No-Kill Shelters

[snivelingchild]

Here is a poll to discuss kill and no-kill shelters. I have only given three choices to keep simplicity. Please answer no-kill if you believe under no circumstance other than medical pain/suffering/dying should an animal be put to sleep. Please answer regular shelter if you think there are circumstances in which an animal can be put to sleep if a shelter does not have the resources to take care of it, instead of turning the animal away. Please answer unsure if you truely do not know where you stand. Alright, let it begin...

Thanks for adding the options, Korn.

[snivelingchild]

While some believe it is hypocritical, I believe conventional shelters are a necessity, and that I would rather have a shelter put to sleep the animals it does not have the resources to adopt it out, or even the resources to hold it, rather than turn it away. I have known many people who would get rid of an animal in many worse ways if a shelter would not accept them. In Baton Rouge, there's this one road that's sorta out in the coutry, and I would see dogs out there all the time who were very confused and didn't know where they were. It was a common place for dumping dogs. This isn't as bad as it could have been, but most of these dogs who weren't used to running wild would get hit.

[Maisiepaisie]

I agree Snivellingchild. Its all very well saying we should never put healthy animals to sleep but what if there is no one available to take care of them? There are simply too many unwanted animals to rehome them all and even if we could build several shelters in every town, what kind of a life is it to be stuck in a shelter for years? Until we change many peoples minds on issues regarding pets and/or get more laws in place regarding breeding and buying pets the number of unwanted pets will always be higher than the number of people looking to adopt. For the sake of minimising suffering for unwanted animals the best way we can I feel that we must have kill shelters but I also feel its very important to work on bringing in new laws restricting breeders. I don't like even so called "responsible breeders" but to allow absolutely anyone to breed animals, regardless of their knowledge or intent is ridiculous. Its these irresponsible breeders who largly contribute to the unwanted animal problem. Stop them and stop pet shops from selling animals and that would help a lot to ease the problem.

[antman]

There are many unwanted and neglected human beings in the world. Should we euthanise humans simply because there is no space for them or should we work harder on improving our services to accomodate them whilst improving awareness about their plight?

What can be gained from kill shelters? The animal suffers several miserable years only to be put to sleep, the former owner gets on with their life, the breeder gets on with their business, and the general public are oblivious to what is going on.

Nothing will change if you support kill shelters.

[Maisiepaisie]

Human beings are able to take care of themselves better than domestic animals.

Of course I'd much prefer that the taxpayers money was put to better use by compulsory and free spaying and neutering but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Until steps are taken to ease the existing problems I don't see how we could do away with kill shelters. Antman or anyone else who disagrees with me, what do you suppose would happen to all the unwanted animals if we only had no-kill shelters?

[antman]

What steps do you propose taking that wouldn't be undermined by the fact that in the other hand is your letter of support to the kill shelters? If opposing them now causes extra suffering, it is a sacrifice that has to be made to one day reduce the suffering.

The only way to justify kill shelters is to use the same mentality, of necessary casualties. The loss of life now will give us the stats to show people that the current situation is unacceptable and inadequate.

However, that isn't what is happening. Kill shelters aren't changing anything, all they do is give those that abuse animals a quick and easy way to get rid of them.

Your support merely supports the status quo, which leads to far more suffering in the long term.

[Maisiepaisie]

But where can the animals go if all the no-kill shelters are full? Most people do know about animals in shelters but they simply don't care. They want a shiny new baby and they want it cheap, or then theres the other type of person who only want a certain breed and these lot usually only want babies too. I doubt we're going to change the minds of these people. We need laws. In the meantime animals are suffering and that needs to be addressed.

[antman]

Stop repeating the same question with a different wording, as if that is going to convince me of something. What do you want me to say? Animals are going to die whichever type of shelter you support. Though, edit, I'm not sold on the idea that it is equal or maybe worse if you support no kill shelters. One of my own cats was a stray for several years before we took him in. He had survived fine and would have survived for several more years. As it is, we took him in, and he lived an even longer, healthier life. If there was a kill shelter here, he'd have lost 15 years of happy life.

I personally prefer to go into the future with the positive (rather than defeatist) attitude that what I do now can change the world for the better, including opening the eyes of the general public and creating new laws. I have to believe I can open eyes, otherwise how will I ever convince anybody to change the law?

I certainly have a better chance of doing so if I open up with, "animals are suffering abuse and dying because our laws and resources are insufficient to protect those in our care" than if I open with, "animals are suffering abuse and dying because I killed them."

[Maisiepaisie]

Stop repeating the same question with a different wording, as if that is going to convince me of something.

But thats just it, nobody has the answers. People who are against kill shelters are not able to come up with a more humane alternative to the problem. Dogs and cats may have some chance of survival on the streets but what about small animals? I've volunteered in rescue and several times rabbits were dumped over the fence in boxes. One of these rabbits had had a broken leg that had been allowed to heal deformed. We kept those rabbits but the following times they had to be taken by the RSPCA. We simply didn't have the resources to deal with this. The guinea pigs moved quite quickly but some of the rabbits were in rescue for years, shut in hutches that provide inadequate space for exercise and receiving very little attention because there were too many and not enough volunteers. Infact I was the only volunteer and the woman who ran the place wasn't much better than useless. If I was a rabbit I would rather be dead than live like this. Everytime I've taken in rabbits, guinea pigs and hamsters they've come to me with too small hutches/cages and its obvious the people only cleaned up to save themselves any embarrassment. Always I find deeply ingrained urine scale in cages that people have neglected to clean properly. Why should many more of these animals be forced to live like this until it kills them while we sit and wait for laws to protect them? All that would happen if people could not get rid is they would continue this neglect until the poor animal died from starvation, hypothermia or some other illness brought on by neglect. From the animals point of view I feel that euthanasia is a more humane option.

[antman]

Nothing you have said makes a bit of difference to the argument we have already had. In fact, the first rabbit examples completely fail to prove any point. You say that they were dumped over the fence, already injured and deformed, as if whether the shelter was a pro- or no-kill environment made any difference.

Meanwhile, I have never said I am against euthanasia. If an animal arrives ill, injured, and generally beyond repair, then it is in its best interests that it be put to sleep. It is the same for neglected animals, loved animals, wild animals, and many say for humans, too. I doubt there are any shelters out there that don't put the sick and injured to rest if they cannot be cured.

This started as a debate about whether you should take in animals and kill them if there is no space, or whether you should turn them away. It seems to have become about what to do if an animal arrives already on the verge of death. These are different debates.

I still stand by my opinion that it is better to turn away animals where there is a hope that they will stay healthy, find a home, whatever, even if there is the risk of it going the other way, whilst working on improving the situation, than to kill those animals and attempt to make a change with a compromised position.

Cruelty, abuse, neglect. It happens in a world with both types of shelter. The only way to change it is to make a stand one way or the other and fight for the future. You may be sitting around waiting for things to change (though volunteering, which is something to respect). Others are out there making things change.

[snivelingchild]

There are many unwanted and neglected human beings in the world. Should we euthanise humans simply because there is no space for them or should we work harder on improving our services to accomodate them whilst improving awareness about their plight?

I believe humans should have the right to decide whether or not they want to live, we are not to make that choice for them. We are forced to make many life/death decisiond for companion animals.

Nothing will change if you support kill shelters.

Change can be achieved if we continue to encourage adopting from shelters and discourage buying from breeders.

If opposing them now causes extra suffering, it is a sacrifice that has to be made to one day reduce the suffering.

That is saying that the ends justufy the means. I don't believe that is true.

I am not saying feral cats don't necessarily have a decent life, especially with catch-spay-and-release programs that can reduce their numbers (although many spread diseases from lack of vet treatment), and I'm not saying we should hunt down and kill all the strays we can find, but the animals that are brought to shelters need to be dealt with. Most dogs and cats who were pets have no idea how to survive on their own. As I mentioned on another thread, there is one road in Baton Rouge commonly used for dumping animals, and it was always littered with dead cats and dogs that were hit with cars.

I believe that it is a necessary evil that we will have to deal with until we get animal population numbers down to what we can deal with, but I believe it goes with my vegan beliefs as my veganism is to avoid animal suffering as long as there is a viable alternative. I don't see a viable alternative.

Excuse my repitition, but if erradicated kill shelters, billions of animals would just be illegally dumped. It is illegal to dump an animal, and for good reason. They are domesticated (I am not talking about wild dogs or feral cats, there is a huge difference). I would agree that the hope that an animal could survive on it's own or eventually be taken in is better than knowing it will die, except for the fact that I would rather my own cats and dogs be put down in a painless fashion than risk dying slowly of feline aids, rabies, or getting hit by a car. Perhaps different areas of the world are less risky, but where I live, I've buried too many animals to put any in that danger.

I respect no kill shelters, but you have to look at the numbers they turn away. "According to the American Humane Association, an estimated 9.6 million animals are euthanized in the United States every year. The majority of these are euthanized at animal shelters, typically after a standard period of time (ranging from several days to several weeks for unclaimed stray animals)." wiki.
http://www.news-journal.com/news/con...l_shelter.html

Dumping animals that are not sterilized even adds to the population crisis. Our shelters certainly do not have the resources to sterilize every animal that comes their way, and then releasing them into the wild. They don't even have to room to keep them while they undergo the surgery. What we need to do is imporve our sterilization efforts, with everyone.

[snivelingchild]

The loss of life now will give us the stats to show people that the current situation is unacceptable and inadequate.

I do not believe that isa justification of kill shelters. I see a painless death as a preventative for a likely painful death, via reasons I've mentioned before. I think all dogs and cats running loose are suceptable to rabies, leukemia, aids, etc. I think cats and dogs that used to be pets are exceptionally suseptable to getting hit by cars, wandering in the wring place and being killed, being poisened or accidentally getting into antifreeze, being attacked by another animal, starvation, and having simple injuries turn into deadly infections. There was a cat my mom recently started feeding that had a big gaping hole in it from a cats fight and dying of starvation. It wasn't until she started feeding and cleaning it that these are slowly starting to go away, but she still doesn't know if he will survive. There was another cat who was attacked by a dog and I found him by her house with half his face hanging off. Obviously he never came back. I think the first scenario is far too uncommon to base a philosophy off of.

Aside from the putting down/dumping is the fact that there are many people out there who will use worse means of dumping. I read a story about a man who dropped a dog off of an interstate overpass into oncoming traffic when a shelter turned it away. I know that this lays into the fault of the man NOT the sheltor, but I think it's worth thinking about a little. We want a safe place to always exist for a person to bring an animal to. I think it's essential.

Alright, I swear I'll let someone else speak now. After adding that I do respect people and organizations who work towards eliminating unnecessary death of animals. I think birth control is the key. Much like the abortion issue. (slight joke) But seriously, if you think human overcrowding is bad now, think if there were no abortion. I'm not trying to get into that discussion, but making a point about putting animals down. At 3.7 million square miles, discounting the euthanasia due to illness, there would be about two more animals per square mile all over the U.S. I have read that there are 7 companion animals for every person born, but there are estimates as high as 50 for every person. With 90% never finding a home, that requires a lot of resources for these animals to find in the wild. I don't see how that many could survive on their own, but this is pure speculation, and not meant much for the debate.

[angelamc]

MaisiePaisie has a good point about having free spay/neuter instead of all the free euthanasia. I voted unsure because I really don't know! I volunteer with kill and no-kill shelters and both have their down sides. I think it's a fairly complicated issue and I feel bad for the animals that end up in both camps. Peta is against no-kill shelters. Does anyone know what other vegan organisations have to say on this subject?

[Maisiepaisie]

I haven't voted because I think we need to have both. Marina Kennels in Huddersfield is a kill shelter but they're very cooperative with an organisation I volunteer for. We take the dogs when their time is up and drive them to other shelters across the UK. It would be good if this could be done for every kill shelter but then maybe there wouldn't be any places to take them. Its a difficult dilemma that I think the only real solution lies with new laws. People are people and will always be selfish unless the law forces them not to be, and even then not everyones going to do the right thing.

[Linxie]

I am for no-kill shelters. The charity I work for has a non destruction policy. But it is a complex issue! There needs to be a lot of education done to get people to neuter their animals so that the numbers of unwanted animals are reduced.

[rxseeeyse]

we should just have more shelters, and put the girls together and the guys together. I believe in no-kills. seriously, what is government doing, spending all the money on things that doesn't matter but cut down health, education and other public benefits program fundings....(well im in BC canada, dont know about other places lol)