Embarrassed by our sub-forum about PeTA?

[horselesspaul]

I am embarrassed by the fact that we have a sub-forum dedicated to an organisation which kills most of its "rescued" animals and trivialises animal rights by its constant need to use the objectification of women and hyperbole to get its "message" across.
I realise that they are a large organisation and I'm sure they do much good work but it is negated in the mind of the wider public by the two issues I raise above which open us all up to ridicule and charges of hypocrisy.
What do you think about it?

[Korn]

Remember it isn't a subforum dedicated to Peta, or 'praising' Peta, it's a section dedicated to discussing Peta...

[Mr Flibble]

As most of the posts aren't pro peta i don't feel embarassed by it.

[horselesspaul]

Should we not then have sub-fora dedicated to any and all other groups all over the world which work tirelessly to abolish animal suffering?

[Mr Flibble]

If there are enough discussions about each to make it logical to group them together then I see no reason why not.

[horselesspaul]

To be candid, I am just fed up with the assumption that they speak for us all and felt that this sub-forum reinforces that impression. I am not having a good day since realising that my tax return must be in by midnight tomorrow..and PeTA just p1ss me off!

[Roxy]

I got the feeling that most people's view of Peta was negative. I'm not embarrassed to have a sub-forum dedicated to them, as I quite enjoy reading other's opinions of Peta.

[AV]

I applied for a job at PETA once and as part of the application process they made me volunteer to stand on Oxford Street wearing basically nothing apart from my underwear for a whole day in December, to protest against something together with other volunteers. They also made me wear extremely high heels even though I explained that I never wear heels. I thought this was very thoughtless of them, I felt humiliated and was ill for a week. The staff were friendly but the senior management in the UK office was rude and arrogant, although they have been by now removed I was told. Anyway, so I agree PETA aren't the most suitable organisation to support...
I have worked for several other animal welfare charities which do not use silly measures such as women having to strip naked in public, they use respectful campaigning measures and do not humiliate those who support them.

[snivelingchild]

They forced you to strip in public to join, or they forced you to volunteer and that was an opening? Couldn't you have refused?

[Roxy]

Wow! If they forced you to strip and stand in the street as part of the application process, you should've reported them.

Our AR group is doing a naked protest next week against fur, but we also have clothing optional activists. Come join us! You can keep your clothes on if you want to

[ellaminnowpea]

ROXY!! Are you going to be one of the naked protesters?

[AV]

As part of the application process I had to spend 3 days working at their office. It came as a surprise to me when they "suggested" that I should join the almost naked protest, it was obvious that if I declined they would take me off their candidate list for the job. At that point I was quite desperate to get the job because I really wanted to help animals as part of my full time employment, now I would know better. Anyway, I decided to never go back there after that day and got a job with a much nicer and more efficient charity.

[songlife]

I say, make a sub-forum about Friends of Animals!! They are awesome. We can call it, "Friends of Animals - a.k.a. PAETA (People ACTUALLY for the Ethical Treatment of Animals)"

horselesspaul - I was also disappointed to see a sub-forum here about PETA. Let's not forget what they've done with KFC Canada.

Every second time someone wants to argue with me about veganism, they bring up PETA. I am so sick of it. By default I agree with a lot of what PETA does but at the same time they go against those very things I thought I was agreeing with them on. They make us all look like hypocritical flakes (in my little opinion) and I don't think that they deserve a whole sub-forum because it only gives them more publicity!

[Korn]

To be candid, I am just fed up with the assumption that they speak for us all and felt that this sub-forum reinforces that impression.

With all the critical comments from many of our members (myself included) about Peta, the subforum might as well be called "Anti-Peta"....

Peta don't 'speak for us all' at all, and I'm pretty sure they - for lots of people - serve as a reason/explanation that not more people go vegan. The embarrassing part is IMO Peta, not that we discuss Peta, and if it's true that they have between 1.6 and 2 million paying members, the way they represent animals and veg*n viewpoints is embarrassingly weak.

Peta threads/discussions will always pop up on discussion boards like this, but please suggest a new name for the forum if you think it gives the impression that there's anything pro Peta baked into having such a subforum here.

For now, I'll just add a question to the subforum title...

[cobweb]

I say, make a sub-forum about Friends of Animals!! They are awesome. We can call it, "Friends of Animals - a.k.a. PAETA (People ACTUALLY for the Ethical Treatment of Animals)"

horselesspaul - I was also disappointed to see a sub-forum here about PETA. Let's not forget what they've done with KFC Canada.

Every second time someone wants to argue with me about veganism, they bring up PETA. I am so sick of it. By default I agree with a lot of what PETA does but at the same time they go against those very things I thought I was agreeing with them on. They make us all look like hypocritical flakes (in my little opinion) and I don't think that they deserve a whole sub-forum because it only gives them more publicity!

what did they do with KFC?

[horselesspaul]

That's great Korn.
Thanks for the question mark too.

[Vegan_Steven]

Frankly my oppinion of PETA is currently up in the air. Their eccenticities and alienation of the general public who support them seems to currently leave room for criticism. I feel that they could perform their tasks in more constructive ways.

If we could raise as much money as PETA how many of us wouldn't spend it in the form of animal sanctuaries, buying stock in animal products companies to gain some control of them, hire lobbyists to further the cause etc, etc, instead of advertising and pissing off every McDonalds chowing maze rat and right winger ?

I don't oppose them, any group that supports animal rights is one more group that adds to the strength of the cause but currently I'm not going to blindly follow PETA. I'll try to observe their future agenda with a wait, see attitude.

[Korn]

any group that supports animal rights is one more group that adds to the strength of the cause

Why?

[pat sommer]

Good attitude, Steven. Open mind.

It's just human nature that tells us we would run things better if given the chance. Not being privy to the negotiations and investigations of an organization, how do we make judgments?

We judge based on the most superficial, media buzzed campaigns ignoring the masses of educational outreach, high-risk undercover ops and legal work.

Face it, by enjoying this forum we are sitting on our backsides doing nothing for animals (myself included). I ain't knocking anyone who does more.

[horselesspaul]

I disagree.
Firstly, PeTA's operations are almost entirely made public and the killing of rescued animals is something they attempt to justify rather than deny. They have bought stock in meat industry companies, they are proud of it. I personally do not judge on the most superficial media buzzed campaigns alone as that would plainly be moronic, but one has to weigh up how much good they do against how much harm they do, as one would with any quantitive assessment of anything in life.
As for this forum being about sitting on our backsides doing nothing for the animals, this forum is a valued resource for vegans and those considering and researching veganism. How it is perceived in the wider world and the encouragement it gives must surely do something for the animals. I tend to keep the other things I do for the animals private for a variety of reasons.
I find your post simplistic and glib and slightly insulting to Korn and the members of this forum.

[snivelingchild]

They don't "attempt" to justify killing animals, it is their stance! It is the same as the RSPCA and the humane society. It is also the position of the vast majority of sheltors because there are simply too many animals. You can argue for no-kill shelters is you like, but don't blame them for being the same as the majority of animal organizations. I happen to support euthanasia for animals who cannot be taken care of rather than them running stray, but you can see tons of those posts in another thread.

For one, I do not blame or scorn Peta at all. In my mind, the campaigns that most people hate simply align with the masses and pop culture of society. Should be hold themselves to higher standards? Maybe. Because they don't doesn't make them horrible in my mind. Just as I don't think pres Clinton was the DEVIL for getting a blowjob. No one is perfects, and frankly I just feel that Peta is too large and corrupt. I dare anyone to make an international animal rights organization as large as them without becoming corrupt. With opinions as strong as those that revolve around AR, there are bound to be people that vastly differ in their opinions.

I still think Peta is by far above the "average" morals of pretty much every society, so I still think they should keep going. They're nowhere near perfect, and never will be, but they're trying.

I would NEVER blame a single person who does a campaign that I think is in the wrong direction, but trying to attain something I want. I would hope they change, but never blame. Blame is never helpful or constructive. Peta lead so many campaigns based on letter writing, that I'd imagine a campaign to THEM for change would at least be heard. lol, maybe we create a second org dedicated to reforming the first.

[aubergine]

PeTA aren't a Vegan organisation, and as such I end up having to explain their rampant stupidness to non-Vegans.

*sigh*

[pat sommer]

My sympathies to you, Aubergine, they are American and therefore a little rampantness is to be expected....

No offense intended, Horseless Paul, this is an informal forum and I speak in my usual direct German manner. However, I do find some comments above Naive.

Not that I don't agree with so much said but Devil's Advocate is my nature: only open mouth if we can do better.

For those interested in the bigger picture:
http://www.peta.org/feat/annualreview/numbers.asp

Back to the original post: AR/Welfare is a family and as such we are embarrassed at times by family members. Sorry that you have experienced negative consequences as a result.

[Roxy]

ROXY!! Are you going to be one of the naked protesters?

No, I am in charge of the clothed activists and making sure everyone behaves appropriately infront of the TV cameras.

[pat sommer]

I got naked once Peta Deutschland and Ingrid Newkirk: we were wearing toe tags (symbolizing dead bodies) and I don't think that objectified me. I wouldn't have taken offense though if anyone had accused me of being sexy. Not much chance of that now but I'd strip or any other silly stunt to get the message out.


To paraphrase Paul Watson 'I don't care, I don't work for them; I work for the whales'

Let's keep it clear who we support

[Roxy]

I agree actually. This thing comes up a lot between my friends and I, when we're disagreeing with what other AR or welfare groups are doing. We constantly have to remind ourselves that we do what we do for THE ANIMALS and not for our egos.

If people want to strip for an animal rights cause, then all the power to them It certainly gets people's attention - and that's what you need for a successful protest!

[Korn]

For those interested in the bigger picture:
http://www.peta.org/feat/annualreview/numbers.asp

Maybe the real 'big' picture here is to see what they actually promote, how they work, which effect they (and Ingrid Newkirk) have on people etc, so a list showing the quantities of what they do here may have the opposite effect of what they want for people who disagree with their profile.

Whenever I look at something on Peta's various web pages, I see something which just doesn't make sense.

Their forum has fewer members than ours... isn't that strange if the organization actually has 2 million (!) members?

If I spend a minute imagining what could be done for the vegan cause with all the people and funds Peta has, the only conclusion I come to is the the best thing that could happen with Peta would be if the organization dissolved, meaning that all these people could invest their work and contributions to a real vegan group.

I also looked at something their wrote about B12 the other day, and found that they promote the usual nonsense about B12 (if not absorbed from animal products) being absorbed from dirt, feces and insects.

This stunt must be very high on the list of Peta's many attempts of pushing people away from them. It's like they're trying hard not to be taken seriously by average people - which is a tragedy given that Peta is the largest pro-vegan organization in the world. I wonder if they actually discuss such stunts (her will) and make a collective decision on whether it's a good idea to do this within the Peta 'sphere' or not, or if Ingrid Newkirk just tells other that she'll do it, and makes someone put it up on Peta's site?

[Korn]

It certainly gets people's attention - and that's what you need for a successful protest!

It somehow works, some extra people will stop and watch, but that doesn't mean that they'll agree in the message or have increased respect for the organization behind the protest - not by the people who stop and watch, and not by media.

[Roxy]

Some people will have respect and admire what the protesters are doing, and some won't. That's the way of the world. At least it makes people notice!

[Korn]

At least it makes people notice!

But... "All publicity is good publicity" is just a myth. I don't think it's a bad idea that there are groups doing all kinds of different types of stunts to help animals or to promote veganism, but there's some extra responsibility (in lack of a better word) on the shoulders of a group that is so large.

Like I've said before, maybe Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and Mandela would have gotten a lot more attention faster/earlier if they would have been pulling down their pants while giving their speeches - but would it help spreading their message in ways that would give them real respect? Would they be taken seriously by all those they need to reach out to - media, laymen and politicians?

[Marrers]

This stunt must be very high on the list of Peta's many attempts of pushing people away from them.

A friend of mine wanted to be made into a handbag and used for AR demos. (However I don't know whether it would have been allowed by the authorities - she died very unexpectedly, without making a will.)

[Opheliac]

²Marrers. Oh my God. ó_ò

[BlackCats]

Like I've said before, maybe Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and Mandela would have gotten a lot more attention faster/earlier if they would have been pulling down their pants while giving their speeches - but would it help spreading their message in ways that would give them real respect?

Can I just say that is hilarious.

I actually have to agree with the people that don't hate Peta. I don't know if it is maybe that I don't know too much about them though. I think they have caused some people to go veggie and vegan so I don't have too much of a problem with them.

[horselesspaul]

Maybe the real 'big' picture here is to see what they actually promote, how they work, which effect they (and Ingrid Newkirk) have on people etc, so a list showing the quantities of what they do here may have the opposite effect of what they want for people who disagree with their profile.

Whenever I look at something on Peta's various web pages, I see something which just doesn't make sense.

Their forum has less members than ours... isn't that strange if they actually have 2 million (!) members?

If I spend a minute imagining what could be done for the vegan cause with all the people and funds Peta has, the only conclusion I come to is the the best thing that could happen with Peta would be if the organization dissolved, meaning that all these people could invest their work and contributions to a real vegan group.

I also looked at something their wrote about B12 the other day, and found that they promote the usual nonsense about B12 (if not absorbed from animal products) being absorbed from dirt, feces and insects.

This stunt must be very high on the list of Peta's many attempts of pushing people away from them. It's like they're trying hard not to be taken seriously by average people - which is a tragedy given that Peta is the largest pro-vegan organization in the world. I wonder if they actually discuss such stunts (her will) and make a collective decision on whether it's a good idea to do this within the Peta 'sphere' or not, or if Ingrid Newkirk just tells other that she'll do it, and makes someone put it up on Peta's site?

Yet another excellent and cogent post Korn.

No offense intended, Horseless Paul, this is an informal forum and I speak in my usual direct German manner. However, I do find some comments above Naive.

Direct German manner? So what you wrote was just fairly insulting to everyone on the forum because you're German? Way to go with the stereotype removal.

Dude, are you calling me naïve, and with a capital N?
For why? Do tell.

[horselesspaul]

I actually have to agree with the people that don't hate Peta. I don't know if it is maybe that I don't know too much about them though. I think they have caused some people to go veggie and vegan so I don't have too much of a problem with them.

I don't hate them, I am disappointed in their stance on many key issues and regret the fact that they are seen as the face of animal rights campaigning.
I also find the way Ingrid Newkirk talks in public to be counter-productive in many ways.
I salute them for the good work the people who represent them often do however. Anything less would be chirlish in the extreme.

[Poison Ivy]

I pay very little attention to PeTA anymore, previously when I used to read about them I invariably reached a point where I thought things had gotten more than a little stoopid and were dumbed down to the lowest common denominator....and ended up pulling this face at whatever I was reading.

There are other, far worthier, organisations and individuals that I prefer to spend my free time reading about and supporting.

[pat sommer]

...and the stereotype of English being afraid to open their mouths lest someone be offended?

Way to throw another blow when I turned the other cheek. I was actually mildly hurt by the suggestion that I was rude so I extended an olive branch.

And yes, I stand by 'naive' (no capital) as I felt 'ignorant' or 'uninformed' was too harsh.

Tell me you have extensive experience in U.S. AR orgs and have spent some time at Peta HQ. Possibly have a background in Media or marketing...
At the very least you have read through their archives/followed campaigns/looked over their budgets.
Just tell me why you have an opinion worth listening to?

Me? My opinion ain't worth much. I'll spare everyone.

[horselesspaul]

...and the stereotype of English being afraid to open their mouths lest someone be offended?

I have no idea what you were trying to say with this.

Way to throw another blow when I turned the other cheek. I was actually mildly hurt by the suggestion that I was rude so I extended an olive branch.

But you made not attempt to qualify what you had said about your fellow forum members other than to blame "being German".

And yes, I stand by 'naive' (no capital) as I felt 'ignorant' or 'uninformed' was too harsh.

Tell me you have extensive experience in U.S. AR orgs and have spent some time at Peta HQ. Possibly have a background in Media or marketing...
At the very least you have read through their archives/followed campaigns/looked over their budgets.
Just tell me why you have an opinion worth listening to?

Twenty years of vegan activism and an inquiring mind usually works.

Me? My opinion ain't worth much. I'll spare everyone.

Why the sudden victim angle? Your opinion is obviously valued here. I merely wondered why you were so dismissive of this forum's contribution to the animals and why you called me naïve. Neither of these two points have you addressed, incidentally.

[pat sommer]

Thanks for asking for clarity.
Many British I found were overly self-censoring; you do break that stereotype.

Qualifying by expressing cultural differences. You think I'm blunt; try Chinese! I find it refreshing, though.

An inquiring mind is a very good start and boy, am I glad you are on our side. Direct experience with the org in question, I feel, is essential to an informed opinion. That isn't really possible in the UK where the European office of Peta is based. Plenty of other excellent orgs in UK so only a limited number of actions/demos are done on a tight budget.

My opinion on the cooking methods of legumes is worth listening to. The greater AR movement, no.

Just makes me sad when I hear the typical criticisms thrown about...
We are like crabs; when one climbs up the basket, the rest try to pull him back. Some of the most mean-spirited comments I've heard haven't come from omnis (not here).

[wendy]

I think PETA is great. I have no problem with people stripping naked to attract pres. I think they do a great job and without the information they provide to a learger public about all the cruelty connected to milk and eggs , a lot of vegetarians would not know about it and not have gone vegan.
I salute PETA and all they do. What would you have do with all the unwanted animals? I think no kill shelters are hypocrite as they only take in what they can place, leaving the other shelters to do the euthanasing. Offcourse I am against killing, but we have to attack the problem at his roots. Stop breeding!

[Korn]

We are like crabs; when one climbs up the basket, the rest try to pull him back.

?

I have no problem with people stripping naked to attract pres.

I'm sure lots of the people who aren't Peta fans don't 'have a problem' with it either - but that's different from agreeing that it's a good thing to do if they eg. want teachers in public schools to use Peta's various sites as resources for the students. I'm sure this could represent a problem especially in USA, where people still are discussing Janet Jackson's Superbowl/2004 nipple..

without the information they provide to a learger public about all the cruelty connected to milk and eggs , a lot of vegetarians would not know about it and not have gone vegan.

Wait... nobody is saying that Peta shouldn't distribute such information.

Aren't we discussing whether a pro-animal/pro-vegan group should do all that other stuff as well?

Maybe Peta sees itself primarily as a shelter/spay/neuter organization, or primarily as a 'shock tactics' group... or as a messenger for ALF, and see all the other stuff as 'extras'. In that case it wouldn't be relevant to criticize them for what they do and wish for Peta do develop into something else. Personally, I wish I could join a group that primarily focus on the many reasons to go vegan, focus on that it's wrong to kill or harm animals even if they aren't suffering under horrible conditions, contribute to killing the existing myths and misunderstandings about veganism - and skip all the other stuff (let other organizations take care of that). Unfortunately such an organization doesn't exist, and I agree with the many who suggest that Peta often have the opposite effect.

It's not about 'hating Peta' or not being 'open minded' enough - it's about looking at what they do and finding out if that's a group you'd like to support.

[wendy]

I still think PETA does an excellent job. And I am sure teachers can look up appropiate stuff.

But i so agree with the following you said:Personally, I wish I could join a group that primarily focus on the many reasons to go vegan, focus on that it's wrong to kill or harm animals even if they aren't suffering under horrible conditions, contribute to killing the existing myths and misunderstandings about veganism

[snivelingchild]

A person's opinion of PETA is worthless unless they're qualified? lame.

[aubergine]

But i so agree with the following you said:Personally, I wish I could join a group that primarily focus on the many reasons to go vegan, focus on that it's wrong to kill or harm animals even if they aren't suffering under horrible conditions, contribute to killing the existing myths and misunderstandings about veganism

Animal Aid?

[horselesspaul]

Thanks for asking for clarity.
Many British I found were overly self-censoring; you do break that stereotype.

Qualifying by expressing cultural differences. You think I'm blunt; try Chinese! I find it refreshing, though.

An inquiring mind is a very good start and boy, am I glad you are on our side. Direct experience with the org in question, I feel, is essential to an informed opinion. That isn't really possible in the UK where the European office of Peta is based. Plenty of other excellent orgs in UK so only a limited number of actions/demos are done on a tight budget.

My opinion on the cooking methods of legumes is worth listening to. The greater AR movement, no.

Just makes me sad when I hear the typical criticisms thrown about...
We are like crabs; when one climbs up the basket, the rest try to pull him back. Some of the most mean-spirited comments I've heard haven't come from omnis (not here).

Thanks Pat, I appreciate it.
I get you now.
Cheers.

[Mzee]

?

It's not about 'hating Peta' or not being 'open minded' enough - it's about looking at what they do and finding out if that's a group you'd like to support.

Exactly; I'm grateful to Peta. I had my eyes opened by an article they produced for a newspaper that exposed the cruelty of dairy farming. This inspired me to research the matter and to eventually become vegan. I ended up joining the Vegan Society, the Vegan Organic Network - and this forum!

I didn't join Peta, but I'm grateful to them; without them I might not have become vegan until years later.

[pat sommer]

Three cheers for all of us! We don't have to agree. We are definitely stimulating each others thought processes.

[horselesspaul]

Three cheers for all of us! We don't have to agree. We are definitely stimulating each others thought processes.

Indeed. We are a motley bunch, but a good one.

[Tibetan Snake]

hurraaarrr for all of us, and her bee dashusness all round.
X X X X

[fiamma]

To answer the original question - my answer is no. PeTA turned me vegan; had it not be them I might still be drifting in a sea of lacto-ovo ignorance to this day.