Re: where do you draw the line
Regarding your leatherbound journal Susan: i think that if you write the gist of what you just posted in there somewhere (the inside cover maybe?) then your stance would be clear to anyone who may otherwise get the wrong idea.
I'm not sure i made that point very well, sorry bout that.
Re: where do you draw the line
I'm a very new vegan and I already comitted to this dinner party before I became a vegan.
In the past at gay functions, there is always something for the vegetarians, and I only met the host once and I felt it was way getting too close to the party to tell him I'm vegan.
I found out from the caterer only the salad and the bread were vegan ( no eggs, no dairy...etc.)
It was a buffett style and I panicked and I didn't want the host to see me with an empty plate. I went to the bathroom to kill time then came out and tried to be the last one in line.
By the time, I got to the food the salad was almost gone and I just got some lettuce on my plate and bread. But at least, I was able to avoid the host.
I admit it was my mistake because next year I would bring my own vegan food. The interesting thing is that my sister who is not a vegan but since she is a practicing Muslim she couldn't eat most of the stuff because it had pork or ham. I told her for the first time I know what she goes through and I will tell her in the future if the food has alcohol or pork.
Any how, this was my first social non-vegan event and I learned my lesson...........peace, Mike
Re: where do you draw the line
Just fyi, some caterers might make you vegan food if they know in advance. We attended a holiday party years ago and the caterer made yummy portobellos, wild rice, etc...our food was AMAZING and we got to take all the left overs home with us!!Arabfrancophile
I admit it was my mistake because next year I would bring my own vegan food. The interesting thing is that my sister who is not a vegan but since she is a practicing Muslim she couldn't eat most of the stuff because it had pork or ham. I told her for the first time I know what she goes through and I will tell her in the future if the food has alcohol or pork.
Bridget
"Violent means will give violent freedom."
~Mohandas K. Gandhi
Re: where do you draw the line
I have an old pair of leather boots (pre-vegan days) and I decided to ware them out, but everytime I put them on I can't bear to wear them. I have to take them off. I've also got a tub of marmite in the fridge my friend bought and left here, which i'm eating and not re-placing (obv because of their testing on animals etc). Fortunately I haven't been caught in one of the awkward situations described in these posts... yet
Re: where do you draw the line
No I definately would not! Every Easter I get a pack of creme eggs as a gift off someone that knows I'm vegan but obviously doesn't know what it means. i jsut give them away to an Omni I know, who is very appreciative lol. they don't go waste and the people who give them to be is not offended. I just say thanks I appreciate the gift!
Re: where do you draw the line
I still use things I already own which probably are with animal products in them, but if someone offered me food already cooked I'd maybe tell them to put it in a fridge for later for someone to eat later. What's the point in throwing makeup away when you could use it up before buying vegan make up later?
Re: where do you draw the line
^ yeah exactly. I don't really wear makeup much anymore but I'm not going to throw out all my stuff that I already had before. It's just wasteful. I do have stuff I can't really bring myself to wear so I just give it to my sister.
As far as eating food I'm offered, I do my best not to eat food I know has animal products in it. I try not to obsess about the smaller stuff though. I draw the line when I find myself completely stressed out over a product ingredient.
Re: where do you draw the line
I don't eat anything that has any animal product in it. I politely state that I cannot eat a particular food and I have yet to encounter any problems. The only item I have in my wardrobe that is not vegan is a little grey cardigan I got before I was vegan and even then it only has 13% wool in it, I rarely wear it but I don't see the point in throwing it away as it is often useful for wearing under jackets when it's chilly out. I read the ingredient list of everything I eat unless there is a vegan label on it, (even products I have checked before as they often change the ingredients)This may sound a bit OCD but it doesn't bother me as it only takes a minimal amount of time and it salves my mind knowing that what I am eating does not contain animal products.
Go Vegan, stay Human
Re: where do you draw the line
^ that's what I do. I joke with my mom that I "read labels for a living" haha. I don't even trust the vegan label sometimes cause some of those products have honey (grr...)
Re: where do you draw the line
I'm not trying to be funny but do you eat only 'vegan organic' vegetables? I ask this because surely conventionally grown vegetables will contain traces of animal fertiliser (bone blood etc).I don't eat anything that has any animal product in it. I politely state that I cannot eat a particular food and I have yet to encounter any problems. The only item I have in my wardrobe that is not vegan is a little grey cardigan I got before I was vegan and even then it only has 13% wool in it, I rarely wear it but I don't see the point in throwing it away as it is often useful for wearing under jackets when it's chilly out. I read the ingredient list of everything I eat unless there is a vegan label on it, (even products I have checked before as they often change the ingredients
leedsveg
Re: where do you draw the line
I'm not trying to be funny but do you eat only 'vegan organic' vegetables? I ask this because surely conventionally grown vegetables will contain traces of animal fertiliser (bone blood etc).
leedsveg
It's not really an ingredient, though, is it? (disgusting as it may be). Vegan organic veg isn't an option in the U.K is it, unless you grow your own?.
Re: where do you draw the line
I think nearly vegan is definitely better than eating meat and dairy and eggs all willy-nilly. I would definitely encourage someone and celebrate their decision to cut out most animal products, and encourage them to go all the way with it eventually. But if you are consciously making the decision that you will eat eggs and dairy if someone makes it for you or gives it to you, then you aren't a vegan. And I think it does confuse people and make it harder for those of us who are vegan when people who are not fully committed to being vegan call themselves vegan. I know there's a lot of debate about honey, trace ingredients, white sugar, etc., and everyone one here probably has a slightly different place where they "draw the line," but there's really no debate at all about whether vegans will consciously eat foods made with eggs and dairy--vegans do not.
Re: where do you draw the line
^ I have to agree.
Now that's hardcore, but that would drive me insane if I tried to be THAT pure. Never been so happy to be able to draw my own line...I'm not trying to be funny but do you eat only 'vegan organic' vegetables? I ask this because surely conventionally grown vegetables will contain traces of animal fertiliser (bone blood etc).
leedsveg
Re: where do you draw the line
I've never heard of vegan produce. I feel like theres no practical way to go about that without growing your own or only buying from local farmers who don't.
When people ask me about how anal I am about not using animal ingredients I guess the best answer I can give is unfortunately its almost impossible to be completely removed from animal ingredients. I do the damnedest I can not to consume animal products, but for instance what about the glue holding your label on a bottle or consumer item, sure you bought non-leather shoes, but once again glue. What about spending your money at stores or to brands that aren't completely vegan, the money can certainly go to buying non vegan items.
It is completely possible to make everything without the use of animals but for some reason people find the need to slip them into the oddest things. Just try as hard as you can. You may offend someone who worked very hard to make you a non-vegan dish, but give it to someone or explain its not in your belief system, they don't have to get it.
Re: where do you draw the line
I know where I draw the line. I am just trying to figure out where to draw the line in giving others "advice," you know? Like, should I only give people advice if they ask for it? When should I call them out on it? And then, on the one hand, I really appreciate anyone who is more or less vegan, and I appreciate people avoiding meat to the greatest extent they're comfortable with... but on the other hand, I know that sometimes people just need to be nudged to grow stronger. They need someone to say, "You can do it. Give it a shot."
I def. would not eat a cupcake so as not to hurt someone's feelings! I think that saying, "I'm vegan. I will not eat this cupcake," is a political statement. It's putting your beliefs into practice socially, making a stand. I would eat a cupcake if it were going to waste and I were truly hungry... but not with someone else. Eating the cupcake in front of someone else is like saying, "Hey, it's okay to eat buttery cupcakes once in a while!" No. It's not, really. Cupcakes should never be made of butter to begin with. But in the situation I mentioned, well, it's not a black and white "good" thing, it's just like... a lion has to eat other sentient beings to survive - not black and white, not "good," but it simply is. Of course, as moral beings, and omnivores, we have options the lion never has, but in that case I wouldn't want to "waste" the cupcake.
"To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha
Re: where do you draw the line
^ My rule of thumb is to give advice when it is asked for. Otherwise, it comes across as pushy. I do agree that some people need an extra "nudge" (I being one of them). But I would suggest not to do it unnecessarily. I would hate to "nudge" someone that doesn't want/need it.
Re: where do you draw the line
hm I'm not even sure if this rum I'm drinking is vegan. Its from columbia, a gift from my dads coworker. I can't find any info on it, but I highly doubt it cos rarely does rum use animal ingredients unlike beer and wine where some ppl feel the need to use nasty stuff like insinglas (spelling?) still with every sip I'm thinking about it and it makes me nervous.
This is a whole 'nother debate but as far as my knowledge and my reading up about vegan & non vegan items spirits are generally fine.
but this is what goes through my mind, 99.9999999% of the time I only consume things I know for certain are 100% vegan. I even double check these things..
Re: where do you draw the line
Well, I dunno. I am not ready to adopt a "rule of thumb." I often get annoyed with "pushy" people, but sometimes I like them. I think you can encourage people without being "pushy," though of course different people will take it differently.My rule of thumb is to give advice when it is asked for. Otherwise, it comes across as pushy. I do agree that some people need an extra "nudge" (I being one of them). But I would suggest not to do it unnecessarily. I would hate to "nudge" someone that doesn't want/need it.
But I feel like I should try to go a while without trying to change things, and maybe that will help me figure out when I should and when I shouldn't.
"To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha
Re: where do you draw the line
IMO, you could give the most humble advice in the world and someone is bound to still take it wrong.
Sounds good to me. But only if you're comfortable with that.
Re: where do you draw the line
Hi celebrant
I think the point I was making about eating 'non-vegan-organic' food was that it's difficult if not impossible to be an absolutist. If we see our veganism as compassion for all creatures, human animals included, then I could imagine scenarios where eating a food item with animal in it eg trace ingrediant, egg etc would be the compassionate, vegan, thing to do. For instance if I had been a vegan on that aeroplane that crashed in the Andes in 1972 and survived, I too would have eaten my dead companions (human animals) or any other 'animal foods available'. How many vegans would have preferred to have died in that situation because their 'vegan manta' ='we never eat anything (with) animal (in it) -was strongerthan their vegan compassion for themselves in wanting to survive? Not many I suspect.
leedsveg
Re: where do you draw the line
Hey leedsveg-- Thanks for the personal note, but if you look at the content of my response I was actually addressing the original question of "where do you draw the line?" and whether someone is a vegan if they consciously and willingly choose to eat the basic avoidable animal products.
The non-vegan-organic-produce question felt hairsplitting and off topic, so I wasn't even touching it (it can be hard to tell what people are getting at online sometimes). But with your explanation I do see what you were trying to get at about it being impossible to be absolutist (which I've discussed as well in other threads). I think most people get that though (at least I hope). There's definitely a difference between eating a cupcake that you find as you're rummaging for food on your crashed airplane and a cupcake you eat because your neighbor made you cupcakes. It's one thing if your life depends on it and another if you want to just avoid an uncomfortable situation.
I used to get upset, as a vegetarian (and still do as a vegan), when people who eat fish would call themselves vegetarians. I would always correct them and tell them there's a word for that called pescetarian and that vegetarians do not eat any animal flesh--and fish are animals. As someone else pointed out, that's the very thing that leads to vegetarians being served fish, because people know so many "vegetarians" who eat fish. So if someone chooses to eat eggs and dairy products on occasion for the sake of fitting in or not hurting someone's feelings they lead people to believe, if they are calling themselves "vegan", that it's standard for vegans to do so.
I have a friend taking the Vegan Challenge this month (see activist thread) who told me she's going to stay vegetarian and, although she's going to eat vegan at home, she will eat non-vegan but vegetarian items if she goes to someone's house or something like that, so she won't call herself vegan. I think what she's doing is great and a huge step forward in being compassionate, conscious and non-harming--but she's not vegan, and I appreciate her not trying say she is.
Re: where do you draw the line
Hi celebrant
Thanks for your response and for being so understanding, when, as I admit, I'd gone off at a bit of a tangent. If I ever fly over South America, I'll make sure any cupcakes I take with me are vegan-just in case.
Best wishes
leedsveg
Re: where do you draw the line
It did seem though Leedsveg as though you were directing your point at TheAlterEgo.Hi celebrant
I think the point I was making about eating 'non-vegan-organic' food was that it's difficult if not impossible to be an absolutist.
As she is my daughter and I provide most of her food.............I can say that we use as much 'organic' food as we can, but not all we eat is organic. My daughter was just stating that she doesn't eat anything that has animal product in it.
We could all just sit in a room and wait to die of course.............oh no, wait .............we're all going to die of strokes anyway as we're vegan so what the Hell!
I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty
Re: where do you draw the line
LOL... Good rule of thumb!
Re: where do you draw the line
If someone gave me something non-vegan, a polite no-thanks works well. For example, people sometimes will bring me a cappuccino back from the staff hall at work. These are made with cows milk, so a polite 'Thanks for thinking of me, but I don't drink milk... perhaps someone else would like it' works okay. If I accept it 'just once, to avoid upsetting them' it just confuses the issue of what veganism means.
To be honest, everyone I would eat with knows I'm vegan. I think they have an equal duty towards 'politeness' in not giving me food that could offend me as I do in not refusing it. If they can't be bothered to learn what veganism is and respect my choices, maybe I don't so much want to 'break bread' with that kind of person.
I do, however, eat things made on the same line as milk/egg products. For me, it's not funding/sustaining the dairy/meat industry, so I just deal with it, once companies have a wider range of foods that don't contain milk/eggs etc, then it'll be easier to harass for separate lines, but sticking to vegan specialist foods means we remain a small market, and one easily ignored.
Re: where do you draw the line
I do the same thing. To me, eating things made on the same line as milk and eggs is the same as eating vegan products made by a company that also makes non-vegan products.
Re: where do you draw the line
Exactly what happened to me;
Buying second-hand leather is a difficult one. I think you should not buy it but it's a personal choice. I also would not buy anything with a brand name on it that I could not remove. I'm sort of a brand vegan too and will not advertise for anyone.
Having said that, I found a brand-new, perfect-fit pair of Levis in a second hand shop a couple of years ago. They had the shop swing tags still on them! I could not resist as getting such a perfect fit for next to nothing (and in a shop I support, Age Concern) so I bought them and took the leather patch off to go in the cloth recycling bins. Hmmm...naughty. I also unpicked the Levis patches of course.
Re: where do you draw the line
The Vegan Society in England do a really good wallet; plenty of pockets, not too big and (being contrary to my last post) just about the only logo I don't mind displaying!
Re: where do you draw the line
Why not fill yourself up on your own vegan food before you go and then you can ignore the party food and simply enjoy the party?
The easiest thing to do is simply not eat and say "I'm not really very hungry, but thanks" and then carry on being the life and soul of the party!
Re: where do you draw the line
leedsveg has a point though. Some vegan organic stuff is available but it's rare, extremely rare.
I think that, like small acorns eventually turning into oaks, all vegans who want to eat organic should press for vegan organic food by asking or mentioning or lobbying or investigating. The more it's possible to buy from local producers, the easier it is of course.
Now I'll get a barrage of posts telling me off for insulting those with only thirty-eight pee a week to spend on food.
It's only a suggestion: those who can, should. Vegan organic is a pursuable ideal, in the same way as getting the vote or abolishing the death penalty was.
Re: where do you draw the line
It would be great if there was more vegan organic produce out there. Buying vegan organic fruit and veg is one thing but what do we do about all the other products we buy? What about flour, bread, tinned food etc the ingredients in them are not even organic a lot of the time, never mind vegan organic!
I just wish I could live in the world in say about 100 years time, maybe then things would be more vegan............at least I would hope so.
I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty
Re: where do you draw the line
Virtually everything a vegan could eat is available in organic - flour, bread, tinned food, the lot - but (a) it is often hard to find, (b) it is not stocked by megamarkets and (c) it's often too expensive for many.Buying vegan organic fruit and veg is one thing but what do we do about all the other products we buy? What about flour, bread, tinned food etc the ingredients in them are not even organic a lot of the time, never mind vegan organic!
It is there but it takes effort to find, Sandra; I imagine in northern Ireland it is no easier than it is here in the west.
Re: where do you draw the line
Probably going off-topic here, so apologies, but here's an article worth reading about GMOs and the usual suspects.
Re: where do you draw the line
I know there is a small section of tinned organic stuff but I'm talking about every single ingredient that you might buy say in a sauce or something like that. Most of the groceries that we vegans buy in supermarkets do probably not have totally vegan organic ingredients.
It comes back to it being a case of doing the best you can in a non-vegan world I'm afraid!
I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty
Re: where do you draw the line
Since more animal products are used to produce organic products than regular food I don't see purchasing organic as a step in the right direction to getting vegan organic food.
"I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth
Re: where do you draw the line
So you advocate doing nothing, then? That's how your post comes across.
Purchasing vegan organic food is a step.
And talking to the people who produce organic food is too.
Re: where do you draw the line
Are you talking about sauce you make yourself? That's easy to make totally organic, depending upon the recipe of course. As for bought sauce, there are dozens available where the only non-organic ingredients are those permitted: usually water and salt.
Not vegan organic, no, but if it states organic on the container, it really should conform to a standard, such as the Soil Association's, in which case again, there are one or two accepted non-organic ingredients.
Too true: but don't give up. Use what purchasing power you have. Vegan organic is achievable and desirable and I say again, if you can, you should. If you can't afford it, you can write or be vocal.It comes back to it being a case of doing the best you can in a non-vegan world I'm afraid!
Don't let naysayers grind you down!
Re: where do you draw the line
Yes we should never let them grind us down David!
Out of interest do you yourself only use food that is vegan organic or do you use other food aswell?
I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty
Re: where do you draw the line
I advocate not purchasing organic food (vegan organic is a different matter), if that's doing nothing then being vegan is also doing nothing.
"I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth
Re: where do you draw the line
But small-time organic farmers are far more receptive to the idea of vegan organic, so not encouraging organic growers in the first place is counter-productive, a bit like expecting a meat eater to go vegan without any intermediate steps.
Re: where do you draw the line
The answer to your question is yes!Out of interest do you yourself only use food that is vegan organic or do you use other food aswell?
But then it got long-winded.
I try my best with vegan organic but options are limited - especially here in the west of Ireland. But I see vegan organic as being an achievable ideal (though there's no money in it for agribusiness) so I do what I can to encourage. Not easy when surrounded by notorious meat and milk producers and consumers...
However, we have an understanding family running a wholefood shop in town who do their best and are remarkably tolerant of me. We also have a small bunch of organic farmers in the area who I try to buy from, a couple of whom are vegan organic.
Naturally, you tend to find that smaller (non-vegan) organic farmers are receptive and sympathetic towards the notion of vegan organic so the subject doesn't have to be explained every time. You're on the same level at the start, which is a great help.
Most importantly (and luckily), the female who chose to share my life and marry me is growing vegan organic vegetables in our garden. I go out to work in a 'proper' job and she has chosen to be the homemaker. I don't earn a great wage but, as mentioned elsewhere, veganism is cheap - and more so if you can grow some food, so we manage to get by rather well.
She is also very knowledgeable on the vegan organic subject, which makes it easier to counter the idea that it's impossible or undesirable for some reason.
The vegan philosophy spills over - so we have an extremely low CO2 'footprint', by cycling whenever possible (I cycle the 10kms to and from work, for instance), having solar heated water, a woodburner, compost toilet, plenty of trees for fuel, a highly insulated small house - thus our overall financial outgoings are low and I'm always trying to save money some how.
Don't I go on?
Re: where do you draw the line
I'm a great fan of organic food and try to buy as much of my foodstuff as organic. It can be expensive but I appreciate that it can cost more to produce so don't mind paying the extra. Of course organic is difficult if your on a tight budget.
Boom, boom
Re: where do you draw the line
Fair play to you; Risker's and LeedsVeg's points are valid, though. What's your opinion?
Re: where do you draw the line
I threw out my leather when I gave up meat (not dairy), partly because I felt that by wearing it, I am advertising it as an acceptible industry. Going vegan, I got rid of all my wool stuff too....
However, I do have a drum I was given for my 20th birthday that I keep.
I draw the line when it comes to medicine... I have in the past and sadly may in the future have to go on medication for my mental health, though I am exploring other routes to balance, like acupuncture. I avoid anything pharmacutical as much as possible, most recently trying to give up paracetamol, which is sometimes hard when I am menstruating. Pain is the body's way of being awake though... To an extent?
I don't need to compromise my veganism for my family and friends. If we're having a meal together, I always offer to cook. If we go out, I ask for a jacket and beans if it's a non veggie place.
I don't really hang around with people who don't respect my boundaries and respecting boundaries means respecting ethical and religious aspects to behaviour and practices. It would be quite rude for example, to say to a devout Muslim "c'mon... just a sip of this beer!" if they really aren't comfortable with it... Fortunately, vegan food can cater for any spiritual, health and ethical lifestyle!
Eating organic though... I've just been laid off. I try to eat as local as possible (would rather buy a product produced in the UK than the same more expensive and organic produced in Peru!)... It can be hard.
I really hate being on a low income because I feel it limits me in a way to the ethical descisions and activism I can get involved with. I try to be as earth friendly as possible, but sometimes you get an information overload of all the harm in the world we indirectly do through our lifestyles...
Re: where do you draw the line
Poor you. What's your prospects? I wish you all the luck in the world.
Re: where do you draw the line
I heard some chicken farmers talking about why they went 'free range' recently. Legislation forced them to open the barn doors, since they could not meet temperature control regulations in the summer. They say they are quite happy with the extra money... I wonder if they will switch back to battery farming when they have saved enough for the air conditioning?
One guy on telly [country file I think], picked up a premature lamb, while discussing how it would need extra care and attention, gave it a loving wiggle, and said " You're rubbish aren't you..".
I am regularly struck by the guiding principles which reveal themselves during early morning "farming today" interviews on Radio 4. Usually profit, family attachment to land.
Pride in stewardship seems the most hopeful line of encouragement... something which christian churches are beginning to concentrate on too.
So I suppose I try to draw lines according to intentions as well as to causes and effects.
Problematic is waking someone whom pretends to sleep.
Re: where do you draw the line
I'm on a waiting list in the final process for a government department...
So fingers crossed....
Hope I don't get too bored.
Last edited by puca; May 14th, 2009 at 12:10 PM. Reason: But not poor me... I am looking forward to the freedom and won't be much worse off!
Re: where do you draw the line
Money, money, money every time; 'the means is more important than the end' comes to mind.I heard some chicken farmers talking about why they went 'free range' recently. Legislation forced them to open the barn doors, since they could not meet temperature control regulations in the summer
One guy on telly [country file I think], picked up a premature lamb, while discussing how it would need extra care and attention, gave it a loving wiggle, and said " You're rubbish aren't you..".
I am regularly struck by the guiding principles which reveal themselves during early morning "farming today" interviews on Radio 4. Usually profit, family attachment to land.
Re: where do you draw the line
The suggestion that organic vegetables are not vegan seems somewhat ludicrous to me. I had not heard of vegan organic until today.
Boom, boom
Re: where do you draw the line
It's the medium in which they're grown that's the problem: non-vegan organic growing encourages the animal husbandry industry.
I have far less of a problem with having animals around an organic farm purely as pets (ducks eating slugs comes to mind and I know of people who'd rather share their home with a pig than many other animals) than the mainstream use of keeping them specifically for their manure.
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