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Thread: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet?

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    AnneCE's Avatar
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    Default Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet?

    In today's Independent, an article called The Big Question: Is changing our diet the key to resolving the global food crisis?, asks Isn't it completely unrealistic for Britain to go vegan? and concludes it is!

    Grrr.

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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    Another article espousing putting a sticking plaster over a gaping wound.

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    AnneCE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    Exactly - people are starving, the planet is collapsing, but hey, I want a burger!
    And people who are thinking of going vegan, when they read this sort of "oh, it's too hard, it's too extreme" stuff are put off!

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    frugivorous aubergine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    "most people will not take readily to a diet of green leaves, pulses, fruit and nuts."
    *bangs head against table"

    Morons.

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    muxu bero bat! gogs67's Avatar
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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    I thought it was a decent article to be in the national press. It raised a lot of points that have to be addressed in the future to save millions from starvation.
    Much as i'd like it to be it's not really there to be pro vegan, rather anti excessive meat consumption which, for the mainstream papers, is not bad!
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    Isn't it completely unrealistic for Britain to go vegan?[/I] and concludes it is!
    IMO the question is just as irrelevant as...

    Can we stop all wars forever?
    Can we eliminate all suffering?
    Will soil, water and air ever be 100% healthy?
    WIll I ever reach a state where I'm happy all the time?

    Not being able to reach 'perfection' doesn't mean that we should move in the right direction....

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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    Quote Korn View Post
    IMO the question is just as irrelevant as...

    Can we stop all wars forever?
    Can we eliminate all suffering?
    Will soil, water and air ever be 100% healthy?
    WIll I ever reach a state where I'm happy all the time?

    Not being able to reach 'perfection' doesn't mean that we should move in the right direction....
    exactly, at one point not so long ago in our history man flying was a fairy tail. we might not ever see a perfect world but certainly the idea that "perfection is unattainable" should be used as a supreme goal... not an excuse. People fear change. Encouragement is the answer?

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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    It is unrealistic to think that ALL humans will convert to a vegan diet as a matter of choice. The health reasons are compelling, but no more compelling than other health warnings which have also been ignored (we have been bombarded by smoking warnings for decades but there has been little reduction in smoking). The environmental argument is also compelling, but what we need to realise is that we are dealing with humans here. Most humans are by nature self indulgent, greedy and selfish and cannot be trusted to do the right thing of their own accord. To expect people to give up doing something immensely enjoyable to them (as gross as eating meat sounds to vegans, the primary reason people do it is beacuse they love the 'taste') just because it's 'the right thing to do' is not realistic. I believe that the 'choice' needs to be taken away from the individual. As a so called civilised society, we put our trust in eminent thinkers to put their heads together and make rules and guidelines that define the type of behaviour accepted by members of a progressive, ethical, civilised society. These laws force people to do the right thing (even if their own set of morals would not preclude such deviant activity), or face penalties for breaking the law. The only way to really make a difference is for governments to not only promote veganism (which they don't do now anyway), but to make veganism law. I know this is also an unrealistic goal with such huge vested interests in animal exploitation, but experience shows us that the only way humans will act in a civilised way generally is to force them to do so through legislation. Experience has also shown us that there are those who will still be willing to break the law, so even this measure would not be totally effective, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction.

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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    Quote AnneCE View Post
    Exactly - people are starving, the planet is collapsing, but hey, I want a burger!
    And people who are thinking of going vegan, when they read this sort of "oh, it's too hard, it's too extreme" stuff are put off!
    This comment reminds me of a quote from the dalai lama himself who once said he tried to be a vegetarian but it was too hard (I have recently read that he is now a vegetarian but his diet seems to change alot so can't be sure). And this coming form a man who lives in the most vegetarian country on earth. I would imagine it would be harder to be a meateater than a vego in India. And he wasn't even talking about being a vegan, just a vegetarian. So if someone who supposedly is the living embodiement of spirituality and compassion finds it too hard to control his mrobid addiction to the flesh of other creatures, what chance does Joe Average slob have?

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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    aussievego, I totally agree with your post (#8). But which eminent thinkers do you have in mind, who would lead the way to ending the intensive meat industry - bearing in mind that no matter how eminent, they just LERVE eating meat!

    Today I was with a few friends having a coffee, when one of them related a story about a restaurant meal she had of viener schnitzel. I had kept a little smile on my face rather than an angry look, but I asked the woman if she was aware that the schnitzel was made with pieces of a baby calf. Oh yes, she chooses that because they don't have so much fat.

    Excuse me while I pull out my hair!
    Eve

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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    Quote eve View Post
    I asked the woman if she was aware that the schnitzel was made with pieces of a baby calf. Oh yes, she chooses that because they don't have so much fat.
    Disgusting. I bet she couldn't cut that calf's throat herself, though! I dislike that intellectual dishonesty in people almost as much as I dislike that they are choosing to eat animals after knowing something about the horrors of meat production.

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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    I entirely agree with your post, phloxy, and with eve and aussievego. I know what I'm about to say is not new, and has been posted time and time again on the board, but my bf continues to eat meat despite seeing the AgriProcessors undercover video (he cried at that). We were watching the film Fast Food Nation the other night, which has some very graphic slaughter scenes at the end, and he turned away from the screen in disgust and evident discomfort. I said calmly "Well I'm not the one that eats meat" then he gets this guilty look on his face, but we went shopping the next day and yes you've guessed it he bought meat. I just can't understand this love for meat when he's obviously not comfortable about where it comes from, and this from someone who professes to be an animal lover

    I agree with aussievego, the only way is through legislation; wartime-style ration books might be a first step in the right direction

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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    well, we don't exactly do team vegan a huge amount of favours when behaving like terrorists and looking like freaks

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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    Quote phloxy View Post
    Disgusting. I bet she couldn't cut that calf's throat herself, though! I dislike that intellectual dishonesty in people almost as much as I dislike that they are choosing to eat animals after knowing something about the horrors of meat production.
    I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone say "I don't want to know about it because if I knew I might not eat it anymore".

    I also have to laugh (whilst being extremely offended and angry at the same time) at all the culture vultures who try to impress with their knowledge of 'fine table manners', trying to be all dainty and civilised whilst crushing the shell of a lobster and sucking the juice out.

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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    There have been bans on foods in a few U.S. cities: foie gras in Chicago, for example. I'm not up to speed on how those are working out (if they are).

    It seems to me that it's social norms and values that will have to drive the law, not the other way around. It's only when enough people desire restrictive laws on behavior that they can work and not create other societal problems. I think you're right that sometimes people have to be made to do the right thing, but it also takes social acceptance for things to run smoothly and work the way the law intends.

    It's going to take grassroots activism and hard work by human individuals on behalf of animals to make society both a place where it's okay to care about farmed animals and a place where their abuse and murder will not be tolerated. Then, and probably only then, would legislation work or even be appropriate.

    That's not to say that no one should pursue legislation that would address egregious wrongs done to animals. But changing attitudes is, I think, far more powerful. Plus, who wants the state at our dinner tables and spying on our grocery shopping? The state has more than enough power to violate our rights and privacy as it is.

    I actually still believe that many people, when presented with evidence in the right set of circumstances, would choose to stop exploiting animals. We may not even need that large a percentage of the population to become vegan before we'd see widespread changes that benefit animals and end their commodification.

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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    " It is not realistic to expect people to switch to a vegan diet of vegetables, pulses, fruit and nuts "

    Vegan diet is so much more than that, they forget things like rice, pasta, tofu, tempeh and all the products that go with it (soya milk, soy & oil based spreads, soy cheese and imitation meats for those making the transition).
    If I lived on what they described a vegan diet as, i'd be bored out of my brain. I've learnt more about food, and making good, varied and interesting meals from being a vegan than I ever did being omni.
    Plus it's not really about what you're cooking with it's what you do with it that makes a good meal.

    My flatmate goes on about how good the smell is and how good my food looks when I cook, and my mates steal my muffins, cakes and brownies when i make them.

    Just because we're vegans doesn't mean we eat a boring diet, I love food more than ever!

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    Default Re: Independent article: unrealistic to expect people to go vegan for the planet

    I think one of the real problems facing the vegan movement is the almost complete lack of choice when eating out. As much as we all enjoy the health benefits of being vegan, to get more mainstream people to embrace it, there really needs to be a bigger variety available. Unfortunatley the past 50 years of advertising, government manipulation, and propaganda which is so insidious it has even spread to teaching in schools (I hate it when I think back on biology classes where we were told by teachers, who we thought we could trust, that humans are omnivores) has allowed the meat and dairy industries to take a firm hold on what the world thinks and chooses. Althouigh some foods inadvertently offer some vegan selections (falaffels, Indian food etc) it is near impossible to find any purely vegan fast food outlets in food halls. The western world has been so indoctrinated to the fast food revolution that, for most people, if they can't buy it from a fast food chain they won't buy it at all, and the advertising and constant propaganda has numbed people to the risks of a meat rich diet. Vegan food being so healthy and lacking in fat, salt and other addictive qualities actually works against it ever becoming a mainstream option. I think that veganism will unfortunately remain a fringe movement, at least in the medium term whilst we still have forests to cut down and rivers to pollute.

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