MSG - Monosodium Glutamate

[LyricSarah]

Okay...so I had some of my bf's veggie chow mein the other night...no animal ingredients...it was okay...not the best...and i had some leftovers tonight in my salad...I felt really yucky and thought hey, maybe theres some msg...so i called the place where we got it I asked politely if there was and..yes, there was. ugh...i have been so good about avoiding crap like that...no perservatives or artificial food colorings/sweetners....of course...I should have guessed considering most chinese food in America is prepared with it...but i feel so yucky like its just stuck in my stomach....I just needed to vent because i feel guilty:P

Sarah

[eve]

You'd be hardpressed to find a chinese restaurant that doesn't use msg. It was good that they were honest with you when you called them to ask. But no need to feel guilty.

[veganblue]

U.S. Food and Drug Administration on monosodium glutamate.

Research on glutamate from glutamate.org

Wikipedia entry and links

Hopefully some of these links will help allay any concerns about the safety of MSG. You may be in one of two categories (or both); strong sensitivity to large concentrations, or, what is called, poorly maintained asthma. Hopefully it is neither of these since msg is found naturally in a lot of foods.

[Roxy]

I avoid MSG wherever I can - even in things such as chips and canned soups. It upsets my system by giving me headaches, an unquenchable thirst and quite bad stomach aches.

Luckilly - there is a Chinese restaurant close by here that don't use MSG.

I understand you wanting to avoid it.

[John]

I would be more worried about the fact that chow mein is an egg noodle.
As are lo mein and many other Chinese noodles.

[LyricSarah]

there were no noodles...they package the noodles seperately...just veggies (sprouts water chesnuts celery cabbage mushrooms and snow peas)

[andesuma]

I just read this article:

http://www.organicconsumers.org/food.../msg091405.cfm


I've long since studied MSG(ever since I began vegan),
and how it effects humans.. but, from my experience, a lot of vegans don't
know about MSG... , so here are some other interesting links:

www.truthinlabeling.org
http://www.truthinlabeling.org/HowIsItManufactured.html
http://vegan-info.com/additives.html

[DianeVegan]

I get the OCA newsletter and read some of the articles with a healthy dose of scepticism (just like I read the New York Times with scepticism ). Considering how prevalent MSG is in some Asian cuisines I would expect those people eating them to have the same amount of obesity. Interesting, but I don't think MSG is causing our levels of obesity. I think it's much more complicated than that. But another good reason to avoid processed foods!

[rujoon]

Yeh, in asian cusines which are sold outside... but u can cook at home and dun drink the soup if u r eating out

[bittersweet]

In my opinion, MSG if used sensibly is no more harmful than salt - you can easily overdo it, some people have to avoid it altogether, but in the main it can be used sparingly to enhance food.

I would also posit that many of its "addictive" qualities come from its superior ability to stimulate tastebuds, thereby providing a taste sensation unfilled by other foods - people crave stimulation.

I personally don't buy pre-packaged foods with MSG because I can't control the quantities - but I do use it ocassionally in my own cooking...

[peaches22]

Okay, forgive me for being ignorant, but you can buy MSG for cooking? What form is it in, how much do you use, and why again? I thought it was only used as a preservative.

[bittersweet]

It is sold by many "ethnic" shops in Britain, usually in little packets. I have bought it in powder and crystal form - I think the crystals are easier to "portion", so prefer them.

Sometimes called "taste" powder, or "flavour enhancer", it is white (like salt), and has the same lack of scent. And I personally use a pinch or two if I think something needs a more "savoury" flavour.

[Roxy]

I avoid MSG wherever I know it is used. This is because it makes me ill. Physically ill. I would get an unquenchable thirst, stomach pains and sometimes even vomiting. I'm not sure why my body rejects it but it does. To me - it's a form of poison.

[foxytina_69]

my mother was really allergic to msg. thankfully, theres alot of chinese places here that dont use it.

[screamingcarrot]

i try to avoid it cause it gives me headaches. i have a friend who gets terrible migraines and vommitting from even the tiniest bit of it.

[Risker]

Glutamic acid and its ions and salts called glutamates, are flavor compounds that provide umami or savory taste to food. Glutamic acid is a natural constituent of many fermented or aged foods, including soy sauce, fermented bean paste, and cheese, as well as of hydrolyzed protein such as yeast extract. Glutamic acid in its sodium salt form monosodium glutamate (MSG) is a widely used flavor enhancer used in the food industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamic_acid_(flavor)


What's everyones opinions on MSG?

[shiny2008]

I don't like MSG, it can bring me light-headed. In China, some (more) families use MSG but some don't-as have diabetic or other reasons...

If people felt uncomfortable after had food with MSG, drink some tea can make them feel better, have you ever heard about this?

[cobweb]

it gives me a headache - i use Tamari instead of soy sauce

[cedarblue]

msg makes me unnaturally sleepy tired - i avoid it.

[Risker]

Here's some extracts from an article on MSG I found interesting

This last fact is of little interest to the Japanese - like most Asians, they have no fear of MSG. And there lies one of the world's great food scare conundrums. If MSG is bad for you - as Jeffrey Steingarten, the great American Vogue food writer once put it - why doesn't everyone in China have a headache?

We now know that glutamate is present in almost every food stuff, and that the protein is so vital to our functioning that our own bodies produce 40 grams of it a day. Probably the most significant discovery in explaining human interest in umami is that human milk contains large amounts of glutamate (at about 10 times the levels present in cow's milk). Babies have very basic taste buds: it's believed that mother's milk offers two taste enhancements - sugar (as lactose) and umami (as glutamate) in the hope that one or other will get the little blighters drinking. Which means mothers' milk and a packet of cheese'n'onion crisps have rather more in common than you'd think.

Ripe cheese is full of glutamate, as are tomatoes. Parmesan, with 1200mg per 100 grams, is the substance with more free glutamate in it than any other natural foodstuff on the planet. Almost all foods have some naturally occurring glutamate in them but the ones with most are obvious: ripe tomatoes, cured meats, dried mushrooms, soy sauce, Bovril and of course Worcester sauce, nam pla (with 950mg per 100g) and the other fermented fish sauces of Asia.

Your mate, Marmite, with 1750mg per 100g, has more glutamate in it than any other manufactured product on the planet - except a jar of Gourmet Powder straight from the Ajinomoto MSG factory. On the label, Marmite calls it 'yeast extract'. Nowhere in all their literature does the word 'glutamate' appear. I asked Unilever why they were so shy about their spread's key ingredient, and their PR told me that it was because it was 'naturally occurring ... the glutamate occurs naturally in the yeast'.

...In the New England Journal of Medicine, a Dr Ho Man Kwok wrote a chatty article, not specifically about MSG, whose knock-on effects were to panic the food industry. 'I have experienced a strange syndrome whenever I have eaten out in a Chinese restaurant, especially one that served northern Chinese food. The syndrome, which usually begins 15 to 20 minutes after I have eaten the first dish, lasts for about two hours, without hangover effect. The most prominent symptoms are numbness at the back of the neck, gradually radiating to both arms and the back, general weakness and palpitations...'

And so was born Chinese restaurant syndrome (CRS) and a medico-academic industry dedicated to the researching and publicising of the dangers of MSG - the foreign migrant contaminating American kitchens. Shortly after Dr Ho came Dr John Olney at Washington University, who in 1969 injected and force-fed newborn mice with huge doses of up to four grams/kg bodyweight of MSG. He reported that they suffered brain lesions and claimed that the MSG found in just one bowl of tinned soup would do the same to the brain of a two-year-old.

Other scientists were testing MSG and finding no evidence of harm - in one 1970 study 11 humans ate up to 147 grams of the stuff every day for six weeks without any adverse reactions. At the University of Western Sydney the researchers concluded, tersely: 'Chinese restaurant syndrome is an anecdote applied to a variety of postprandial illnesses; rigorous and realistic scientific evidence linking the syndrome to MSG could not be found.'

Science has still not found a convincing explanation for CRS: indeed, some researchers suggest it may well be to do with the other things diners have imbibed there - peanuts, shellfish, large amounts of lager. Others say that fear of MSG is a form of mass psychosis - you suffer the symptoms you've been told to worry about.

In 2002, New Scientist got very excited over a report that MSG might damage your eyesight, after Japanese scientists announced that they had produced retinal thinning in baby rats fed with MSG. It turned out they were putting 20 grams of MSG in every 100g of rat food - an amazing amount, given that, in the UK, we adults consume about four grams of it each a week. (One project took people who were convinced their asthma was caused by MSG and fed them up to six grams of it a day, without ill-effects). However, at no time has any official body, governmental or academic, ever found it necessary to warn humans against consuming MSG.

But popular opinion has travelled - spectacularly - in the opposite direction to science. By the early eighties, fuelled by books like Russell Blaylock's Excitotoxins - The Taste That Kills, MSG's name was utter mud. Google MSG today, and you'll find it blamed for causing asthma attacks, migraines, hypertension and heart disease, dehydration, chest pains, depression, attention deficit disorder, anaphylactic shock, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's diseases and a host of diverse allergies.

It's not surprising that the MSG-makers are so busy on their product's image, because MSG-phobia still shows no signs of subsiding. This despite the fact that every concerned public body that ever investigated it has given it a clean bill of health, including the EU, the United Nations food agencies (which in 1988 put MSG on the list of 'safest food additives'), and the British, Japanese and Australian governments.

In fact, every government across the world that has a food licensing and testing system gives MSG - 'at normal levels in the diet' - the thumbs-up. The US Food and Drug Administration has three times, in 1958, 1991 and 1998, reviewed the evidence, tested the chemical and pronounced it 'genuinely recognised as safe.

However, there remains a body of respected nutritionists who are sure MSG causes problems - especially in children. And parents listen. Most doctors who offer guides to parents qualify their warnings about MSG - it may cause problems, it has been anecdotally linked with disorders. But public figures like the best-selling nutrition guru Patrick Holford are powerful advocates against MSG. He's sure the science shows that MSG causes migraines and he is convinced of the dangers of the substance to children, particularly in the child-grabber snacks like Monster Munch and Cheesy Wotsits .

'I'm a practitioner and there's no doubt that kids with behavioural problems react to MSG,' he says. 'I've given them the foods, and seen the different reactions. Glutamate is a brain stimulant in the way that it is given, because it enhances sensory perception in the sense that things taste much better - and some kids become very hyperactive.'

Holford admits that he has not measured this hyperactivity, or tested MSG by itself on children - his statements are based on anecdotal comparison of the effects of plain crisps versus flavoured ones. But there is some justice in his complaint that in all the acres of research on MSG, 'most is directed at the possible physiological effects, not the behavioural ones'.

Eric Taylor, professor of child and adolescent psychiatry at King's College in London, is among the leading British experts on food additives and children's behaviour. He was a pioneer of 'elimination tests' that examined food additives and their effect on children - establishing, for one, that the colouring tartrazine did contribute to hyperactivity.

Yet he does not think MSG is a culprit and he has never tested it. Why? 'There are so many substances, and there's not much funding. And, with MSG, there's no reasonable physiological theorem to justify the research.' The only investigation he has seen on children's brains and MSG, conducted in the seventies, suggested that the substance might improve reading ability.

Patrick Holford, like many of MSG's foes, also talks of its possible addictive properties and he cannot explain why 'natural' glutamate, say in cheese or parma ham, should be any less addictive, or harmful, than glutamate that's been industrially produced and stabilised with salt.

The anti-additive movement (check out the excellent and informative www.truthinlabeling.org) admits that 'natural' and 'industrially produced' glutamate are chemically the same, and treated by the body similarly. So why doesn't anyone ever complain of a headache or hyperactivity after a four cheese and tomato pizza (where there's easily as much glutamate as in an MSG-enhanced chicken chow mein)?

Their answer is that the industrial fermentation process introduces contaminants. This is possible, of course, but it ignores the fact that whole swaths of the planet - including East Asia, where I live - do not have any problem with MSG. Here in Thailand, the phong chu rot sits on the table with the fish sauce and the chilli powder where you would have the salt and pepper.

Some of the names MSG goes under

monopotassium glutamate
glutavene
glutacyl
glutamic acid
autolyzed yeast extract
calcium caseinate
sodium caseinate
E621 (E620-625 are all glutamates)
Ajinomoto, Ac'cent
Gourmet Powder

The following may also contain MSG natural flavours or seasonings
natural beef or chicken flavouring
hydrolyzed milk or plant protein
textured protein
seasonings
soy sauce
bouillon
broth
spices

Free glutamate content of foods (mg per 100g) roquefort cheese 1280
parmesan cheese 1200
soy sauce 1090
walnuts 658
fresh tomato juice 260
grape juice 258
peas 200
mushrooms 180
broccoli 176
tomatoes 140
mushrooms 140
oysters 137
corn 130
potatoes 102
chicken 44
mackerel 36
beef 33
eggs 23
human milk 22

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...rink.features3

[Manimal]

msg makes me see things that aren't real. plus i can't sleep. usually it's quiet scary. which is just another reason not to eat chinese (junk) food

[Zero]

Here's some extracts from an article on MSG I found interesting

Pretty interesting stuff there, I have often wondered about this, since it is so widely utilised in East Asia. One has to wonder if it isn't somewhat psychosomatic, especially since foods that contain larger amounts of MSG are often junky type foods that may not make you feel so good anyway.

I've heard several people blame MSG for feeling sleepy after eating at a chinese buffet, however I think it was more likely plausible that it was eating too much that made them somnolent.

[Gorilla]

i don't avoid MSG completely but i know i'm quite sensitive to it and too much can make me ill. i don't go in for the scare stories, i just know from personal experience. as a child i always vomited after eating Chinese food and my parents had no idea why. i've since found out that food from Chinese restaurants that use a lot of MSG gives me terrible chest pain and can still make me sick in extreme cases. it's a shame because in small doses it makes the food taste fantastic.

[shiny2008]

I'm from China, I avoid MSG, but yes, most people here OK with it, they use very very less at cooking, and now many people use not proper MSG, and some never can take MSG-just like me, so when I ate outside, I asked them do NOT put MSG...

[RubyDuby]

Risker- are those quotes from the wikipedia article you linked?
because the link now goes to a deleted article.

The first person who responded to this post (I don't like MSG, it can bring me light-headed.) is from China. The article states that most Asians have no fear of msg, but Shiny even gave us advice on how to feel better when msg makes ya feel uncomfortable.

I remember going to a chinese restaurant once and an asian girl in the elevator warned us to request no msg...

I do avoid it. If there's no other option I will buy it (in vege bullion or whatever).
It doesn't seem to have an effect on me.

[sandra]

It doesn't seem to have any effect on me either. I don't see any harm in it being in some foods and like anything else if you find you are sensitive to it then you can avoid it.

[harpy]

I haven't noticed any effects from it myself. Even though it occurs naturally I suppose it's possible that shovelling it on in large quantities might cause a reaction in some people?

(And some people do shovel it on in large quantities judging by a chap I used to share a house with who had lived in SE Asia and kept a large jar of it. I once put it on my breakfast cereal by mistake but that's another story )

[Tigerlily]

I don't avoid it and I don't get a reaction from it.

[cobweb]

so is MSG - for example found in chinese foods, actually the same as the glutamate that naturally occurs in potatoes and human milk? (which are not fermented)

[Risker]

Risker- are those quotes from the wikipedia article you linked?
because the link now goes to a deleted article.

No, it's from this Guardian article, there's more of it but it's quite long - http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...rink.features3

I've fixed the link in the first post now.

[Risker]

so is MSG - for example found in chinese foods, actually the same as the glutamate that naturally occurs in potatoes and human milk? (which are not fermented)

Pretty much, apart from it's been mixed with salt.

I'd like to try some MSG to see what it tastes like when added to my own food and to see if I notice any sensitivities to it myself.. It's a shame you can't buy it in supermarkets here, I have nowhere near by to get it.

[Tigerlily]

You might be able to get in an Asian food store. Are there any near you?

[Mr Flibble]

MSG makes things taste nice

Not personally noticed any problems with it.

[Animosity]

I think a lot of the reason why people get so 'sick' from MSG is because of all the negative press surronding it. The mind is extremely powerful and if you keep telling yourself over and over again that something will make you sick-- it will. Why do you think vegans that eat even a miniscule amount of animal product, Not enough for any ill effects will end up feeling sick? Because they're mind has been convinced it's poison. Most people will say they feel sick after eating chinese food because of the MSG but they never even think about the fact that loads of other things they eat all the time are loaded with it as well. Why don't those things make them sick if MSG is so bad? Because they associate chinese food with MSG and not other foods, Bringing me back to the issue of the power of the mind.

Don't get me wrong, Too much MSG might well make you ill, Just as with anything else. but I don't belive that all of the cases or even half of this "MSG sickness" are actually caused by the MSG. or at least not entirely caused by it.

[cobweb]

hmm, well i'm prepared to rethink the MSG thing but chinese type food does give me a headache - i'm wondering if it's the high salt level?

[RubyDuby]

or too much oil? that sometimes makes me nauseous/queasy.


but i wonder where the idea came from if it has no ill effects?? Maybe it is sort of an allergen for some ppl. I tend to agree with sandra's post above.

[Gorilla]

I think a lot of the reason why people get so 'sick' from MSG is because of all the negative press surronding it. The mind is extremely powerful and if you keep telling yourself over and over again that something will make you sick-- it will.

that may be true for some people, but it used to make me vomit before i'd ever even heard of MSG, so i know it's not psychosomatic for me.

[BlackCats]

I didn't ever really know what people meant when they talked about MSG causing ill effects but I ate recently at one of the veggie Chinese places in Soho and I felt really sick and dizzy afterwards and so did the person I was with (although to be fair he was really hungover also.) I hadn't eaten Chinese food for a while though so maybe that might have been a factor.

[Risker]

^ It wasn't the one featured on rogue restaurants recently was it?

[BlackCats]

It was Chi noodle bar. Actually I just realised it's not even in Soho is it, I'm just so used to eating vegan food in Soho. Covent Garden I meant.

[Zero]

I guess it's just another one of those things that if you have a reaction to, it's best to avoid

[Marrers]

I didn't ever really know what people meant when they talked about MSG causing ill effects but I ate recently at one of the veggie Chinese places . . .

Yeah, I never thought much of it before either but I have noticed every time I eat at one of the chinese buffets my saliva gets really gooey straight afterwards and I get phlegm in the back of my throat for a while. No idea what causes it but have recently wondered if it is MSG.

[Fuhzy]

Without MSG we wouldn't have other amazing things like Ramen!


Oh wait....




:S

[Zero]

Without MSG we wouldn't have other amazing things like Ramen!


Oh wait....




:S

Haha Fuhzy, Ramen noodles...... I haven't eaten those in a long time! Top Ramen from King Soopers still 15 cents a pack?

[sandra]

^ It wasn't the one featured on rogue restaurants recently was it?

Talking about rogue restaurants............one of the men working 'undercover' in the restaurant looked very like you Risker...........was it you?

(Sorry this has nothing to do with MSG )

[shiny2008]

or too much oil? that sometimes makes me nauseous/queasy.


but i wonder where the idea came from if it has no ill effects?? Maybe it is sort of an allergen for some ppl. I tend to agree with sandra's post above.

RubyDuby

Yea, the oil could be one reason, not just too much, the bad thing is some restaurant use the used oil which is not good and might taste strange, but it's not easy to handle with vegetables, so they use good oil for vegetables...-I hope so.

[cedarblue]

I'd like to try some MSG to see what it tastes like when added to my own food and to see if I notice any sensitivities to it myself.. It's a shame you can't buy it in supermarkets here, I have nowhere near by to get it.

it's in asian shops. if you can't find any, i could send you a packet from my local shop? let me know.

[Risker]

Thanks No asian shops around here but I found out you can get 400g tubs of it from ebay for £4 so I'm going to try that.

[Pob]

Can't you just use shedloads of soy sauce or yeast extract for the same effect?

I don't avoid msg, but I prefer it to be the more natural versions from soy sauce or yeast extract, than the white powder varieties.

[snivelingchild]

I avoid it like the plague since it's linked to migraines and I have enough of those. Besides, I sort of figure, if it does have so many bad side effects on other people, do I really need to chance it since it hasn't been proven to be bad for everyone?