Beaten to death for being a goth *WARNING* - Graphic images and description

[Hemlock]

We often seriously think about going out armed as we can't even go to the cinema without some yob kicking off. We can deal with two of them but not a gang of six. The police are so useless and ineffectual we feel we have no option but to do what it takes to keep ourselves safe.
The police have none nothing when me and my colleagues have been attacked by patients, in fact they tell us to drop it, I have yobs trying to break into my car everytime I go on home visits on the rough estates - if I didn't have a very good alarm system they would steal it as well, and my lovely car is now a mess of key marks down the side and dents and bits ripped off.
We're sick of it and it gets worse every day.
My solution is that every single person who is claiming benefits and is not disabled should be forced to work full time for their benefits - mowing verges, cleaning up litter, learning a trade or whatever or their benefits would be stopped immediately, this would keep the gangs off the street, teach them something useful and give them something to do.
I hate benefits day when hundreds of them gather outside the dole office and kick off outside my clinic, sometimes they come in and hurl abuse at the receptionist just for fun!!!

[emzy1985]

I think schools should educate too, as I previously posted. Passing the buck is not entirely true though. Factors affect a person which could then lead to a life of crime and violence. Ofcourse personal responsibilty is relevant, but what if you think it is actually OK to be violent to people because you actually don't know any better? What if you saw a member of your family beat the living shit outta another member of your family every single day? You could turn around and say, " well you know what? Fuck this I'm a better person." or you could say, " well maybe this ok/what I'm supposed to do!"

I don't think this thread is about taking offence. I think we are having an interesting conversation/debate etc - although it is starting to hurt my head.

I just read the Sun that somebody left on my desk and it says the two mothers have gone into hiding as they are so ashamed of their sons. Does that mean that they didn't originally think their sons did it and that was why they were laughing when being questioned by police? Who knows!? Newspapers are all bullshit anyway......IMO

[cobweb]

btw, before i come over all pompous, i have to add that i was brought up in a very nice house in village in sussex, we had all the material stuff we wanted, and i was raised to have manners, work hard and all the rest of it - yet i turned into a horrorshow nightmare when i was 13. The only thing that actually 'sorted me out' was leaving school, getting a job that was extremely tough, having a boss who expected 100% effort at all times, and having to get my shit together.
Once i left that job, which was much like being in the army (starting early in the morning, physical work all day, only 3 days off per month, basic living conditions, dangerous work, physical punishments for messing up, etc), i went back 'off the rails' and ended up in trouble again.

I have no sympathy for people who use violence as a form of entertainment but i do think there are real basic problems and issues in the U.K that demand some radical thinking asap. Apprenticeships and more opportunities, enforced if necessary, would be one avenue.

[emzy1985]

the teens who grow up seeing that their futures are hopeless, who are treated like a number at school, ignored at home, raised by the TV, who see the gap between the privileged and the rest growing ever-wider...these kids need to be offered opportunities that they haven't had before. A chance to learn skills, feel proud of themselves, achieve something.

Exactly!!!! Oh btw why are there no men partaking in this conversation? (Just something I noticed!!!)

[cedarblue]

some very good points and personal issued being raised, it's good to be informed by others who have had a different experience of life.

[absentmindedfan]

My solution is that every single person who is claiming benefits and is not disabled should be forced to work full time for their benefits - mowing verges, cleaning up litter, learning a trade or whatever or their benefits would be stopped immediately, this would keep the gangs off the street, teach them something useful and give them something to do.

Already happening. Claim JSA for more than 15 weeks and you have to go on a training course (these are the sort of people I taught). Incapacity benefit is stopping and becoming something else 'enabling benefit' or some such crap, and you are often assigned a job broker at a private company (they're springing up all over the place, luckily for unemployed ol' me) who will liaise with employers to get them PT or even FT work. Train to Gain encourages employers to fund their employees' training up to Level 2 (A-C GCSE equivalent).

Most people are grateful to have the opportunity to finally gain a qualification, some of these people can write only to the level equivalent of a 7 year old. The issue is with the JobCentre who don't crack down hard enough on the skivers and the families who pop out a sprog every few years to gain more benefits. Children are a source of income not a cherished arrival to some of these people.

What I've noticed about the unemployed is that older (25+) unemployed people are out of work due to being unskilled/heavily dyslexic/low in confidence and are not wanted in a job market that requires more and more skills and qualifications even for what would traditionally be classified 'unskilled' jobs. The younger unemployed are at a much higher level of education (usually around G grade GCSE) but have no personal discipline and simply do not care. Many come from 2nd/3rd generation benefit-claiming families and if they've grown up as a handy source of income not a loved family member and watch their parents living for 'free' (essentially) they do not see the point. Of work, of life, of anything.

[Maisiepaisie]

The issue is with the JobCentre who don't crack down hard enough on the skivers and the families who pop out a sprog every few years to gain more benefits. Children are a source of income not a cherished arrival to some of these people.

Totally agree. I'm not sure what its like these days but when I had my children we were given advice on caring for babies but there was nothing about bringing up young children. You can go for help if you have problems with your childs behaviour but surely it would be better to teach all parents basic parenting skills for dealing with babies right through to the teenage years. I know I did a lot of things wrong but only because I didn't know a better way. I would have certainly appreciated more help and advice.

[mjnewbould]

Its all so tragic - people with nothing worthwhile in their lives - many of them die young - from infancy onwards - just because no one cares for them - (themselves and their parents least of all). I suppose that life just seems totoally worthless whether their own or someone elses. Just how did we get into a society where's there's such a big gap between the "underclass" and everyone else

[Christina]

I felt awful when I heard about this a while ago, especially since the girl I live with was best friends with her at school. I have been beat up aswell by a bunch of drunk teenagers; who tried to steal my dog. People just don't shock me anymore!!

[Andy]

This is so disgusting.

We could go on for ages about what problems these people might have with drink, upbringing etc. but we have to remember that they killed somebody for no other reason than how they dress! So for me none of these issues mitigates what they did in the slightest.

In school there was pressure to either identify yourself as a "goth" or a "townie". When I used to reply to the question, "are you a goth or a townie?" with "i'm neither, i'm just me" i would get the response "but you have to be one or the other", which never did make sense to me.

Anyway each group also had its underage drinking venue, i hate talking in these terms but i used to go the the "goth" venue since it was where most of my friends went, but the "townie" venue was having problems with violence and the underage drinking and was shut down.

So they decided they were going to drink on the street and wait for us to leave, so police were frequently called to make it safe for us to leave but the gang outside was getting worse, the police would move them away and they would just come straight back, it went from just shouting abuse, to me and a friend being chased back inside by a gang after going outside to make a phonecall (thinking it would be alright since it was still early in the evening) with them proceeding to try and ram the door, then my friends boyfriend suffered a broken jaw and was left in a coma in the hands of these violent thugs, luckily he fully recovered.

Interestingly, even with the police frequently being there they never looked into the underage drinking at the "goth" venue, which was a bit strange, i was 16 at the time and there were younger people also getting served, but maybe they werent that interested because the alcohol didnt turn us into violent savages?

Anyway thats my experience on the issue, maybe its skewed my perspective a bit.

[xrodolfox]

I can only draw analogies from the UK to my experience in the USA. Unfortunately, there are a lot of similarities. Espeically with how adults treat different youth subcultures, and which ones are labelled as "dangerous" and why. One group is labelled a bunch of thugs who are training for prison, while the other is a bunch of crazy cry at home psychotics who could anyday walk into school and spray everyone with a hail of bullets with guns hidden in a trench coat.

Like Paul said, those simple stereotypes often limit more than help explain and thus "treat" the sitution.

I do think that INDIVIDUAL responsiblity and blame needs to be taken.

However, this problem is clearly not just individuals, but has *systemic* and persistent roots. Otherwise, it would just be one isolated incident. Instead, it seems like this sort of violence is routine.

That means that there are systemic causes.

Since I see a similiar problem in the US (although not as much in S. America), it seems like it is attached to at least the global north.

I am deeply saddened by this crime.

But I am quite desperate to have the public debate go into how to deal with BOTH the systemic issues, as well as the individual issues.

It seems like the more incarceration plan doesn't work. It hasn't worked in the US where the US incarcerates a higher % of people than anywhere on earth (the official US numbers are higher than in China or other totalitarian regimes).

I know a bit about "goth" "punk" "metal" subculture in the US. I do know a bit about "jock" and "thug" cultures in the US.

I don't know squat about "Chav" culture. Heck, I don't even know what "yob" stands for.

I'd like to know more. Can someone explain?

[emzy1985]

Yob was a term coined many years ago and actually refers to unruly boys. Turn it around and it spells boy.

Chav culture - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav

That pretty much explains it.

I was also interested as to what wikiepedia had to say about my subculture - any other metal heads may also be interested in this formalised account of our lives - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalhead

[Jiffy]

Wow. This is so distressingly sad.

I would think that the "chav" subculture has a large role in legitimizing this violence. I would like to know of its roots, and how it functions, and how to find alternatives to that subculture that could address the endemic violence.

"Broken Homes" and some of the other reasons given in the article are only half reasons. It seems like that whole gang (let alone just the two kids who were most responsible) is part of one of many "reasons".

I wouldn't be surprised if this started happening more often. I think that if a real analysis of the nexus of chav violence and its factors might be able to reason 1) how to address this problem and 2) if the problem is going to grow or die away.

This is one haunting and sad story. If I walked the streets of the UK at night, I'd make sure to cary some brass knuckles and a few combat classes at the least for protection. But that can't be the solution for all.

I am so deeply saddened by this article.

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with your proposed 'precautions'.

Firstly if you were daft enough to carry brass knuckles or other weapon you would be arrested and rightly so. Were you to find yourself in a 'situation' the police, if they bothered turning up, would throw the book at you for daring to defend yourself. I'm afraid that defending oneself if frowned upon over here, part of the ongoing victim culture I suppose.

As for 'combat classes' being of any use, that is just ridiculous. I would go so far to say that having a handful of lessons could actually make you more vulnerable, by virtue of giving an unrealistic sense of security.

I did Karate and Aikido for nearly ten years before family comittments in the form of three kids took over. I eventually gained my Black Belt in Karate after six years of blood sweat and toil I lost count of the number of people who joined up for a quick solution, I think about 80% didn't make it past six weeks.

It takes years of regular practice and even then much of what is taught does not really translate into sef defence per se. Self defence is as much about being aware of and managing your environment as the actual physical response to an attack.

I was fortunate in that the style of Karate I did placed great emphasis on reality. We regularly did sessions dressed in normal street clothes and even when we had had a couple of drinks or were cold wet and tired, to simulate what would happen if someone started when we were at at bus stop in the freezing rain on the way home from the pub. Even for us with some experience it was a rude awakening.

A few nicey nicey lessons done on padded mats at the lovely warm leisure centre isn't going to help anyone survive an attack from a pack of feral chav scum I'm afraid.

My son-law were attacked a couple of hundred metres from my house a couple of years back so I am talking from experience.

[cobweb]

i have to say that we (as a family, me, husband and son) have been driven further and further north (me and husband both originate from the south of england) by house prices and by this kind of incident.

nowadays the gap in house prices is narrower so that isn't such a huge factor but we chose to move to Orkney because of the low crime rate, high police success rate (75% of all crime is solved here) and old fashioned values. Lots of other people are moving/have moved to the islands for similar reasons - BUT people shouldn't have to run and hide. I am happy to be British, i love the U.K, but it's like there is an epidemic of violence and mindless crime. Only a return to values of common decency and pride can help and i cannot work out how this can be acheived - but i do hope there will be a turning point.

[emzy1985]

I bet every single person on this forum, from the UK, is within three steps of someone who has been a victim of crime or has been a victim themselves.

[harpy]

Self defence is as much about being aware of and managing your environment as the actual physical response to an attack.

Yes, years ago I worked in an office in a dodgy part of town and we got the police to come and give us some self-defence classes. They did teach a few manoeuvres that you could use to try and disarm an attacker but most of it was about keeping your eyes open to (and avoiding) threats and attracting attention if anything did happen.

You can be prosecuted for carrying any sort of weapon in the UK (such as knuckle dusters or Mace sprays), although IIRC you can get away with using stuff that you have on you anyway, e.g. a bunch of keys, provided you can prove that it's only been used in self-defence.

This is quite interesting about how "hate crimes" happen: http://www.psni.police.uk/prof_geoffrey_beattie.rtf It does seem that the problem needs to be tackled at the levels of both society and individual. Unfortunately hostility towards an "out group" seems to be a built-in tendency of humans under certain circs, one that we need to counteract.

[Astrid]

This is just so meaningless and tragic. What is the world coming to?! I just read about this incident in Mexico where 800 people had gathered in the city centrum to find 'emos' and beat them up. http://www.time.com/time/arts/articl...725839,00.html

[emzy1985]

That's some twisted shit!

[gogs67]

This is just so meaningless and tragic. What is the world coming to?! I just read about this incident in Mexico where 800 people had gathered in the city centrum to find 'emos' and beat them up. http://www.time.com/time/arts/articl...725839,00.html

This is the one i saw!
http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008...emo-riots.html

[Maisiepaisie]

OMG this is just unbelievable. I was going to say that maybe the emo bashers are jealous of those who dare to be different but I am shocked that punks and metal heads are also involved in this violence. Its very sad that so many people cannot just live and let live

[snivelingchild]

Chav culture - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav

So...they're pretty much wiggers? (Except, replace Burberry with Tommy Hilfiger...wait, that's so 90's...I mean Phat Pharm & Baby Phat now) How lame. What is rap like in the UK, I wonder?

[Jiffy]

In my opinion there is too much emphasis on the contention that the poor girl was attacked simply for being a Goth. I don't see it that way. That may have provided the vehicle as it were, but no more. She was attacked by vicious, feral, low life criminals because she was perceived to be an easy target for their twisted brainless violence.

Their chosen victim could have been anyone who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I depair at what has happened to my country.

[emzy1985]

So...they're pretty much wiggers? (Except, replace Burberry with Tommy Hilfiger...wait, that's so 90's...I mean Phat Pharm & Baby Phat now) How lame. What is rap like in the UK, I wonder?

Rap in the UK is pretty much about trying to get your arse outta the shit and more positive stuff. Most of the chavs don't listen to UK rap cuz it's not what they aspire too. Give them American Hip-Hop and ganster rap anyday. There was also a big phase of Garage and Drum&Bass (both with rap elements) but I'm not sure if that is still the case....not knowing taht many chavs atm.

When I was at school this is what the chavs aka the townies/trendies were listening to at the time - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRCBy8hrOIM
and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpx7I...eature=related

Although Lethal Bizzle and Dizzee Rascal are more popular now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpIFKKa1u-U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZGvnI37mxk

But I kinda like it when the subcultures merge and get over their differences like in this video: These boys came from just down the road from where I live - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuuZuV5NXFY

[aubergine]

Rap in the UK is pretty much about trying to get your arse outta the shit and more positive stuff.

But even if they're listening to it are they really paying attention to what it's saying?

There's been so much positive music over the years that seems to have precious little effect on it's listeners, but the negative influences are always noted by observers. I'm not sure if it's really that much of an influence, because perhaps those people are already part of a negative cycle?

[emzy1985]

Well yeh....

[Jiffy]

But even if they're listening to it are they really paying attention to what it's saying?

There's been so much positive music over the years that seems to have precious little effect on it's listeners, but the negative influences are always noted by observers. I'm not sure if it's really that much of an influence, because perhaps those people are already part of a negative cycle?

Is any of it supposed to actually be intelligible then?

[aubergine]

Is any of it supposed to actually be intelligible then?

Some (and I stress the emphasis on some) UK Hip-Hop deals with breaking free from the disadvantages and stereotypes of certain urban upbringings just like Public Enemy and others did before them.

Still doesn't matter if the listener isn't really listening...

[bryzee86]

they just like the duf-duf-duf and the wibbydibbydee to be honest.

[Jiffy]

Some (and I stress the emphasis on some) UK Hip-Hop deals with breaking free from the disadvantages and stereotypes of certain urban upbringings just like Public Enemy and others did before them.

Still doesn't matter if the listener isn't really listening...

I wouldn't through choice, that's for sure

But I don't suppose for one moment it's target audience is middle aged men with a preference for things being in something which at least approximates to English

[aubergine]

Innit

[bryzee86]

Erm..."yo"?

[cedarblue]

solid bruv!??

[snivelingchild]

Rap in the UK is pretty much about trying to get your arse outta the shit and more positive stuff. Most of the chavs don't listen to UK rap cuz it's not what they aspire too. Give them American Hip-Hop and ganster rap anyday. There was also a big phase of Garage and Drum&Bass (both with rap elements) but I'm not sure if that is still the case....not knowing taht many chavs atm.

When I was at school this is what the chavs aka the townies/trendies were listening to at the time - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRCBy8hrOIM
and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpx7I...eature=related

Although Lethal Bizzle and Dizzee Rascal are more popular now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpIFKKa1u-U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZGvnI37mxk

But I kinda like it when the subcultures merge and get over their differences like in this video: These boys came from just down the road from where I live - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuuZuV5NXFY

I love it, it's all so different. Much more like pop/hip hop to me. The only exposure I've ever had to UK rap was Lady Sovereign. Here, rap is pretty much gangsta. Around here, people listen to Lil Boosie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66_oatCcqUc
Young Jeezy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y86uFbxb5sQ
and especially Lil Wayne: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SePRNJtJQXw
and of course, the obligatory Soulja Boy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SePRNJtJQXw

However, I MUCH prefer this version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7Iz2860I94
Or just scrap the gangsta rap altogether and go for MC Chris:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRhnw1gFuDA

Anyway, back on topic, it's truly a sad event, and no matter how much we speculate, no one can know what really happened. It has, however, made me look into UK subcultures, and into things I've never heard of before.

I can't really say how people relate what subcultures to violence over here. Of course, in Louisiana, crime is heavy in low-income areas, and more black people than not live in low-income areas, and more black people than not listen to rap, and so rap is connected to violence, but gangs operate a little differently in more rural areas like mine. They do not congregate in metropolitan areas, but where they live in the ghettos. In my experience, most gang-related violence is kept within gangs and those who associate or do business with them, and there's very little random violence. What is random, is more like home invasions or rapes than street attacks, so it's very easy to see where most of the violence in my area stems from.

At the bars, people just get drunk and stupid and punch people in the face for romantic interests (jealousy, not punching people to hit on them). But then again, I don't socialize in any of these places, only hear stories.

Edit: Thread Killa...........

[gogs67]

18 years and 16 years minimum to be served!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7370637.stm

[chickpea_chica]

I'm currently revising for my forensic psychology exam in the morning (uni finals) - depressing stuff

[gogs67]

I'm currently revising for my forensic psychology exam in the morning (uni finals) - depressing stuff

These are the kind of things you're gonna have to deal with in a professional capacity if you continue down that career path. It's not pleasant but it's worthwhile!
Good luck tomorrow!

[bryzee86]

18 years and 16 years minimum to be served!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7370637.stm

Not even close to enough....

[Pilaf]

Reminds me of what happened to Brian Deneke.

[chickpea_chica]

These are the kind of things you're gonna have to deal with in a professional capacity if you continue down that career path. It's not pleasant but it's worthwhile!
Good luck tomorrow!

Thank you! I think it went okay this morning...

I don't think I'll be going into the forensic field though, I'm not assertive enough!

[LuVegan15]

Ugh. That's so horrible. They deserve so much more time than THAT. It's just sickening... the world we live in.