Children, education and discipline

**Maisiepaisie** · Mar 18th, 2008, 10:29 PM

I'm currently having a lot of problems with my 15 year old son. I'm really worried now because I've only got 8 months until he's 16 and can legally do as he pleases, even leave home. His school report was bad and he's underacheiving in most subjects. Its no surprise considering he never does his homework and often goes out of school if its a lesson he doesn't like. The school give him detention but he doesn't go so what more can they do? There are lots of other kids acting similarly that they have to deal with too.

When I was at school, if we'd acted like this we'd have been caned. Looking back, that threat was the only thing that made me toe the line because I hated having to go to school. Until recently I was very much against that kind of physical punishment but now I think maybe it wasn't such a bad thing. I feel sorry for high school teachers having to deal with todays teenagers. I know they're not all bad but there are a bunch of them probably in every school (at least where I live) who have no respect for anyone. What can we do to control these kids? Why should they knuckle down when there are few consequences for bad behaviour? It seems like the school are giving up on my son and to be honest, I would too if he wasn't my son and I didn't care about him.

I think if they'd never made physical punishment illegal, my son and other kids wouldn't be this way. What do others think? If you think caning is wrong then what other alternatives are there for disciplining kids at school?

**xrodolfox** · Mar 19th, 2008, 06:05 AM

Wow. It seems like you're really in terrible straights, and so is your son.

The school giving up on your son is a tragedy onto itself.

I actually think the opposite. I've taught college students, as well as HS students (13 to 19 years old). My wife is a teacher, and she was a professional teacher in Detroit, in the poorest area of Detroit on top of all things. She had 34 kids each hour in a room so small that there was NO space to walk to the back of the class. There was once a fight in her classroom, and she literally couldn't get to the students in the middle of the class to break up the fight because the tiny desks were packed so tight.

The stories I could tell....

I think that the problem is the opposite. I think that kids AREN'T taught how to think for themselves or how to motivate themselves UNLESS there's some physical reward or physical punishment. With those external motivators, there's really no reason to do anything of real quality. You just do what you do to make it. And if later, you realize that you don't even need to "make it", you stop trying. More punishment, or more rewards, is great short-term strategy. It works Short term better than just about anything else!

However, long term, it just doesn't work. That's the case with DARE anti-drug programs in the US. And that's the case with corporal punishment in schools (caning), and with corporal punishment by parents (spanking). It works excellently short term, but soon the child learns not to do "good" for goodness' sake, but because of fear of retaliation. The focus then becomes on how to avoid getting caught, rather than doing something good, and the ethical reasoning for it.

In my wife's school especially, we got to seem some kids who were real trouble makers. By that I mean kids who were on a path to prison. Kids that would really destroy things, show up to school heavily drugged up, and involved in illegal activities. Most of these kids were most of all, individual cases where their needs weren't being met.

My wife was overworked, and underpaid, and thus it was nearly impossible to give each kid the attention they really needed. So every night she would call students at home to talk to their parents. Most of the time, the student would give the phone to an older friend or sibling and the call would be for naught. But she kept on trying.

The thing is, that through her efforts, she was able to reach some "troubled" kids and help them out. She was able to turn things around for a few kids. If she had more time, more help, and if the kids had more resources, she might've reached quite a bit more.

Now. I went to several High Schools. The last one was quite well off. I know that some of the kids with most privilege are the most problematic.

But I think that malaise is still due to the same cause: schools and parents being over authoritarian, or under-caring. The key is to love and love and love and to not be authoritarian. This is ESPECIALLY needed from institutions like schools. That's quite the tall order.

Right now, I get to work with schools. I see how they discipline, and I'm not happy at all with it. There's little love for students, and even less freedom.

If a school behaves like a prison in training, it's only going to produce prisoners. If a school behaves like unethical CEO training camp, it's graduates will be unethical CEO's.

I think that your son's schools failed him. But I think it is much deeper than their method of punishment.

**Roxy** · Mar 19th, 2008, 06:25 AM

Maisie, I'm so sorry you're going through these troubles

I remember you mentioning somewhere that you were considering moving to a different town. Is that a realistic option for you at the moment?

I don't mean it as an excuse to "run away" from your problems, but perhaps putting your son in a new environment might help matters.

**Maisiepaisie** · Mar 19th, 2008, 09:15 PM

Xrodolfox you make some good points. The more I think about it I've come to the conclusion that there isn't a right or wrong answer to the question "Is corporal punishment good or bad?" because I think it depends on the individual. When I was growing up, my reaction to attidudes and discipline from teachers and family was very different than that of my son. I resented being told what to do, eg school uniform, homework etc. My mum told me the reason I must go to school is "because its the law", and that was all. She never took the time to explain to me the consequences of not getting a good education. Her answer to anything when I asked why I had to do anything was usually "because I said so". I feel that if she'd taken the time to explain things to me instead of just ranting, I would have listened and my attitude to school would have been different. I wouldn't have been so rebellious and would have finished school with more than just 2 CSEs. Because of my bad experience I try to explain everything to my children rather than fob them off with "because I said so" or some other lame answer that makes no sense. My 13 year old tries hard at school and gets excellent grades but I just cannot get through to my elder son. It upsets me that he will take advantage of teachers with a less authoritive attitude by being rude and disruptive in their lessons. I always tried harder for those kind of teachers, which is what I meant about myself and my sons reactions being different.

The key is to love and love and love and to not be authoritarian.

I agree with this statement when it comes to kids who are of the same mindset as I was at school, however this doesn't work for my son as he just takes the p*ss.

Roxy if I were to move now it would mean giving up my house and going into rented accomodation as I've been told that my ex would legally be entitled to half the equity, and that wouldn't leave me enough to buy another house and I cannot get a mortgage on my own as I have no job and at the moment I'm not well enough to work due to depression and anxiety. I'm still considering giving it all up though but I'm just worried that it'll create more problems and that my son will carry out his threat to run away and live on the streets if I move from this place. I was going to move near a friend who lives in the countryside in Huddersfield but we've since fell out so I don't want to go there anymore. I live near my mum here and she's been helping me a lot these past few months and we've been getting on better. The way I feel at the moment I'm pretty scared of uprooting and going somewhere where I don't know anyone.

**Janet** · Apr 5th, 2008, 08:27 PM

Hello Maisiepaisie,
I'm sorry to hear about how difficult life is for you at the moment. It sounds like you really feel in a corner. I was wondering how long your sons behaviour has been like this, has this always been his attitude or was there some trigger you can think of. It might be that he is angry/hurt/scared of somthing. He might feel that being bad is the way to get your attention, especialy if his younger brother is doing well and behaving. Also, just a thought, but you don't seem to feel that you've reached your full potential. You've probably already considered this, but why don't you investigate doing some form of further education or training. It would make a role model for your son and might help with the depression you mentioned. I appreciate you have to be in the right frame of mind for somthing like that though

**Maisiepaisie** · Apr 5th, 2008, 08:52 PM

Hi Janet. You're right about me not feeling like I've reached my full potential but I am planning to do some adult education classes when they start in the next few months

I was wondering how long your sons behaviour has been like this, has this always been his attitude or was there some trigger you can think of. It might be that he is angry/hurt/scared of somthing. He might feel that being bad is the way to get your attention, especialy if his younger brother is doing well and behaving.

His behaviour has always been a problem since he started fighting with his younger from being about 3 years old. Over the years his behaviour has got steadily worse. If you spoke to my mum she'd tell you all this is my fault. Maybe she's right. I do blame myself to an extent and I long to turn back the clock and do things differently. I wish I'd paid him more attention as he was growing up and its no excuse that I was so wrapped up in my many problems.

I know at the moment he's annoyed that me and his brother have such a close bond and he feels like he always comes second but its hard for me to have that closeness with him when he constantly lies, steals and gets aggressive and sometimes violent with his brother. He won't let me get close to him. We're starting family mediation sessions in the next week or so. Lets hope the experts can sort us out!

cobweb · Apr 5th, 2008, 09:30 PM

good luck with that, maisie.

**Janet** · Apr 8th, 2008, 10:32 PM

Good luck with your classes and the mediation. Hopefully your son will realize how important he is to you that you are prepared to go to such lengths for him. It sounds like you've made positive steps towards improving the relationships within your family. My mum always says everything is my fault as well, Grannys eh! who'd have them.