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Thread: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

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    Default Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    This is my first post, so "hi" everyone. After recently reading a lot about conditions in factory farms, I felt I had no choice but to go vegan - much to my dismay! But I've since made my peace with the idea, and I'm now feeling very positive and excited about the change.

    I don't consider myself a vegan yet, as I am still in transition. I've set a date for my official veganism, and in the meantime I've been educating myself about vegan nutrition, vegan cuisine, etc. I've already dramatically reduced my animal product intake, but like I said, I'm not 100% there yet - though I look forward to when I will be.

    I'm very excited about becoming vegan. For some people, perhaps, it might involve little more than a simple modification of diet and shopping habits, but for me - a lifetime LOVER of meat and dairy - it feels more akin to a religious conversion. And speaking of religion: I've been astounded at how many similarities there seem to be between the vegan world and the religious world(s). My research into veganism has been admittedly brief, but it already seems clear to me that like, for example, the Christian world, the vegan world seems to, unfortunately, expend so much energy in-fighting, forming schisms, debating the minutia of what "true" veganism is, declaring war on the non-vegan world, and severing ties with would-be allies such as lacto-ovo-vegetarians. Like Christianity, Veganism seems to have to spent not enough time being a shining light of hope and compassion to the world, and too much time constructing a stigma around itself that makes so many people - rather than considering veganism for themselves - think of vegans (as many do of Christians) as being judgemental, uptight, unforgiving, self-righteous, cult-like, fanatical, and/or basically unattractive. I've read articles by prominent vegans that talk about this problem, and it worries me.

    Please don't take my previous paragraph as a slam against vegans. Obviously, there are many great and positive vegans, just as there are many great and positive Christians. Unfortunately though, I think the temptation to judge and condemn and become antagonistic is a very easy one to fall into for the best of us, especially when you throw ideology, a passionate nature, and a sense of injustice into the mix. Sadly, I'm one of those people who fall into this trap easily. I'm a Christian, and the first to admit that I've been guilty of getting self-righteous or judgemental about things when I should have been compassionate and humble - and I know that I'll also be tempted to fall into similar traps as a vegan.

    When I think of people I know who happily eat meat - which includes my wife - a part of me wants to grab them by the shoulders and shake them, screaming into their ears about the horrors of factory farms. But of course, this wouldn't really help much in the long run. There's only so much that moral outrage can achieve if it's not sculpted into a more sophisticated and constructive form. History is filled with failed revolution attempts that were based on anger.

    I believe that only through redemption can most truly great changes in the world happen, and that people are most encouraged to redeem themselves by compassionate and gracious people at their side, rather than angry people trying to push them from below or condescending people judging them from above. Unfortunately, I find it much easier to be one of the latter two.

    So far, I'm on this journey towards veganism on my own, while my wife remains an omni. I hope that she will one day - sooner rather than later - become a vegan as well, but until that day, I'm not sure of the best way to manage the situation. I'm keen to hear anyone's advice on the matter. In particular, I have these questions:

    -What's the best way to make my veganism and her omni-ism into something that we can discuss freely and positively? I worry that I'll turn veganism into something that creates guilt and resentment in her (and I think it's already begun to happen), which would ultimately be detrimental to her, our marriage, and the animals themselves.

    - What about cooking? I do 80% of the cooking, and once I go vegan, my wife's diet will inevitably change substantially, against her will. Again, there's a tension: on the one hand, I want her to give up animal products, but on the other hand, I don't want her to feel like I'm making the decision for her. My default thought is that I shouldn't cook any animal products at all - but would any of you perhaps argue that this would actually be unwise in the long-run?

    - Does anyone have any good advice about how to take your anger and passion about animal cruelty and use it to inspire compassion and thoughtfulness in people, without them just seeing you as a peddler of guilt with anger issues?

  2. #2
    sponge's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    I wish you all the best in this, Stillwater. Know that you are making the right decision. I, too, was the first to go vegan in my family. I literally changed overnight. However, I did cook meat , albeit temporarily, for the rest of my family. That changed quickly as I did not want to compromise my beliefs. My husband, who did cook occasionally, has now taken a back seat in this regard. I now cook and he cleans up. This is fine by me, but I believe he will eventually be right along beside me.

    I do tend to "preach" about animal rights, cruelty, etc. but that's hard not to do when you believe in something so strongly. Do what you feel is right in your heart, and hopefully, your wife will understand your motives.

    This is one of the most important decisions of your life. I believe that the Christian community is in denial about this issue, (animal rights versus the belief of God-given dominion over animals) and I have personally come into conflict with my own mother over Christianity and veganism.

    Again, good luck and hang in there. It's worth it.

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    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Hi and welcome to the forum. Many of us here live with partners who aren't (yet) vegan.

    Best wishes with your transition into veganism. And, you never know - your wife might she how healthy and happy you are as a vegan, and she just might decide to join you

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    cedartree cedarblue's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    welcome stillwater!

    i was veggie 16yrs with an omni husband and daughter. now i've been vegan 5yrs and my daughter and husband are now veggie.

    i did no preaching just some gentle reminding and teaching occasionally. looking cheerful about what you are now eating is important and also not to judge others as we or at least i, was once in their shoes and wouldn't have appreciated that. it's all about give and take to me when one person makes a change like this - i know i cooked some omni dishes in the beginning - do what is right for you not what others may think.

    good luck with your vegan journey!

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    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    My other half was omnivorous when I went vegan and is now veggie (is a pattern emerging? ) He eats vegan food at home.

    I think people are so pleased to have someone else do the cooking for them that they will put up with a lot provided the food is nice - although he does cook as well. It's a long time ago and I don't remember too clearly but I think we explicitly agreed to have only vegan food in the house but that he would eat whatever he wanted in restaurants etc.

    He knows why I'm vegan but we don't discuss it a lot. I never really urged him to go veggie; he decided that for himself and I imagine he may decide to go vegan sometime.

    Relationships can get pretty difficult if one of you tries to impose your own values on the other, IME. Anyway I don't feel responsible for other people's decisions, only my own.

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Thanks for the encouragement, people.

    sponge: You may have already, but you should point out to your mother that the book of Genesis clearly states that humans were originally vegans. It was only once we screwed up (symbolised by Adam tasting the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil... whatever that may mean) that various unprecedented changes took place: meat eating, the wearing of animal hides, violence, gender inequality, separation from God, disharmony between humankind and nature...in short, just about all the things that seem not quite right about this world. So, although the Bible says that God gave humankind "dominion" over the animals (though I'm assured that the original Hebrew word means that humankind is to be something of a "caretaker" and "nurturer" rather than the "self-gratifying tyrant" we've become.), our killing and/or eating of them was never the part of the original plan.

    The Bible is clear that the whole point of Jesus coming was to help redeem us and help us get this world back to the way it once was - a world of justice, peace, equality, harmony with nature and with God. Although there aren't many references to veganism in the new testament, it can only be logically concluded that this new world, just like the paradise of Eden, will also be a world of veganism. Any Christian who takes their faith seriously acknowledges that we have a mandate to not to be "of this world" but instead to start bringing about this better world. So although the Christian religion doesn't impose strict food restrictions like other religions do, Christians nevertheless have no more excuse to eat meat than they have to commit theft, adultery or murder. I agree - most Christians are in denial about this!

    I think Christianity will come around eventually, though, like it once did with issues such as slavery. I worry more about the secular humanism that we all grew up in. If we take the anthropocentric 'survival of the fittest' attitude that has become one of our foundations to its logical conclusion, then nothing matters unless it benefits us or our species, and that leaves very little room for compassion for animals.


    cedarblue: So true. When I think back to the vegetarians and vegans I've known over the years, I think they all treated me with respect, and I'm thankful for that. If many of them had come across as uptight or judgemental, I think that may have given me more reasons to scorn their beliefs, which possibly would have delayed my own decision to become vegan even further.

  7. #7
    vegan
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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Personally, I don't think you should cook meat for your wife. If she wants to eat animals, let her cook them herself. You're not forcing her to become vegan just because you cook vegan meals. She can still decide to cook herself an animal if she chooses. Just don't do it for her.

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Kill her and find a better wife Luckily my husband decided to go vegan before he got the chop
    Silent but deadly :p

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Quote Stillwater View Post
    declaring war on the non-vegan world, and severing ties with would-be allies such as lacto-ovo-vegetarians.
    Hi Stillwater!

    I'm interested that you say this as before becoming vegan (about 3 months ago) I would have agreed with you, but since becoming vegan I see very little difference between the implications of an omni vs. a lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet. Regardless of whether a person is eating the actual flesh of an animal, in terms of exploitation, the meat industry and milk/egg industries and inextricable (as I'm sure you know ).

    I would agree with you to the extent that a lacto-ovo vegetarian has better intentions. IMO, however, there is just as much self-deception and ignorance among lacto-ovo vegetarians as among meat eaters - perhaps more so as by giving up meat they often believe they are no longer being cruel. I speak from personal experience as a pescetarian (for one year) who suddenly saw and read various things that made me realise how many uncomfortable thoughts I had been pushing to the back of my mind for many years.

    To me, Veganism is absolute and simple: no cruelty to any animal whatsoever as much as can be helped (to me, the "as much as can be helped" means without causing severe physical illness to myself and/or causing severe financial problems - I am well aware that many vegans would have different 'lines' they draw (there's another thread going on about this) and am willing to be challenged ). The problem with vegetarianism in general is that there are many shades of it and it's easy to call yourself a vegetarian and still eat chicken and fish! IMO there is a huge mental gulf between only giving up flesh, and recognising (as most vegans do) that we as humans have the intelligence and resourcefulness to be free enough to recognise the freedom of all living creatures to exist and own their own lives. However, as I said before I agree with you to the extent that a lacto-ovo vegetarian has better intentions and, with a little education, is closer to becoming a vegan.

    Anyway, back on topic...

    I am also married to an omni who is not likely to change, at least in the near future. As I do 95% of the cooking, he automatically eats a lot of vegan food, but as yet really doesn't "get" the moral arguments at all. He cooks his own meat and is completely supportive of my decision that I will not touch or go near his meat in any way. This may sound a bit OCD to some people but we've just ordered some red/green plastic cable ties to colour code the kitchen impliments because I've got all freaked out about contamination... . My advice, for what it's worth, would be to always be completely and totally honest with your wife. If you are honest then any resentment that builds up about your different choices will be minimal, so you'll be able to simply say neutrally "I don't want to cook that for you" rather than getting all angry and causing nasty arguments by being too confrontational and bitter (which I have a tendency to do myself ). I agree with Vegan and Hemlock.

    Anyway, allow it a few months to settle down and get used to your new way of thinking and how it relates to the other people in your life. I am personally not religious at all, but I agree with you that "conversion" to veganism was a religious-type experience for me which has been at times overwhelming.

    PS Apologies if any of this is a bit rambly...I've had a bit of a drinky

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    mogthecat - I don't think that's OCD at all! I think that is completely understandable! My best friend and her husband are both Jewish, and they have two sets of everything anyway - because meat and milk must be kept separate in their faith.
    She is veggie as well, so she likes the non-contamination thing all the more!

    Stillwater - congrats on your decision. I think you've been given great advice above.... You shouldn't have to cook meat and dairy if you don't want to. I think that's fine. It may take some adjustments, but I'm sure it would work out. I'm lucky that my fiance is also vegan (and a vegan 3 times as long as I have been!), but I can imagine the possible tension. None of my family are even veggie, but they realise now that if I am to eat out with them, or eat there, that there needs to be vegan food available. They also accept though, that if they come to my place to eat there will be no meat or dairy available! I guess it takes time, but those that love you will respect your decisions, even if they can't share them, and hopefully accommodate them. Good luck!

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Hello and welcome.
    Well firstly I commend your decision, meaning it is obviously more difficult for you to make the transition than it is for some yet going against most human beings, you have overcome any difficulty and decided to do what you feel is right. Not many folk do that.

    If you are educating yourself in vegan cookery, and if you are good at it (which I am certain you wil be soon!) then how about you suggest to your wife that you cook only vegan food for say, one week?

    See what happens with that. There are so many great vegan meals, and then she is under no pressure, because you are merely cooking new things for a change
    ?

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Thanks for all your suggestions and/or anecdotes, everyone. It's helping.

    mogthecat:
    I agree with just about everything you said about vegetarianism. I first thought that I would become a vegetarian, but after learning about the lives of dairy cows and their offspring, I realised that in many ways, even eating beef would involve less cruelty than eating milk products. That's why I decided that I had no choice but to go straight from omni-ism to veganism.

    However, I still firmly believe that we should encourage 'vegetarianism' and treat vegetarians as allies to our cause. Let me illustrate by turning to a different issue: climate change. For us to avoid climate change, we all need to drastically lower our carbon footprints, including cutting out all animal products, all plane trips, getting rid of our car(s), and greatly cutting down on all other consumption. But for most people, to make these changes all at once would involve such a radical upheaval of their life that they just wouldn't consider it.

    The most realistic hope we have is that people will get there in little steps (that's usually the only way societies change). Take for example someone who decides that she wants to help the environment, so she replaces all of her lightbulbs to energy-efficient CFLs....yet she still drives an SUV. We could give her a hard time about her SUV, pointing out her hypocrisy and the inadequacy of her meagre efforts - but this could quite possibly make her feel bitter and helpless and quell her desire to take any more environmentally-conscious actions. Or, we could praise her for taking a small but important step, and hope that our acknowledgement and encouragement will nurture a growing concern for the environment which will in time lead her to make bigger and bigger changes, such as switching the SUV for a bike.

    I think the same applies in this case. I personally enjoy change, and perhaps that's why I can eagerly make a jump from meat-eating to veganism - but most people struggle with big changes. Indeed, even in this thread alone there have been many mentions of people who were 'vegetarians' before they were vegans (including you). I think it's fair to assume that a lacto-ovo-vegetarian has a greater chance of becoming a vegan than an omni does. In that respect, then, I think we should celebrate 'vegetarianism', not as an end in itself, but as a stepping stone in the right direction - a 'halfway point' to a cruelty-free lifestyle.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Hi Stillwater, congrtulations on your choice!

    Quote Stillwater View Post
    I'm very excited about becoming vegan. For some people, perhaps, it might involve little more than a simple modification of diet and shopping habits, but for me - a lifetime LOVER of meat and dairy
    Now that animal products are becoming less and less attractive to you, you will find yourself easily stepping into not eating them. For me it's an amazing thing to look at a plate of food I've made and know that it did not cause immense animal suffering.

    Quote Stillwater View Post
    I've been astounded at how many similarities there seem to be between the vegan world and the religious world(s). My research into veganism has been admittedly brief, but it already seems clear to me that like, for example, the Christian world, the vegan world seems to, unfortunately, expend so much energy in-fighting, forming schisms, debating the minutia of what "true" veganism is, declaring war on the non-vegan world, and severing ties with would-be allies such as lacto-ovo-vegetarians. Like Christianity, Veganism seems to have to spent not enough time being a shining light of hope and compassion to the world
    One can draw many similarities between different social movements if one takes the time to look. Veganism is a definition, as laid out by the vegan society. Personally, I know that I am living in a non vegan world therefore I cannot possibly remove all animal bi products from my life, they turn up in things you would never expect them to be in, for example, this keyboard I am typing on now could contain something not vegan.

    However I can remove all the direct animal products from my life, and remove animal suffering from my life as far as it is possible.

    There is a lot of debate within the vegan world, and debate is good, it keeps the movement on track and stops it becoming stagnant, and makes sure that the means by which we move toward our goals (abolition of animal oppression and speciesism etc) match the ends.

    The choice you have made sounds like a moral and ethical one, which is great. I felt very much the same way going vegan, I felt that in order to live by my personal ethics on a great many issues I had to be vegan, unquestionably, it fits in with who I am now, and importantly who I was before - an omnivore who felt wrong about eating meat but suppressed those feelings to subscribe to social norms.

    Quote Stillwater View Post
    Please don't take my previous paragraph as a slam against vegans. Obviously, there are many great and positive vegans, just as there are many great and positive Christians. Unfortunately though, I think the temptation to judge and condemn and become antagonistic is a very easy one to fall into for the best of us, especially when you throw ideology, a passionate nature, and a sense of injustice into the mix. Sadly, I'm one of those people who fall into this trap easily. I'm a Christian, and the first to admit that I've been guilty of getting self-righteous or judgemental about things when I should have been compassionate and humble - and I know that I'll also be tempted to fall into similar traps as a vegan.
    The judgement of others is so engrained in our society, we do it all the time without realizing it, society has created social group types which we immediately recognize on first glance, however I believe recognizing this is a great step towards stopping it and realizing all the ways in which other people are similar to you rather than different.

    I respect that you are a Christain, you would very likely consider me an atheist for my beliefs (but thats a whole other topic). I firmly believe that if you feel strongly and passonately about something, if you "lead by example" rather than being as you say "self-righteous or judgemental" about it, people will recognize for themselves what you are doing and the interested ones will question you about it. It has been my experience that people have to make their own choices in life, if they feel like a "doctrine" is being pushed upon them they will generally resist. Approaching situations with love creates a far greater impact than by force.

    The funny thing is, the people who would generally oppose you preaching at them on all fronts are often the most interested in your reasoning, they just need to feel like they made the choice to ask you about it (my opinion).

    As you no doubt know, personal change takes time. Especially when it changes the way we see something that has always been the "norm".

    Like Ghandi said "You must be the change you want to see in the world".

    Quote Stillwater View Post
    -What's the best way to make my veganism and her omni-ism into something that we can discuss freely and positively? I worry that I'll turn veganism into something that creates guilt and resentment in her (and I think it's already begun to happen), which would ultimately be detrimental to her, our marriage, and the animals themselves.

    - What about cooking? I do 80% of the cooking, and once I go vegan, my wife's diet will inevitably change substantially, against her will. Again, there's a tension: on the one hand, I want her to give up animal products, but on the other hand, I don't want her to feel like I'm making the decision for her. My default thought is that I shouldn't cook any animal products at all - but would any of you perhaps argue that this would actually be unwise in the long-run?
    You guys should sit down and discuss this properly, expain your person feelings about why you are going vegan. It is really down to you whether you are comfortable cooking meat dishes for her still. Personally I couldn't do it, but thats me.

    Come up with a plan for this, see if she would be ok eating vegan at home when you do the cooking. There is no simple solution to this really it's just about doing what you feel is right by your ethics and you and your partner respecting each others decisions. She will likely get very interested in what you are doing and why, and be interested in what innovative dishes you will come up with.

    I eat a wider variety of foods now than I ever did back when I was omni.

    Quote Stillwater View Post
    - Does anyone have any good advice about how to take your anger and passion about animal cruelty and use it to inspire compassion and thoughtfulness in people, without them just seeing you as a peddler of guilt with anger issues?
    For this I can really only refer to my note above about leading by example, protests against animal cruelty can be useful to help raise awareness when they are done right.

    Use your anger of this productively, write letters, campaign for change, use whatever talents/tools you have to spread awareness.

    On a further note: You may find it useful to read "Vegan Freak - Being vegan in a non vegan world" by Bob & Jenna Torres. It is full of helpful information particularly for dealing with a large variety of social situations.

    Enjoy your path to veganism!

    Have a great one.

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    Lover of ducks Mila's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Welcome and congratulations, Stillwater! I went vegan two years ago next month and had a similar situation with my husband. I went vegan the cold tofurky way. The day I decided to do it, I sat down with him and explained the reasons why I had made the decision and asked him if he understood and answered his questions. The discussion evolved until he asked what changes would be made. I said that I would not force him to become vegan, but I wanted him to understand that I could no longer buy or prepare animal products. He understood and said that he could never, ever do the same. Five months and four days later, he went the cold-tofurky way too, albeit for health reasons at first. (His obese 30-year-old cousin dropped dead of a massive heart attack.) I can't say your wife will become vegan too, but she may well see that it can be done and that it is a healthy and conscientious choice to make.

    However, though the anger and compassion can sometimes bring out the worst in you. I've not had much luck in dealing with them in the past, but I've found that the worst thing you can do is to not seek out like-minded people. You've come to the right place! Try listening to a vegan podcast; it has helped me so much.
    I'm just a love machine and I won't work without a union contract.

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Quote Stillwater View Post
    I think the same applies in this case. I personally enjoy change, and perhaps that's why I can eagerly make a jump from meat-eating to veganism - but most people struggle with big changes. Indeed, even in this thread alone there have been many mentions of people who were 'vegetarians' before they were vegans (including you). I think it's fair to assume that a lacto-ovo-vegetarian has a greater chance of becoming a vegan than an omni does. In that respect, then, I think we should celebrate 'vegetarianism', not as an end in itself, but as a stepping stone in the right direction - a 'halfway point' to a cruelty-free lifestyle.
    I agree with you in principle I think perhaps we are just coming at this from different angles and you are more optimistic than me. The problem in my mind is that I think it wouldn't occur to many vegetarians to become vegans, possibly because they see themselves as pursuing a cruelty-free life and don't see the need to associate themselves with the perceived "extremism" and stigma of veganism. Perhaps this is where your point about the two movements not working closely together comes into play - information/goals could perhaps be shared more.

    Personally, I believe there is value in a 'halfway point' only as a stage on the journey to veganism. So, I fully agree that it may be necessary for someone who dislikes change (or who just took a while to work through and understand all the animal rights/welfare issues, like I did) to use vegetarianism as a stepping stone. However, I do have a problem with those who know all the facts and have had time to absorb them, and who still choose lacto-ovo over veganism. Maybe there is something that hasn't occurred to me, but I honestly can't think of any reason someone would continue to eat eggs and milk if they knew all the facts, other than selfishness. So, coming back to my point about my pessimism, maybe I believe people to be more selfish you do (and therefore less likely to move on from the stepping stone)

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Quote mogthecat View Post
    I agree with you in principle I think perhaps we are just coming at this from different angles and you are more optimistic than me.
    I believe the contrary: I think that I am definitely more pessimistic about this than you . If I was an optimist, then I would believe that just having a conscience and a grasp of the basic facts about meat and dairy would be enough to make most people convert to veganism. But I don't believe this. Just like I don't believe that becoming aware of impending climate change is enough to make people take the drastic measures that are needed to prevent it......it should be, but it isn't.

    Human desire is a powerful thing, especially when it concerns something as primal as food, and especially when the human in question has been raised in as spoon-fed and hedonistic culture such as ours. There are various selfish reasons for not going vegan (love of meat, love of cheese, habit, convenience, fear of being different etc.), and obviously these factors are often even strong enough to outweigh people's intellectual reasoning and their moral convictions. Like you said, we humans are selfish. That includes all of us, including you and me, and crap as it is, I think this weakness needs to be taken account in matters like this whether we like it or not.

    You argue that once people are aware of the realities of dairy, they should stop consuming those products immediately. To demand this is only right. But to expect that it will actually happen for most people is, I think, overly optimistic. If everyone always listened to their conscience and did the right thing, there would be no crime, no wars, and no social inequality. But that's simply not the world we live in; people are weak, and they change reluctantly, even when they should know better.

    If someone who is simply not ready to consider veganism sees lacto-ovo-vegetarian as an ethically sufficient goal, then let them be I say...especially if it ultimately leads them to a place where they can actually begin considering veganism (which, it seems, often happens.)

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    Karma Junkie vava's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    My husband is omni - I am vegan - somtimes we make joint veggies and he will have his main and I will have mine. When I make new stuff I say try this and a lot of the time he will say that is yummy and then the next time I am making it I will ask if he wants some too and I feel glad when he says yes.

    There is a down side to having an omni partner tho - apart from the obvious - my man scoffs all my vegan stuff as well as his own omni stuff. If I buy something like Tartex for sarnies you can be sure if I don't eat any for a while when I go back for more it is gone. It is the same with chocolate, nutritional yeast and vegan cream, to mention a few!

    My man is never short on words but the only conversation we have had where he has said to me, "I don't want to discuss this any more" - was when I asked him to justify killing an animal just to tickle his tastebuds. I think that says it all really.

    I wish you well on your journey - don't worry about your wife she will either come round in her own time by asking questions or she will shut out the idea and you will find ways of coping with your chosen life styles. Good on yer for taking the plunge for the animals!
    Last edited by vava; Apr 20th, 2008 at 06:20 PM. Reason: duff speling hehe

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Quote Stillwater View Post
    You argue that once people are aware of the realities of dairy, they should stop consuming those products immediately. To demand this is only right. But to expect that it will actually happen for most people is, I think, overly optimistic. If everyone always listened to their conscience and did the right thing, there would be no crime, no wars, and no social inequality. But that's simply not the world we live in; people are weak, and they change reluctantly, even when they should know better.
    Interesting - you've made me think about my stand on this, for which I thank you! I think you are right that my view is based on optimism, but the problem is that my optimism is continually disappointed by the realities that I see, which makes me approach it in a pessimistic manner. So, I hope for the best from people, but rarely expect to get it, but that doesn't stop me hoping for it! I guess I'm a cynical idealist, if that's possible

    Quote Stillwater View Post
    If someone who is simply not ready to consider veganism sees lacto-ovo-vegetarian as an ethically sufficient goal, then let them be I say...especially if it ultimately leads them to a place where they can actually begin considering veganism (which, it seems, often happens.)
    I'm sure your stance is the most realistic, especially when considering the (theoretical) introduction of veganism on a wide social scale. Ultimately though, in terms of how I personally approach this, the moral issues here are so black and white that using vegetarianism as anything other than a stepping stone to veganism simply isn't good enough.

    In terms of people who are "simply not ready to consider veganism" AND who therefore stop at lacto-ovo as a final destination, I find it hard to find this stance ethical. I would not empathise with a criminal who "simply doesn't feel ready to consider the rights of other humans" in the same way that I don't empathise with humans who, after knowing the facts about dairy and having had time to adjust, continue to eat dairy. I can understand that someone might be worried about stopping eating the foods they love and about making adjustments to their lifestyle and relationships as a result of becoming vegan - I had the same worries. However, I can't understand how they can let those worries take precedence over the deaths and suffering of animals. There is nothing special about us humans - our ability to have these complex and troubling thoughts is only a symptom of our luck that we have evolved more than other animals, who have just as much of a right to be on this planet as we do. (OK, that last sentence really does betray my optimism, dammit!! I also remember from your first post that you are a Christian and what I say may be contrary to your beliefs, so please be aware I have no intention to offend, I am only stating my view of the world )

    I guess my optimism comes from an assumption that omnis and lacto-ovos who resist veganism even when knowing the arguments in favour of it probably don't know all the arguments in favour, or somehow don't "get" it emotionally. I just can't understand why someone would not become vegan if they did "get" it.

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Quote mogthecat View Post
    .....Ultimately though, in terms of how I personally approach this, the moral issues here are so black and white that using vegetarianism as anything other than a stepping stone to veganism simply isn't good enough....
    On a personal level, I agree with you here and see it the same way. I appreciate your stance, because it means that you treat the ethics of your position strongly enough that you aren't prepared to water down them down - which is good. Similarly, because I believe that cheating on my wife is wrong, I could never ethically justify having 'only' a few affairs a year. Or, because I believe that stealing is wrong, I could never ethically justify stealing 'just as long as it's in $500 lots or lower'.

    However, there are various other issues which should be this black-and-white for me, but aren't. For example, I am convinced that climate change is one of the greatest dangers to ever face humanity (and the rest of the planet), and that we all share the responsibility for preventing it. Yet I still sometimes drive a car, I still buy some imported goods, and I'm even planning to fly to London for a wedding this year. It's hard to justify any of these things, really, considering the CO2 emissions that they cause - yet I still do them. Since I started learning about climate change, I have made some big changes to my life to try and reduce my footprint (and going vegan is one of them), but it has been a gradual, messy, imperfect process often involving a wrestling match between my morals and my self-interest. And so it is, I think, with most of us on many issues. You may have crystal-clear boundaries in terms of animal products, but chances are there are some other ethical areas of your life that are a little more hazy (if not, I apoligise, but I think for most people there are). So, I think that we need to show some level of tolerance for other people's 'half-baked' ethical stances, if only to make room for the forgiveness of our own.

    Furthermore, people who are resistant to your agenda enjoy nothing more than finding some small piece of hypocrisy or moral failure in your history that they can then use to discredit every good thing you've ever said. Don't like a certain politician? dig up some dirt about a prostitute he visited 20 years ago. Don't like Al Gore? Point out the carbon emissions of his plane trips. Don't like vegans? Point out the insects killed in the cultivation of vegetables. I think that if we are strong in how we encourage people to make better and better ethical choices, but without demanding perfection of them, we reduce the chance that they will use our own imperfection as an excuse to dismiss our whole position.

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    You are right, of course, but I can't help being personally idealistic . In reality, I would never censure someone who was making a genuine effort to change, even if that change wasn't perfect. I couldn't, or I wouldn't have much of a marriage left!

    I would never dream of claiming that there aren't "other ethical areas of [my] life that are a little more hazy" and I hope I didn't come accross this way. I am also trying to limit my carbon footprint but am finding this so much harder than veganism. One major problem is that I drive over 100 miles each day to work because there are no opportunities to work in my profession near my home, it isn't possible to get there by public transport (I would have to get on a train the previous evening and travel overnight!), and there are significant personal/family reasons which mean relocating would be problematic. I have condensed my working hours into 4 days but, in black and white terms, I realise that prioritising my career aspirations above environmental issues is just plain crazy! It makes me glad that veganism is so much more simple to follow, in the sense that giving up the things that I have doesn't create any dilemmas for me.

    I fully agree with your last paragraph. I think it is very hard when people believe in something very strongly, and have a lot of anger about an issue, to control that anger and use it constructively to help others change (or just to set a good example) without being too demanding. It's something I personally struggle with, as I'm sure you've gathered

    Thanks for the interesting debate and good luck with working through the original topic of your post! I think you are clearly a very level headed person with a strong understanding of how to approach these issues, and you'll have no problems with your veganism alongside your wife being omni

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Quote mogthecat View Post
    I would never dream of claiming that there aren't "other ethical areas of [my] life that are a little more hazy" and I hope I didn't come accross this way.
    No, you didn't, don't worry.


    Quote mogthecat View Post
    Thanks for the interesting debate and good luck with working through the original topic of your post! I think you are clearly a very level headed person with a strong understanding of how to approach these issues, and you'll have no problems with your veganism alongside your wife being omni
    Thanks to you to So far, it's been going pretty well with my wife. We sat down and talked honestly about it, and she told me the things that concerned her about it (eg. that she feels like she'll always be judged now for her food choices, etc.). I think expressing her honest feelings about my veganism helped her a lot, and it helped me to know how best to act in certain situations. She's become quite supportive of my veganism over the past couple of days, so I think we're on a good road there. I'm still unsure about how it will go with the whole cooking issue, though. She hates tofu, and she doesn't seem very fond of tempeh (we both tried it for the first time last night), so if I end up eating those things a lot, she'll probably have to eat something else. I don't want us to have to each cook separate meals, because doubling up like that seems like a waste of the limited time we each have in the evenings - plus we have a tiny kitchen that gets cluttered up badly enough after one meal is cooked, let alone two.

    I thought I posted a reply to Mila's post a couple of days ago, but it didn't seem to come through. I basically just said that listening to a vegan podcast is a good idea - can you recommend some good ones?

    Thanks for the encouragement and tips everyone. I'm taking it all in.

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    Lover of ducks Mila's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Quote Stillwater View Post
    I thought I posted a reply to Mila's post a couple of days ago, but it didn't seem to come through. I basically just said that listening to a vegan podcast is a good idea - can you recommend some good ones?
    My favorite is Vegetarian Food for Thought: Inspiring a Joyful, Sustainable, Compassionate Diet. Colleen from Compassionate Cooks does this podcast and in it she shares about ethics, food, animal stories, and even sometimes just reads stories to us (eg To Serve Man, The Lottery, Pig). I swiped her hummus recipe, too. It rocks.
    I'm just a love machine and I won't work without a union contract.

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Quote Hemlock View Post
    Kill her and find a better wife Luckily my husband decided to go vegan before he got the chop
    LOL!

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Quote Stillwater View Post
    Thanks to you to So far, it's been going pretty well with my wife. We sat down and talked honestly about it, and she told me the things that concerned her about it (eg. that she feels like she'll always be judged now for her food choices, etc.). I think expressing her honest feelings about my veganism helped her a lot, and it helped me to know how best to act in certain situations. She's become quite supportive of my veganism over the past couple of days, so I think we're on a good road there. I'm still unsure about how it will go with the whole cooking issue, though. She hates tofu, and she doesn't seem very fond of tempeh (we both tried it for the first time last night), so if I end up eating those things a lot, she'll probably have to eat something else. I don't want us to have to each cook separate meals, because doubling up like that seems like a waste of the limited time we each have in the evenings - plus we have a tiny kitchen that gets cluttered up badly enough after one meal is cooked, let alone two.
    Really glad it's going well with your wife. I have just the same issues as you do with my husband - he's not keen on tofu (we've never tried tempeh) and we also have a very small kitchen (though we are moving next month to a bigger place so at least that will improve). We tend to end up compromising, so for example last night I cooked some quinoa with red onion and asparagus and I had 2 vegan sausage rolls with it and he had some meat sausages. I HATE the smell so we had to have the back door open while cooking, but I can stand it and he doesn't cook it very often. That said, he hasn't done bacon yet since I've been vegan but I've asked him to cook it when I'm out because just the thought of the smell of bacon makes me feel sick.

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Quote Hemlock View Post
    Kill her and find a better wife Luckily my husband decided to go vegan before he got the chop
    Hee...
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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    I'd greatly appreciate it if people stopped having a joke about murdering my wife. You people make me sick.

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Quote Stillwater View Post
    I thought I posted a reply to Mila's post a couple of days ago, but it didn't seem to come through. I basically just said that listening to a vegan podcast is a good idea - can you recommend some good ones?
    Vegan Freak Radio is my favorite (www.veganfreakradio.com)

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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Quote Mila View Post
    My favorite is Vegetarian Food for Thought: Inspiring a Joyful, Sustainable, Compassionate Diet. Colleen from Compassionate Cooks does this podcast and in it she shares about ethics, food, animal stories, and even sometimes just reads stories to us (eg To Serve Man, The Lottery, Pig). I swiped her hummus recipe, too. It rocks.
    After your first post, I checked out a few podcasts. Some I liked, while some I found a bit annoying or boring. But I didn't know about Colleen's one until you told me about it. I'm so glad that you did, because she's in a class of her own! I must have listened to ten of hers already in the past couple of days, and they're really good.

  29. #29
    Lover of ducks Mila's Avatar
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    Default Re: Going vegan, but my wife is an omni. Advice?

    Quote Stillwater View Post
    After your first post, I checked out a few podcasts. Some I liked, while some I found a bit annoying or boring. But I didn't know about Colleen's one until you told me about it. I'm so glad that you did, because she's in a class of her own! I must have listened to ten of hers already in the past couple of days, and they're really good.
    Yay! So glad you're enjoying it, too! A friend of mine turned me onto this podcast, too. I've only found a couple of them particularly boring (the ones about particular sanctuary animals), but other people say they like those the best, so maybe it's just me. Being the giant kid I am, I like the stories.
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