We are clever little vegans....

[squigaletta]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6180753.stm

anyone else see this? Even though it's not a causal link of veg*nism increasing IQ it's pretty cool that we are making the intelligent choice. I mean we knew that all ready of course! but a nice article nonetheless I thought.

[Buddha Belly]

If vegetarians have a higher IQ, it stands to reason vegans go a bit further, hence we are all genius'.

It's probably nothing more than anyone who thinks about meat will see that it is not logical to eat another creature.

This is one of those threads that can easily descend into omni-bashing, class war and elitism. Hee hee hee

[bradders]

as one with a ridiculously high IQ i find this sort of thing incredibly elitist and just the sort of bourgeois thinking I've come to expect

LOL - that what you thinking of buddha?

[Agatha]

i suspect that veg*ns have a higher IQ on average (where the mean average is 100) than the general population. Most of the veg*ns i know were brought up eating omnivorous diets and questioned the ethics. that self-reflection and questioning rather than accepting the status quo is, i think, a sign of an above average IQ

[Fuhzy]

"...366 of the participants said they were vegetarian - although more than 100 reported eating either fish or chicken.."

[aussievego]

I think that the average vegan will definitely have a higher IQ than the average meat eater, but it's a cause and effect issue. Are vegans smarter because of a vegan diet, or do vegans become vegan because they are smarter? A vegan diet is better for your overall health so it stands to reason that your brain function would be improved, but I suspect that vegans being smarter has more to do with intelligent people choosing to be vegan for ethical issues.

[bradders]

The study suggests that the become veg because they have a higher iq than others. But a diet rich in complex carbs and starched along with a knowledge about that which you are eating is bound to increase this further still.

[Quantum Mechanic]

One assumption that I must challenge is that IQ represents intelligence - it represents one very narrow idea of a specific intelligence, and how to test for that. For me, other testing methods would've been more appropriate, but even then I don't think the idea of IQ as representing a one-dimensional intelligence is a valid concept.

If it correlates to anything maybe it would correlate to academic achievement, and a high norm IQ may correlate to a higher salary (I think this has been shown). I feel I must say this, because it is I who must live with the assumptions, plus many other people I have known and people I haven't known, when people offhandedly think that IQ means intelligence, when really it means specific verbal and spatial abilities, tested through certain methods (which vary based on the tests, but most depend on language skills even for "non-verbal" tests).

[bradders]

All true. In my learning difficulties assesment I was found to have a very high IQ but that other issues such as co-ordination, working memory, visual processing skills etc were very poor. The one thing that this sort of thing focusses on is how quickly you can get and process information and then put it to use. You can still achieve a PHD with an IQ of 80 and a severe learning difficulties, just you might have to put more time in and devise stategies to overcome them. On the other hand you could be the village idiot and have a high IQ.

[harpy]

One assumption that I must challenge is that IQ represents intelligence - it represents one very narrow idea of a specific intelligence, and how to test for that.

I agree with you there - also from what I've read it's very likely that IQ tests are culturally biased so this finding may partly reflect the demographics of veg*nism, which we have discussed before. (Veg*ns are often, though not invariably, Caucasian and middle class, and IQ tests may favour that group.)

Still, I imagine most of us would agree that the more intelligent you are, the more likely you are to be vegan

[squigaletta]

one of my favorite psych (my subject) quotes is "IQ is simply that which is measure by IQ tests". Its such a flawed concept it's ridiculous, has anyone read the bell curve? It's this crazy book that claims that IQ is genetic and therefore groups who perform less well on IQ tests are genetically determined to be less intelligent. this means that black people and women are supposedly by definition less intellgent than the white male as it is this demographic IQ tests are designed by and for. Though in recent years there has been some progress with spearate intelligences being identified, such as creative intelligence and social intelligence etc. At least the scientific community is getting there, even if this hasn't filtered down to the public yet who still set so much store by the almost arbitrarily allocated IQ.

sorry for the rant but IQ was one of my fave topics last year for books like the bell curve which just get it sooooo wrong!

[Manzana]

i bet it was white men that designed the IQ test in any case... a bit biased as usual!

[Risker]

^ A bit biased as usual?

Sorry but this sounds a bit racist.

[squigaletta]

a bit sexist too

but yeh they were designed by white males and yes they were very biased, but I shan't comment as to whether this is usual for white males or not

[Quantum Mechanic]

All true. In my learning difficulties assesment I was found to have a very high IQ but that other issues such as co-ordination, working memory, visual processing skills etc were very poor. The one thing that this sort of thing focusses on is how quickly you can get and process information and then put it to use. You can still achieve a PHD with an IQ of 80 and a severe learning difficulties, just you might have to put more time in and devise stategies to overcome them. On the other hand you could be the village idiot and have a high IQ.

Yeah, my last tested IQ average was 85 and I'm majoring in physics, reputation for doing well academically and teaching myself differential calculus at age 10. Ironically it was my verbal IQ that was a standard deviation higher than performance, even though I'm about 20% non-verbal.

[harpy]

Perhaps Manzana just meant that it would have been better to have had the tests designed by a committee of people representing both genders and various cultures, which it would IMO. They should try that.

I did read once about an "IQ test" that someone designed with a deliberate bias towards (I think) African American culture, and sure enough African Americans did much better in that than everyone else did.

[bradders]

one of the things that gets me is that the mean IQ in all areas is supposed to be 100 points. What happens by the end of the year before the testing reviews is that averages reach above 100 points so they get harder and harder every year co compensate.

[Manzana]

a bit sexist too

but yeh they were designed by white males and yes they were very biased, but I shan't comment as to whether this is usual for white males or not

Risker, squigaletta,

Where exactly does my post infer that this is usual for white males ONLY?

We are all biased and unfortunately if only/mainly a cross section of the population (whether this refers to gender/age/race/economic or social background) designs something, it is USUALLY (if not almost certainly) going to be biased.

I don't see any racism or sexism inferred anywhere.

EDIT: Just for the record, i mentioned white males designed the test because they seemed to achieve the higher scores in the article which seems odd if it is an unbiased test unless any of you do think that white males are normally "more intelligent" than women or men from other races...

[kriz]

It's sad that so many people in general put so much meaning into IQ scores when it doesn't measure the full spectrum of a person's intelligence - no test ever will anyway, but PARTICULARLY not this one. If IQ test didn't have so much importance as it obviously has in certain places (schools, jobs, in research etc.) and it's limitations would be highly emphasized, I wouldn't find it so troubling.

Thank you Bradders and Quantum Mechanic for making a point that two perfectly intelligent people can have very different results on an IQ test. Although I would never want to officially test myself (since I obviously don't believe in it), I have done a few on my own with varying results. I also found that after I had done a few I got much better at it.... go figure. I generally did better at midnight too.

[squigaletta]

sorry my comment was only meant in jest. i didn't think you're post was in the least bit racist or sexist, the tests are biased, and this bias is towards white men. I am sorry if I did not convey my humorous sentiments adequately, I think in future I will add the odd lolz lololo etc

[kriz]

sorry my comment was only meant in jest. i didn't think you're post was in the least bit racist or sexist, the tests are biased, and this bias is towards white men. I am sorry if I did not convey my humorous sentiments adequately, I think in future I will add the odd lolz lololo etc

I totally understand, Squigaletta, I just like to discuss this issue in general and I got a little carried away here.:smile: I'm sure you didn't intend it to be taken too seriously as we vegans are intelligent enough to know that IQ is not all that.

[Stu]

If IQ test didn't have so much importance as it obviously has in certain places (schools, jobs, in research etc.)... I wouldn't find it so troubling.

Does it? Have you ever completed an IQ test when applying for a job / school? I wouldn't waste my time with such an establishment.

[bradders]

B&Q and Asda both (they use an IQ variant and a Stamford variant to profile prospective staff) or at least they have when I've applied for work there

[kriz]

Does it? Have you ever completed an IQ test when applying for a job / school? I wouldn't waste my time with such an establishment.

No, I haven't personally, but some of my friends have - one when in the military and the other for a job. Yuck, that would make me want to RUN!

[bradders]

Problem is though that often you have no choice if you need the work you need the work.

[kriz]

That's true, bradders, but to me it would feel intrusive. Another one is when a company requires a degree not related to the job at all, I find it discriminatory. But that's another subject...

[bradders]

indeed on a rather depressing note we're all slaves now. But that belinda on another thread I think

[exec]

So what comes first? One has higher IQ and thus got into vegetarianism OR one gets into vegetarianism, and then one's IQ gets higher? Are there relations anyway?

[Chritar]

just throwing this out there. the fact that everyone here is looking into this iq test a whole lot is showing that we are all atleast smart/er, i dont want to say smarter than the average bear, but, if i wasnt vegan right now, i would probly be just as smart, unless someday we can physically measure all the realms of intelligence.

though, i dont know too many people that would dissect this so much though, except a couple of my close omni friends, which the others get frustrated if a topic such as this came up in conversation. i do however have much more invigorating conversations with my vegan friends, not to say only them, but i do tend to.

[bradders]

i do however have much more invigorating conversations with my vegan friends, not to say only them, but i do tend to.

I'd go along with that, though some pretty stupid things are often said on all sides lol

[Chritar]

hahahaha yep ^

[emzy1985]

I don't think we are any more intelligent than anyone else........

[squigaletta]

I think going against the norm can often require greater intelligence. and i also think viewing meat as an animal rather than a food and taking the more compassionate ethical stance also requires a little more thought and might then require a bit more intelligence. But i don't think that means that all veg*ns are smart by definition.

[emzy1985]

I know quite a few vegans. Many who are AR and many who are not. To be honest their intelligence reflects that of society. Some are thick as shit and others are fucking geniuses. (Woo look at me and my political correctness!!!! ) I think however what we do have is an ability to question, which considering some of the people I know requires nothing more than a single brain cell. Or maybe it is how they were brought up and they have never questioned what parents have told them. Either way from my personal experience of around 50 vegans (look at me being all scientific and shit) we are no more clever than anyone else. Although sometimes I feel alot more intelligent than people at work when they ask if I eat goats cheese. **sigh**

Btw how do you measure intelligence? I can't read numbers so I would fail an IQ test.....yet I am far from stupid!!! :P