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Thread: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

  1. #1
    Klytemnest
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    Default Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    In an interview Charlie Rose asked Richard Dawkins (author of The God Delusion) "What is the best thing you can say about religion?"

    So, it got me thinking. What is the most persuasive argument for the use of animal products? Don't get mad at me, OK? I am not backsliding. I just think it is necessary for us to understand the reasoning of the other side. Perhaps then we could actually address their argument and, if reason be on our side, defeat it.

    Anyway, what is the best argument you have heard for adopting an omnivorous diet/lifestyle? Which of these arguments is the most difficult for you to defeat?

    Thanks,

    Rami

  2. #2
    seitan
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    i really think the only real answer is self.

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Anyway, what is the best argument you have heard for adopting an omnivorous diet/lifestyle?
    Frankly, I can't think of one single,valid or near-valid argument for living an omnivorous lifestyle at all, so it's hard to select a 'best' argument...

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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    I would say "cultural and social convenience"

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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    If society sees animals as products and commodities then it is logical to use and profit from them. There is no reason to be vegan or vegetarian from this POV other than health or maybe environmental reasons.

    Vegans mostly don't see animals as products or commodities.
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Quote Ruby Rose View Post
    I would say "cultural and social convenience"
    Sure... habits, "tradition" etc... but that's not arguments. If my family had a long tradition of wearing green underwear, I wouldn't see that as an argument for wearing green underwear.... 'Tradition' can explain why some people do what they do, but is - the way I see it - never a valid reason to keep ding something you don't want to do, or to do something that harms other living beings. Drunk driving doesn't make sense even if someone has been raised in a family where drunk driving was common. One may be less critical about driving while drunk, but 'argument' for doing it - no...

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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    The argument implied would be that in order to be fully accepted in a given culture or community, with all the psycho-social benefits that inclusion in a community brings, it would be necessary to adhere to the customs of that community. If you want to be a full part of your green-underwear-wearing family, you have to wear green underwear. It is not the same thing as your drink-driving example.

    Of course, as vegans, our counterargument would be that meat-eating is not a predicate of the communities to which we belong.

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    The Null Void
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Danger. Let me explain, please.

    Most of the dangers of the traditional diet have been explored. We mitigate these risks through things like fortification and enrichment, rather than by proper variety of diet.

    Consider your average person. They don't want to think hard about meal planning. They want work-free meals that taste good. Imagine if all the people like that started eating a vegan diet? I suspect that the market would quickly adapt to provide enriched vegan "junk food," but there would be some problems in the meantime.

    Please note that I don't feel this is an excuse. I believe that people should take responsibility for themselves, and that the lives of animals, plants and people are not less valuable than one's convenience. I'm just saying that I think this would be the problem with mass adoption of a vegan diet. Of course, since it's going to happen slowly anyway, it's not as much of a concern.

    I'm not sure I've properly tied this to the original post, so here goes. If a person thinks that a vegan diet is unhealthy as they would implement it, you are essentially asking them to harm themselves by adopting it. If a person is not willing to take responsibility for their nutrition, it is currently unfeasible to ask them to become vegan. You need to first get them to take control of themselves.

  9. #9
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    I think the best argument for an omnivorous lifestyle is that eating very small amounts of less fatty meats and fish as well as eating a diet rich in fruit and vegetables with adequate essential fatty acids can easily give you all the necessary nutrition your body needs without having to take any supplements such as B12. If I was an omni defending my lifestyle that is what I would say. I do think that a vegan diet is very healthy but if I ate small amounts of animal products purely for taste reasons I wouldn't see the harm in continuing it or the point in giving it up.

    (I feel kind of guilty saying this, of course I would never admit this to any of my omni friends. Quickly someone disagree with me and prove me wrong!)

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    I think what you mention is something many non-vegans would think actually... I even agree that the argument would be somewhat valid (or at least 'semi-valid') if...

    1) ...there was evidence that we wouldn't get the B12 we needed living on a vegan in a world without all these environmental-unfriendly B12 killers. Since B12 have been found in water, leaves, bark, soil and many plants, and there whole thing about analogues and reliable/non-reliable ways to measure B12 still is a big mystery, there's no proof anywhere that there wouldn't be enough B12 to everybody in a 'natural' world. The facts we already have access to points in the other direction.

    2) I there was anything that suggested that small amounts of animal products would provide enough B12 in this B12 antagonistic world. Meat eaters are also exposed to all those B12 killers, so 'small' amounts probably wouldn't be enough for them anyway - plus many animal products are low in bioavailable B12 in the amounts people consume these animal products. They also contain B12 analogues...
    3) The argument would make more sense if there was at least one person on this planet that could convince me that humans are well equipped to kill animals without tools, or that we are supposed to make tools that can kill just because we can make tools... or that making weapons (or factory farms) is a better solution than producing B12 directly, by fermenting plants.
    4) Finally, if we would live in a world with enough wild animals to provide the B12 humans need - with the current, high number of humans on the planet. Since there are lots of humans and few, wild animals around, relying on animals for B12 requires factory farming/mass 'production' of animal products, which even many non-vegans are against.

    The bottom line is that even if one could prove that there wouldn't be enough B12 in plants without these and other B12 enemies, and someone could convince me that we always should be 100% natural (and not 'cultural'... read: not wearing man made clothes, live in houses, eat prepared food etc, since this stuff doesn't grow on trees), and even if some bright mind could convince me that it's better to produce tools for killing animals than to produce plant based B12, the only remaining argument ('it's better/more "natural" to eat animals than fermentation based B12') is immediately made invalid by the fact that we don't live in a world with enough wild, 'natural' animals to justify the 'naturalness' of an animal based diet.... in other words, that argument had to be weighed against the need for chicken factories, 'over-fishing' etc...

    There isn't even enough fish in the sea to provide British school children with the Omega-3 they apparently need. Even people who defend use of fish oil agree that in a generation or two, we'll have to look elsewhere for our Omega-3 needs - at least within a generation or two!

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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Quote Klytemnest View Post
    So, it got me thinking. What is the most persuasive argument for the use of animal products?
    I think this is a great idea for a thread.

    Personally, I can't think of a good argument at the moment, but I do think it's a good thing to look at how other's think and to try to understand their views in a constructive way, even if we don't agree with them. I once read a course on philosophy and was surprised at just how much of a skill it is to be able to argue for a view that you don't support, let alone are very much against.

    So far the responses here have been very interesting.
    "Born on the same planet, Covered by the same skies..."

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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Quote null_void View Post
    Danger. Let me explain, please.

    Most of the dangers of the traditional diet have been explored. We mitigate these risks through things like fortification and enrichment, rather than by proper variety of diet.

    Consider your average person. They don't want to think hard about meal planning.
    I wouldn't call that an argument (maybe you don't either), and feel that 'fear' or 'lack of knowledge would describe the situation better than 'danger'. And - let's not forget that even a sentence like 'They don't want to think hard about meal planning' can be read as if vegans need to be more concerned about meal planning, than non-vegans, which isn't the case at all - once their habits have been changed!

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    The Null Void
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Quote Korn View Post
    I wouldn't call that an argument (maybe you don't either), and feel that 'fear' or 'lack of knowledge would describe the situation better than 'danger'. And - let's not forget that even a sentence like 'They don't want to think hard about meal planning' can be read as if vegans need to be more concerned about meal planning, than non-vegans, which isn't the case at all - once their habits have been changed!
    Okay, I can see "lack of knowledge" being a better descriptor.

    As for the second part, I think maybe we disagree (I'd be happy to change my mind on the subject... maybe I need to look into it a bit more). I'd say that most people (at least, in my area), do no meal planning at all. I think that they'd be much healthier if they did, but because of the points listed in my previous post, they're not required to in order to sustain themselves. I'm not sure the same is true of vegans, though it is certainly getting that way as we identify nutrients that your average vegan (supposedly) doesn't get enough of, and we dump it into soymilk or some other product.

    (I'm not suggesting fortification is a bad thing, by the way... I don't really know enough about nutritional science to say one way or the other).

    Anyway, whatever you feel about the statement I just made, I think it's a pretty terrible reason not to be vegan. It's just the only one I can think of that might have some basis in logic. Then again, there are plenty of things I'm not particularly "aware" of in my life... and some of those are probably important as well.

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    I'd say that most people (at least, in my area), do no meal planning at all. I think that they'd be much healthier if they did, but because of the points listed in my previous post, they're not required to in order to sustain themselves
    According to a number of studies, non-vegans normally are deficient in a number of nutrients, some times severely. Since nutrient deficiencies are associated with various diseases, reduced immune system, increased risk for serious heath problems like cancer, diabetes, arthritis and heart disease, I have to disagree that 'they're not required to in order to sustain themselves'. Unlike vegans, who normally come from another diet and therefore )hopefully) learn enough about nutrition to figure out which habits they need to change and to compensate with supplements if needed, meat eaters often live in the middle of two two illusions:

    1) "We don't get sick if we just add some small or large amount of animal products to our diet"
    2) "Unlike vegans, we get the nutrients we need from food".

    Check out some of the info in these threads if you have time...

    Cancer, adaptation and the vegan diet

    Nutrient deficiencies more common in meat eaters than in vegans

    According to this report about a meat free (therefore a not omnivorous diet), vegetarian diets "offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals. Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer."


    This doesn't go well along with assuming that meal planning (read: seriously changing their eating habits) isn't required to in order to sustain themselves...

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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Quote Korn View Post
    According to a number of studies, non-vegans normally are deficient in a number of nutrients, some times severely. Since nutrient deficiencies are associated with various diseases, reduced immune system, increased risk for serious heath problems like cancer, diabetes, arthritis and heart disease, I have to disagree that 'they're not required to in order to sustain themselves'. Unlike vegans, who normally come from another diet and therefore )hopefully) learn enough about nutrition to figure out which habits they need to change and to compensate with supplements if needed, meat eaters often live in the middle of two two illusions:

    1) "We don't get sick if we just add some small or large amount of animal products to our diet"
    2) "Unlike vegans, we get the nutrients we need from food".

    Check out some of the info in these threads if you have time...

    Cancer, adaptation and the vegan diet

    Nutrient deficiencies more common in meat eaters than in vegans

    According to this report about a meat free (therefore a not omnivorous diet), vegetarian diets "offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals. Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer."


    This doesn't go well along with assuming that meal planning (read: seriously changing their eating habits) isn't required to in order to sustain themselves...
    I will take a look at those links. From briefly skimming the posts, though, it doesn't seem to address meal planning. What I mean is, I am making the (possibly incorrect) assumption that your average vegan is more conscious of what they eat than your average non-vegan. Thus, a comparison between the two comparing nutrient deficiencies seems unreasonable.

    You don't have to convince me that veganism is healthier than non-veganism. I'm a firm believer. It's also possible that I don't know what I'm talking about, right? This is all colored by my experiences with the two groups. I know a vegan whose idea of a meal was "2 biggie fries from Wendy's." I doubt he is much healthier than any meat-eater I know. Of course, he's an extreme example, but he's what I'd compare to the type of person who goes out and grabs McDonald's for lunch half the week.

    Or maybe I'm wrong. I dunno.

    Let me go back and re-read what you wrote.

    I guess maybe I wasn't addressing your point. You're stating that my claim of "meat-eaters can survive without meal planning" is false because of the evidence you listed. Considering that evidence, I can't say I think a vegan with a poorly planned diet would be much worse... so I retract that claim.

    Now I feel like I should go back and delete the first two paragraphs, since they don't really contribute much to the conversation. I won't, however, because I think some of the points are still valid. It would be neat to do a comparison between vegan and non-vegan diets that were equally well planned (either bad or good). I'd hate to be part of the "bad diet" control group, though...

    Anyway. That kind of wraps up my original statement, doesn't it? Guess I was wrong. It's not a logical reason.

  16. #16
    Klytemnest
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    [QUOTE]
    Quote RachelJune View Post
    I think this is a great idea for a thread.
    Thanks, Rachel.

    Personally, I can't think of a good argument at the moment,
    Clearly, since we are all vegans, I imagine that none of us consider any of the arguments FOR an omnivorous diet or lifestyle to be good. If I believed there was a compelling argument for living in an omnivorous lifestyle, I would probably not be vegan.

    But having said that, I wonder if any of you have encountered arguments from "the other side" that made you stop and think.

    I don't want to lead this discussion or steer it in any direction, but here is an example of just such an argument:

    Killing animals for food is not ethically problematic because in the wild the animals would be killed anyway - by their predators. And their death at the "hands" of the predators would be much less swift, clean, painless than if they were to be executed by human beings. So, this way, the animal gets to live in a safe environment, gets to have its food provided for it, without any fear or starvation, and, when the time comes, it is killed quickly and as humanely as possible (let's say it is, for the sake of discussion). After all, if by going vegan we are indeed trying to lessen the amount of suffering in the world, shouldn't we then begin a "save the Rabbits" campaign and find ways of saving them from the foxes? If in the wild rabbits are going to get caught by foxes, gruesomely killed and eaten, then how is this different from us hunting rabbits? To the rabbit it's all the same, isn't it?

    Before I get pounced upon, please let me emphasize that this is NOT my view, that I am merely presenting an example of (what I consider to be) a reasonable argument in defense of the choice to be an omnivore.

    but I do think it's a good thing to look at how other's think and to try to understand their views in a constructive way, even if we don't agree with them. I once read a course on philosophy and was surprised at just how much of a skill it is to be able to argue for a view that you don't support, let alone are very much against.
    Absolutely! It warms my heart to hear you say that! And yes, it is a good thing to understand the reasoning of the opposite camp. We have to understand what they are thinking. It will inform our own thinking on the subject.

    So far the responses here have been very interesting.
    Indeed! I am pleasantly surprised by the interest in this thread. I foresee some stimulating conversation in the days to come...

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    Klytemnest
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    Quote BlackCats View Post
    I think the best argument for an omnivorous lifestyle is that eating very small amounts of less fatty meats and fish as well as eating a diet rich in fruit and vegetables with adequate essential fatty acids can easily give you all the necessary nutrition your body needs without having to take any supplements such as B12. If I was an omni defending my lifestyle that is what I would say. I do think that a vegan diet is very healthy but if I ate small amounts of animal products purely for taste reasons I wouldn't see the harm in continuing it or the point in giving it up.

    (I feel kind of guilty saying this, of course I would never admit this to any of my omni friends. Quickly someone disagree with me and prove me wrong!)
    Thanks for your response, BlackCats. I used to have two tuxedo cats. now I am down to one... So I already feel a natural affinity for you

    Basically your hypothetical argument is that there may be some health benefits to some consumption of some meat. Is that about right?

    A month or so ago I sang a concert, after which there was a reception/dinner thingy. I sat down with a few of the patrons. They noticed that the only thing on my plate was vegan food. So we started talking about diets. There was an elderly couple there. The woman told me that most of the time they ate vegetarian, but the doctor had advised her husband to eat fish twice a week. I wasn't about to get into a fight with people who had just paid money to hear me sing, so I let it go.

    My objection to the consumption of fish would have been purely on ethical grounds. I was an ovo-lacto-pesco vegetarian until 2006, and I made myself eat fish from time to time (only when we ate out) because many doctors have indeed praised the benefits of fish oil. So, yes, I see "your" point that there may be a few health benefits to careful and limited meat consumption, such as fish. [Let us for the moment forget about mercury in fish; let's assume that one is talking about pure, uncontaminated fish oil]

    To that my counter-argument would be "You don't need to kill fish in order to get the Omega-3 fatty acids in fish oil. You can get what you need from flax seeds." In fact, I introduced my mom to flax. She bought herself a little coffee grinder and every morning she grinds her own flax seeds and sprinkles them over her cereal. This way she gets her essential fatty acids and no fish were harmed in the process. Problem solved.

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Quote Klytemnest View Post

    Killing animals for food is not ethically problematic because in the wild the animals would be killed anyway - by their predators.
    What do you mean by 'not problematic'? I guess you don't suggest that we can look at what any animal does and say that we can do the same just because some animal does it? Not only would that mean that we would be taking food away from animals that need that food, there aren't enough animals in the wilderness too feed humans anyway.Following the logic you may describe, it wouldn't be "problematic" to do other things animals do either, because they do it (eat their siblings, babies etc), and we'd all end up as cruel beings copying the worst behavior (from a human point of view) from any species we come across. We don't want that. The whole idea of using other species as en excuse for doing something is not even the animals that normally are consider the 'lowest' beings do.

    So, this way, the animal gets to live in a safe environment, gets to have its food provided for it, without any fear or starvation, and, when the time comes, it is killed quickly and as humanely as possible (let's say it is, for the sake of discussion).
    Are you describing factory farms/chicken factories now?


    Before I get pounced upon, please let me emphasize that this is NOT my view
    This is a vegan forum, so why not post your views - or at least their views with your responses then?

  19. #19
    Klytemnest
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    Quote Korn View Post
    What do you mean by 'not problematic'? I guess you don't suggest that we can look at what any animal does and say that we can do the same just because some animal does it? Not only would that mean that we would be taking food away from animals that would need it, there's not enough animals in the wilderness too feed humans anyway, and following the logic you may suggest, it would neither be problematic to do other things animals do, because they do it (eat their siblings, babies etc).


    Are you describing factory farms/chicken factories now?


    This is a vegan forum, so why not post your views - or their views with your responses then?
    Ah, I see someone pounced.

    I presented one of the arguments used by omnivores. I presented their point of view, their reasoning, their argument. It is not my position. So I hope that by "what do you mean" you were not addressing me personally, but rather the hypothetical omnivore (let's call him "Omni") who would present this argument.

    I am presenting Omni's position and asking for comments.

    Once again, we are all vegans here. Let's just put this out on the table: none of us agree with these arguments. But some arguments are more reasonable than others. Some arguments in favor of the omnivorous lifestyle are more reasonable than others. Of course, idiotic arguments like "carrots feel pain too!" are ones we can dismiss as idiotic. But there are other, more complex, better informed, better thought-out, more sophisticated arguments which we may encounter. I think it is important for us to understand that opposite side's view so that our own views may become better informed. And or those of us who are interested in promoting the vegan ideals, it would behoove us to become informed about our opponents' position, so that we know how to defeat it. This is why I started this thread.

  20. #20
    Klytemnest
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Korn View Post
    What do you mean by 'not problematic'? I guess you don't suggest that we can look at what any animal does and say that we can do the same just because some animal does it?
    No, that was not the point Omni was trying to make. The point isn't "Hey, animals kill each other, we are animals, so it's OK to kill animals."

    The point our friend Omni was trying to make was: the animals are going to be killed anyway. In the wild they are going to be killed by predators. And their deaths are going to be messy, gruesome, painful and horrific. At least at the hands of their human executioners they might meet a more merciful, quicker, less painful death. In terms of suffering, this is the better way to go (says Omni).

    Not only would that mean that we would be taking food away from animals that need that food,
    I was debating this with a poster on another board. From what I recall, he said that because the wolf population had been so depleted, there was an overpopulation of deer in the region where he lived. So, he thought that hunting for deer was actually performing an environmental service, rather than harming the ecosystem! How would you respond to this argument? Anyone?

    there aren't enough animals in the wilderness too feed humans anyway.Following the logic you may describe, it wouldn't be "problematic" to do other things animals do either, because they do it (eat their siblings, babies etc),
    That is not the logic I presented, though I can see how one might "go there". That argument is rather unsophisticated and I have little time for it... But it does come up from time to time...

    and we'd all end up as cruel beings copying the worst behavior (from a human point of view) from any species we come across. We don't want that.
    I agree. This is why I am never impressed by appeals to nature. The goal is not to return to a "natural" state, to jungle rule. The goal is to strive for a system of laws and ethics in which unncessary suffering is minimized and happiness is maximized. That's what I think, anyway...

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Sure. Let's just not make it into a list of messages that could be posted by meat eaters or other trolls. IMO, there's a major difference between discussing viewpoints non-vegans may have and just repeating what they say, and we've had cases earlier where people don't really participate in a discussion: they don't respond to counter arguments, but instead start posting the same stuff a not well informed or reflected meat eater would have done.

    I know you mainly participate in discussing religion from an atheist. non-believing perspective here.... have you ever thought of the blind faith - an almost religious belief - meat eaters some times have in what they mom and dad told them? They sometimes use arguments like "meat is suitable for humans" (even if it gives them cancer etc.; their "argument" is that they don't die "immediately", so the food must be OK), or that 'animals are suffering in nature as well, because they are killed by other animals in a cruel way' - and so on.

    It seems that they haven't thought of the difference between having had a life in captivity, with nothing that resembles a natural life at all with their long lives behind bars and how a life of wild sheep, cows or birds would have been. Their defense of factory farms etc seem to be all about rationalizing away their guilt, and they often use animal behavior (killing and eating others, which they not in any way would like to be a victim of themselves) as an 'argument' for how they can treat animals (or pay a slaughter to do it).

    Empathy doesn't seem to include animals, and their 'arguments' rarely remind of arguments... They pick arguments like others pick fruit on a tree, randomly - just talk about the first thing thats pops into their mind - probably to defend themselves, just like that 'argument' about eating what our ancestors ate - until they realized that their diet probably included termites, grasshoppers, mice, earthworms and in some cases - other humans.

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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Quote Klytemnest View Post
    What is the most persuasive argument for the use of animal products? Don't get mad at me, OK? I am not backsliding. I just think it is necessary for us to understand the reasoning of the other side. Perhaps then we could actually address their argument and, if reason be on our side, defeat it.
    Often people say "because it tastes good".

    Personally I think it's a fairly lame argument stacked against the ethics of veganism, but it's hard to counter directly as :
    - it's about their personal perception (i.e. how it tastes to them) and they are presumably experts on their own taste buds, and
    - some people choose not to give a damn about the ethics of veganism

    The counter argument I guess is something along the lines of "a plant based diet taste good too" but it's kinda week because omni's can, in principle, eat all the variety of flavoursome vegan food that we do aswell as meat (even though in practice they don't).

    I think the argument alot of people actually use is "I don't want to think about it. la la la la la" as they stick their metaphorical fingers in their ears. What they are actually doing is choosing not to give a damn, just as I choose not to give a damn about sci-fi. That's also pretty difficult to argue against.

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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    The counter argument I guess is something along the lines of "a plant based diet taste good too" but it's kinda week because omni's can, in principle, eat all the variety of flavoursome vegan food that we do aswell as meat (even though in practice they don't).
    I don't think that's a weak counter argument, there's simply so much good foodstuff in this world that there's no need to eat everything one may like the taste of, especially when there are clear arguments against eating meat (animals suffering environmental/health reasons etc.)

    I think the argument alot of people actually use is "I don't want to think about it. la la la la la"
    That's probbaly a good example of a non-argument, but I hear what you say...



    In case some of you are not aware that we already have some similar thrads - here are some potentially interesting links:
    Are there any good arguments PRO eating meat at all?
    Non-valid arguments for eating meat
    Frequently used arguments...
    Help needed to respond to these arguments...
    Arguments against dairy products
    The Food Chain Argument
    argument
    How to win an argument with a meat-eater

  24. #24
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Quote Klytemnest View Post


    The point our friend Omni was trying to make was: the animals are going to be killed anyway. In the wild they are going to be killed by predators. And their deaths are going to be messy, gruesome, painful and horrific.
    Even deaths in the wilderness can happen quickly. Personally, I'd rather have a happy life as a deer in the wilderness, and a messy, quick death, than a life in captivity with a slightly quicker, less messy death. Plus: nature is nature, and as a human, I can't really do anything with tigers that eat deer anyway, but I can do something with my own diet.


    From what I recall, he said that because the wolf population had been so depleted, there was an overpopulation of deer in the region where he lived. So, he thought that hunting for deer was actually performing an environmental service, rather than harming the ecosystem! How would you respond to this argument? Anyone?
    We already have threads about elephant and roo culls. If you feel OK about being killed if/because there are too many humans around, I guess you are OK with killing deer as well. If not...

  25. #25
    Klytemnest
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Korn View Post
    Sure. Let's just not make it into a list of messages that could be posted by meat eaters or other trolls.
    I didn't know we had trolls on this forum. I honestly have not encountered any drive-by postings from omnivores promoting their agenda. I suppose that does you credit, Korn. Thanks.

    IMO, there's a major difference between discussing viewpoints non-vegans may have and just repeating what they say, and we've had cases earlier where people don't really participate in a discussion: they don't respond to counter arguments, but instead start posting the same stuff a not well informed or reflected meat eater would have done.
    Subtle, Korn.

    Nobody here is interested in promoting the omnivore point of view. I am asking that their arguments be discussed on this forum. I am hoping that this discussion will help me offer better counter-arguments to Omni's arguments in the future.

    I know you mainly participate in discussing religion from an atheist. non-believing perspective here....
    Is that OK?

    have you ever thought of the blind faith - an almost religious belief - meat eaters some times have in what they mom and dad told them? They sometimes use arguments like "meat is suitable for humans" (even if it gives them cancer etc.; their "argument" is that they don't die "immediately", so the food must be OK), or that 'animals are suffering in nature as well, because they are killed by other animals in a cruel way' - and so on.
    I am not going to go there with you, Korn. We've been down this path and last time you threatened to kick me off the forum. So, please, let's not go there again.

    It seems that they haven't thought of the difference between having had a life in captivity, with nothing that resembles a natural life at all with their long lives behind bars and how a life of wild sheep, cows or birds would have been. Their defense of factory farms etc seem to be all about rationalizing away their guilt, and they often use animal behavior (killing and eating others, which they not in any way would like to be a victim of themselves) as an 'argument' for how they can treat animals (or pay a slaughter to do it).
    OK. This is what I was looking for. Yes, I agree that most of it is about rationalizing. But what about hunting? The killed animal would most likely have been killed by a predator. If the killing was swifter and more humane, is this not preferable to the animal being torn apart limb by limb by its predator? From what I have read, in the wild most animals simply do not die a peaceful death. When their predators perceive that they are weak or dying, they go after them because they are easy to catch. So, the world in where old and sick animals die a "natural" death is utopian. This is what Omni (not Rami) says. What do you say to that?

    Empathy doesn't seem to include animals,
    I see that as the greatest obstacle to their seeing our point of view. Feelings are largely involuntary. If one is not moved to pity, then one is not moved to pity. I find it disturbing how we, people, can simply disconnect their empathy. Look at what the Nazis were able to do to the concentration camp victims - while being loving husbands and fathers! I think the answer is that children need to be taught early on to include all sentient beings within their sphere of moral concern.

    Actually, now that you mention it, I found a "vegan" on youtube who was a vegan for health reasons, but according to him the whole business of "oh, I think animals are pretty, so I think it's wrong to kill them" was stupid. Wow...

    and their 'arguments' rarely remind of arguments... They pick arguments like others pick fruit on a tree, randomly - just talk about the first thing thats pops into their mind - probably to defend themselves, just like that 'argument' about eating what our ancestors ate - until they realized that their diet probably included termites, grasshoppers, mice, earthworms and in some cases - other humans.
    Yes, I agree that many of their arguments are poor. But I'd like to hear if others have heard of any arguments that took a bit more effort to defeat.

    Please keep in mind that the devil's advocate is not the devil.

  26. #26
    Klytemnest
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    Quote starlight View Post
    Often people say "because it tastes good".

    Personally I think it's a fairly lame argument stacked against the ethics of veganism, but it's hard to counter directly as :
    - it's about their personal perception (i.e. how it tastes to them) and they are presumably experts on their own taste buds, and
    - some people choose not to give a damn about the ethics of veganism

    The counter argument I guess is something along the lines of "a plant based diet taste good too" but it's kinda week because omni's can, in principle, eat all the variety of flavoursome vegan food that we do aswell as meat (even though in practice they don't).

    I think the argument alot of people actually use is "I don't want to think about it. la la la la la" as they stick their metaphorical fingers in their ears. What they are actually doing is choosing not to give a damn, just as I choose not to give a damn about sci-fi. That's also pretty difficult to argue against.
    Thanks for your response. I agree about their choosing not to care. A friend of mine is like that and it is very difficult for me to go out to eat with her, especially since she always makes a point of telling the waiter "Unlike Rami, I'm a meatatarian." Oy...

    "It tastes good" may be a "reason", but it's not really an argument. What I was looking for were ethical arguments they use in defense of omnivory (is that a word? And if it's not, can we make it one?). In other words, how do they ethically justify their choices?

    Thanks again,

    Rami

  27. #27
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    I am not going to go there with you, Korn. We've been down this path and last time you threatened to kick me off the forum.
    I'll probably respond to your post later, but no - I didn't threaten you in the Vegan/non-vegan: Does 'natural' matter?-thread - I encouraged you to participate in the actual discussion and respond to the questions that you were asked. Look for question marks in that thread and you'll see what I mean...

    You registered a year ago and told us then that you have decided to go vegan back then, and I don't criticize you for sometimes 'thinking like a non-vegan'; it's not you I'm after, it's some of the myths normally promoted and kept alive by non-vegans I'm after...

  28. #28
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    Quote Korn View Post
    Even deaths in the wilderness can happen quickly. Personally, I'd rather have a happy life as a deer in the wilderness, and a messy, quick death, than a life in captivity with a slightly quicker, less messy death.
    How about if the deer had a happy life in the wild and then had a clean, quick death, killed by a hunter? (Asks Omni)

    Plus: nature is nature, and as a human, I can't really do anything with tigers that eat deer anyway, but I can do something with my own diet.
    I agree. Personally I think that it sucks that animals have to be killed and eaten by carnivores... It's unfortunate. But we are not carnivores. We do not need meat or any animal products. So we do not have to cause suffering.

    We already have threads about elephant and roo culls. If you feel OK about being killed if/because there are too many humans around, I guess you are OK with killing deer as well. If not...
    It sounds as if you are addressing me directly. Once again, I want to emphasize that I am not presenting my own point of view when I present some of the arguments used by omnivores. I hope that by phrasing your sentence the way you did, you were not implying that my position was in accord with theirs. Then again, I know English is neither mine nor your first language, so perhaps this is the reason it raised a red flag for me.

    Having said that, I must say I agree. "Helping" the ecosystem because there are too many humans in a given geographic area by killing a number of them is no less ethically reprehensible than killing deer because of an overpopulation "problem."

  29. #29
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    I know you are playing the Devil's advocate here (mainly.. you have been using some of the same arguments earlier), and I don't have a problem with that, but maybe it's a good idea to start separate threads about all the potential topics that may pop here (like deer culling)... after all, we have a lot of threads about traditional arguments coming from omnis already, and even a poll (with discussion) about the most common comments from omnivores...


    How about if the deer had a happy life in the wild and then had a clean, quick death, killed by a hunter? (Asks Omni)
    If the omni have a happy life and still is OK with being killed because some guy happens to like hunting or the taste if his flesh I understand that he thinks the same way on the behalf of the deer, but I doubt that anyone is happy with having their happy life converted into... food.

  30. #30
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    Quote Korn View Post
    I'll probably respond to your post later, but no - I didn't threaten you in the Vegan/non-vegan: Does 'natural' matter?-thread - I encouraged you to participate in the actual discussion and respond to the questions that you were asked. Look for question marks in that thread and you'll see what I mean...

    You registered a year ago and told us then that you have decided to go vegan back then, and I don't criticize you for sometimes 'thinking like a non-vegan'; it's not you I'm after, it's some of the myths normally promoted and kept alive by non-vegans I'm after...
    I appreciate you saying that, Korn. For a while now I have wondered if you do not suspect me of being a "troll" who has slyly snuck into this vegan oasis, intent on promoting an omnivorous agenda. And that has made me feel very uneasy. I feel I have much to gain from an exchange with a seasoned vegan and sophisticated thinker you, but because of this I have stayed away from engaging you in conversation. I don't want to feel uncomfortable anymore. I want to clear the air.

    You are right. I am still a baby in terms of being a vegan. This is new to me. Heck, just today I bought my first bottle of Agave Nectar. (Oh, dear god, is that stuff good!!!!) But I do not think like a non-vegan. At least I do not think I do. When I present these arguments, it is not that I am looking for a loophole that will justify eating meat again. Just in case that is what you think, let me assure you, it is not. I am a vegan for life. Ethics are of paramount importance to me. The reason I debate religion so much is because it has an impact on ethics. And ethics must be reasonable. Our choices must be reasonable. All I am trying to do is complete an air-tight, reasonable defense of my choice to live a vegan lifestyle. I am not here to challenge or oppose any vegan ideals. Please know that.

    I do not want there to be any antagonism between us and I hope that with this exchange we will have cleared the air and that we can start anew.

    Are we cool again?

  31. #31
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Korn View Post

    If the omni have a happy life and still is OK with being killed because some guy happens to like hunting or the taste if his flesh I understand that he thinks the same way on the behalf of the deer, but I doubt that anyone is happy with having their happy life converted into... food.
    I hear what you are saying, but I know Omni will say "but the deer's happy life will (most likely) be converted into food - by a predator. So why is it OK for the wolf to kill the deer, but not OK for a man to kill the deer?"

    If the happiness of the deer is the issue, then shouldn't we try to save the deer from the wolf?

    Wow. I have spent almost the whole day in front of this computer, on this forum. I am going to the gym. See you tomorrow.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    The wolf is a carnivore (and can't help eating meat) but the man does not need meat.
    Eve

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    Quote eve View Post
    The wolf is a carnivore (and can't help eating meat) but the man does not need meat.
    So then, the "happiness" of the deer is not the issue?

    I agree with you, eve. The issue is the necessity of suffering. Like it or not, it is necessary for the wolf to kill the deer. Thus the suffering of the deer, as unfortunate as it may be, is necessary. That is not the case with us humans. It is unnecessary for us to eat meat. Everything we need we can obtain from other sources. Therefore, the deliberate causing of animal suffering is unjustifiable. This is why I am vegan.

    But, what about places like rural Alaska, parts of Canada, and Siberia, where plant sources of nutrition are scarce? What about the native Americans who for thousands of years have lived largely on the meat of animals they have hunted? What is the solution? Don't live there? Is veganism a reasonable option for parts of the world where it is not sustainable on the local level? What do you think? It's easy for me to pontificate about the virtues of veganism - because I live within a couple of miles of Trader Joe's, Henry's and Whole Foods, and I shop at a Seventh-Day Adventist vegetarian store near the university where I teach. I have all kinds of vegan options to choose from? Not everyone is as fortunate as I.

  34. #34
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Quote Klytemnest View Post
    Are we cool again?
    Have we really been 'uncool'? I don't think so...

    I trust that you aren't a troll, but due to what probably is only habitual think, you 'argued' like a troll in that other thread... One doesn't need to think that humans are natural herbivores to be a vegan, but a real discussion is more enjoyable (and useful) than just presenting our conclusions to each other.

    At the same time, I don't really think one person can change another... on the contrary, if one tries to hard to influence someone, they might just as well take a step in a the opposite direction. The reason I asked the questions I did in that other thread, was that I'm pretty convinced that if you actually answered these question you'd find out that the common reasons for assuming that humans are natural omnivores are rather... thin, but I'll rather post a little something in the other thread instead of making this into a new Are humans Natural Omnivores-thread. But of course: no bad feelings.

    "It tastes good" may be a "reason", but it's not really an argument. What I was looking for were ethical arguments they use in defense of omnivory (is that a word? And if it's not, can we make it one?). In other words, how do they ethically justify their choices?
    'Taste' is probably the most reasonable explanation behind their actions, but as you say, it's not an argument. Plus, if we look at an argument isolated from other arguments, we can't really evaluate how valid it is: Even if I like hummus with pita, that's not a valid reason for walking into some poor mans house and eat his hummus. The fact that cannibals like human meat isn't a valid reason for taking a humans' life, and the problem with omnivores is that they don't seem to have one single, valid argument for eating animal products.


    [QUOTE]But what about hunting? The killed animal would most likely have been killed by a predator. If the killing was swifter and more humane, is this not preferable to the animal being torn apart limb by limb by its predator? From what I have read, in the wild most animals simply do not die a peaceful death. [quote]
    I can't find a valid reason for hunting, and my viewpoints about animal hunting are the same as I have about human hunting. I simply have no right or desire to decide when another living being shall die. Besides - it doesn't need to die (for my taste-buds or nutrient needs) and again, if the human population would try to live off hunting in today's world, most of us would starve after a few days. It would stop itself.


    When their predators perceive that they are weak or dying, they go after them because they are easy to catch. So, the world in where old and sick animals die a "natural" death is utopian.
    If carnivorous animals only kill animals that are weak or dying, it would only show that they make more sense than humans who kill the animals they eat many years before they are ready to die, but I think many carnivores eat young animals as well.



    How about if the deer had a happy life in the wild and then had a clean, quick death, killed by a hunter? (Asks Omni)
    If an omnivore would ask me that, I'd just ask the same question to him. What if you had a happy life and another human or animal would suddenly would 'give' you a clean, quick death? If that wouldn't be desirable acceptable for you, why would it be OK for another human or non-human animal? We don't need animal products, animals don't want to die, so why even discuss ways to kill them with an omnivore?


    Jerry Seinfeld:
    Some of the events in the Olympics don't make sense to me.
    I don't understand the connection to any reality...
    Like in the Winter Olympics they have that biathlon.
    That combines cross-country skiing with shooting a gun.
    How many alpine snipers are into this?
    Ski, shoot a gun... ski, bang, bang, bang...
    It's like combining swimming and strangle a guy.
    To me, the link between being happy / being killed is a lot more absurd... If I'm happy, I want to experience that happiness, and not to be killed by someone who happens to like human meat, and in this respect, I think animals and humans are equal.

  35. #35
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    But, what about places like rural Alaska, parts of Canada, and Siberia, where plant sources of nutrition are scarce?
    If these people would have been vegans, they probably wouldn't even have lived there, or have found a way to store plants (enough for survival) throughout the winter.

    What about the native Americans who for thousands of years have lived largely on the meat of animals they have hunted? What is the solution? Don't live there?
    Since humans can survive relatively cold winters in the Himalayas without meat, I can't see why the native Americans living relatively close to Equator - and not in the mountains - would need to hunt. Maybe the hunting (and cannibalism) started in periods of draught or hunger, and then they just continued - or maybe the hunting happens as a result of not enough knowledge about how one can survive without animal products. Eskimos also traditionally lived mainly on animal products, but the result was a much shorter lifespan than other humans.

    Here's our thread about being vegan in cold climates.

    One last thing - just like apes, humans 'ape' as well, and throughout history we have looked at what carnivorous animals and to some extent copied what they did, at least in periods / many areas. The problem is only that our way of aping others aren't always very smart. Unlike chimps, we continue to ape even when we don't need to. Look here:
    Apes 'Ape' More Rationally Than Humans

  36. #36
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    There are plenty of flawed arguments, which can be argued against fairly easily.

    At some point or another the argument seems to come down to taste, convenience or tradition.

    I very often hear "I just like meat" or "This is the way the world is". Weak reasoning indeed. In my opinion there is no good arguments so from my experience these must the "best" or perhaps most popular arguments I have been offered.

  37. #37

    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    The world would be full of marauding killer sheep.
    ..but what would they do with all the cows?..

  38. #38
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    Quote Klytemnest View Post
    In other words, how do they ethically justify their choices?
    That's the point though, there is no argument that can 'ethically justify' an omnivorous lifestyle.
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Quote Klytemnest View Post
    What about the native Americans who for thousands of years have lived largely on the meat of animals they have hunted?
    what native americans are you talking about?
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  40. #40
    Klytemnest
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    [quote=Korn;491590] Have we really been 'uncool'? I don't think so...

    It felt like it to me. I felt that you were this close to kicking me off the board. And it made me stay away from responding to any of your posts - because I was afraid that just one more disagreement would lead to my being exiled.

    I trust that you aren't a troll,
    You don't sound convinced...

    but due to what probably is only habitual think, you 'argued' like a troll in that other thread... One doesn't need to think that humans are natural herbivores to be a vegan, but a real discussion is more enjoyable (and useful) than just presenting our conclusions to each other.
    It wasn't habitual think, Korn. I think long and hard about these things. I said all I had to say on that thread. Our disagreement was basically about what "adapted" means. I chose not to engage in conversation with you at that time because I was sensing aggressiveness in your posts. And let's face it - you are the god of this forum, so I did not want to piss you off by continuing the conversation. I felt it was my right to make that choice. But let's not go over this all over again. You and I disagree. And our disagreement is not really about substance but about what the word "adapted" means in the statement "Humans are/are not adapted to eating meat."

    Furthermore, whether or not we are adapated to eating meat is utterly irrelevant. So, why waste all that energy - on this forum? Like you said, one does not have to believe that humans are natural herbivores in order to be a vegan.

    The reason I asked the questions I did in that other thread, was that I'm pretty convinced that if you actually answered these question you'd find out that the common reasons for assuming that humans are natural omnivores are rather... thin, but I'll rather post a little something in the other thread instead of making this into a new Are humans Natural Omnivores-thread.
    I have thought about this. I have answered those questions. But, with all due respect, I just cannot engage you in conversation about this again. I'll end up pissing you off again, and this time you'll kick me out for real. I know it's an issue you feel passionately about. It's not something I am passionate about - because I see it as irrelevant. Besides, my blood pressure is nice and low right now. I like it that way...

    But of course: no bad feelings.
    Fantastic! Platonic hug?


    the problem with omnivores is that they don't seem to have one single, valid argument for eating animal products.
    I agree. Their basic position is "I want to because I like it. Who are you to tell me not to?!" And when they say this, I use the analogy of rape. Why shouldn't we rape? Unfortunately this strikes a nerve (it must) and they say that this is a bad analogy since eating chicken is not the same as raping someone. Why, I ask? Well, because raping a woman is wrong and killing a chicken is not. So we are back at square one. To them the concept of equal consideration of interests is something very foreign and strange.

    [QUOTE]
    [quote]But what about hunting? The killed animal would most likely have been killed by a predator. If the killing was swifter and more humane, is this not preferable to the animal being torn apart limb by limb by its predator? From what I have read, in the wild most animals simply do not die a peaceful death.

    I can't find a valid reason for hunting, and my viewpoints about animal hunting are the same as I have about human hunting. I simply have no right or desire to decide when another living being shall die. Besides - it doesn't need to die (for my taste-buds or nutrient needs) and again, if the human population would try to live off hunting in today's world, most of us would starve after a few days. It would stop itself.
    I feel the same way. But let me see if I can crystalize our position. Omni's point is that the deer would, in a way, be better off, if it were killed by a bullet, than torn apart wolves. Our objection to hunting is that we should not be in a position to make life-and-death decisions for anyone else, just as we would not want for anyone else to make those decisions about us.

    I don't know if this relates at all, but this brings to mind how I put my beloved Paolo to sleep on January 19, 2007. I have agonized about it ever since. He had a horrible oral cancer that was incredibly aggressive and was approaching his brain. It was so difficult for me to make that decision - the decision to kill my cat. But I felt that it was the merciful thing to do. Letting him die a miserable death, letting "God" decide when his time was up would have been inhumane. As wounded as I still feel by experience, I want to believe that what I did was the humane thing to do. So, in some instances making life-and-death decisions is desirable. Don't you think?

    If carnivorous animals only kill animals that are weak or dying, it would only show that they make more sense than humans who kill the animals they eat many years before they are ready to die, but I think many carnivores eat young animals as well.
    That's a good point. Hunters often kill animals that are in the prime of their lives, thereby robbing them of their chance to experience existence. And let's face it, hunters don't really do it for the food. They do it as a sport. A friend of mine is moving to Missouri. She's been looking for a house there. One advertisement said that the house had a "trophy room" - where one can mount the heads of animals they have killed. I shuddered.

    If an omnivore would ask me that, I'd just ask the same question to him. What if you had a happy life and another human or animal would suddenly would 'give' you a clean, quick death? If that wouldn't be desirable acceptable for you, why would it be OK for another human or non-human animal? We don't need animal products, animals don't want to die, so why even discuss ways to kill them with an omnivore?
    It's not for our edification, Korn. We are already convinced. It is so that we can understand their position, their reasoning, so that we can better argue against them. I wanted the opinions of other vegans on this board, so that in the future I will have a nice catalogue of answers to offer.


    Jerry Seinfeld:


    To me, the link between being happy / being killed is a lot more absurd... If I'm happy, I want to experience that happiness, and not to be killed by someone who happens to like human meat, and in this respect, I think animals and humans are equal.
    Is Jerry Seinfeld a vegan???? I must say, I was a little disappointed with the message of his Bee Movie... I think it was someone on this board who must have been influenced by it because they argued that using honey will cause the bees to make more honey, and thus will help the bee population, which in turn will help the plants.

  41. #41
    Klytemnest
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    Quote sandra View Post
    That's the point though, there is no argument that can 'ethically justify' an omnivorous lifestyle.
    Obviously we feel that way. If we didn't we wouldn't be vegans.

    But what I am interested is how they justify their choices, what reasoning they use to defend them - so that we (well, I) can formulate a reasonable counter-argument.

    Please remember, as a vegan I am a two-year old baby. Much of this stuff is not a no-brainer to me - yet. I actually have to think about it. Your input is appreciated.

  42. #42
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    Quote missbettie View Post
    what native americans are you talking about?
    Well, the ones up in the extreme north, like Canada, Alaska, where planting and harvesting is just not practical or even possible.

  43. #43
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    oh ok...i was about to say "what the hell are you talking about?!" lol
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  44. #44
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    Quote missbettie View Post
    oh ok...i was about to say "what the hell are you talking about?!" lol
    Hahaha. Yes, those Native Americans... There is probably a more specific name for them, but I am ignorant of it.

    How is the weather in Ventura today? I was there a few days ago. It was kind of overcast...

    Oh, by the way, have you eaten at SpiritLand in Santa Barbara??? Oh, sweet Jesus, the BEST vegan food ever!!!! Google'em!

    Ciao,

    Rami

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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    lol I think they like to be refered to as whatever their tribe name is, it gets reeeeallly complicated, especially with the Chumash here. But as a group i think the most politically correct term is now Ingenious People...but thats the last i heard. I've spent a lot of time around different tribes, i grew up with a bunch of archeologists and at pow wows.

    Its actually been quite overcast but it starts to burn off in the afternoon. I actually move to Ojai a few months ago...its always hot here...i think its 87 degrees F right now, its always interesting going from home to work ( i work in Ventura) once you get over the hill the weather is totally different...I've never eatten there before!! I must try it! Next time you are in Ventura go to Mary's Secret Garden...best Vegan food ever!!! If you need an address just PM me!!

    I had no idea you were so close to me Rami!
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  46. #46
    I eve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    missbettie, You say: "i think the most politically correct term is now Ingenious People"

    Do you mean indigenous people?
    'Native Americans' is also used - better than 'red indians'!
    Eve

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    missbettie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    ya i did, however i cannot spell. it is better but there was some arguement that they actually aren't "native" americans.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Quote Klytemnest View Post
    But what I am interested is how they justify their choices, what reasoning they use to defend them - so that we (well, I) can formulate a reasonable counter-argument.

    I have always found in discussions with omnivores they usually can't 'justify' their choices. They try all the usual statements and then petulantly state, 'Well, I like the taste of meat' as if that makes it all right then.
    Heaven forbid we get to the stage where we all do what we like just because we 'want' to.
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Quote herbwormwood View Post
    If society sees animals as products and commodities then it is logical to use and profit from them. There is no reason to be vegan or vegetarian from this POV other than health or maybe environmental reasons.

    Vegans mostly don't see animals as products or commodities.

    I agree. I have had long discussions about veganism with other people before and the conversation always seems to end up in the same place; whether we value our fellow animals as equals or not. I do, and as a result I do not feel comfortable with their exploitation. However, if you do not (and there is no way of telling who is right - in the absence of religion anyway) then there is no reason why you should avoid products whose production has harmed animals.

    This understanding of other people's fundamental views makes me realise how pointless it is to try and preach to people (and also further cements my own beliefs). However, if someone asks, I'm happy to explain veganism to them!

  50. #50
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle

    Quote Klytemnest View Post
    I was afraid that just one more disagreement would lead to my being exiled.
    People aren't being 'exiled' for disagreeing here.



    You don't sound convinced...
    I'm not always convinced that you are convinced


    But let's not go over this all over again.
    No need to, but maybe you can help me with responding to the questions I just posted in that other thread... as I wrote over there, I'd like to make a questionnaire for non-vegans, and since you are the main 'humans are natural omnivores' guy here, you're the perfect beta tester for such a survey! And by the way, I think the 'humans are natural omnivores' topic is highly relevant to the topic of this thread...


    Furthermore, whether or not we are adapated to eating meat is utterly irrelevant. So, why waste all that energy - on this forum?
    I disagree - see above. It's just as relevant as this thread, since it deals with opinions or pseudo-opinions many non-vegans have.


    Like you said, one does not have to believe that humans are natural herbivores in order to be a vegan.
    True.



    I have answered those questions.
    No, you haven't - and even if you had, as you can see - I have 40 new questions for you now.


    I'll end up pissing you off again, and this time you'll kick me out for real.
    Invalid myths may trigger something in me, but you don't piss me off. Plus, again: we don't kick people out for their opinions (unless they are anti-vegans, in which case they have come to the wrong site)...


    I know it's an issue you feel passionately about. It's not something I am passionate about - because I see it as irrelevant.
    It's very relevant for the 99% of the population that aren't vegans...!






    It's not for our edification, Korn. We are already convinced. It is so that we can understand their position, their reasoning, so that we can better argue against them.
    I know, which is why I'm still responding...



    Is Jerry Seinfeld a vegan????
    Apparently he's a vegetarian, but due to your quoteophobia, you set up what I wrote so it seems that he said what I actually said.


    So - sorry, but no Platonic hug yet - please answer my questions first. It's good for your blood pressure!

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