience item like Smoked Tofurky Deli Slices isn't necessarily a search for a meat substitute or fake meat as it is a desire for the part of the bacon that made it palatable, the vegetarian part - wood smoke and salt.

Then there's those imitation bacon strips that completely replicate both the look - well, they try to anyway - and the texture of bacon. Morningside Farms (there's no farm - it's corporate now) markets this uncanny stuff around here. Real bacon is a hell of a lot cheaper.

But I have to avoid Boca Burgers because they are too much like real hamburgers. Smell, taste and texture. The more creative Thai or Blackbean Burgers are more palatable to me.

If the look of real meat will help to transition people over to a saner life then I applaude it. The animals will be relieved not to have to feed them any longer.

[Tigerlily]

Yes, I bought some Boca burgers and it was okay. But at the store, I saw all these fake meats like fake salami and stuff, and I did think they were a bit silly. Plus, soo expensive.

[Mystic]

Ewww fake meat In Australia, we have these things called 'not bacon' and 'not chicken breast'. I don't think they are vegan anyway, but you should see it - the bacon even has the pretend bit of fat on the edge. It is truly revolting and I don't know why a vegetarian/vegan would even want it. When I went to World Vegan Day, they were serving things like 'beef' in blackbean sauce, not - sausage rolls, which apparently tasted like the real thing and fake chicken breast. They looked so real that I literally started dry-reaching when they wanted me to have a taste. I just couldn't do it!!!!

When I use convenience foods, I use veggie burgers, which are not supposed to resemble hamburgers - the veggies are still in tact! I also use things like spinach and potato rolls instead of sausage rolls - I am just not tempted by the 'mock' stuff. Actually, I think I have a major aversion to it!!!

The only meat replacer I like, if you could call it that - is tempeh. I hate tofu and I don't think I have ever tried seitan. Apparently it is very 'meaty', so I doubt it will be appealing to me - I was always a meat hater since I was small. So I will just stick to my tempeh and my beans and my nuts/seeds thankyou very much

[Mystic]

It is smoke, grease, and salt that gives bacon it's big appeal.

Yesterday, I was out and I bought a salad roll with chargrilled eggplant in it - The eggplant had definately been cured in heaps of salt, smoked and grilled in more grease then necessary. It was the WORST eggplant I have ever had - I had to pull it out coz it was so gross. I made my boyfriend try it and he gagged! Oh yeah, and I hate tofu, but I hate smoked tofu even more LOL

[chakra]

Chargrilling doesn't reach me at all either. Well done smokehouse tofu might be a different story. Definitely don't want any burger that resembles meat as much as a Boca. I can eat it but the Thai patties I've been getting are much better. Nice bright green veggies in there too.

My mainstay are stewed bean dishes. As natural as it gets. I really enjoy soaking them overnight and simmering over low heat, adding the fresh chopped vegetables right at the very end, turning the heat off so they don't go to mush. Dal too. And split peas. Curries. I can eat this everyday. Just add the brown rice. And stirfry veggies.

Why would I want any faked meat?

But when you've got to work every day, and take care of a dog, sometimes that smoked tofu or tofurkey is a necessary evil. Tempeh is good for me too. Regular tofu though does't work well for me. Seems very processed too.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

I just cannot bear Tofu atall.

[Gorilla]

i don't mind tofu as long as it's cooked well, i don't like it all squishy. the smoked stuff is quite good in stews and things.

even when i used to eat meat, i always hated pig meat. i wouldn't eat bacon and i've found that it's a common misconception among omnis that veg*ns constantly crave bacon sandwiches. the smell of bacon makes me feel sick and always has done.

i rarely eat fake meats because i don't see the need. anything like 'burgers' or 'sausages' i prefer the ones that are more like vegetables than meat-style protein. as a new teenage veggie i found them quite useful, but i've moved away from that now.

[Artichoke47]

I don't understand post No. 1 or 3. Can someone translate?

[superfly]

IMO-i think the "fake" meats serve a purpose.
food and memory are bonded together. the number one memory trigger for people is SMELL!
food can be and does have powerful emotional ties as well.
as a home health nurse, i have gone into people's homes and the smell of baking pies or cookies has given me huge rushes of nostalgia for my grandmother's home.

so for many newbie vegans and vegitarians, the fake stuff can be a helpful step in the right direction, easing cravings and getting folks use to eating non-flesh products.

[veganblue]

I don't understand post No. 1 or 3. Can someone translate?

I think that Celtic is just having an aversion to the use of words to describe animals meats as descriptors of vegan fare. I guess soy or coconut 'milk' would come into that as well, but 'soy juice' just doesn't seem to convey the same idea....

I was alarmed one day when cooking yellow split peas to find the resultant mass tasted what my memory regards as sausage meat. It was the sage I put into it but now that mix makes a great vegan sausage roll filling. It's not that they taste like pork sausage filling - pork sausage tastes like sage!

It's mildly comforting.

[foxytina_69]

it depends on how i feel, but i do love the smell of bacon. sumtimes i dont, sumtimes i do. and i like making my own fake meats. such as fake bacon, chicken fingers or burger patties.

[Roxy]

I like some fake meats and eat them on occaision because I like them. These are the Tofurkey roast (tried for the first time on Canadian Thanksgiving), Tofurkey Italian Sausages and Yves Breakfast Sausages.

I also love tofu, tempeh and seitan.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

I do love Seitan, but you don't have to make it look like 'meat', do you. Guess I am still a hypocrit!

[celtic]

I don't understand post No. 1 or 3. Can someone translate?

Hi artichoke47

What I am saying is quite simple really.

The unwitting use of language helps to perpetuate and prolong discrimination in any sense.

What I am saying is this. I believe that the exploitation of animals as a resource is speciesism. If it were not, we would eat humans etc etc

So just like racism and sexism, speciesism is wrong.

To encourage non animals products to be branded as animal products...ie vegy bacon etc is unwittingly doing exactly the same as for example, telling jokes which are sexist or racist.

If you dont think it is speciest, then you must agree that the the use of sexist and racist jokes is okay.

There is no compromise on cruelty.

[foxytina_69]

mmm okay i dont agree but whatever floats your boat.

[Mystic]

mmm okay i dont agree but whatever floats your boat.

LOL Foxy - I love that line!

[Artichoke47]

Okay. Now I get what you're saying...but don't agree, either!

[celtic]

Okay, guys, It can be good to disagree, but as long as we understand why we have a certain position on something, rather than just disagreeing because we have a hunch or a prejudice.

Many vegans are vegans because of diet or health reasons. I am a vegan because I think the exploitation of animals is wrong.

If we analyse the current position, we must agree that non human animals are eaten and exploited as a resource because they are less intelligent than humans. Humans have evolved to a position of dominance over every other animal and have taken advantage of the situation to exploit all non human animals.

Now it is also more or less undisputed that animals have, to use Tom Regan's words, experiencing value of a life; that is, they feel and suffer etc

So if we can refrain from exploiting animals then we are not inflicting cruelty on them.
We can do this because a vegan diet is adequate to live a full and healthy life without adding to cruelty etc.

My point is, currently the 'norm' in society is to exploit animals without giving it a second thought...it seems natural.

But a few hundred years ago, it seemed natural for many white people to have a black slave, indeed many could not imagine life without them. Blacks were seen as sub-human.

More recently, women were seen to be naturally suited to the kitchen; why would they need a vote? This seemed to crazy to Victorians. Even many women thought that they had their place and it would be unnatural to do 'mens' work or have suffrage etc

So in times past, we often saw things which were seen as 'natural' as being challenged and ultimately accepted as a new norm.

Sexism and racism, though still widespread, is more or less frowned upon in civilised society and illegal in most.

Speciesim (the exploitation of an inferior race) is very similar to that of racism and sexism.

Often the great challenges to societies 'norms' in the past were in the words of John Stuart Mill, met with 3 phases...1)Ridicule 2)Discussion 3)Acceptance

I think any serious person who abhors the exploitation of animals should do everything in his power to refrain from encouraging exploitation. My example of 'vegy bacon' was used to show that even the most innocent terms can underpin the existing 'norms'.

eg. Veggies cant eat bacon but not to worry, we can have second best...vegy bacon.

I dont think that we are so 'one tracked' as to be non adventorous in our language to shun references to animals in our non animal diets.

[Korn]

Many vegans are vegans because of diet or health reasons.

I assume that you mean that many people eat plant based food of diet or health reasons?

[PinkFluffyCloud]

Well I get exactly what you're saying, Celtic, and it's been worrying me lately. I used to get quite defensive about using 'fake meats', but recently I have seen their more garish qualities.
I don't agree with calling Ham Ham, or Bacon Bacon in the first place - why not call it 'peices of Pigs legs', or 'Peices of Pigs stomach', or whatever - make it clear where it comes from?
So, as a natural progression, why call something 'Cheatin' Ham', when Ham is plain wrong in the first place??
Obviously the point is to show (new) Veggies, Vegans what the product is meant to replace, but if you are Vegan because you disagree with exploitation, then surely you can see the bitter irony here??

[Korn]

I mean, isnt it a bit ironic, that vegans hanker so much after the long lost taste of pig meat?

If people have been living on a diet for many years, or doing anything at all over and over for years, a habit is created. I think fake meat is manufactured as such either for profit or to make it easier for people who still hasn't dropped old habit (or who find it difficult to do so) to drop meat. If someone eats meat for 25 years and decides to drop it, it's no surprise that all old habits don't drop dead overnight...

[Artichoke47]

Celtic, there's no such thing as a health vegan. A vegan is a vegan for ethical reasons and possibly/usually environmental.

If someone is avoiding the consumption of animal products for health reasons, they are a strict vegetarian.

Some vegans may say that health was one of the motivating factors.

[Artichoke47]

This sounds like an argument an omnivore would make. "(Laughing) Well, if you don't want to eat meat, why do you eat the meat substitutes? (Laughing and looking stupid)"

Hey, if someone wants to eat a "meat substitute," have at it; it's not causing any harm, assuming it's a vegan one. Just because people ate dead animals before "meat substitutes" or items with soy became popular doesn't make the second one similar or as bad as the first. Perhaps if people were more inventful/resourceful, tofu, seitan, and other soy products would have become popular a long time ago.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

Artichoke, I totally agree, I hate it when meat-eaters (such as my parents!) use that silly argument, I just also agree that it seems a little sick to make some products not only look and taste like meat, but also name them after meat products, which were originally given misleading names in order to tempt people to eat them blindly.

[celtic]

Celtic, there's no such thing as a health vegan. A vegan is a vegan for ethical reasons and possibly/usually environmental.

If someone is avoiding the consumption of animal products for health reasons, they are a strict vegetarian.

Some vegans may say that health was one of the motivating factors.

Hi Artichoke47

I'm afraid your slightly wrong here.

There are many people who are vegans because they want to cut out cholesterol from their diet altogether.

They cannot do this with a solely vegeterian diet as milk and eggs have cholesterol.

As we all know, cholesterol is only found in animal products.

Therefore there are vegans who come to be vegans for health reasons WHEN WE ARE REFERRING TO DIET.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

Celtic, Korn and Artichoke mean 'Vegan' as in the definition of one whose Philosophy is not to use any animal/insect products/by products atall.
Some people claim to be Vegan, but in fact only omit animal products from their diet, whilst not embracing the whole concept (i.e still buying Leather/Silk/Wool products, etc.)

[Artichoke47]

Vegans don't use any animal products and do it for ethical reasons.

There is no such thing as a vegan diet only; you can have an animal-product-free diet.

Sorry, but I'm not wrong. Thanks.

[celtic]

Hi artichoke47

Whether you are right or wrong on definitions is unimportant here. We are knit picking. The point is everyone knows that what we are talking about is people who choose a 'vegan' diet for health reasons. You can call them what you like. But it is a fact they are dietary vegans.

But, hey, havent we left the main road here?

My post was not about definitions; it was about the prevelance of language which compounds animal exploitation.

You said....


Hey, if someone wants to eat a "meat substitute," have at it; it's not causing any harm, assuming it's a vegan one.


...

Well I have to disagree with you artichoke, because if we are not about trying to change the opinions of people that animal exploitation is wrong then I dont know what we are about.

Therefore to label vegan foods as something which resembles a dead animal is to me at least, contradictory.

How many times have we seen vegan products labelled as.....

Vegan....Chicken flavour crisps

Vegan....Chicken nuggets

Vegan....Hot Dogs "Just like the real thing"

Smokey Bacon crisps (suitable for Vegans)

Come on!

Can anybody see the danger here?

If we dont think it is harmful to refer to vegan products as dead animals then philosophically we have to concede that it is okay to

Tell jokes about blacks

or

Tell jokes about dumb blondes


If we dont, then we must think (logically) that sexism and racism, somehow is of more importance than speciesism.

I for one, regard murdering animals for taste and fashion(speciesism), a far more important issue than sexism and racism. Reason being; at least blondes and blacks can fight back.

[Artichoke47]

No, they aren't vegans.

[Roxy]

So given your explanations celtic; do you feel it is improper to call soy milk, soy "milk"? Or is that too close a relation to dairy milk?

I can see where you are coming from, and agree a little bit, as far as the Vegan Hot Dogs, Vegan Chicken Nuggets, Vegan Chicken Legs go.

However, I personally don't look at tempeh seitan and tofu as "meat substitutes". I consider them completely different products all together.

[celtic]

No, they aren't vegans.

Hi artichoke47

I see you are still on that side track somewhere!

Come on back! We have moved on!

[celtic]

So given your explanations celtic; do you feel it is improper to call soy milk, soy "milk"? Or is that too close a relation to dairy milk?

Hi Roxy

No. Milk is different and is not only produced by female mammals. Flowers produce milk and there are numerous well known examples which we hear like coconut cacti etc daily.

Milk has various definitions but a common demoninator would be that it is a secretion of some sort.

Thats fine by me.

[ConsciousCuisine]

Hi artichoke47. Whether you are right or wrong on definitions is unimportant here. We are knit picking.

Acually, that would be "nit" picking, as in "picking nits" from the hair of a vermin- infested person.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

Acually, that would be "nit" picking, as in "picking nits" from the hair of a vermin- infested person.

But would that be a 'Vegan' pastime, CC??

[ConsciousCuisine]

But would that be a 'Vegan' pastime, CC??

HA! I thought the same thing, and hoped someone else would go there HA!

[PinkFluffyCloud]

HA! I thought the same thing, and hoped someone else whoud go there HA!

There you go then! 'Great' minds think alike!

[Artichoke47]

So what's the point, really? Are you going to write to companies and ask them to change the name of their product?

[Mystic]

I agree with Artichoke, in that the word vegan refers to something more meaningful than just diet, however I am repulsed by names like "not bacon", "beef" in blackbean sauce and eggless salad.

I have never tried seitan, but like Roxy, I too consider tempeh to be a product of it's own.

[Hasha]

I am repulsed by names like "not bacon", "beef" in blackbean sauce and eggless salad.

I know!!

In my college dining hall, they sometimes serve things such as "beef" stir-fry. It took me a while before I actually tried the thing, just because I couldn't picture myself eating "beef", even though I knew perfectly well that it wasn't real. Once I tried it, it didn't taste too bad, though. And then we've got this thing called vegan turkey. In the two and a half years that I've been here, I haven't been able to make myself try it. Veg*ns don't eat turkey and turkey isn't vegan! (Besides, the thing looks way too processed to be healthy.) And the vegan cheese-steak? No. I just couldn't.

I really love tofu though. I've never thought of it as a meat substitute. I have heard it called soy cheese, but I didn't find it repulsive. I guess because at the time that I heard it, I was still lacto-ovo...

[celtic]

So what's the point, really? Are you going to write to companies and ask them to change the name of their product?

Well. Many people do lobby companies and their representatives.

Or one could simply refrain from buying that type of product.

[celtic]

Acually, that would be "nit" picking, as in "picking nits" from the hair of a vermin- infested person.

Hi ConsciousCuisine

I'm glad I saw the smiley at the end of your message there, cause for a moment I though you were.....nit picking.

[ConsciousCuisine]

Well, there was no "tongue in cheek" smiley...

[paradoxsund]

I like tofu (really cooked though- plain makes me sick to my stomach), tempeh, and seitan, and tofurky,and pretty much most things. I make my own seitan and it's yummy, and I like baking tofu marinated. I don't eat to much processed products, but I pretty much like everything.

[Evilfluffbunny]

I don't think I've ever met anyone like this, but I keep hearing about vegans and veggies who think it's wrong to eat meat substitutes. I'm just wondering if anyone here feels that way and if so, why? What bothers you about it? Do you feel it hampers the cause of veganism or animal rights in any way?

It's mainly actually meat eaters I've found to have a problem with it and I get sick of being asked "What's the point in eating fake meat, why don't you just eat the real stuff?" One guy even said "I know a great meat substitute - it's called a salad!". Arse. I don't know why people don't get it, I mean, no-one thinks it's strange that I wear obviously fake looking fur, they don't say "Well, if you wear that then you might as well buy a real mink coat.", so why can't they get their heads around the fact that some people enjoy the taste and texture of meat but don't want to eat dead animals? I'd eat fake human burgers or baby steaks if they were tasty, that's the whole point isn't it - they're fake! The more flavours and textures available the better as far as I'm concerned.

BTW, I'm not having a go at anyone who does personally think it's wrong, I'm just genuinely interested to know why.

[l337_v3g4n_1]

I tink it's a bit creepy when it gets TOO real