where do you draw the line

[sandra]

I think everyones circumstances are different and if it is possible to buy organic or vegan organic or whatever food is most sympathetic to veganism then we should (if we can) buy that.
You are lucky David that you have a lovely wife who can grow the kind of food you want. I am certainly not in that situation, if my family was to wait for me to grow my own food they would all starve to death! I just don't have the required area of land to grow vegetables etc, plus there's the added fact of 11 cats running all over it if I was to grow stuff!

By the way were you saying 'Yes' to both parts of my question David?

[DavidT]

Yes, Sandra.

The answer is I would use vegan organic as much as possible; organic as a second choice; 'ordinary' but locally-grown food as a third (though I often choose 'ordinary' local over foreign organic); plus of course, a perhaps even more important issue, GMO-free food.

I pity the Americans - they have no choice to but to eat GMOs; their labelling legislation is severely compromised by the agri-pharm business.

[cobweb]

Yes, Sandra.

The answer is I would use vegan organic as much as possible; organic as a second choice; 'ordinary' but locally-grown food as a third (though I often choose 'ordinary' local over foreign organic); plus of course, a perhaps even more important issue, GMO-free food.

I pity the Americans - they have no choice to but to eat GMOs; their labelling legislation is severely compromised by the agri-pharm business.

But in some areas (such as parts of California) i've been led to believe that vegan organic food is easily available. I haven't been there for many years so only have someone else's word for that.
I have never come across it here.

Animal manure is also used in non-organic farming, isn't it, so is human sewage. Ideally i would grow all my own food, since this isn't possible for me right now i just get the best and most local i can afford/source.

[DavidT]

Animal manure is also used in non-organic farming, isn't it, so is human sewage.

Yes to both.

Is veg grown utilising humanure vegan?

Or must the humans who produce it be vegan too?

A breast-fed baby must be vegan - but what if the mother isn't?

[sandra]

Yes, Sandra.

Oh, I see. So, like I said in an earlier post it is impossible for vegans to use totally organic or vegan organic produce.

[baby_vicuña]

But in some areas (such as parts of California) i've been led to believe that vegan organic food is easily available. I haven't been there for many years so only have someone else's word for that.

I've lived in California all my life. There is plenty of access to organic food here. There are organic supermarkets, farmer's markets, locally grown stuff, etc. I'm slowly talking my mom into shopping for produce and such at a local organic grocery store with a bunch of vegan options.

Personally, I try not to get too caught up in the organic or not organic ordeal. It's too stressful for me. Plus, I'm still a teen, I still depend on my parents . Eating vegan is my first priority. Then comes healthy foods and then organic (and all three often are the same thing. I love being a vegan ) When I'm older and supporting myself, I'll worry about how the food is grown and whatnot. For now, I'm just trying to stay sane.

[cobweb]

I've lived in California all my life. There is plenty of access to organic food here. There are organic supermarkets, farmer's markets, locally grown stuff, etc. I'm slowly talking my mom into shopping for produce and such at a local organic grocery store with a bunch of vegan options.

Personally, I try not to get too caught up in the organic or not organic ordeal. It's too stressful for me. Plus, I'm still a teen, I still depend on my parents . Eating vegan is my first priority. Then comes healthy foods and then organic (and all three often are the same thing. I love being a vegan ) When I'm older and supporting myself, I'll worry about how the food is grown and whatnot. For now, I'm just trying to stay sane.

yes, but i meant specifically *vegan* organic food, e.g organics grown without any animal ingredients such as manure including animal waste, blood and bone, etc.........have you come across that where you live?

[baby_vicuña]

yes, but i meant specifically *vegan* organic food, e.g organics grown without any animal ingredients such as manure including animal waste, blood and bone, etc.........have you come across that where you live?

There's such a thing??!! Sorry, totally missed your point. Nope, nothing like that here so far as I've seen.

[xrodolfox]

If I ever fly over South America, I'll make sure any cupcakes I take with me are vegan-just in case.

I fly over that part of the Andes on occasion. I've yet been in a situation where I've had to compromise my ethics. Well, except for that one bloke.

All joking aside, I "draw the line" as close as I can to perfection. In practice that line moves a tiny tiny bit, in a degree that anyone but me would notice. I avoid the monodiglicerides in breads, and you know, all the other more obvious non-vegan ingredients. I avoid buying from notorious animal testing places. I also gave away all my leather and wool and silk goods in 1994, within a few weeks of going vegan. At the time, I found some used pair of canvas boat shoes that I never wore, and I wore them until they wore out.

I'd say that for a new vegan, the idea is to go as close to perfect as possible. It is easier when you start to go all the way. I'd generally suggest to give away items with leather, wool, or silk. If you don't have $$$, it is easy enough to find those items in a vegan version for cheap or for free at used stores or dumpstering, or if they have money, to buy them new. Giving stuff away might be "wasteful", but frankly, saving animals by creating a succint living example that a person can be perfectly blissful with a fabric wallet is a powerful statement, while using a leader wallet isn't just about reusing, it is also making a statement that animals are fine to use for our comfort and pleasures so benign as money holders. Using animal products, even casually, contributes to animal slavery by creating a dialogue with fellow humans that frames animals as ours to exploit.

That's what I'd say. They can draw their line, but I'd urge them to move it consistent with the full effect of their actions.

[cobweb]

^ i fully agree with that, why be a living contradiction?

[baby_vicuña]

I agree with what xrodolfox said as well. Great points. That actually inspired me, a new vegan, to go through my things. I feel a lot better now having done so. Thanks

[Russell]

I wouldn't eat food or accept clothing that didn't conform to vegan standards and have, accordingly, refused gifts and meals on numerous occasions. I also won't use any personal care products or everyday medicines that were tested on animals or contain animal products. I do, however, take medicine for my rheumatoid arthritis even though it was likely tested on animals. I don't approve of it at all, but don't really have any other option if I want to maintain mobility and semi-normal joint functionality. I actually resisted taking the medicine (to my serious personal detriment) for two months based on my vegan beliefs, but was eventually convinced by some vegan friends to make that one compromise in the interest of my own long-term well-being. Accordingly, I suppose "essential" medications are my "draw the line" point.

Also, in the interest of protecting my notoriously injury prone ankles and knees, I DO begrudgingly wear an old pair of leather shoes whenever I play pick up basketball. I hate doing it, because I've gone to great lengths to replace every other item in my wardrobe (including casual, work and running shoes) to adhere to my vegan lifestyle. Basketball shoes, however, are a different story. They're apparently hard to find in non-leather varieties in the first place, but I wear a size 15 and have not been able to locate a single pair of basketball shoes in that size made of vegan materials. I've done google searches and made message board posts but have continually come up empty. It seems like they're actually not being made by anyone. Any help with this would obviously be massively appreciated, though.

[vegan_grrl_666]

We as vegans need to set a good example. Letting your beliefs be compromised in the presence of a non-vegan can make the entire structure weak. If the people you know think you are being rude by sticking to your personal choices and not eating their meal- then they are the ones lacking in respect and good manner! You will lose the respect of yourself and others by bending to cradle the ignorance that goes along with consuming animal products.

[Mahk]

^The trick to finding vegan belts and shoes, I find, is not to search for the word "vegan". Companies that market such goods artificially gouge us on the price since they know they have a captive audience (or market demographic, really). They are taking advantage of a form of "green guilt" we exhibit. What you want to look for is "man made material" or the word "synthetic". Here's an example from New Balance that goes up to size 15D, for example. [I personally think it is fine to wear the ones you have until they wear out, BTW.]

P.S. If you are worried that there might be some unscrutinized glue in the construction or that the rubber sole might have been processed with stearic acid (common with many rubber products) I wouldn't worry about it. I highly doubt the vendors of "vegan shoes" have looked into those aspects either and ascertaining this sort of detailed info is nearly impossible, at least with US shoe manufacturers. They don't make their glue or rubber, they buy from elsewhere, so they won't know the answer even if you ask.

[leedsveg]

If the people you know think you are being rude by sticking to your personal choices and not eating their meal- then they are the ones lacking in respect and good manners!

Hi vg666

Wished I lived in Seattle but I'm probably influenced by watching too much Frasier.

How I see it, I think these people are probably genuinely puzzled, as much as anything. Hard to remember looking back over 20 years to before I was veg*n, but I'm sure I was pretty much like that. They may have large areas of compassion in their lives that I could learn from, it's a two-way-street thing, so I have to be careful if I start 'looking down my nose' at them.

leedsveg

[AnneCE]

When I first went vegan, this was a concern of mine - that I would offend people and put them off. But the longer I am vegan, the easier it is to be clear. In the long run, this works better. If I knowingly accept something with egg in it once, it is harder to refuse it the next time.

The hardest thing I did was refuse to buy a friend cheese - I could buy it quite easily where I live and it is unavailable where she lives. She was very upset at first, and I felt bad, but I would have felt worse if I had bought it. After a day or so, she came back to me saying she wasn't upset once she had thought about it, and that she had been wrong to ask me in the first place.

Giving out mixed messages doesn't help!

And yes, there are dilemmas about what do you eat if you crash in the Andes, but realistically, how likely is that? The main dilemmas I face are about being strong as a vegan and not alienating others (all of whom I see as potential vegans).

[Quantum Mechanic]

^The trick to finding vegan belts and shoes, I find, is not to search for the word "vegan". Companies that market such goods artificially gouge us on the price since they know they have a captive audience (or market demographic, really). They are taking advantage of a form of "green guilt" we exhibit. What you want to look for is "man made material" or the word "synthetic". Here's an example from New Balance that goes up to size 15D, for example. [I personally think it is fine to wear the ones you have until they wear out, BTW.]

P.S. If you are worried that there might be some unscrutinized glue in the construction or that the rubber sole might have been processed with stearic acid (common with many rubber products) I wouldn't worry about it. I highly doubt the vendors of "vegan shoes" have looked into those aspects either and ascertaining this sort of detailed info is nearly impossible, at least with US shoe manufacturers. They don't make their glue or rubber, they buy from elsewhere, so they won't know the answer even if you ask.

Yeah, while it turned out that, of the two new pairs of shoes my mom bought me before college, that one of them (the one in the style and color I like) had some leather on it, and the other didn't. But while it was too bad that leather was used to make the shoe, the other boots I had were synthetic. Before I discovered the other pair of tennis shoes or the boots that were synthetic, I wore the old shoes that had suede on them. But the weather was better for boots anyway, especially when it snowed! Now it is a lot better to have the tennis shoes, and the ones with the leather (the ones I never wore and the ones I wore but were in good condition), I planned to give to charity instead of wearing out. I wonder if my mom did that already or if we have yet to do that.

[leedsveg]

And yes, there are dilemmas about what do you eat if you crash in the Andes, but realistically, how likely is that? The main dilemmas I face are about being strong as a vegan and not alienating others (all of whom I see as potential vegans).

Hi AnneCE

Crashing in the Andes? I agree, very unlikely. I was using this as an example of one of the 300 trillion things that could happen happen in our lives where we have previously said 'I would never ever do such and such a thing eg eat flesh, but then when confronted with a reality, we may just do it. The Andes example was me trying to make things as stark as possible.

And if an omnivore wants to offer me £1M to eat a pork pie......!

leedsveg

[AnneCE]

Crashing in the Andes? I agree, very unlikely. I was using this as an example of one of the 300 trillion things that could happen happen in our lives where we have previously said 'I would never ever do such and such a thing eg eat flesh, but then when confronted with a reality, we may just do it. The Andes example was me trying to make things as stark as possible.

It just reminded me of one of those things omnis put to you - ah, you'd eat meat then, so you're not really a vegan, are you?!

But yeah, we probably all have a line we would cross, if we are honest. When I read the news and disaster novels, I always think, why do people struggle on instead of giving up? I think I would be overpowered by despair. Maybe the reality is that that our instinct for survival will win out... and we need to acknowledge that the possibility of crossing the line.

[ArthurSure]

I wouldn't even think about it. As long as you're not rude about it your benefactor should understand. Bad things happen when good people do nothing, in this case accepting the food. People really should think about what they put in their mouths and if you achieve this you've have made the world a slightly better place. If they don't understand, then they will, and if they don't sod 'em!

[leedsveg]

The hardest thing I did was refuse to buy a friend cheese - I could buy it quite easily where I live and it is unavailable where she lives. She was very upset at first, and I felt bad, but I would have felt worse if I had bought it. After a day or so, she came back to me saying she wasn't upset once she had thought about it, and that she had been wrong to ask me in the first place.

Giving out mixed messages doesn't help!

Hi AnneCE

Don't ask me why I didn't add these comments in my previous posting (it's my age)!

Anyway, my mum who is 92, is currently in a care-home, for rehabilitation following a fall before Christmas, when she broke her hip and fractured her shoulder. Prior to the fall, I used to visit Mum at her flat and drive her to Waitrose. There really is nobody else to help her. If the weather was really bad, or she was not so well, I used to drive to Waitrose on my own and fully do her shopping for her. Mum likes a bit of vegan food, but no way would she ever go vegan.

So the problem was

• if Mum was ok to go to the shop, but bought non-vegan items, should I have made her walk a mile up a steep hill to get home?
• if Mum was not ok to go to the shop, should I have bought the non-vegan items for her, or made her go without?

The way I looked at it was like this:

Q Why am I a vegan?
A Because I have compassion.

Q Compassion for animals?
A Yes, but it's not just animals full stop (period): I also have compassion
for human-animals.

Q What happens if there is a situation, as above, where whatever I do, I either 'let down' the animals, or 'let down' a human-animal (Mum)?
A Then there is a choice to be made, sometimes a difficult choice.

In the instances above, I gave Mum a lift home or bought her whatever she wanted ie I 'let down' the animals. Another vegan may have made different choices. Ok, it's not 'eating a former travelling companion in the Andes type situations' but these are ones that vegans can often have to face and it's hard to see the perfect solutions.

leedsveg

[AnneCE]

Leedsveg, I forgot I had a similar situation last year - my father was dying and my mother would ask me to do some shopping, and usually there was meat and other non-vegan items on the list. I decided I would get them, she was paying, she never quite got my veganism - gets it all muddled up with food intolerance etc. and trying to explain how it was a moral thing wouldn't have got me anywhere at that particular time. Some people might have decided differently...

It's one thing to be assertive with friends who aren't relying on you, it is different with dependent family members or others.

I don't know why I forgot all about that. But I don't think I will be put in any similar positions in the foreseeable future...

[DavidT]

I do, however, take medicine for my rheumatoid arthritis even though it was likely tested on animals. I don't approve of it at all, but don't really have any other option if I want to maintain mobility and semi-normal joint functionality. I actually resisted taking the medicine (to my serious personal detriment) for two months based on my vegan beliefs, but was eventually convinced by some vegan friends to make that one compromise in the interest of my own long-term well-being. Accordingly, I suppose "essential" medications are my "draw the line" point.

It's sad that you have to compromise your beliefs because you're not able to obtain vegan medications. In an ideal world, all medications would be vegan so as to be acceptable to everyone. I hate the secrecy that goes on in such industries.

I've often thought about things like that. As I get older, aches and pains are more frequent. What, for instance, can a vegan take as the proper alternative to glucosamine and other arthritis relief?

[cobweb]

David you can get vegan glucosamine from veganstore and other online places. I also use flax oil and udos oil for mine, too.

[DavidT]

So there's a vegetable source of glucosamine? You learn something every day. Thanks for that. I'd only looked at those things you see in high street chemists' shops and didn't look further.

[cobweb]

yep, i take it myself and i think it helps a bit.

[baby_vicuña]

I feel the non-vegan medicine struggle you guys feel. I'm on two Rx meds for mental disorders, both of which of course are tested on animals. I haven't let myself see if they have any animal ingredients in them or not. It might cause me to stop taking them, and well...that would be bad. *sigh*

But on a happier note, I finally got my non-vegan leather, wool, etc things out of my room! I put them in a box and I'm going to give them to friends and Good Will I even got rid of my shell necklaces (that I had boughten years ago) and my feather dreamcatcher. I feel so renewed.

[cobweb]

well done, baby v, that does feel nice, doesn't it?
(and where is the armpit of California?)

[baby_vicuña]

Thanks and yes it sure does!
And it's Bakersfield. Lived here all my life. It's rumored that the air quality is so bad, that breathing it is like smoking a pack a day (hyperbole I'm sure, but you get the point.)

Bako in a nutshell: (my sis actually knows these guys)
[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zYMBaYJOxzs&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zYMBaYJOxzs&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

Sorry to go off-topic....

[cobweb]

ha-ha, oh, thanks, stayed in various locations round California but missed that one!

[baby_vicuña]

I don't blame you. It's a pit-stop, not a destination. (can you tell we all hate it here?)

But it's home all the same.

[penhaligon]

Hmm I think in regards to etiquette and other people's foods, you don't even have to say things like "Thanks but I don't drink milk" (unless of course they are completely aware of your veganism and are doing it one purpose).

I have a couple of friends that sometimes forget I'm vegan and will say things like "Oh you should try this milkshake, its so good!" and I know its not meant in a deliberately provocative or ironic way. If someone offers me non-vegan food with good intentions I don't even bring up my veganism, I just laugh and say something like "No, thanks, I'm fine." I'd feel like if every time I was offered non-vegan food I went into a rant about it that I was being very pushy and militant.

[OuttaStep]

i think that's whats wrong with veganism these days. when you start calling yourself vegan you better live up to what vegan means. no beating around the bush. veganism is also about tradition. i am kinda fed up with people trying to eat honey and saying its ok, or buying 2nd hand leather. no animal products! that means with everything. someone gives you cupcakes that are not vegan, give them to a unvegan friend or a person in need of food that also is not vegan

[phact0rri]

i think that's whats wrong with veganism these days. when you start calling yourself vegan you better live up to what vegan means. no beating around the bush. veganism is also about tradition. i am kinda fed up with people trying to eat honey and saying its ok, or buying 2nd hand leather. no animal products! that means with everything. someone gives you cupcakes that are not vegan, give them to a unvegan friend or a person in need of food that also is not vegan

no one can be 100% vegan. The world is not vegan friendly. There are so many biproducts used in everyday manufacture that you would never be aware of. a geltain based film, used in photography, motion pictures, professional printing? Fertilizer on produce that contain bone meal? Even a good deal of inks are not vegitable based varients.

Vegans can only go by so far. for everyone there is the level of comfort zone. I mean if you wear vegan faux fur/wool/leather will you be showcasing non-vegan ideals? These are all questions we need to ask ourselves.

To me... the bottom line, in begin a vegan is to eliminate as much animal suffering as you can. But no one claiming to be vegan should knowingly purchase things you know will effect animals, and support the suffering.

[emzy1985]

[QUOTE=phact0rri;603280]no one can be 100% vegan. QUOTE]

By the definition from the vegan society I am certainly 100% vegan..."eliminating suffering WHEREVER POSSIBLE!"

[phact0rri]

By the definition from the vegan society I am certainly 100% vegan..."eliminating suffering WHEREVER POSSIBLE!"

You win this round Emzy!

[Ms_Derious]

The longer I'm trying to be vegan for, the more I realise I can not eliminate all suffering through my actions, but more avoid causing it wherever I can.

I try my best, and sometimes I do something that's not really vegan (like feeding my sisters omni toddler cow's milk when I'm 'babysitting') because I feel it the lesser of two evils.

I think that unwaveringly following of some kind of external doctrine should never be at the expense of compassion.

You win this round Emzy!

Are you a Bond villain?

[phact0rri]

Are you a Bond villain?

*twirls his moustache*

[Marten]

I'm still wearing leather etc., I'm wearing it until the shoes/clothes etc. have to be replaced, but everything new I'm buying now is vegan. I'd rather not wear anything coming from animals but I simply don't have the money to replace everything now.

[emzy1985]

You win this round Emzy!

LMAO!

[tombenarye1234]

no - to all of the questions.

wearing leather? not only it's morally wrong, that's also really disgusting...i mean...it's something dead...i dunno about u guys, but seeing corpses really makes me nauseous.

[Panzer]

I have a line that I just wont cross. My parents try to get me to eat meat all the time. I simply say no means no. Now if i would want to eat meat I would do it but I dont forsee that happening because my health has so drasticly improved since going vegan. First and formost im a Vegan for health, its an added benifit that I ease the suffering of our voiceless four footed friends. This benefit is becoming stronger each day.

[leedsveg]

no - to all of the questions.

wearing leather? not only it's morally wrong, that's also really disgusting...i mean...it's something dead..

Isn't cotton clothing 'something dead'?

lv

[Prawnil]

The ridiculous pitfalls of the language of the Living and Dead.

[tombenarye1234]

i ment a dead animal... animals are someones... to wear someone dead... that sounds to me rather sick and preverted...=/

[Tallulah]

To me, being a true vegan is something I am based on my on beliefs and something I do for me. Therefore, I could never eat non-vegan gifts from anyone. I would hope that my sincerity in my beliefs and lifestyle is strong enough to shine through so that those that know me wouldn't even attempt to gift me with non-vegan items. But, I must say, I don't like to hurt others feelings, and if someone innocently gave me something like that, I would most likely accept the gift and find something or someone useful to give it to.

[Tallulah]

i was having a discussion the other day with a friend who is considering be coming vegan.
But in this discussion she was aying that if a friend who didnt know she was vegan brought her a gift of cupcakes or food that had animal products she to be nice and not hurt there feelings she would eat them.
And if was at someones place who had prepared a nice meal with meat and other non vegan foods would do the same.
I would not do this to be polite even though i hadnt purchesd this food with my own money or prepared it myself i wouldnt eat it just to be nice.

What are your veiws on this would you eat animal products just to be polite to your meat and dairy eating friends and family.
Would you wear second hand leather ?
As your money wouldnt be going toward the leather industry and stuff like that?

sorry about the double post!! I'm new to this!!

[leedsveg]

wearing leather? not only it's morally wrong, that's also really disgusting...i mean...it's something dead...i dunno about u guys, but seeing corpses really makes me nauseous.

I'm puzzled. Do you feel nauseous when you look at fake leather or is it only real leather that gives you that feeling? If it is just real leather, it leads to the question, how do you tell the difference? Not trying to be clever, just genuinely interested.

lv

[tombenarye1234]

I'm puzzled. Do you feel nauseous when you look at fake leather or is it only real leather that gives you that feeling? If it is just real leather, it leads to the question, how do you tell the difference? Not trying to be clever, just genuinely interested.

lv

real leather. well, if i think it's leather it makes me disgusted.

[veganpollo]

Well, in "vegan etiquette", one usually calls ahead and makes it known that they are vegan. If a friend bakes you cupcakes and they aren't vegan, how much of a friend are they to have not known that you are vegan?

It's not very complex. If you call ahead about your dietary restrictions, it's not rude of you to not accept meat/animal products. It's rude of them to have ignored your request after inviting you over.

(You is referring to a universal you. Not you or your friend.)

Your friend will figure out her own path and develop her own strategies to being vegetarian/vegan.
If she knowingly consumes animal products, then she's not considered vegan. Any contribution to less animal suffering is a good act, though.