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Thread: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

  1. #1

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    Default Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Sorry if this question has already been posted. In case please
    let me know where or if it's not appropriate.

    I wonder if you came up with a sort of list of the main reasons
    why omnivores (or vegetarians) don't turn vegan sooner or ever.

    I just joined the group of discussions here, the "vegans and non-vegans" so maybe
    that's the most appropriate forum where to ask this?

    Anyway, I'm being very careful putting this question here cause
    I just posted a reply in an Italian vegan forum to a girl who was wondering why knowledge of animal suffering isn't enough for people to change,
    and my reply
    got erased straight away and when i asked why, they deleted
    my question too, and then
    they just said it was antivegan to list reasons people dont become vegans and they got VERY mad and I was completely bewildered and when I tried to ask what exactly was wrong
    with trying to understand the reasons (call them excuses if you will)
    why people take so long to cHANGE, I noticed i could no longer
    reply cause they had banned me from the forum...

    I am quite shocked.

    i had joined a week ago or so and so far I had done nothing but
    exchanging useful information with other vegan teachers on where
    to get some good material to use with our kids.

    I'm quite an activist and I already turned a considerable number of people into vegetarians or they cut their intake of milk and meat a LOT.

    I really hope not all vegans are that proud as to not even
    want to DISCUSS such an important question .

    I think understanding exactly why the overwhelming majority of people are still meat eaters is crucial , especially for activists.

    I'm really worried to see that they wouldn't even start this discussion.

    Only 0.5% of people are vegans in the USA and other European countries.
    Clearly they all have reasons.
    we can easily call those reasons "excuses" and i think I'd agree that
    80% of them are excuses, but I'm trying to get into their shoes before
    i'm so quick on judging them.

    And once I could understand those reasons, i wouldn't justify them of course, but i would try my best to focus my activism in directions
    aimed at removing those reasons, one by one.

    I dont know..
    i had a really bad vibe from what happened today in that forum..
    I'm afraid they don't do animals a favour by putting themselves
    on a pedistal and judging people who are exactly like they were too
    until they turned vegans.

    I felt a lack of humility if you know what i mean..
    anyway, sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.
    Please dont ban me too!!

    If you think i'm very wrong, just pls help me understand.


    bye
    Last edited by vegetarian_cat; Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:17 PM. Reason: a typo could have been confusing (i had written unless instead of until)

  2. #2
    burl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    One word: cheese.
    pro-vegetable

  3. #3

    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    One major thing is change of habit. This has multiple components. There is the superficial component, which is usually (almost always) but not always present ("but I like the taste of it and don't want to switch to something new"), but there are also a lot of other components to switching habits. For instance, while we know that nutritionally it's not hard to get the requirements met as a vegan (and for me I find it easier than when I was omni), the vast, vast majority of us grew up with food pyramids and/or meal plans that centered around meat = protein, dairy = calcium, etc.

    And so planning meals, and making a balanced diet, while not harder once you get used to it, you have to learn it all over, since nobody taught you the "vegan food pyramid of nutrition" when growing up. Fortunately when I got to college, there was a vegan food line option, and so I got to see that it was actually quite within my reach to sustain myself on the food there (well, on most days - there was one night where they served salad for dinner, which was pretty silly since there already is a salad bar). I never thought that a vegetarian or vegan would live off sticks and sprouts, but it was nice to see the foods on display every night, and that you can fill yourself up on yummy foods (well, on most nights).

    Also, when I was younger and really wanted to be vegetarian, after a little while my parents thought it was too difficult and relied on expensive prepackaged faux meats like Morningstar to be nutritionally balanced. Basically, it was that problem that a lot of people who were ex-veg encountered - just leaving out the old item and not having a balanced vegan/vegetarian diet. The Internet would've helped at this point, too, as I was really adamant at this point that I didn't want to go back to eating meat but eventually I did somehow. I don't think I'd even heard the word vegan then, and my dad's only exposure was some guy on the radio deriding vegans as being unrealistic weirdos or terrorists or something.

    Also, we are taught subtly throughout our lives that non-human animals are to be treated lesser than us. Whether it's the language of "pet owners" or in the expectation that cows and chickens and sheep for instance exist for the purpose of giving humans their lives, milk, eggs, and wool. Rarely is it mentioned that these are not given by consent, but taken, and often after the animals in question have been treated horrendously.

    But most of us have grown up with these attitudes ingrained, and so even knowing how the animals are treated, if one hasn't yet questioned these underlying attitudes thoroughly enough, then one may well not react with the horror that we are prone to upon learning these things. I believe it is key for vegan activism to be not only about education of what happens to other animals, but also to get people to more thoroughly question these attitudes about the purposes and lives of non-humans.
    Last edited by Quantum Mechanic; Jan 23rd, 2009 at 01:21 AM. Reason: paragrpah spacing

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    I think we have to remember that for a lot of people eating meat is a habit they may have been culturing for many years, and that is a difficult thing to break. This is especially so if they are poorly informed or have only had ill-represented experience of vegans, which I think a lot of people do unfortunately . Possibly if they have met the Italians you mentioned.

    Or possibly they are just well into cheese

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    My typing's way too slow!

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    I believe one of the main reasons people don't become vegan is ignorance and the want to stay ignorant so they don't have to know where food comes from. I can partially excuse people for their ignorance, because to a large extent it may not be their fault. Parents, the government, USDA, school lunch programs and lack of nutrition education are all keeping the general public away from the latest research on nutrition, which is proving over and over again that a vegan diet is the best thing you can do for yourself, animals, and the environment. I believe that given the truth, there are a lot more intelligent caring people out there who would become vegan.

    There are also people who realize they are ignorant, but care to do nothing about it because they don't want to find out the truth. This is completely inexcusable.

    There are also a lot of silly socially created stigmas against veganism. For example how many times have you heard that eating meat is manly.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Quote m00se View Post
    I believe one of the main reasons people don't become vegan is ignorance and the want to stay ignorant

    ...

    There are also people who realize they are ignorant, but care to do nothing about it because they don't want to find out the truth. This is completely inexcusable.
    I agree with this point that you mean, but also I should point out that there are points in between. Oftentimes there are people who are in transition (mentally), or who later will consider veganism and then become vegan, and so while they may not be ignorant of the facts, and may have made a number of the comments in the "silly things said by omnis" thread, that in fact what looks like someone being merely willfully ignorant often is the start of the process of questioning things.

    I myself have said a number of the "classic omni remarks" - not as retorts or insults or as a way to make vegetarianism look silly, but because I had questions and perceptions I had yet to reconcile, and my own personal conflicts were construed as being willfully ignorant or attacks on vegetarianism, due to many times very similar words being used in this way, though with different tone. That's one reason why, if someone says something silly about veganism that I won't take it seriously unless it's downright insulting, but rather educate.
    Last edited by Quantum Mechanic; Jan 23rd, 2009 at 07:36 AM. Reason: parapgrah spacing

  8. #8
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    It's human nature now to be lazy and it is easier to be an omni/ veggie

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Thank you all for sharing this.

    So, I think we can learn a LOT from understanding these things.

    I'll start taking notes.

    My personal experience is that people don't have the time and energy to dedicate to the transition.

    As someone here said, eve if it's not half as hard as people think, at the beginning it does take a bit of "effort" to stop eating as you used to and get informed.

    I'll post it as a different thread, but in terms of hours I think it's safe to say
    (?) that it would take at least a good hour (i think it took me about 15) to
    learn how to get all the proper nutrients, where to go shopping for new ingredients, what recipes to make and how to veganize old one and just learning about the lives of factory farm animals and even more time if you want to find support around you
    or go active.

    So... let's say my 15 hours were too many and 3 would suffice.
    (though i doubt that would include the hours spent trying out new recipes
    and cooking in general)
    Still..
    Not everyone has 3 hours to spare plus the cooking and shopping .

    Anyway, that's just my thought.
    I think it's VERY important we stress that once you make the transition,
    it's easy to be vegan or even easier to be a vegetarian, but maybe
    we have to work on making such a transition even easier.

    For instance, I live in a small town in a non vegan-friendly country.
    To even understand where I could go find soy cream and egg substitutes took me
    a few good days...
    Also, in order to make myself a list of the actual food I needed daily to
    get a proper intake of iron, protein and calcium, that took some more hours.
    I have some intolerances, so i had to cross-reference a couple of lists in order
    to find what was vegan, what was not trigging my migraines, and what was not
    something I'm intolerant too.

    Then once I found all that, and stockin my pantry, being vegan has been a smooth
    ride, but there was no local vegan club for me to join and ask those things to.

    It would have been so much easier if I could have just found a...

    god..

    I just now thought about something!!!!

    What about a national phone line for vegans to call ????

    They could give out all sorts of information all day long in just one go !!!!!!


    what do you guys think???

    I'll give it some serious thought !
    i'm quite excited actually..

    Please let me know if you think this could be a good idea..!!!

    Bye

  10. #10
    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Quote burl View Post
    One word: cheese.
    That's just what they think. Obviously, all of us stopped thinking that when we took up veganism. I said that, too, before I gave it up. But going vegan has just made me realize that it's perfectly silly to say that one cannot give up what one has never even tried to give up.
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Selfishness is the only reason. All excuses and reasoning comes from that.

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Because they don't want to. And/or they see no reason why they should.
    While I don't support or condone the choices non-vegans make, each of us has the right to follow our own path without judgement from others.

    I find it difficult to understand those who believe that veganism is somehow the universal truth, without being able to consider what lies behind the choices other people make. Many times these choices may be flawed, but it's not always the case.

  13. #13
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    i think that quite a large % of humans are stupid, really. They live without thinking about what they do.

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    A large amount of people just dont care. People are not stupid, they know things are murdered for there taste buds but they like meat to much and dont care. I know many people that just laugh at my concern for animals and think i am over sensitive. As far as they are concerned animals are there to be eaten and humans are higher up on the food chain.
    Some people just arnt able to go veggie/vegan because of there parents, some are just worried what they will eat and will they be able to cook as well as they can, they are worried about feeding there families and how they will react and some just dont give a darn.

  15. #15
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    I agree with what most people have said and also I think most humans find it difficult to be different/ outside of the mainstream. I read an article about two years ago and the journalist was saying how vegans aren't "normal."

    I think it is difficult to listen to vegan principles and reconcile them with real life and most omni's think that vegans are too extreme or that they are sickly or depriving themselves and they don't really understand the reasoning behind it.

    I do think some people are just purely selfish though and do not care about what suffering they cause even when they know about it and that some people do not consider animal suffering to be equal to human suffering.

    I think the environmental factor is much more likely to influence omni's, although I think there has been a backlash against the nanny state. If people were encouraged to cut down on meat and dairy and people knew that there were alternatives I think it would work. I think people might act out of self interest if veganism was promoted as beneficial to the environment and their own personal health.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Yeah, people are not "stupid." "Stupid" should not be equated with morality. There are plenty of sociopaths who couldn't care less about others and yet are frighteningly brilliant in their capacity to manipulate others. There are people who are extremely gregarious and yet have very poor understanding of the workings of their fellow humans.

    I think we are so much a part of our culture and our society, it's hard to realize. If you had grown up in Aztec society, just a few centuries ago, it's highly unlikely that you would be vegan. If you have been taught to cling to things like food by their sheer abundance and by human dominance, then veganism presents something that much challenge these cultural teachings.
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    .

  18. #18
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Quote vegetarian_cat View Post
    Lol

    hard to deny that.


    it's really my considered opinion (that many humans are stupid) from day to day observations

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    I believe a lot of people do know deep down that it is wrong to eat animals...........that's why they get so defensive when they meet a vegan............well, that's MY experience anyway!
    They don't want to face that truth though, as they are selfish and only think about themselves and not other living beings!
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    As a new vegan, who spent about a year deciding, I can tell you what some of the things that delayed me were (and as BJNick says, they all come down to selfishness, no denying it)
    - I think of myself as a sort of colourful person. My image of vegans was grey, knit your own lentil types who wore awful coats (I'm sorry to admit such a shallow thing was an obstacle to doing something so ethical). I only knew two vegans - one was my sister, who is actually a role model and nothing like the above. The other fulfilled the description above. Then I read loads of stuff, and the vegans seemed more funky to me, and I thought I could put up with the coats. I can't believe that I have honestly admitted that in public, and I don't like myself for it. I'm sure you guys are very funky! And I recast the image as radical opposition to our consumer culture (and yet I'm such a consumer), which I liked more. It was the sort of smell of puritanism that put me off. It didn't fit with my self image.
    - I couldn't imagine what I would eat. My sister cooks fantastic food, but it requires a lot of effort. I ate mainly junk for a long time. I learnt to cook healthy vegetarian food, and then it was a much smaller step to jump to healthy vegan food
    - I imagined that all Indian food was cooked with ghee. I didn't think I could live without Indian food. My solution was to learn to cook the food myself, but with veg oil. And I discovered my local Indian restaurant uses vegetable ghee for health reasons (not sure it's actually any healthier, I imagine its still saturated, but I'm not complaining)
    - I didn't like any of the vegan cheeses and thought they were necessary. Now I know just not to eat them raw, they are better cooked (but best avoided!)
    - I didn't want to inconvenience people. I eat with friends who cook for me a lot. I didn't want to put them out. Some rise to the challenge and relish it, some can't cope, so I cook for them.
    - I did have concerns about health, that it wasn't possible to thrive without dairy products and eggs - but that was the problem most easily dealt with - I just read 'Plant based nutrition and health' - its a fantastic book
    - I couldn't imagine what I would eat for lunch - what could I buy from a petrol station (where I always bought my lunch as my job involves driving round all day, visiting people in their homes). The answer is an apple and crisps, or avoid that cr*p altogether and bring sandwiches. The vegan society list of sandwich fillings was pretty crucial to my conversion.
    - I read the stuff about animal cruelty on farms and thought it must be exaggerated as it bore no resemblance at all to my Dad's farm, where the animals are treated very well (right up until the moment they are brutally slaughtered). But my Dad's farm makes no money, and most farms aren't like that. And also, it isn't just about how you treat them before you kill / murder them, its that its wrong in the first place to treat a sentient being as a chattel.
    - I thought it would hurt my family a lot, who regard my vegan sis as pretty weird in her veganism, but she did that as a teenager - I'm middle aged and rejecting their values.
    Thats enough to start with eh?
    v

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    I think a vegan phone line would have been great for me, but I wonder if it would attract the sort of trolls I have seen on the vegan vs non vegan bit. I suppose you could put the phone down or barr calls from that number.

  22. #22
    Eat Y'self Fitter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Ok, I've been a vegan almost a month, and I haven't eaten meat in 6-7 months. So I've been eating meat for 20 years of my life and almost 1 year not. Why did I not become vegan sooner? Simple, cultural reasons, everyone is so used to eating meat. Almost everyone does it and doesn't think twice about it. So when you have that programmed in your mind as thats what you should do it just seems natural.

    When someone argues that animal products are cruel, bad to the enviroment etc you get defensive because thats what is ingrained in your head as right. Personally I thought vegans were assholes at first because I met someone who was kind of a militant vegan and that turned me off of the whole thing. However, I know now that we're just passionate.

    Why I become vegan/vegitarian (at first)? I'm not sure to be honest with you, I have friends that were for a while however they diddn't influence me. I made the decision on my own out of nowhere. It just felt like the right thing to do at the time.

    With all of my heart, I believe becoming vegan has been the best decision of my life! I feel healthier, I eat healthier and I feel good about what I eat and myself. I never really cared about much until I stopped eating meat, now I feel more socially aware.

    But now I agree with you, now that I am vegan and I realise how easy it is, it seems ridiclous that people would eat and use animal products, but you can't really pressure anyone to change their ways. You can show them that there are other ways, but at the end of the day its a decision people will have to make for themselves.

  23. #23
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Quote Eat Y'self Fitter View Post
    When someone argues that animal products are cruel, bad to the enviroment etc you get defensive because thats what is ingrained in your head as right.
    That is so true Eat Y'self Fitter!

    I had a discussion with someone a couple of weeks ago who argued with me that soya milk wasn't as 'healthy' as cow's milk. He was so sure he was right because that's what he had grown up thinking...........he didn't even consider the facts.
    So, to back up my point I made a table listing the nutrients in both soya and cow's milk proving that soya is indeed preferable to cow's milk and emailed it to him! :smile:


    (p.s. Verencemos, you'll never meet a group of people more 'funky' than us on the vegan forum! )
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    after a year of being vegan, it just keeps getting easier and easier, I did think it was going to be so much harder than it is. I would post the reasons I think, but they have been covered pretty well, not sure i can add much more

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    We just did Burns night. The vegan haggis was the outright winner amongst even very confirmed carnivores. Wahey

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Sorry, utterly irrelevant, but I've had a lot of whisky, my coat is a bit dull, but my firends here are vfunky

  27. #27

    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Quote Eat Y'self Fitter View Post
    When someone argues that animal products are cruel, bad to the enviroment etc you get defensive because thats what is ingrained in your head as right. Personally I thought vegans were assholes at first because I met someone who was kind of a militant vegan and that turned me off of the whole thing. However, I know now that we're just passionate.
    Yeah, and even when someone makes their points carefully and kindly, the other person may see it in an accusatory light, that basically you are saying that they have been doing terrible things their whole life, and they have a black/white type thinking pattern that can't allow for moral ambiguity, and since they see themselves as generally good people, they can't have been doing something so wrong for so long.

    This blog article explains the dynamics and thought processes well.

  28. #28
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Quote Quantum Mechanic View Post
    Yeah, and even when someone makes their points carefully and kindly, the other person may see it in an accusatory light,
    Yes, but then that just proves that they know deep down you are right in your views. If they were so sure the way they treat animals is ok they wouldn't get so defensive, especially if you are putting your views across 'carefully and kindly'.

    I don't think it's so much to do with how veganisim is put across but more how the recipient of that information feels about themselves and how they treat animals.

    There is no getting away from it, it is not right to treat animals the way humans treat them and most people know this whether they admit it or not.

    I always put my views across 'carefully and kindly' to omnivores but they still get defensive. You just can't win!
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    The title of this thread suggests that omnivores have some kind of obligation to turn vegan.... they don't, last time I looked...

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Why don't they Fiamma?
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Perhaps I expressed myself badly... I just feel that each one of us should be respected in the dietary and lifestyle choices me make; we expect others to respect our choices as vegans, and feel this respect should be extended to others, no matter how wrong we ourselves consider their choices to be. I would love it if the whole world turned vegan, and the world would be healthier for it - healthier environment and healthier population, with much less cruelty to animals. But if we're realistic, the whole world is not going to turn vegan. So I think we need to respect others' choices if we expect respect for our own. And thinking that others have an obligation to turn vegan is, IMO, presumptious, if not arrogant on our part.

  32. #32
    Prawnil
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    If we do consider those choices to be indefensible and brutal, does that "respect" consist of anything more than just biting our tongues? Or by respect do you mean not-deeming-the-individual-evil-for-a-(non)decision, since lifestle can change?

    I don't "respect" omnivorism any more than I "respect" violent psychoses. I wouldn't respect a man's decision that his child needed to be punched in the jaw, but I would not necessarily consider that man inherently, irreparably rotten or evil - but I don't think the word "respect" communicates that. I must accept a violent psychosis and have hope for the person's future, but not respect it. I feel the same way about a person's non-decision to continue their part in slaughter.

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    I agree with you Prawnil!
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Quote Prawnil View Post
    If we do consider those choices to be indefensible and brutal, does that "respect" consist of anything more than just biting our tongues? Or by respect do you mean not-deeming-the-individual-evil-for-a-(non)decision, since lifestle can change?

    I don't "respect" omnivorism any more than I "respect" violent psychoses. I wouldn't respect a man's decision that his child needed to be punched in the jaw, but I would not necessarily consider that man inherently, irreparably rotten or evil - but I don't think the word "respect" communicates that. I must accept a violent psychosis and have hope for the person's future, but not respect it. I feel the same way about a person's non-decision to continue their part in slaughter.
    Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on that one, Prawnil. I'm not saying I condone someone's decision to be omnivore, but their postion deserves to be respected, as does mine to be vegan.

  35. #35
    Prawnil
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    But respected meaning what? Does "respect" the way you're using it differ at all from "accept"? That's what I don't understand (yet).

    I'm not convinced that omnivorism can be fairly described as a lifestyle choice. For one, I don't believe that it is generally a choice at all, only an inherited cultural given for most, but more importantly, the brutal, bloody, destructive reality of suffering in the slaughterhouses can't be separated from the "lifestyle". If a person with sexist or racist beliefs enacts those beliefs, causing certain people to suffer, is that belief/choice respectable? What does it mean to respect a person's choice to cause suffering?

  36. #36

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    I really don't feel like arguing semantics with you; I'm simply trying to say that in my humble opinion, each person has a right to lead their life how they feel is right, and this should be respected.

    Respect = "to treat with consideration" ("consideration" = "to be "thoughtful of the feelings and interests of others.")

    I also think that comparing omnivorism to sexism or racism is wrong and misleading; again you're falling back on the assumption that veganism is somehow the Universal Truth. Sorry to disappoint, but there is no such thing as far as veganism is concerned; it's like saying those in a position where they are unable to be vegan, or those who have no intention to be vegan - are somehow bad people. And I don't go with that.

  37. #37

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    VERENCEMOS, that was very helpful. Thank you !
    It gave me a lot more insight into what can possibly stop people
    from making this choice. I had NO idea that thinking vegans aren't funky
    could be a reason for not turning vegan so i guess it's important to show
    that we aren't all extremists/purists/gray .
    How can we show that you think?

    For instance, I try to cook really yummy stuff and I send pictures to my friends.
    I don't add much. I just say they are vegan cakes or food and I just say "if i can do this, everyone can!" and a smiley.
    So far I've had a few friends convinced..


    Maybe I should have asked "why didn't YOU (as in all of us here) become
    a vegan earlier?". I didn't mean to sound arrogant.

    I both agree and disagree that we have to respect omnivores.
    I wasn't a bad person when I wasn an omnivore.
    i was just an ill informed one. I would have felt very bad if someone
    had attacked me for eating chicken breast.

    At the same time, I would have been grateful if someone else had
    told me more about what I was eating and showed me a different route, gently
    but firmly.

    So, they need respect cause it may take some time and knowledge and help, yes.
    But they don't need to be left alone completely. I find a bit of nagging in this case
    totally justified.. No more than a bit though, or they'll either get defensive or
    totally against the idea.

    Anyway, thanks again for sharing

  38. #38
    Prawnil
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Quote fiamma View Post
    I also think that comparing omnivorism to sexism or racism is wrong and misleading; again you're falling back on the assumption that veganism is somehow the Universal Truth.
    I do treat suffering = suffering as a Universal Truth, that suffering is even prior to badness, that no suffering is good suffering. This brackets suffering caused by sexism, racism, speciesism etc.
    Bear with me:
    but, if it is wrong to compare speciesism with racism and sexism because it requires the assumption that veganism is Universal Truth, presumably it is wrong because race-equality and sex-equality, contrasted with species-equality, ARE Universal Truths. The difference being numbers of believers in species-equality in whichever particular society.
    Does that mean, then, that in a society that does not (in majority) accept race-equality as Universal Truth, racist views are worthy of respect?

    I do agree that it is misleading though: speciesism, as opposed to the other 'isms, requires billions of needless deaths annually.
    (not to say that there are no racist and sexist killings)


    Quote fiamma
    it's like saying those in a position where they are unable to be vegan, or those who have no intention to be vegan - are somehow bad people.
    I did, but perhaps not very clearly, say that to treat a person's actions as not worthy of respect is not to condemn that person as inherently and irreparably bad.
    To understand that a person causes suffering only out of ignorance or (arguably innocent) indifference does not require that their actions be respectable! It doesn't mean that person ought to be hated, but to accept their actions is not equal to respecting them as morally equivalent to your own.

    Quote fiamma
    each person has a right to lead their life how they feel is right, and this should be respected.
    Is that only because of veganism's minorty status, or does the same apply to all views that lead to subjugation, torture and death?
    I hope that I'm not seeming to go over the top, since this word "respect" is being applied to the belief that killing is defensible. It is important to be clear whether or not in that case it is an empty use of the word.

  39. #39

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Quote Prawnil View Post
    speciesism, as opposed to the other 'isms, requires billions of needless deaths annually.
    (not to say that there are no racist and sexist killings)

    This is very true..
    This is exactly what is making me turn from being an activist
    for women's issues (that I still am, but less) to being an activist for animals.

    Just the sheer number of animals involved in brutal deaths.
    It's too big.
    It made it a priority for me.

    Plus, the fact that unlike women and people discriminated for their race,
    animals can't speak for themselves and have very few friends.

    That thought too sealed the deal.

  40. #40
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Vegetarian cat said 'I dont know..
    i had a really bad vibe from what happened today in that forum..
    I'm afraid they don't do animals a favour by putting themselves
    on a pedistal and judging people who are exactly like they were too
    until they turned vegans.'

    I think that this kind of attitude - from the people on the forum - is exactly what puts people off! I know a few people have said it but the judgemental attitude is so upsetting. Surely veganism is about equality (of us and animals) and then acting like we are better than other people seems to totally go against that spirit! I hope someone will slap me hard if I ever act like I am superior to someone who doesn't share my beliefs, otherwise I am just giving people an excuse to not want to identify with a group that acts that way.

  41. #41
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    i don't have much respect for anyone who chooses to continue eating dead animals or their parts/derived products having been made aware of the suffering behind their choices . They obviously don't have a lot of respect for other living creatures, do they, selfish fools?.

    i am very upset that my husband has been told by his doctor to eat 'oily fish' and has gone back to it with relish . It's his choice, he has to come shopping with me and physically buy it, he has to prepare it, and if it needs cooking, he has to cook it, whether i'm his carer or not (as i also see myself as a carer for animals).

    i cannot stop my husband on this new decision but i sure as hell don't respect the choice he's made, and he, as a person, has gone down in my estimation .

    Furthermore, i totally believe that everyone WILL go vegan in the end, it's the only way to sustain the human race, the planet, the environment.......

  42. #42

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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Prawnil, you must forgive me, but when arguments get too philosophical they go over my head and I lose the thread of what's being said. I've said all I have to say on the matter and don't see the point of repeating myself. I'm sorry if this answer is not satisfactory for you, but hey.

    I'm leaving this thread now.

  43. #43
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Cobweb, I totally agree with your post...........every single word.
    As vegans I don't see HOW we can even begin to 'respect' a meat eaters right to eat meat?
    I sympathise with you with regard to your husband eating fish. Only today I had a heated discussion with my husband about his dairy consumption..........I despair sometimes and today was one of those days when I felt as if life was pointless and what the Hell was the point anymore!
    I had watched the Countryfile programme and they were discussing pig farming. I got so intensely angered by the treatment of those poor pigs that I thought I was going to burst. I HATE the fact that humans call themselves 'humane'............that's a joke..........more like 'creepy psychopaths'
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  44. #44
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    ^ in total agreement Sandra.

  45. #45
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    I don't generally respect omni's at all for their lifestyle decision about eating animals. Any way you look at it those animals they eat are murdered. Saying that the only people I care about are all omni so it is a conflict for me. Life is complicated.

  46. #46
    helen105281
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Same here, most people I care about are omni too. I respect some omnis more than others. I don't respect those who act all sqeamish about meat and get upset when they see animal cruelty, but still insisit on eating meat. I respect a tiny bit more those who know what goes on but don't give a damn about it as at least they are not hypocritical. Hope that makes sense.

  47. #47

    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Quote fiamma View Post
    I really don't feel like arguing semantics with you; I'm simply trying to say that in my humble opinion, each person has a right to lead their life how they feel is right, and this should be respected.

    Respect = "to treat with consideration" ("consideration" = "to be "thoughtful of the feelings and interests of others.")

    I also think that comparing omnivorism to sexism or racism is wrong and misleading; again you're falling back on the assumption that veganism is somehow the Universal Truth. Sorry to disappoint, but there is no such thing as far as veganism is concerned; it's like saying those in a position where they are unable to be vegan, or those who have no intention to be vegan - are somehow bad people. And I don't go with that.
    But people can do very awful things without meaning to cause harm. This doesn't make what they're doing any less harmful - it doesn't mean that people should stop trying to show them a different way, that they are doing harm - but people are complicated and there are many shades of grey in life, and we all have many aspects of ourselves that are good and bad. Some much more on one side or another, though most of us have a lot on both sides and in between.

    I already posted this link in another thread about this issue, but it is very important to keep in mind in advocacy. I am involved in autistic self-advocacy a lot, and a common thread is for autistic advocates to be told that they think parents of autistics who don't agree with them are "bad people" because they do things that we disagree with - and yes, which may be harmful. But frankly, as the article points out, it is more important for someone's life or safety to be taken into account than for the parent/omni's feelings to be utterly spared by not broaching the subject at all or by treating it as if it's completely okay.

    Of course, this doesn't give a free pass to be harsh or rude to people. That would be counter productive on top of everything. But to explain with tact what we see as going wrong, and that this doesn't mean we think that omni's/veggies are bad people (perhaps remind that almost all of us were omni and/or veggie at one point ourselves), but that just because we have been doing something wrong for so long, doesn't negate all the good things we've done during that time as well. After reading that blog article, I think a lot of omni's have trouble switching to veganism because it means acknowledging that they've done something wrong for a long time, and that a lot of people think this would negate their "good guy" self-image, so rather than change and accept that everyone errs and can change, they would rather justify why animal product consumption "can't be wrong". At least for many people I suspect this would be the case, there are lots of reasons for lots of people.

  48. #48
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Fiamma

    I think I can see where you are coming from and I also think you were right to abandon this thread. If I were you, I would have done the same, as some people are only interested in 'scoring points' rather than trying to hear what another person is saying. Although an atheist, my philosophy is 'Hate the sin but love the sinner'.
    (If anybody wants to query my use of the words sin + sinner, kindly bugger off- although of course I still love you!)

  49. #49
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Fiamma

    I think I can see where you are coming from and I also think you were right to abandon this thread. If I were you, I would have done the same, as some people are only interested in 'scoring points' rather than trying to hear what another person is saying. Although an atheist, my philosophy is 'Hate the sin but love the sinner'.
    (If anybody wants to query my use of the words sin + sinner, kindly bugger off- although of course I still love you!)

    Thank you, you said what i would like to but could not put as well as you have.

  50. #50
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do you think omnivores don't turn vegans sooner ?

    Leedsveg, I hope I'm not one of those people you think are just trying to 'score points'.
    I don't think it has anything to do with that as far as I'm concerned. I'm not saying all omnivores are evil etc I'm saying I can't respect their view that it is ok to torture, kill and eat other living beings..............if that means I am trying to score points then I'm trying to score points!

    p.s. Fiamma is a good friend of mine and I wouldn't do or say anything to try and score points over her, I just happen to disagree with her on this one that's all and I don't think she needed to leave the thread!
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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