vegan vs. local?

[petunia]

Hello all.

I have been thinking about the topic of local food a lot lately. Obviously, it is best to purchase and consume as much food grown in the area you live. Some reasons for this include: being in touch with how your food is produced, reducing carbon emissions, supporting your local economy, etc.

I live in Vancouver, British Columbia where the climate is mild but VERY, very rainy. It is not a very good climate for producing food. I'm sure everyone is familar with the book "100 mile diet" by Alisa Smith and JB Mackinnon... They are from Vancouver and I believe they were vegan (or maybe just veg) before beginning this project.

Anyway, while eating with 100 miles, they ate a great deal of potatoes, cheese, eggs (they also went to farms and found out how the animals were treated and purchased mainly from farms and farmers markets because they felt it important to see how their food was produced), what local vegtables there was available, fish and honey instead of sugar.

Now, I am a commited vegan, but sometimes I do wonder whether it is truely better for the environment, myself, my community, and maybe even animals, to be vegan, or to eat locally? An example of this is honey: (I know this is quite unvegan but I admit I care less about bees than about say, a cow) If you were to purchase honey that was produced 10 miles away from your home, it is surely better than to purchase sugar that was produced on the other side of the world by people living in inhuman conditions, etc,etc.

Obviously most people are quite removed from their food these days; they dont know how its produced, who grows it, etc. If there was no possibility of shipping food half way around the world (or even from california to here), it would be very difficult for me, in Vancouver, to be vegan. I wonder if that says something about whether or not its ethical to be vegan and eat food from far away, considering our current environmental and social state.

Please share your thoughts. Thank you.

[bradders]

personally I would still rather avoid using anything that came from animals, I would continue to use products from distance but try to campaign for better use of the locale, if bees can survive then you can grow sugar beet which means you don't need to exploit the bees.
that's one example

[Sarabi]

Why can't you do both? Both are vital to the survival of veganism. Supporting mass markets is generally supporting the same system that denies veganism. So either way, if you leave out one, you may be denying both in a sense.

[Ruin]

I dunno... It depends on what's around you I guess.
I'm in Queensland, Australia and we have lots and lots and lots of sugar cane.

[journey]

I agree with doing both. Vegan is my first consideration with food. Then, as long as it's vegan, I try to buy as much as I possibly can locally.

This also includes cutting way down on processed foods, because that's where each ingredient has travelled back and forth across the country, not to mention the product itself. Also, processed foods are less healthy and I'm getting so I just don't trust that they didn't sneak some bone char or something in somewhere that they're not required to list on the label.

I can't get everything locally, but do what I can - started making my own yogurt, but buy a container of commercial yogurt for starter every so often, things like that. But the first consideration is always that the product has to be vegan.

[petunia]

hmmmm... interesting... thanks guys.

[treaclemine]

hmmmm... interesting... thanks guys.

Things taken from animals can have a huge environmental impact - particularly animals which are ruminants, such as cows. That's because the animals 'belch' methane, which is 20 times more powerful for global warming than carbon dioxide.

However, tomatoes grown in a heated greenhouse can have as large a global warming impact per kilogramme as the bodies of cows. Also, salads transported by air freight have a huge environmental impact.

As a rule of thumb, the best bet is local and seasonal and plant-based food, grown in the open air.

[Johnstuff]

Local Honey or imported sugar?

I think when bee's honey is taken from them it is replaced with (imported) sugar for the bees to eat.

If getting sugar was particularly bad for the environment then I think it'd be better to just learn to live without sweeteners. Get your sugar from fruit grown locally instead.

[Zero]

My main reason for being vegan is the ethical argument with regard to animals, environment and health are kind of secondary. To me nothing stands up as well for veganism as the ethical argument. As you prove above Petunia, you can talk yourself around the environmental reasons for being vegan.

I look at environmental issues almost separate from being vegan. I try to buy my food locally and seasonally where it is possible and practical and recycle etc. The environmental choices that I make in my daily life don't seem to have a whole lot to do with being vegan, because frankly I don't even consider animal products as food.

(I know this is quite unvegan but I admit I care less about bees than about say, a cow) If you were to purchase honey that was produced 10 miles away from your home, it is surely better than to purchase sugar that was produced on the other side of the world by people living in inhuman conditions, etc,etc.

Personally I care about Bees, Cows and Humans in the same way, I don't want my actions to result in harm to any of them so I wouldn't want to consume cow's milk or honey as this would cause harm.

Obviously most people are quite removed from their food these days; they dont know how its produced, who grows it, etc. If there was no possibility of shipping food half way around the world (or even from california to here), it would be very difficult for me, in Vancouver, to be vegan. I wonder if that says something about whether or not its ethical to be vegan and eat food from far away, considering our current environmental and social state.

You are right about this, we are very disconnected from our food, where it comes from and how it is produced. I cannot say that all the products I buy are free of corporations exploiting human workers but I do look into this and buy fair trade as fair as possible, the system is a mess in this regard and it needs to be fixed, this is capitalism

[seamus]

was it Al Gore who said that vegitarianism is more eco sound than eating local or something like that?

[Buddha Belly]

The animal that has been slaughtered may of been local but in reality most animal feed is shipped in 100's of miles to feed them up. There is very few animals grazing naturally now. The way farmers are forced to work their land it is unsustainable for local eating to be utilised by even medium sized communities. one or two families are able to enjoy this lifestyle but it is impractical to a high percentage of the population of most western countries. There are areas of the UK that this is impossible, i lived in Cumbria for a while and to shop locally would mean a predominate sheep based diet. The UK's population is too high now for the land to produce enough for those that live here. There is only a small amount of land that is suitable for producing high yields year after year.

Get an allotment or turn some of the garden over to veg, the impact you make on the earth will be dropped significantly.

[DiaShel]

Get an allotment

A what?

[Risker]

^ It's a bit of land that the local council let you use for a small amount of money to grow food on.

[DiaShel]

Oh, I don't think they do that here. At least I've never heard of such a thing

[jodyk]

I think this is a great topic, thanks Petunia. I recently read "Animal Vegetable Mineral" by Barbara Kingsolver, and it did make me think a lot about food miles vs animal free. I am vegan for ethical reasons, which to me is equally environment and fairness to other beings, but sometimes I think my ethics are pretty skewed when I don't even know how far my quinoa has travelled and I'll buy non fair trade chocolate if there's no choice, yet I wouldn't buy milk chocolate ever - I'd just go without. I am really just adding my two cents of agreement to what's been said. I want to eat justly in all areas, but I think it is easier in some than others. Veganism is clear: just don't eat things to do with animals. Food miles and fair trade are more fuzzy to me - how far is too far, how unfair is too unfair. I also think that veganism is a choice made from privilege. I'd be embarrassed to explain to a Ugandan child soldier why they shouldn't consume animal products. None of this is me slagging veganism. I just wanted to express some of these things in a context where others might understand - normally the only "discussions" I get to have about veganism are me explaining that I really do get enough to eat

[bradders]

Oh, I don't think they do that here. At least I've never heard of such a thing

I know they have something like it in NYC

[harpy]

I think I've read about "community gardens" in some parts of the USA which would perhaps amount to the same thing?

Actually not all allotments in the UK are council-run; a couple of friends of mine have/had allotments that were rented from some kind of private trust.

[dean bracher]

An interesting question, but ethics and morally are boundless and being vegan saves greatly on carbon emissions by not consuming methane producing cows, sheep, pigs and other farmed animals. As for honey, bees still are farmed and the ethics involved are the same as for cows. Sugar is a wasted subtance with no calorie value that causes addiction and lots of land that could be better used for crops of wheat, grains and nuts. While its not a perfect world, being vegan goes along way towards making it one and not everyone could live in an iddlic way as the people you have mentioned. That said, you can buy local as much as possible while being vegan and still have a much less carbon footprint as your meat-eater who usually will not care about any of these issues that you do. Stay vegan, its better for life and the planet.

[Risker]

Sugar is a wasted subtance with no calorie value that causes addiction and lots of land that could be better used for crops of wheat, grains and nuts.

Sugar has 390 Calories per 100g. It's only better used for wheat, grains and nuts if that's what you want to eat, I enjoy having sweets and like eating for enjoyment not just nutrition - that would be boring.

[bradders]

Sugar has 390 Calories per 100g. It's only better used for wheat, grains and nuts if that's what you want to eat, I enjoy having sweets and like eating for enjoyment not just nutrition - that would be boring.

amen to that

[Zero]

was it Al Gore who said that vegitarianism is more eco sound than eating local or something like that?

As far as I know he completely ignores anything to do with this issue, yet another idiot flying around the world "educating" people about global warming yet contributing to the one of the top causes of it.

[dean bracher]

Sugar has 390 Calories per 100g. It's only better used for wheat, grains and nuts if that's what you want to eat, I enjoy having sweets and like eating for enjoyment not just nutrition - that would be boring.

I'm a vegan who loves the taste of food rather than the nuritional value..Any good cook would make something tasty with any ingredient and sometimes i eat cake, i like cake for it tastes good. Did anyone think that you can be a local vegan without those plane journeys, but where animals are used for food they have to be fed transported food.
I wonder if taste alone would be my consideration when faced with animal torture and abuse, i guess vegans don't have all the answers after all, shame really has i thought they did. Thats why we discuss these issues or do we just waste time talking rather than doing.

[Roxy]

As far as I know he completely ignores anything to do with this issue, yet another idiot flying around the world "educating" people about global warming yet contributing to the one of the top causes of it.

I know right. Mr Beefy Rancher himself.

[Risker]

Thats why we discuss these issues or do we just waste time talking rather than doing.

Sorry, I don't get your point, you made a statement basically stating that sugar was bad and worthless, I disagreed, that is discussing no?

[sandra]

If eating locally produced food meant I wasn't vegan then I wouldn't eat locally produced food.
To be honest I don't really care that much about the environment, but I do care about the torture and murder of animals, and that includes bees!

[Kosherbean]

My feelings are this:

I don't want to eat an animal or anything that comes from an animal like its eggs, honey or milk. Eggs are baby animals, as far as honey- I don't produce it like a bee for food, I don't need it (it's just sugar!) and I only drank my mother's milk. I don't need it anymore. Doesn't matter if the eggs or cheese or milk are laid or produced in my own backyard, I instinctively gravitate toward plants and fruits, nuts and grains for food.
As far as where I buy, the smaller distance it is from me, the shorter time it's had to rot or have to be frozen or have preservatives plugged in it....I just like it from the tree and the ground so I DO TRY and make the effort to buy local, as much as I can. If that's not possible, then I don't let myself fret about it that much.

[horselesspaul]

If eating locally produced food meant I wasn't vegan then I wouldn't eat locally produced food.
To be honest I don't really care that much about the environment, but I do care about the torture and murder of animals, and that includes bees!

My feelings are similar. I am a "very low level" consumer in UK terms, I re-cycle and re-use as much as is practical. My house is built from sustainable resources and requires minimal heating. We grow veg here.
I find it odd that environmentalism with all it's wooly headed and factually inaccurate possibility is so often intertwined with veganism. I am only interested in minimising the detrimental effects to my fellow beings of my chosen lifestyle as much as is practical and desirable. I could do more, of course, but probably won't.
Bees are kewl.

I don't buy imported fruit and veg either. Seasonal and UK grown only for my and BassPixie.

[twinkle]

For the honey question, if I was given a choice, at gunpoint, between purchasing locally produced honey from a small producer, or sugar from an ethically suspect plantation thousands of miles away, I would purchase the honey but it's not something that in practice is likely to happen.

Aside from the fact that a lot of sugar is produced in the UK, where I live (which I buy if I'm going for the refined stuff) I know there are other things I could use instead of imported sugar if I wanted to sweeten things.

Isn't Canada famous for maple syrup? Do apples grow in your climate, because I've seen many recipes using apple sauce as a sweetener.

I'm a bit slack with the local produce thing. I do try when I remember but don't always do as much as I could. I think if it became as important an issue to me as veganism is, I would move locations if I couldn't sustain a vegan, local produce diet where I was.

[petunia]

I think this is a great topic, thanks Petunia. I recently read "Animal Vegetable Mineral" by Barbara Kingsolver, and it did make me think a lot about food miles vs animal free. I am vegan for ethical reasons, which to me is equally environment and fairness to other beings, but sometimes I think my ethics are pretty skewed when I don't even know how far my quinoa has travelled and I'll buy non fair trade chocolate if there's no choice, yet I wouldn't buy milk chocolate ever - I'd just go without. I am really just adding my two cents of agreement to what's been said. I want to eat justly in all areas, but I think it is easier in some than others. Veganism is clear: just don't eat things to do with animals. Food miles and fair trade are more fuzzy to me - how far is too far, how unfair is too unfair. I also think that veganism is a choice made from privilege. I'd be embarrassed to explain to a Ugandan child soldier why they shouldn't consume animal products. None of this is me slagging veganism. I just wanted to express some of these things in a context where others might understand - normally the only "discussions" I get to have about veganism are me explaining that I really do get enough to eat

yes, this is exactly how i feel. :smile:

i would never not be vegan, but this is an interesting issue that deserves some examination.