where do you draw the line

[veganpollo]

i ment a dead animal... animals are someones... to wear someone dead... that sounds to me rather sick and preverted...=/

Rocking corpses isn't appealing at all.
Even less appealing would be to put them into my stomach.


If I was in the tundra, and my only option as the hide of a caribou, I might do it... not without a tremendous amount of guilt. Just as a means of survival.

Thankfully, I live in a society and situation where animal products are totally not necessary to my life or survival. (:

[DavidT]

Any contribution to less animal suffering is a good act, though.

This is a good line. I like it. It's more-or-less like a thought that I use on everyone but most especially on meat-eaters.

[Vangrrl79]

I ahve not thrown out any of the stuff I bought before I became a vegan. I still wear my Aldo shoes. My vegan shoes are not as comfortable, so when I know I will have a lot of standing to do, I wear my Aldos. I still wear my pre-vegan belts. On rare occasions I will even put on my leather jacket. I really don't think my using these items does any harm. The harm was done when I paid for them all. I no longer buy non-vegan products. I recently bought some vegan shaving cream. It's fantastic! I can't wait to shave tomorrow. I like the soaps too. Yes, it can get pricey, but I think it is more important to spare the suffering of innocent animals than to save a few dollars.

I work at a Seventh-Day Adventist University. SDAs are already more receptive to the idea of vegetarianism, so I have been quite open about my veganism. I hope it will do some good.

THANKS! This post set my mind at ease.

I was having some debate with what to do with my pregan things like my fave watch and my beloved Birks.

I agree that the damage was one when I slapped the card down to pay for these things and simply tossing them now only adds more insult to injury.

Once these items wear out that will be it for me, but until then there is no point in creating more waste.

Plus I am not made of money (jst like most of us) and simply can't replace things at whim.

[veganpollo]

Wearing leather and representing death and flesh all over your body seems a little on the less-than-vegan side.

I still own two articles of wool, and two pairs of leather boots. I haven't touched them for a year, I just don't know whether to sell them and profit off of animal death or to bury them ritualistically.

To me, wearing leather... even fake leather... is kind of criminal.
It isn't expanding one's horizon to non-cruel options, and it kind of limits others' scope of "what a vegan is."

I wear Ethletic shoes; they look a lot like converse, but they're organic. They cost about the same, too. When people happen to bring them up, I let them know where I get them and why I do. They're fair trade, organic, vegan shoes.

At least one person I know has specifically bought vegan shoes because of it.

To promote cruelty is to promote cruelty.
Similarly, the man who watches a beating and does nothing is as guilty as he who is throwing the punches.

That's only my opinion, but it makes sense to me & that is how I live my life. Your life obviously consists of your own definition of morality, and please don't feel as though I am attacking that. (:
(end disclaimer...)

I hope my posts have given at least one person insight to other perspectives. (:

[leedsveg]

Wearing leather and representing death and flesh all over your body seems a little on the less-than-vegan side.

Your life obviously consists of your own definition of morality, and please don't feel as though I am attacking that. (:
(end disclaimer...)
(:

[my underlining lv]

Since 'vegan perfection' is probably impossible, unless we cut ourselves off from the world, we all have to make compromises. As the compromises are bound to vary due to a myriad of varying personal circumstances, it's probably best not to engage in any 'I'm more vegan than you because you do xyz and I don't (or vice versa)' competitions.

leedsveg

[sandra]

To me, wearing leather... even fake leather... is kind of criminal.
It isn't expanding one's horizon to non-cruel options, and it kind of limits others' scope of "what a vegan is"

Hi Veganpollo, I don't wear leather (of course) but I do wear fake stuff. I love to point out to people who think my jacket/boots are leather that indeed they aren't. They then go away in the knowledge that using an animal's skin as clothing is just not necessary.

I think I am 'expanding' OTHERS horizons to non-cruel options by wearing fake leather, plus I am proud to wear a badge saying 'VEGAN' on my jacket too. I love to see the expression on people's faces when they are putting two and two together!

[veganpollo]

[my underlining lv]

Since 'vegan perfection' is probably impossible, unless we cut ourselves off from the world, we all have to make compromises. As the compromises are bound to vary due to a myriad of varying personal circumstances, it's probably best not to engage in any 'I'm more vegan than you because you do xyz and I don't (or vice versa)' competitions.

leedsveg

Chill. I'm being 100% sincere.
Just giving an opinion. It doesn't seem vegan to me, and the question was raised (there are two sides to every coin, now).

In my (humble) opinion, it's just disturbing to see leather. It bugs me and makes my skin crawl, as well as fur.

It doesn't seem vegan to me is the statement I made. That's like vegans who eat honey or ovo-lacto vegetarians. I feel no different about them. Pescitarians often call themselves vegetarians and I'm not going to hop on a soapbox for them because any kind act or gesture toward any being in a sympathetic manner gets at A+ in my book.

I don't wear leather. I don't feel it's vegan. Other people have their own definition of that and while I am entitled to respond with my opinion, I am not going to essentially shit all over their beliefs because I disagree. That would actually be hurting my cause of veganism more than helping it.

And I agree: vegan perfection is impossible. Animals will always suffer, as people do. We can only strive for our best and evaluate our motivations. For many it's health. (: Others it's animal liberation. And for some, both. It's all good though. Helping ourselves, animals, and the planet.

[leedsveg]

Hi veganpollo and sandra

I hear what you both say. I went to see my dentist today and lay on the leather* couch while I was having a tooth filled. (*It looked like leather, smelled like leather and I'm sure it was leather.)

Perhaps I could have asked to be treated on a non-leather couch (don't remember ever seeing such a thing there) or I could have taken my custom elsewhere and tried to find a dentist with a non-leather couch.

I did neither but chose to have my treatment on the skin of a dead animal. In other words, I used a (dead) animal. Maybe as well if I'd said something at the time, this would have encouraged the dentist and assistant to think more positively about veganism, but I chose not to because I didn't think they'd understand.

I don't doubt that some vegans would have made the same choice as me, and I don't doubt that others would not have. It does seem that for we vegans, it's very often a case of 'damned if you do' and 'damned if you don't'.

I realise that my little story is not about wearing (faux-)leather, but the principle is the same.

Good wishes for your veganism

leedsveg

[Tofu Monkey]

As most people have said in this thread, If I have any cosmetics that are non-vegan, I will use them up until they are gone and replace with vegan alternatives. I've never been a fan of leather so I wouldn't have that dilemma.

When it comes to eating meat/dairy out of politeness, this is definitely something I would never do. If I ever go round someone's house for dinner, I would state well in advance that I do not eat meat or dairy. I would feel it more impolite to eat the food and for them to find out at a later date that I was a Vegan. Plus I haven't eaten meat in nearly 7 years and the thought of eating a dead corpse makes me heave so I wouldn't even be able to put any in my mouth before I was being sick.

Luckily I only have this dilemma with my boyfriend's folks and I try avoid going there as much as possible. They're very old fashioned and although they don't criticize my beliefs, they don't really understand the full extent of veganism so they often have to be prompted by my boyfriend about certain foods and the like...

[baby_vicuña]

^ I hear you. I live with my parents, who are quite fond of leather furniture (I'm currently sitting on a couch with leather armrests). Sadly, I'm used to leather. It gets to me every now and then, but for the most part, I ignore it (and obviously don't buy leather products and all that).

But we can only do so much. IMO, it's "to each his own" when it comes to these grey areas in veganism. I gave away all my "pregan" leather and wool, but of course I don't judge those that kept theirs. I have fake leather shoes and a wallet (and I love telling people that they are, in fact, "fake" ).

I agree with sandra, I think fake leather shows people that you don't need the real stuff. I have a friend that is immediately turned off when she finds out a pair of leather boots are fake. She complemented my ugg-boots one time and asked where I got them. I told her and also that they were fake. She was shocked .

[sandra]

Thanks Baby Vicuna, I love to see that 'shocked' look on people's faces too when they find out something isn't leather.

In my opinion you cannot compare the wearing of an animal's skin with wearing faux material. As long as there is no substance from an animal in any food or clothes then it it vegan.

[leedsveg]

As long as there is no substance from an animal in any food or clothes then it it vegan.

Hi sandra

Veganism seems to be a very complex business and not surprisingly we as individuals appear to have 'individual definitions' about just what makes each of us 'vegan'.

You would not 'of course' wear leather, but somebody else might decide to use the leather shoes they bought before they went vegan, until they are worn out, when they will then buy non-leather shoes. As Joanne Stepaniak says about this situation in her book Being Vegan '...each vegan must determine her or his own threshold of tolerance and make choices based on individual need and economic circumstances.'

When wine is clarified, animal finings are often used in the process, but these are removed before the wine is bottled. Going by your above definition, you seem to be ok about drinking such wine, but speaking only for myself, I would not feel ok about drinking it.

I'm not having a go at anybody but just trying to point out that if there are say, 50 million vegans in the world, then there are probably 50 million definitions of what a vegan does/doesn't do.

leedsveg

[Arbar]

Well, stupidly, it has only just occured to me thast I'm sitting on a wool carpet (well, 80% wool. I guess that makes it 20% vegan!). I can't replace all the wool carpets in the house unfortunately (not my decision) so I'm having to suck it up. I feel like a hyopocrite, because I'd never wear leather or wool, and yet have a lot of wool in the house

[sandra]

Hi sandra

When wine is clarified, animal finings are often used in the process, but these are removed before the wine is bottled. Going by your above definition, you seem to be ok about drinking such wine, but speaking only for myself, I would not feel ok about drinking it.

leedsveg

Hi Leedsveg, you are assuming a little too much about me. I would not and do NOT drink wine that has been fined using animal substances!
Just thought I'd clear that up!

[cobweb]

but surely when animal finings are used there's a big chance that there will be some contamination of the alcohol so it would theoretically contain 'animal substance' and therefore would not meet Sandra's personal criteria anyway?

[Haniska]

Do you eat vegan hotdogs?

[baby_vicuña]

I'm not having a go at anybody but just trying to point out that if there are say, 50 million vegans in the world, then there are probably 50 million definitions of what a vegan does/doesn't do.

Good point, I completely agree.

Well, stupidly, it has only just occured to me thast I'm sitting on a wool carpet (well, 80% wool. I guess that makes it 20% vegan!). I can't replace all the wool carpets in the house unfortunately (not my decision) so I'm having to suck it up. I feel like a hyopocrite, because I'd never wear leather or wool, and yet have a lot of wool in the house

I know what you mean. Sometimes I completely forget I'm sitting on a leather couch (as I said, my house is full of leather). Or like in the car, I almost never think about the leather on the steering wheel and whatnot . There's only so much we can do, no need to feel like a hypocrite .

[shellymi2nv]

there was a new york times blog yesterday about food requirements of guests:

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...q=vegan&st=cse

major obnoxiousness towards vegans, if i may say so.

[leedsveg]

As long as there is no substance from an animal in any food or clothes then it it vegan.

Hi Leedsveg, you are assuming a little too much about me. I would not and do NOT drink wine that has been fined using animal substances! Just thought I'd clear that up!

but surely when animal finings are used there's a big chance that there will be some contamination of the alcohol so it would theoretically contain 'animal substance' and therefore would not meet Sandra's personal criteria anyway?

Hi sandra & cobweb

I think it was the simplicity of the definition that threw me. Thanks for the clarification, sandra.

Not sure how much contamination is left after finings are removed (if any) but if we, as vegans, are going to totally avoid all food and drink possibly contaminated by 'the microscopic', then life is going to get pretty difficult. Of course animal ingredients mean animal exploitation but animal exploitation does not necessarily involve animal ingredients.

Best wishes

leedsveg

[cobweb]

^ i basically agree with what you say leedsveg, but i've looked at the wines in co-op that are labelled vegetarian, vegan, or not, and in the 'not' category they actually list on the label *ingredients* containing various disgusting animal bits and bobs .

to me its coming back to doing what you can - i'll buy synthetic shoes even if i'm not totally sure of the glue used, for instance, because i simply can't financially manage to buy from vegan only outlets . I suppose if i'm doing that i may aswell eat 'contaminated' food, or drink un-vegan wine (if i still drank wine ) - but just on a personal level that would feel different because that's bits of other people's bodies going into my body.

i s'pose veganism will always have to be quite an individual thing really.

[leedsveg]

major obnoxiousness towards vegans, if i may say so.

Hi shelly

I read the blog thinking that vegans had come in for special condemnation, but not so.

I have 100% sympathy for the blogger if she's tried in the past to accommodate the disparate dietary requirements of her guests and if it now seems to have got too difficult for her to carry on as before, I'm not surprised. We have no more right to demand 'vegan food' when we go to an omni's house than they have the right to demand a bacon sandwich when they come to ours.

(As an aside, I remember travelling to Israel in 1972, with two English girls I'd met at a youth hostel in Cyprus. The boat landed in Haifa and being hungry, we went to the nearest cafe for a meal. After eating salad with chopped liver, we asked for coffees and along they came, all black. My companions requested a little milk and were amazed when the owner said that because of the laws of kashrut, they would have to wait eight hours before he could oblige them. The girls knew that bacon wasn't kosher, but they'd never heard of the proscription on mixing meat and milk dishes at the same meal. I tried describing what laws I could remember from Leviticus, but it all just didn't make any sense to them.)

leedsveg

[leedsveg]

i s'pose veganism will always have to be quite an individual thing really.

Hi cobweb

I'm sure that the vegetables I eat are not veganically grown so there must be microscopic bits of animal going into my body. Having said that, I'm not about to make a dodgy rationalisation and think 'If I'm ok with that, may as well eat a pork chop....'

As vegan individuals, we do our best and if our best is not good enough for others, b****cks sez I!

leedsveg

[off now for my Sunday run; you'd think I'd know better at my age-63]

[cobweb]

Hi cobweb

I'm sure that the vegetables I eat are not veganically grown so there must be microscopic bits of animal going into my body. Having said that, I'm not about to make a dodgy rationalisation and think 'If I'm ok with that, may as well eat a pork chop....'

As vegan individuals, we do our best and if our best is not good enough for others, b****cks sez I!

leedsveg

[off now for my Sunday run; you'd think I'd know better at my age-63]

that's kind of my point, yes
i suppose having seen on the wine labels 'contains xyz' i'd avoid it
i wash my veg so i hope i'm washing off any icky stuff, but if it had a label on it saying 'contains gelatine' (for instance) i wouldn't buy it.
that's probably faulty logic, its turning a blind eye to other things like non-vegan glue on shoes, but like you say, we all do the best we can

enjoy your run and don't overdo it

[sandra]

As vegan individuals, we do our best and if our best is not good enough for others, b****cks sez I!

leedsveg

[off now for my Sunday run; you'd think I'd know better at my age-63]

I agree Leedsveg, we can all only do our best in this unvegan world.

p.s. I hope you enjoy your run. You are only a young pup...........my dad was out running when he was 83!

[Mahk]

Not sure how much contamination is left after finings are removed (if any) but if we, as vegans, are going to totally avoid all food and drink possibly contaminated by 'the microscopic', then life is going to get pretty difficult. Of course animal ingredients mean animal exploitation but animal exploitation does not necessarily involve animal ingredients.

It's immaterial what the degree of contamination is. Even if there was some sure fire method to ensure that exactly 100% of the fining material is successfully removed, without fail, every single time, the point is that cows were still purposely killed, in part, to make the wine.
---

Regarding LV's kosher restaurant experience, I thought to pass on what info I know. Observant Jews who follow a Kosher diet won't eat dairy and meat in the same meal, or within six hours of eachother, because of an incredibly extrapolated view of this singular passage:

Tenth Commandment on Exodus 34; '.... Thou shalt not seethe (boil) a kid in his mother's milk."

A kid is a young goat.

Clever rabbinical scholars realized what god really meant and have since dictated the specifics, formulating modern day kosher laws regarding dairy and meat:

- all animals that we eat, including cows, are to be included, not just goats.
- the animal can be of any age, not just a young one.
- when god said "its mother" he really meant any milk from any species of animal, they need not be related.
- when god said "seethe" he really meant "touch eachother", the temperature is immaterial.
- by touch each other he meant has ever touched, including surfaces in common, like kitchen utensils and preparation surfaces which once touched by milk or meat become contaminated with that substance and may never be used to touch the other category, even if washed and a wait period of 6-8 hours has passed. (that's the time frame that allows our stomachs to touch both food groups) A knife which has passed through meat may never be used to cut a loaf of bread which contains dairy otherwise both the food and the knife become "treif" (filthy and unusable) and must be discarded or in rare cases utensils may be buried underground for years in order to re-purify them.

Kosher Jews can still eat on a treif/filthy surface if need be, such as an airline seat tray which inevitably has been used for both milk and meat, if the food being served is wrapped in three layers of protective paper and was prepared in a Kosher kitchen.

[leedsveg]

Many thanks Mahk for your additional information regarding kashrut. I'd remembered the interval time between meat and milk consumption quoted by the cafe owner, as 8 hours, but it was 37 years ago!

The kibbutz I lived on for 2 years, was not very observant and only really made a bit of an effort at Passover and Yom Kippur. Religion did not often intrude but I do remember an old lady who looked to be at least 120 years old, asking Susan, my then girlfriend who was Jewish, if she wouldn't mind throttling a chicken for her*. She wouldn't do it herself because it was the sabbath. A case of 'shabbes goy', (or should it be 'shabbes shikse', in the case of a woman?) An irony is that I learnt a lot more about Judaism from reading The Source by James A Michener (a Quaker) than I did in Israel surrounded by Jews!

(*Susan didn't kill the chicken but I'm sure somebody else will have)

leedsveg

[Zero]

[my underlining lv]

Since 'vegan perfection' is probably impossible, unless we cut ourselves off from the world, we all have to make compromises. As the compromises are bound to vary due to a myriad of varying personal circumstances, it's probably best not to engage in any 'I'm more vegan than you because you do xyz and I don't (or vice versa)' competitions.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "vegan perfection" but the very definition of vegan is "to live without using or consuming animals or animal products as far as practical and possible" (paraphrase), therefore veganism is not an unattainable thing and (I agree) certainly not a competition.

[shellymi2nv]

Hi shelly

I read the blog thinking that vegans had come in for special condemnation, but not so.

I meant the comments about the blog (e.g. "Kill the vegans")

[leedsveg]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "vegan perfection" but the very definition of vegan is "to live without using or consuming animals or animal products as far as practical and possible" (paraphrase), therefore veganism is not an unattainable thing and (I agree) certainly not a competition.

Hi Zero

I agree with what you say and I'm sorry that I didn't make myself clearer. I think the definition of 'vegan' you use is (more or less) the current Vegan Society definition. However I also think that the rider 'as far as practical and possible' is a recent addition (and please don't ask me how recent is recent!). It may well be that when Donald Watson coined the word 'vegan' in 1944, living 'without using animals at all' was considered an attainable ideal. In today's more complex world, we surely know that this ideal is not fully attainable and this is why the above rider needed to be added? By 'vegan perfection', I meant what we strive for (the 'at all' bit above), rather than what we currently achieve. In a way it's a bit similar to being a Christian and knowing that how ever hard you try, you'll never be as perfect as Jesus Christ, but it doesn't stop you trying. And though not perfect, you're still a Christian.

Sorry if my attempt at clarification has made the water even muddier!

leedsveg

[leedsveg]

I meant the comments about the blog (e.g. "Kill the vegans")

Oops! Never saw them. (I was thinking that you'd been a bit harsh towards the blogger!) Very sorry shelly.


leedsveg

[Mahk]

An irony is that I learnt a lot more about Judaism from reading The Source by James A Michener (a Quaker) than I did in Israel surrounded by Jews!

That's funny. I too find that the majority of Jews I meet aren't aware of why meat and dairy are kept apart until I explain it to them, and I'm a goy!

Much of my knowledge on the matter was passed on to me through my father who learned it through his father, said to be a great theologian in his day. I'm told when my grandfather was asked why he chose to become a theologian his standard response was, "Know thy enemy". I never met the man but I'm proud of him none the less.
---
I've also independently studied some Kosher and Halal (the Muslims' equivalent) dietary laws in searching for animal ingredients and as a vegetarian it was helpful to a degree but as a vegan it actually hinders me in some ways.

I wrote Dannon yogurt in the 1980's asking, "How can your dairy product be labeled as "Kosher" yet it contains gelatin?" A nice woman wrote back and explained that they were indeed certified as kosher and included a copy of their certification. I looked into it and was shocked to discover that the ingredient "kosher gelatin", considered "pareve" [neutral, neither dairy nor meat], wasn't made from a plant as I had suspected but rather was made the same way as all gelatin, from the boiled tendons, ligaments, and bones of slaughtered cattle! What made it "Kosher" was that the cattle were killed in the correct ritualistic manner [bleed to death while still alive but not necessarily conscious] under the strict supervision of a special rabbi called a Hershesher (not sure of that spelling). See God doesn't want dairy to touch meat, i.e. muscle tissue, but he doesn't care about it touching fur, bones, hooves, tendons..... Oy!

"Vegan" marshmallows were sold here in the US for years until someone finally realized "Kosher gelatin" doesn't mean "animal free". [also some are made from fish, BTW]

[leedsveg]

I'm told when my grandfather was asked why he chose to become a theologian his standard response was, "Know thy enemy". I never met the man but I'm proud of him none the less.

Sounds like a great person. A shame you never had the chance to meet him.

See God doesn't want dairy to touch meat, i.e. muscle tissue, but he doesn't care about it touching fur, bones, hooves, tendons..... Oy!

Just glad I was born a non-believer and will die a non-believer. Imagine the difficulties of trying trying to live both as a vegan and as an ultra orthodox Jew at the same time. You'd be continually deciding that something was/wasn't vegan, and then saying two seconds later 'On the other hand.......'

Very interesting posting Mahk. Thank you.

leedsveg

[brad3104]

I'm a new Vegan (man ive said that like 3 times in other threads the past 2 days since ive been here lol) but I try my very best. I of course don't wear animal products and would not knowingly eat any either at home, a friends house, or out to eat. I try to avoid things like the monodiglcerides (sp?) and might be animal product ingredients. I try to avoid things with regular "sugar" on the ingredients list because theres a good chance bone char was used in the process. However, the following part im a little bit confused about. Companies call sugar so many things that im a bit lost. organic cane juice, organic cane sugar, fructose, can juice, cane sugar etc etc. I've been avoiding these because i have no clue if these use bone char or not??? I've only been getting things with evaporated cane juice in drinks and stuff because i know this is Vegan friendly. And I use this for cooking as well and i might try Sucanat and turbinado because i know they are Vegan as well.

If some more experienced Vegans could advise me on the organic cane juice, organic cane sugar, fructose, can juice, cane sugar etc etc and if any of those are Vegan I would appreciate it very much also i know evaporated can juice is Vegan but ive even seen it called evaporated cane syrup. This sugar stuff and the 100 names it can have is driving me a bit crazy lol.

*I draw the line with medicine and things that I cant hardly control like small pieces of a car being leather. I became a Vegan mostly for health and secondly for the animals and the earth. My health is #1 so i MIGHT not even research if a med is tested on animals or has some trace ingredient. This will be extermely rare anyways as I can't remember taking any meds in the last 5-10 years lol.

[Mahk]

I'm a new Vegan (man ive said that like 3 times in other threads the past 2 days since ive been here lol) but I try my very best. .

Welcome.

I try to avoid things with regular "sugar" on the ingredients list because theres a good chance bone char was used in the process.

I've researched this thoroughly. There is a 25% chance that US sugar is bone char filtered. IMHO it is ridiculously difficult and incredibly problematic to scrutinize the incidental sugar used in products like mustard or bread, at least living here in the US or other countries without the watchful eye of the Vegan Society to monitor and register (certify) which products do or don't contain bone char filtered sugar. The barriers in our way are so insurmountable that I personally would recommend not worrying about it. [For home use however it is easy to limit yourself to established brands such as Florida Crystals Natural Cane Sugar which are known to be bone char filtration free.]

We have a whole thread about sugar but I can't find it.

*I draw the line with medicine and things that I cant hardly control like small pieces of a car being leather. I became a Vegan mostly for health and secondly for the animals and the earth. My health is #1 so i MIGHT not even research if a med is tested on animals or has some trace ingredient.

That sounds prudent.

Not some but rather all medicine has been animal tested, even aspirin; it's US law. Also most medicine's active ingredient may or may not be animal derived but the capsule (gelatine), "easy to swallow" tablet (food glaze/ shellac), or internal binders (magnesium sterate) are all likely to be suspect if you look into it and the people you would need to contact to discern this sort of high level information are completely clueless as to the fact that magnesium sterate may or may not be vegan and whether the batch they are currently using is or isn't.

[baby_vicuña]

I personally avoid refined sugar simply because (IMO) it's just so darn bad for you. If some sort of product uses refined sugar, there are probably other reasons I avoid it anyway.

As far as medicines, I avoid them whenever I can. I'm all for my body healing itself. But when it can't heal by itself, then I use medications. I'm on two different prescriptions for mental health and I absolutely hate taking them everyday. But the alternative is becoming depressed and suicidal in which case I wouldn't care whether something I bought is vegan or not (I've been in that situation, unfortunately). So I consider my medications a necessary evil, for the time being. I plan to get off them as soon as it is safe for me to do so.

[veganwitch]

In the sand.

I'll get me coat

[brad3104]

Mahk is this the thread that you were looking for? http://veganforum.com/forums/showthr...ighlight=sugar

There is so much confusion in this thread and people posting when they arent even sure, that I'm still lost. I read every word of it. So far the only things I know are vegan are Evaporated Cane Juice (there was a poster saying this wasnt vegan until someone corrected him/her), Sucanat and turbinado, and beet sugar. Also if it says un refined, and i know some specific refined sugars from certain companies are vegan. And im aware that If a company makes their regular sugar refined then their brown sugar will be also. If a company makes their regular sugar un refined then their brown sugar will use the un refined sugar. I know there is a brand of brown sugar that starts with a D that is vegan but cant remember the full name off the top of my head. I believe that "raw" or "unbleached" sugar is vegan as well.

My main problem is when the "sugar" is in something like a juice or a soda or some other food product or w/e.....and the "sugar" is on the ingredients list as one for the following.....


Does organic mean that bone char wasnt used in the proccess?

Organic cane juice, organic cane sugar, cane sugar, cane juice, fructose, evaporated cane juice (i know this is vegan), evaporated cane syrup, evaporated cane sugar, high fructose corn syrup ( i know this is vegan but bad)....

everything else seems failry easy about being Vegan. But this sugar thing is really driving me crazy lol

[baby_vicuña]

Organic cane juice, organic cane sugar, cane sugar, cane juice, fructose, evaporated cane juice (i know this is vegan), evaporated cane syrup, evaporated cane sugar, high fructose corn syrup ( i know this is vegan but bad)....

Organic cane juice/sugar, cane juice, fructose, evaporated cane juice/syrup/sugar, high fructose corn syrup= all vegan friendly.

cane sugar= might be filtered with bone char.

"Organic" sugar is less processed and unrefined. No bone char so therefore vegan friendly.

Hope that helped!

[brad3104]

Thank you so much that cleared just about everything up for me

[Mahk]

Mahk is this the thread that you were looking for? http://veganforum.com/forums/showthr...ighlight=sugar

Yes.

There is so much confusion in this thread and people posting when they arent even sure, that I'm still lost.

Here's a brief list of other things that also commonly may use bone char filtration, often referred to as "natural charcoal" by many companies these days, BTW:

Vaseline.
Any product like a door hinge, VCR/DVD/CD player transport mechanism, clock/watch or similar device that is lubricated with Vaseline.
Your water filter (not Brita brand, but other brands like Aqua Science do).
The water filter of the company that made your fruit juice made from concentrate.
The water filter of the coffee, tea, softdrink, beer, companies/restaurants you frequent.
The water filter of the your soy milk and Tofu brand you use (go read the ingredients: "filtered water")
The water filter of your municipal water processing station [Ex: All of (East?) London's water was filtered through bone char one year, although it was prior to the invention of the word "vegan". Many towns in the US and Canada still do this to this day to remove certain contaminants.]
Any product that is labeled as "vegan" by PeTA because they, like several other vegan groups, consider the method of filtration to be immaterial in their promotion of a product as being vegan.
Any product that internet chat or internet "vegan lists"/ groups have deemed "vegan" because they may have taken their data directly or indirectly from that PeTA list. In effect, you need to contact the company yourself to be sure and since they have no qualms in switching their sugar supplier or water filter month to month, I guess contacting them each time you buy them would be the only safe method.

Take for example this email response from Nabisco, I found, from a blogger asking about her Oreos:

Hi Ginger,


Thank you for visiting http://www.nabiscoworld.com and for asking if we use sugar that was refined by using bone char.

Natural charcoal has been used for over 175 years to manufacture sugar and for the past 10 years to filter and decolorize water. Natural charcoal is also approved for use in the purification of municipal drinking water and of course there is no health risk associated with the use of bone char.
Kraft has several sugar suppliers. Some of our suppliers DO use the animal-derived natural charcoal (also known as "bone char") in their cane sugar refining process and some suppliers DO NOT use this process.
Since we may use any of the sugar suppliers at any given time in production, I cannot give a definite answer as to whether or not bone char was used in the sugar refining process of a particular product.
Please be assured that when using natural charcoal for the de-colorization and de-ashing of sugar in the refining process, the charcoal does not transfer impurities to the sugar solution. As a result, the extremely high-quality refined sugar manufactured by our suppliers does not contain any actual impurity from the natural charcoal.
Lastly, I am delighted to hear that you are pleased with our NABISCO Oreo Cookies. Our goal is to maintain the highest quality products and to create a variety of new products that are enjoyable and it is gratifying to learn that our efforts have been successful. I will pass your comments on to the appropriate parties.
Thank you for your loyalty and if you haven’t done so already, please add our site to your favorites and visit us again soon!

Kim M (i've deleted her last name on purpose)
Associate Director, Consumer Relations
Source.

Bone char is also a common pigment in dyes, inks, and plastics. Looking up away from my computer screen I see perhaps several thousands of objects in my room which are black and therefor "suspect".

Worrying about just one category of possible bone char use but ignoring the thousands of others seems hypocritical to me so I don't do it, (other than my direct purchase of home use sugar). YMMV.

[Mahk]

I know there is a brand of brown sugar that starts with a D that is vegan but cant remember the full name off the top of my head.

That's yet another problem with scrutinizing sugar. Even knowing what brand a given company is currently buying to make their product isn't enough information. Take for example "Domino" sugar. They use "natural charcoal" filtration at some of their US refineries but not at others. You would need to know the batch code stamp of the bag of sugar that was used to make your particular product.

Imagine this hypothetical visit to a P.F. Changs restaurant:

Customer: "As a recent winner of PeTA's "most vegan/vegetarian friendly US restaurant chain" I am excited to be here but before I order the top rated Ma Po Tofu dish I need to further inquire what kind of sugar you are using to make the sauce today. "

Waiter: "OK"

Customer: "Please go look to see what brand it is and if it is Domino's please flip the bag over and copy down for me the batch code number printed on the bottom. From that I can ascertain which refinery it came from."

Not happening.

[Mahk]

And im aware that If a company makes their regular sugar refined then their brown sugar will be also. If a company makes their regular sugar un refined then their brown sugar will use the un refined sugar.

Most other things you and BV wrote I concur with except this quote is not guaranteed to be true. Take for example this:

"Some refined sugars use bone charcoal as a decolourant. In the UK Tate and Lyle and Billingtons sugars are free of animal substances. British Sugar, trading as Silver Spoon (the largest UK supplier) state that their white sugar is vegan but they cannot guarantee their brown sugars as some bone charcoal may be used by their suppliers."

Source.

[brad3104]

I did not know that about the UK. I knew most of their "regular" sugar did not use the bone char. Thats a bit weird that their regular sugar is vegan and brown maybe not, thats an interesting fact. I guess i was more refering to where i live as here most refined sugars do use the bone char. I was under the impression here that if a specific company does not use bone char for their regular sugar then that same specific company does not use it for their brown sugar and vice versa. Are you saying that this is not true for the USA as well?

Also I agree that cutting out the use of bone char in one specifc thing like the consumption of sugar, when its used in so many other things does seem a bit trivial. However the #1 reason why i became is vegan is for health (#2 is for animals of course and is a close #2). Which means that i am eating healthier things and also that its like some form of strict eating plan for me. So by cutting sugars out that use bone char im cutting back on the amount of sugar i intake which, because i have less options, is healthier i believe. Saving a couple cows with the bone char thing is nice as well

Also cutting out sugar that used bone char as best as i can is something i just want to do. I know tons of other things use it, but to me their is extra value on it when it goes into my body. Also if i let that part slip i feel i will be more inclined to let other small vegan slips pass by. Obviously i can only do this to a certain point. I'm obviously not going to question things like in the PF changs example u provided. That is a bit extreme.

Everyone has certain lines they draw i guess. The main point is for me limiting my sugar by limiting my options helps me stay healthier

[Mahk]

Yes, the UK brown sugar situation seems odd to me as well since most companies that make brown sugar simply take their normal sugar that they make and simply mix it with molasses to gain the flavor and the distinctive dark brown color.

Don't of course confuse "brown" with "light beige/natural colored" sugar which is most likely not filtered and therefore bone char filtered free.

Like the other nutritionally void white devil, salt, sugar is completely devoid of any vitamins, minerals, protein, etc. It does have carbohydrates though in an unhealthy form so if stuck on a desert island eating sugar would keep you alive for a few more days/ weeks before the other nutrient deficiencies would kick in and kill you compared to eating nothing. Don't let the makers of alternative sugars such as "agave syrup" (very similar to honey, try it), rice syrup, corn syrup, maple syrup, etc fool you. Their amount of residual/ trace nutrients are inconsequential in the amounts we consume them in. The one exception is molasses and specifically "blackstrap molasses" which does have some calcium, magnesium, potassium, and some other useful things but its super strong flavor can overwhelm many foods so it has limited use IMO.

Are you saying that this is not true for the USA as well?

You have to contact each company separately and in the case of Dominos even tell them the batch code of the bag you have questions about.

Limiting your sugar intake is not a bad idea health wise but worrying about what kind of sugar it is and whether it is bone char filtered won't better your health, however it may benefit the "health" of the cattle that weren't killed to make it.

[brad3104]

I know but like I said by limiting the kinds of sugar I can have will in many ways limit the amount of sugar i consume. I guess its a self control trick or something. If i just eat any kind of sugar their is I have a feeling im just going to pig out and eat way too many things with sugar. But if i limit myself to specific sugars (ones that dont use bone char....as much as is reasonabley possible...like the public water i cant control or a few other things u mentioned) then i will consume less sugar.

For example at work if there is some juice/drink with extra "sugar" in the ingredients im not going to have it as most likely it contains sugar that used bone char in the process. and might be foreced to drink bottled water or something. In this case I saved myself from 30-50g of sugar And of course like i said it saves some cows and is part of being vegan for me (the ones that draw the line where u do is fine of course....everyone draws the line somewhere ) so it really gets 2 birds with 1 stone for me. Poor bird

When i have something a bit strict diet wise like being vegan it really helps me follow it all the way, rather than if i was a meat eater and just saying....hmm im going to TRY and eat better. It doesnt work well for me like that when i have 100 million food options and choices...I use to pig out at times back then. Now that I'm vegan and options are much more limited im eating much healthier and the right amount.

Now that I think about it its just crazy how the world makes it so hard (or frustrating at times at least) for people to be vegan. Theres so many animal products in things that dont even need them. And the tricks and confusion companies use with food labels and the process in which the food is made is a bit depressing.

[Mahk]

OK then.

"Poor bird." LOL. We like to make vegan substitutions for such jokes here. It is as easy as shooting tofu in a barrel.

[brad3104]

lol. Hmm what should i use for the 2 birds saying?

[Mahk]

I dunno...make it up...maybe "I killed two sandwiches in one sitting"?

OK, not as good, but I think you get the idea.

[missbettie]

Mahk... that... just no Mahk....not funny....

[veganwitch]

lol. Hmm what should i use for the 2 birds saying?

You can slice two carrots w/ one knife.

Source is the Vegan Vittles cookbook. They have different sayings sprinkled throughout the book to counteract the traditional non-vegan ones.