Donating blood

[leedsveg]

Hi Seitan

"so are you saying yuo dont think im vegan because i wouldnt give blood?"

What I'm saying is that while you obviously consider yourself to be a vegan, I would imagine (and I cannot know for certain because he's no longer here to ask) that Donald Watson would not recognise you as such. But it's not just about giving blood. A person can have the choice of doing a million things in their life which seem compassionate and giving blood could be one of them. Notice I say "could be" because the person might live in a country where you get paid for donating blood and they're just after the money. Or they have a very rare blood group and are donating as a 'form of insurance' to ensure the availability of supply if they themselves need it in the future. I would however imagine that the vast majority of blood donors in this country do it for altruistic reasons- it just seems to be the right thing to do.

You have decided that you don't want to donate blood because an omnivore might be the recipient. Even though for all you know the recipient could be a vegan, you would prefer that person to die, it would seem, rather than they get your blood? I remember reading some years ago where a possible donation was turned down because the donor wanted the blood only to go to a white person (or it may have been to a black person). I also remember getting an email from a vegan who was going into hospital for an operation and wanted vegans only, to donate blood to her in advance. Presumably she wanted to keep the 'vegan purity' of her own blood!
I'll say it now I'M JUST NOT BOTHERED WHO GETS MY BLOOD. If anyone plays god, let it be the medical staff, in making that decision.

Can I ask you something Seitan? Have you always been 'vegan' or was there a time before you went 'vegan'? If the latter, and at that time you personally had needed a blood donation should you have received one or should your kind of 'vegan' have let you died? How do you feel about receiving blood now? Do you carry a card that says
"If I need a blood transfusion, please ensure the blood came from a vegan." or would you accept blood from anybody? I'd be interested to know.

Turning now to my lack of perfection, I question my veganism all the time, don't you? I thought that was part of veganism. There's always something new to learn on an ethical journey.

[seitan]

Can I ask you something Seitan? Have you always been 'vegan' or was there a time before you went 'vegan'? If the latter, and at that time you personally had needed a blood donation should you have received one or should your kind of 'vegan' have let you died? How do you feel about receiving blood now? Do you carry a card that says
"If I need a blood transfusion, please ensure the blood came from a vegan." or would you accept blood from anybody? I'd be interested to know.

you can always ask me anything, ive nothing to hide
i turned vegetarian when i was 16, and vegan when i was 17. im now close to 42.
i cant really answer that question, as i was way too young back then to have thought about those possibilities. but if youre asking me now, id totally understand (which should be pretty obvious) if a vegan did not want to give blood, knowing that meat eaters would benefit, even if that meant i would die.

you (and others) may find this hard to believe, but im really not scared of dieing, and im not just saying that. if my time comes, it somes, thats it.
youve raised a good point tho, i should carry a card saying i dont want anybodys blood

if i cared enough about humans, i should try and start some vegan blood donating thing, tho im really not sure it would work.

Turning now to my lack of perfection, I question my veganism all the time, don't you? I thought that was part of veganism. There's always something new to learn on an ethical journey.

not sure i feel that i question it, but it has become much stronger and "contraversial" over the years, which is down to lifes experiences and seeign how crap humans really are.

[Manzana]

I can perfectly see why you would not want to donate blood when you look at the bigger picture. Vegan or not, humans have a huge impact on the planet and it is mostly negative to all other species. For every human that lives individuals from other species will die.

I think is as much of a respectable position as wanting to donate blood.

I think it is totally irrelevant what Donald Watson would think of Seitan. Seitan has a perfectly reasoned opinion and he seems to adhere to the "avoiding animal product" rule of thumb so in my opinion he seems pretty vegan! why are we questioning his veganism?

[leedsveg]

Hi Manzana

From what I've read, Seitan is very capable of answering for himself although what you say in his support is interesting. Most omnis seem to think that vegans 'have a bee in their bonnet.' What omnis would make of the following Seitan comments, I shudder to think. (Maybe neither you nor Seitan is bothered about omni opinions but I suspect that you're not going to get many omni converts to your branch of 'veganism'.)

"I wouldn't give blood unless I knew they were vegan."
"I think all humans are messed up."
"It's human nature to be selfish."
"I'm the misanthrope don't forget."

We seem to be poles apart with fundamental differences of opinion but I do wish you well nontheless.

[seitan]

Hi Manzana

From what I've read, Seitan is very capable of answering for himself although what you say in his support is interesting. Most omnis seem to think that vegans 'have a bee in their bonnet.' What omnis would make of the following Seitan comments, I shudder to think. (Maybe neither you nor Seitan is bothered about omni opinions but I suspect that you're not going to get many omni converts to your branch of 'veganism'.)

"I wouldn't give blood unless I knew they were vegan."
"I think all humans are messed up."
"It's human nature to be selfish."
"I'm the misanthrope don't forget."

We seem to be poles apart with fundamental differences of opinion but I do wish you well nontheless.

i think manzana was just agreeing with me to an extent, is that not allowed????

i have "converted" many people to veganism, mainly through my music.
do you disagree with all four comments i made that you quoted?

the average canivore would be no more "put-off" reading any of my comments to just hearing how rats shouldnt be killed.
what do you propose we do? suggest happy meat so as not to offend the carnivores?
i will not compromise. im an abolitionist.

[leedsveg]

Hi Seitan
I'm sorry but I'd not spotted that you'd responded to a previous posting so my apologies to you and Manzana.
In answer to your question regarding the 4 comments of yours that I'd quoted, I definitely disagree with comments 1 + 2, comment 3 is such a generalisation that I cannot agree with it and as for comment 4, you probably know yourself better than I do, so why should I disagree.
By the way, you say "I have 'converted' many people to veganism, mainly through my music." Did you mean 'through songs' or was it literally 'through music'? If the latter, how did you manage that?
Turning now to your last paragraph, I'll assume your talking about (human) omnivores since I wouldn't expect a human carnivore to have a very long life expectancy or an animal carnivore to be able to read! I think we'll have to disagree on this one. Most people who do go vegan, don't do so overnight, but more gradually, often with vegetarianism as a 'halfway house'. You might think this is a compromise but it's what you did! (to your brand of 'veganism' anyway.)

Despite your views, I don't have any bad feelings towards you. If you ever need any blood, you can have a pint of mine, the only problem being that you wouldn't know which was from me and which was from an omnivore. Go on, love yourself and take a chance.....!

[Est]

I'm a blood donor and have given blood as an omni and a vegan. I don't have any problem with my blood going wherever it is most needed.

who else has put their name on the organ donor register?

I've carried the card (take any bits!) since I was maybe 13 or 14 and have been on the register for... idk... a long time now anyway. It's funny how I can be squeamish about some things, but feel fine with the thought of organ donation. Not icky at all!

[Manzana]

Most omnis seem to think that vegans 'have a bee in their bonnet.' What omnis would make of the following Seitan comments, I shudder to think. (Maybe neither you nor Seitan is bothered about omni opinions but I suspect that you're not going to get many omni converts to your branch of 'veganism'.)

I am not bothered about what omnis (or vegans) think about my opinions. As long as they are reasoned it is totally irrelevant what others think.

I am not part of a "special" branch of veganism. I avoid animal products as far as it is possible. I think that is the only vegan branch and I think Seitan also belongs to it as you do leedsveg.

I can't give blood due to the fact that I am too small (under 50Kg or 110lbs, 8st) and they will not allow me to donate it so it is actually not even an ethical problem that I can consider.

I would, however, very much prefer only to receive blood from a vegan if it came to that (or none but hopefully my vegan partner could help on that one).

I think it is clear that Seitan and maybe even me (although I have not totally made my mind up on this matter yet) would choose not to donate blood out of compassion for life and not lack of compassion. The term "life" does not just enclose fellow human beings, but more like fellow beings (human or not).

If you cannot see the reasoning and the compassion behind this, you are being a bit short sighted.

[ellaminnowpea]

I've been trying to give blood for the past few years (since highschool) and never have been able to due to my iron levels. But I'm working on supplementing small amounts of iron to get my levels back up. Assuming I pass the iron test, what else do they test for prior to donation (in the US)?

I'm not in any way opposed to donating blood to anyone that needs it. I dont think we should value one life over another (vegan over omni) as human life should not be valued over animal.

[leedsveg]

Hi Manzana
If we're talking about utilitarianism (I'll give a crude definition of 'the greatest benefit for the greatest number'), then I can understand the reasoning but I'm having a bit of difficuly over 'the compassion behind this'.
I'll give an example.

I have the opportunity to save 3 lives. The first 2 lives are an adult's and a young child's (they both need a blood donation to survive), the 3rd life is a cat's (it's caught in a trap and needs releasing to survive). All I know about them is it's an adult, a child and a cat that need my help to survive. That's all I need to know;I give blood, release the cat.

From what you say, you would choose not to give blood because the adult and the child might not be vegans and so letting them live could result in the deaths of (more than 2) animals (that they would ulimately consume). Similarly for the cat, you would choose not to release it because release could mean the deaths of other creatures that the cat (because of its carnivorous nature) would ultimately kill. [I know you are not allowed to give blood but I'm pretending you can for the sake of debate.]

Supposing you don't give blood, the adult dies and you find out afterwards that (by your omission) you've just killed Seitan. This means that all the people Seitan could have converted to 'veganism' (and all the people they converted, and all the people they converted...ad infinitum) remain unconverted. And so all these animals die because you killed Seitan.

OK, so you don't save the child and you find out afterwards that the child was vegan. Would you not feel a bit...regretful? Hang on! They made a mistake, the child was omnivorous! Thank heavens you would say. I killed a child but saved all those animal lives!

Turning to the cat, it's difficult to imagine a carnivore 'choosing to go vegan' but if we kill the cat purely because of its carnivorous nature, surely this should mean that by your kind of compassionate veganism, you should go out with a gun and kill as many cats as possible.

Going back to giving blood, you might say that as vegans account for less than 1% of the UK population, there's not much chance of a vegan missing out by your and Seitan's lack of donation. So what would be your threshold of vegans in the population be before your compassion for the recipient kicks in and a blood donation is made- 5%, 25%,75%,99%? And how do you work it out? With a formula on a calculator?

Best wishes.

[seitan]

Hi Manzana
If we're talking about utilitarianism (I'll give a crude definition of 'the greatest benefit for the greatest number'), then I can understand the reasoning but I'm having a bit of difficuly over 'the compassion behind this'.
I'll give an example.

I have the opportunity to save 3 lives. The first 2 lives are an adult's and a young child's (they both need a blood donation to survive), the 3rd life is a cat's (it's caught in a trap and needs releasing to survive). All I know about them is it's an adult, a child and a cat that need my help to survive. That's all I need to know;I give blood, release the cat.

From what you say, you would choose not to give blood because the adult and the child might not be vegans and so letting them live could result in the deaths of (more than 2) animals (that they would ulimately consume). Similarly for the cat, you would choose not to release it because release could mean the deaths of other creatures that the cat (because of its carnivorous nature) would ultimately kill. [I know you are not allowed to give blood but I'm pretending you can for the sake of debate.]

Supposing you don't give blood, the adult dies and you find out afterwards that (by your omission) you've just killed Seitan. This means that all the people Seitan could have converted to 'veganism' (and all the people they converted, and all the people they converted...ad infinitum) remain unconverted. And so all these animals die because you killed Seitan.

OK, so you don't save the child and you find out afterwards that the child was vegan. Would you not feel a bit...regretful? Hang on! They made a mistake, the child was omnivorous! Thank heavens you would say. I killed a child but saved all those animal lives!

Turning to the cat, it's difficult to imagine a carnivore 'choosing to go vegan' but if we kill the cat purely because of its carnivorous nature, surely this should mean that by your kind of compassionate veganism, you should go out with a gun and kill as many cats as possible.

Going back to giving blood, you might say that as vegans account for less than 1% of the UK population, there's not much chance of a vegan missing out by your and Seitan's lack of donation. So what would be your threshold of vegans in the population be before your compassion for the recipient kicks in and a blood donation is made- 5%, 25%,75%,99%? And how do you work it out? With a formula on a calculator?

Best wishes.

sorry, but i think your last post was just a lot of drivel.
it was very hypothetical.

oh, and you apologised for not seeing one of my posts.
ALL my posts have to be approved by a moderator before they are posted. when they do get posted, they get put where they would initially have gone, so, you didnt miss my post, it was just not there

[seitan]

Hi Seitan
I'm sorry but I'd not spotted that you'd responded to a previous posting so my apologies to you and Manzana.
In answer to your question regarding the 4 comments of yours that I'd quoted, I definitely disagree with comments 1 + 2, comment 3 is such a generalisation that I cannot agree with it and as for comment 4, you probably know yourself better than I do, so why should I disagree.
By the way, you say "I have 'converted' many people to veganism, mainly through my music." Did you mean 'through songs' or was it literally 'through music'? If the latter, how did you manage that?
Turning now to your last paragraph, I'll assume your talking about (human) omnivores since I wouldn't expect a human carnivore to have a very long life expectancy or an animal carnivore to be able to read! I think we'll have to disagree on this one. Most people who do go vegan, don't do so overnight, but more gradually, often with vegetarianism as a 'halfway house'. You might think this is a compromise but it's what you did! (to your brand of 'veganism' anyway.)

Despite your views, I don't have any bad feelings towards you. If you ever need any blood, you can have a pint of mine, the only problem being that you wouldn't know which was from me and which was from an omnivore. Go on, love yourself and take a chance.....!

i dont have any bad feelings to anybody on here, we're all vegan, aiming for the same goals, and, its just the internet

as for the offer of blood, ill just leave this place behind, thanks tho

[Manzana]

Hi Leedsveg,

I don't really want to go back in circles. As I said, I have not made my mind up about the good or the not so good of giving blood and I probably never will because I am not an apt subject for blood donation.

I just wanted to clarify that not donating blood is not equivalent to killing people.

I dont really think that the metaphor about not releasing the cat is appropriate on the basis that the cat is probably in a human trap to start with and it needs to kill in order to survive.

The humans that might be saved with my blood might also be primate experimenters or whale hunters and the child might be the equivalent of baby hitler.

I personally dont think that the veganism or omnivorism has very much to do with my decision to give or not give blood (i have never drawn a line between vegans and non vegans the same way as I try not to draw a line between humans and non humans)

[fiamma]

I would have no qualms about giving my blood to a meat eater.

Would anyone here have problems receiving a blood transfusion knowing in all probability that it came from a meat eater?

[leedsveg]

Hi Manzana

Interesting that 'my blood donation' saved Seitan, 'yours' saved a primate experimenter, a whale hunter and a baby Hitler. Also that the cat 'I released'/saved was according to you 'probably in a human trap'. I just said it was 'in a trap';for all I know it might have been a branch that fell off and trapped the cat's leg. Is it my imagination or can you just not resist having a go at humankind?

Seitan

I'm sorry you found my posting 'just a lot of drivel' and hypothetical. Not sure what you've got against hypothetical. Do you recognise 'if I crashed my bike, even got hit by a car that was my decision to go riding' ? Yes it's you being hypothetical in your August 4 2008 posting.

As for drivel, maybe somebody else out there read it and got something out of it, even if they disagreed with what I was saying. I hope so because I spent a fair amount of time composing it!

[Manzana]

Hi Manzana

Is it my imagination or can you just not resist having a go at humankind?

It is your imagination

[leedsveg]

Hi Manzana

My imagination? No, sorry, I've read and reread your postings in this thread, including where you nobly defend the opinions of Seitan and I have to respectfully disagree with you. Perhaps we can leave it to other people to make their mind up. 'Re ipse loquitur' as the Romans would say (and I was bottom of the class in Latin-funny how some of it comes back years later!)

As has been pointed out, arguments are going round in circles, so I say farewell with the following words from this thread:-

Gorilla
"Seitan, you list in your interests on your profile page 'the end of the human race'. What if, unlikely as it may be, the world were to go vegan and become environmentally sound? Would you still want the human race to die out?"

Seitan
"Yes."

[Manzana]

Hi Manzana

Is it my imagination or can you just not resist having a go at humankind?

I guess this was a trick question and i got the answer wrong then?

[seitan]

I would have no qualms about giving my blood to a meat eater.

Would anyone here have problems receiving a blood transfusion knowing in all probability that it came from a meat eater?

yes i would, but, i wouldnt wnat anybodys blood.
i think youre missing the point tho (well, my point). i wouldnt want to give blood to someone knwoing that the blood i gave them was going to give them the freedom to continue being resposible for animals in slaughterhouses.

does anybody actually understand why i feel thsi way? im not expecting people to agree, just to understand.

[seitan]

Hi Manzana



As has been pointed out, arguments are going round in circles, so I say farewell with the following words from this thread:-

Gorilla
"Seitan, you list in your interests on your profile page 'the end of the human race'. What if, unlikely as it may be, the world were to go vegan and become environmentally sound? Would you still want the human race to die out?"

Seitan
"Yes."

whats your point?
im really not at all bothered you trying to have a dig at me, its only the internet, but id like to know what this is supposed to imply.

[Korn]

whats your point?

His point could be the same point I made some pages ago:

Sorry, Seitan - I don't get it. The question was not about humans existence in this earth as it is today, but about if "the world were to go vegan and become environmentally sound?", and if you still wanted the human race to die out.

If the problem is that we're not vegans, the answer would be that people would go vegan.
If the problem is that the world isn't environmentally sound, the answer would be to make it environmentally sound.
If the problem is that there are too many humans, the answer would be to reduce the world population, but you don't only suggest that the human race should 'die out', but even that your opinion has to do with veganism. Maybe you could explain it for me in a way I understand - I truly don't get it...

This thread has by mistake jumped back to the Health forum after a merge with another thread. I agree that it's going in circles, and will close it soon...

Again - here's the PM I got a while ago (mentioned in another post):

Hiya there, i was wondering if the donating blood thread could be moved into the private section because i think anyone thinking of becoming vegan may think some of the vegan views on there are to extreme. I think veganism is about compassion for all living beings including humans and i would hate to think the public thought the majority of vegans were anti human. Thank you.
PS hope you ok

Most omnis seem to think that vegans 'have a bee in their bonnet.' What omnis would make of the following Seitan comments, I shudder to think. (Maybe neither you nor Seitan is bothered about omni opinions but I suspect that you're not going to get many omni converts to your branch of 'veganism'.)

"I wouldn't give blood unless I knew they were vegan."
"I think all humans are messed up."
"It's human nature to be selfish."
"I'm the misanthrope don't forget."

We seem to be poles apart with fundamental differences of opinion but I do wish you well nontheless.

I'm all with you, leedsveg.

To the occasional visitor who has seen Seitans repeated attacks on the human race: these views are his own; maybe the discussion about his somehow dominates the discussion in this thread, but his viewpoints are not in any part of a vegan view on mankind.

To Seitan: you are already on moderated/delayed posts due to your many 'people-hating'/'humans suck'-posts. If you continue, we'll deactivate yiour account. Please have a look at the guidelines/FAQ.

[gogs67]

To Seitan: you are already on moderated/delayed posts due to your many 'people-hating'/'humans suck'-posts. If you continue, we'll deactivate yiour account. Please have a look at the guidelines/FAQ.

I think that is rather unfair. However much i disagree with Seitans view point surely he has the right to air it? It's not offensive, just extreme and, in this thread, it's not him that's been instigating the majority of the posts that people may disagree with, he's just been asked to continually defend his position as is, surely, his right when challanged?

[Prawnil]

Misanthropy is speciesism.

Every Human has the capacity for absolute compassion. Maybe they will exercise it in the future. To refuse to acknowledge that about other people, you limit your own decency and that will only lead to unpleasantness.

I feel wobbly before giving blood far more than after, and have never had a problem in the iron test. No change since I became vegan, it's all fine.
That was the question... wasn't it?

[fiamma]

yes i would, but, i wouldnt wnat anybodys blood.
i think youre missing the point tho (well, my point). i wouldnt want to give blood to someone knwoing that the blood i gave them was going to give them the freedom to continue being resposible for animals in slaughterhouses.

does anybody actually understand why i feel thsi way? im not expecting people to agree, just to understand.

I don't think I'm missing the point at all. If you found yourself in a situation where you required a blood transfusion, it would mean you were pretty ill. Would you really insist on refusing that blood? In other words, would you rather die than receive blood from someone who probably eats meat? In a situation like that I doubt any of us would have a choice, we probably wouldn't be in the position to refuse (i.e. unconscious or something similar).

So it seems like double standards to me to receive blood but not to give it.

And no, I don't understand while you feel the way you do. I don't understand any vegan who will only have anything to do with the tiny minority in the world that is the vegan population (only have vegan friends, only give blood to vegans etc.) as I feel it shows a refusal to accept any facet of a person's character than their vegan/non-vegan status. And there is so much more to life, and to people, than that.

[Korn]

I think that is rather unfair.

I'm not only referring to his post in this thread. If you want a discussion about this, please start a new thread in the Conflicts forum...

[seitan]

if ANYBODY wants to discuss this further, then you can email me

unborn@btopenworld.com

[Lauralam]

Seeing the word blood so many times in this thread is making me feel woozy.... :thunk!:

[leedsveg]

Originally posted by Lauralam:
Seeing the word blood so many times in this thread is making me feel woozy.... :thunk!:

Hi Lauralam

After giving my first pint, I got up from the couch and walked into a wall! I now take my time, don't look down at the filling bag but think of other things such as what to have for lunch.

[Pearl]

I cant donate blood as I have had blood transfusions, tattooes etc., but I would definitely do it if I could.

I am on the organ donor register to donate all my bits and bobs when I croak. It feels the right thing to do.

By the way - as I typed this I wondered - if you have had a blood transfusion can you NEVER give blood again? or does your blood have to be tested? or something. Anyone know?

[Risker]

You should not give blood if:

9 You have received blood or think you may have received blood during the course of any medical treatment or procedure anywhere in the world since 1st January 1980.

https://secure.blood.co.uk/c11_cant.asp

[Pearl]

Ok. Wont be giving blood then.

[emzy1985]

You may not give blood:

You're a man who's had sex with another man, even safe sex using a condom. (So what about hetrosexuals then????? )

You've had a tattoo, semi-permanent make up or any cosmetic treatments that involves skin piercing in the last 6 months. (I never go longer than 6months without a tattoo so I'll never give blood!)

[bradders]

I think that everyone ho can give blood should and I will take blood if I nee it, no matter whether the person was an omni or not. That's simple self and life preservation. I am an organ donor and whilst I have a few reservations about national databases I am in favour of presumed consent. Due to my sexuality and a discriminatory law I am not allowed to give blood at present but would if I could and as I person with a rare type my blood plasma would be extremely important.

[emzy1985]

if I could and as I person with a are type my blood plasma would be extremely important.

Obviously sexual discrimination is more important than people's lives!

[bradders]

Obviously sexual discrimination is more important than people's lives!

sadly the blood transfusion service seems to think so

[dreama]

Last year I tried to donate my blood. First they said I couldn't because of my deafblindness. After that I made the mistake of telling them I used to take drugs for epilepsy. Even though it's only petit mal. So I can't donate blood either. Even though neither Deafblindness or epilepsy affects the blood type and having a petit mal seizure is really no big deal.

[emzy1985]

sadly the blood transfusion service seems to think so

What I don't get is if I went in there (other than the fact I have a bisexual man thing who has taken some in his time) and said I have anal sex 12 times a week - I COULD STILL GIVE BLOOD!!!!!!

[bradders]

What I don't get is if I went in there (other than the fact I have a bisexual man thing who has taken some in his time) and said I have anal sex 12 times a week - I COULD STILL GIVE BLOOD!!!!!!

I know, the rule makes absolutely no sense. Half the time I think that they just don't want some bender's blood in them.

[emzy1985]

Neither would I man! It might make me gay or something!!

[bradders]

I wish. I can accept all blood, but my blood is only useful to other AB+ people. So, it's not useful since other AB+ people can accept it all too.

usually they cry out for that for plasma as whilst AB+ can accept any blood and O- can accept only O- blood people who are type AB+ can only have AB+ plasma and everyone can have it too

back in Ireland they were really glad of my Dad's blood for that reason, until the rule came in about British people donating blood and people who had spent a certain amount of time in Britain etc.

[emzy1985]

rule came in about British people donating blood and people who had spent a certain amount of time in Britain etc.

Wouldn't want that scummy British blood either. Goodness knows where these people have been!

[bradders]

Neither would I man! It might make me gay or something!!

ha ha, I might give someone 'the gay'

[bradders]

Wouldn't want that scummy British blood either. Goodness knows where these people have been!

might catch the madness or something

[squigaletta]

Though the 'gay thing' does seem unfair I can understand it, I can't remember the exact numbers but I looked into it and the incidence of HIV in the gay population is much higher, I will have a look and see if I can find the numbers.
I wish I could give blood atm but can't because of the time I spent out of the country, before I started travelling I gave blood as often as possible.

[bradders]

it's not strictly relevant as unlike CJDfor which they cannot screen they do screen EVERY sample for hep, syphilis, HIV and certain other blood born infections. Whilst there is a window period in which a person may have been infected but it will not show in the blood this does mean in the viral cases that the desease is not active in the blood and therefore poses no risk. If they were to be sure in implementing this they would as Emzy said allow a period whereby if men hadn't had sex they would be able to give bood and that women who have sex with men who are actively having sex with other men would not be able to. They would also introduce primary and secondary testing to ensure accurcay of the results and to allow for any possible window period effects. Further they would use batch and unit seperation and continued sample testing until use to further eliminate the risks. Granted we deffinately do not want a repeat of what happened in Ireland where all the blood and blood products were contaminated and pretty much every hemophiliac in Ireland who needed blood products became HIV+. We have to remember though that at the moment there is not enough blood to go around but the current rules do not actually make sense when investigated.

[bradders]

the male homosexual incidence (they include in this category any man who at any time in his life has had anal or oral sex with another man & women who have had sex with men who have had sex with men) of infections accounts for 63% of all infections likely to occur in this country and on the same terms the incidence of new syphilis infections has increased by 117% 2002 - 2006.
Given that there is c. 10% of the population that is gay and out and about the same again that is gay and not open as well as a significant bisexual population and a high level of men who have experimented at one time or another and we are dealing with the two categories most susceptible to infection being classed as one as though they are a small proportion of the population this figure is not as bad as it at first appears.
There are other questions that would more accurately reveal risk such as if the man is a 'top' and is circumcised - reduced risk by c.50%, drinks green tea every day which also shows significant reductions in infection, use of condoms... e.g. a man who is a top, is circumcised, uses a condom, has no relevant piercings and drinks green tea every day is pretty much as safe as you can get from infection but would not be able to give blood. Meanwhile women who have multiple partners and don't use condoms run a huge infection risk. The rule is completely discriminatory or at least demonstrates a complete lack of understanding by those in their ivory towers who make the rule.

[BlackCats]

Meanwhile women who have multiple partners and don't use condoms run a huge infection risk. The rule is completely discriminatory or at least demonstrates a complete lack of understanding by those in their ivory towers who make the rule.

I agree. The rules about donating blood make no sense to me.
(I think I am repeating myself, I have probably already said that in this thread.)

I am going to donate blood again when I am able to. I have had piercings and acupuncture over the summer so I think I have to wait 6 months until I can donate again.:smile:

[emzy1985]

The rule is completely discriminatory or at least demonstrates a complete lack of understanding by those in their ivory towers who make the rule.

It's true and still I can have unprotected anal sex 1000 times a week.... infact I could be an anal porn star and yet still be able to give blood.

Unfortunately I think a higher incidence of HIV in gay and bisexual men can be partly attributed to a poor sex education system in the UK. For example I knew nothing of safe sex for lesbians until my 20s, by which time I had slept with around 20 people. As for my young gay male friends..... they weren't concerned when sleeping with people of their own age without condoms . Noone ever said that condoms should be used for anal sex either. Thankfully none of them contracted HIV that I know of.

Anyway this is way off topic......but a relevant point is that gay men should be able to give blood. FUCKS ME OFF!!!!

[bradders]

we should but sadly we can't make that contribution

[snivelingchild]

I can have unprotected anal sex 1000 times a week

I kinda don't think you could.....without majorly injuring yourself.