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Thread: Slaughterhouse vs. strawberry harvest: Can plants feel pain?

  1. #151
    Seaside
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    I'm not sure I like the wording used by the person you are quoting, satirecafe, about "granting" rights to others. African and Australian people, and animals, etc., already have those rights, and have always had them. Other people have conveniently refused to recognize this fundamental truth because it suited their ugly purposes. People really are not in a position to "grant" rights to others; only to recognize that they have treated others wrongfully in the past, and must stop.

    Will this grow to include non-animal life? I don't know. I do respect Life, the force which animates living forms, and wish I didn't have to rob anything of its life to maintain my own. But it looks to me like some omnis are trying to make it seem as if the vegan ethical movement's ultimate goal is to slowly reduce the number of "allowed" food items until there is nothing left for anyone to eat that's morally acceptable except rocks, which is just their way of trying to make us look extreme and irrational. We can't eliminate the need to kill in order to survive entirely, but that's not what veganism is about anyway. Veganism is about respecting life, and causing as little harm as possible.

  2. #152
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    lightatarian!! eat absloutley nothing! apparantly it is possible!!! ?

    clair

  3. #153

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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    Everything in its natural place. I dont believe we are meant to eat animals. Certainly we do not have the hunting instinct, the intestine, the teeth etc. I am sure you are familiar with the usual arguments.

    I believe plants have spirits and some form of consciousness that we dont understand, but we are made to eat them, its what we are, its the way the gods or god or whatever you believe in has made us and that is good enough for me.

  4. #154

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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    lol! My plants do very well on it

  5. #155
    satirecafe
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    Quote Seaside View Post
    I'm not sure I like the wording used by the person you are quoting, satirecafe, about "granting" rights to others. African and Australian people, and animals, etc., already have those rights, and have always had them. Other people have conveniently refused to recognize this fundamental truth because it suited their ugly purposes. People really are not in a position to "grant" rights to others; only to recognize that they have treated others wrongfully in the past, and must stop.

    Will this grow to include non-animal life? I don't know. I do respect Life, the force which animates living forms, and wish I didn't have to rob anything of its life to maintain my own. But it looks to me like some omnis are trying to make it seem as if the vegan ethical movement's ultimate goal is to slowly reduce the number of "allowed" food items until there is nothing left for anyone to eat that's morally acceptable except rocks, which is just their way of trying to make us look extreme and irrational. We can't eliminate the need to kill in order to survive entirely, but that's not what veganism is about anyway. Veganism is about respecting life, and causing as little harm as possible.
    good point, i just guess it depends on how you define the word 'rights.'

  6. #156
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    I don't support the idea of using 'kill' about picking a strawberry. That's a way of using the word that's normally only used by meat eaters who are trying to argue that vegans and vegetarians aren't any better than themselves because we 'kill' fruit and vegetables.

    It's easier for me to understand the philosophical viewpoints that some people have - those who claim that 'rights' is a manmade expression, and that 'rights' as such doesn't exist in nature. They say that animals are humans are/should be free to do what they want, including killing others, to survive. (Which IMO isn't really relevant in this discussion, because I don't think we need to kill to survive - and meat eaters don't choose meat instead of plants for survival reasons.)

    To say that rights don't exists, and that we somewhat have the right to kill, doesn't make sense either. If rights don't exist, how can we have the right to kill? Plus, even if someone would convince me into some weird religion saying that I DO have the right to kill animals for food, I don't want to, don't need to.... it feels wrong.

    I have respect for plants too. I don't like the idea of stepping on a flower or destroying an apple tree.

  7. #157
    Benji
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    we as humans are hetrotophs. That means we must consume things to obtain energy, weither it be plants or animals. Without it we will die. We can choose what we would like to consume for example no meat, eggs, ect. But in order to "save" the plants we would have to sacrifice ourselves. So a sly remark in return to someone who states this would be.... Although that may be true, by not eating meat, eggs, ect. (vegan or vegetarian) I making a difference. And then possbily lead into a rant on how meat is bad. :-D Good Luck!

  8. #158
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    I don't get this conversation - we all know that as vegans we eat plants, seeds, nuts, legumes etc. Meat eaters not only eat meat, but plants also, and the animals they consume have also eaten far more plants than you or I could ever eat. Therefore, vegans destroy fewer plants than do meat eaters.

    This discussion strikes me as rather silly, because as Benji says, without food we die, so what's to discuss?
    Eve

  9. #159

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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    I look at plants the same way I look at inanimate objects. They respond to their environment, sure, but their response wouldn't give me any reason to believe I should give value to one that doesn't want it. I don't treat people right because they're alive, I treat people right because they want to be treated right. A plant cannot define what "good" is, so I have no idea how to treat them. When an animal or human is hurt, I'm hurt. Why? Because from a scientific standpoint people relate the reactions humans and animals have to pain to their pain. Seeing lots of pain is bad for the human mind. In fact, in any different environment the killing of an animal is considered unusual and unnatural. Animals do it for survival, we don't. When we choose to inflict this pain, it's bad for us mentally. So anyway, my point is that a plant dieing is something I cannot relate to, it cannot have an effect on me so I cannot feel the full repercussions of what killing is because I cannot feel the full repercussions of the plant's death. Their death is something so alien to me that I probably wouldn't know when it died, if it's dead, etc. So in this sense, can their death actually be defined as "murder"? Now if animals are so alien to us in this way, we would have to accept this for all animals, including the cats and dogs we love so much, have responses we cannot relate to. If this is true, then I should be able to take a child to the slaughter of a cow and it be perfectly normal or shoot puppies, hearing their whines and seeing their blood and not be mentally inflicted. Although, if we were to accept this type of thinking, we would need to abolish animal testing right away. I mean, if they're completely different, animal research is pointless and it would be a health risk to think our medicine is safe.


  10. #160
    TheBringer
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    Lightbulb Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    Well I just spent quite a time reading this WHOLE thread, and I would like to quote some of you but that would take too much space.

    I think something everyone can read (i wont say should/would like because everyone has an opinion) is the "Conversations with God" trilogy, by Neald Donald Walsh (tell me if i spelled his name wrong).

    According to the books and partly my opinion:
    This is a really good spiritual example of what a plant might experience when uprooted/killed/eaten/ect. Assuming the plant is highly evolved being(,which i think so because they produce most of their own food, and can suvive without movement,) it would simply allow anything to kill it as a kind of asprin, or pain reliever, to whoever killed it. It's spirit would live on and it could reincarnate eventually.

    This depends on your belief in reincarnation, and spirits, ect. I believe in eternal spirits and rebirth of all soul energies, which are in and as trees, all plants, bugs, animals (including humans), all living beings, rocks, air, and all objects, so the above makes sense to me. I do not think that these spirits all manifest PHYSICALLY as sentient lives, so death is more of a REALLY painful feeling than anything, but the soul always heals. That is why I think the plant will be fine.

    I don't agree with everything those books say though.

  11. #161
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    Quote 1984 View Post
    Hey everybody.

    It seems that anytime a debate rises over my lifestyle choice with an omnivorous friend, the very first thing they do is get defensive and yell " But you kill plants, their alive too!". While I mostly try to shrug it off, I have not yet been able to come up with a valid response to this point.

    Sure I can say " You idiot plants dont have a central nervous system, they dont feel anything", I'm not too sure If I really believe that. Plants have many mechanisms to avoid being attacked - some are poisonous, have thorns, release gases...etc.

    Even fruitarians can be questioned..is not plucking a pepper from the plant kinda like taking the egg from the chicken? Anyways guys..I was wondering on your thoughts and opinions.

    And how can I respond to my friends without contradicting myself?
    I don't think anyone eats the poisonous, thorny or gas releasing plants. I really don't think plants feel, because they do lack a nervous system. They also don't think. Plants are here for consumption. If they weren't all vegans would starve and die. meat eaters would be even MORE unhealthy. And what is fruitarian? Fruit is from plants......they are ovaries.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." Kant

  12. #162
    mango
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    The thing about this argument is that it is always spurious. Do the people who trundle out this knee-jerk question 'what about plants' spend all their time thinking compassionate thoughts about plants? Of course not. They don't give a shit about anything. They're just trying to find a cheap intellectual attack against veganism.

    I had a horrible experience the other day, which I'm still upset about, where I bumped into a friend at the Level (small green space in brighton). He was with 3 other people, one of whom I know a bit and the other two I had met once before. One of them asked me, 'Are you a vay-gun?' (always a bad sign). I realise now I should have just walked away at that point. I foolishly said yes and was immediately bombarded with aggressive, nonsensical questions and accusations from all three of them, including "it's just a trendy thing, even though you've been vegan for ten years", "what about plants?", "what would you do if a poor villager killed their chicken and offered it to you in a meal?". One of them was so enraged at me he was shouting, banging his chest and wagging his finger while telling me that he has RESPECT. And I hadn't even brought up the subject. Of course I couldn't think of the best things to say as I was being simultaneously attacked by 3 people (it was almost impossible to get a word in at all). The questions and insults constantly changed, because obviously they were just looking for any way they could attack veganism.

    I think this showed very well that people who ask these kind of adolescent philosophy student type questions are not really interested in talking about the issues, don't really want to know what you think, and don't really give a flying soya monkey about plants, or animals, or anything else. They're just trying to score points. There's no point trying to present arguments to them because all they want to do is make themselves look big by proving you wrong. By trying to answer stupid questions, you just make yourself look as stupid as they are. The only answer is to rise above it. What I think I should have said was, "Try being vegan and giving up drugs for five years, then you might understand it a little bit."

  13. #163
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    Hi Mango,
    I'm really sorry to hear about this horrible encounter. It sounds as though these 'friends' were making remarks almost just to score points of each other at your expense.. It sounds pretty hurtful and now atleast you will be able to walk in the opposite direction when you see them.

    I had a 'plants have feelings' moment with my sister a couple of weeks ago. She studied ecology and is well informed on the environment etc..But she wheeled out an arguement about, how could I eat a nut and not worry about it's position in the ecosystem being lost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Mamma Mia! It sounds so ridiculous now but I felt really fed up with her attitude at the time.

    Hope you have a great evening.

  14. #164
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    This FAQ http://www.veganism.com/faqfile.html addresses the plant argument. It addresses a crapload of other arguments as well.
    "Destiny, or karma, depends upon what the soul has done about what it has become aware of."
    --
    Edgar Cayce

  15. #165
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    Thanks Monkey606...
    I'll pass this on to my sis! ;-)

  16. #166
    Seaside
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    #42 Isn't it hypocritical to kill and eat plants?

    It would be hypocritical IF the same criteria or morally relevant
    attributes that are used to justify animal rights also applied to
    plants. The criteria cited by the AR movement are "pain and suffering"
    and being "subjects-of-a-life". An assessment of how plants measure up
    to these criteria leads to the following conclusions.
    First, our best science to date shows that plants lack any semblance
    of a central nervous system or any other system design for such complex
    capacities as that of conscious suffering from felt pain.
    Second, plants simply have no evolutionary need to feel pain. Animals
    being mobile would benefit from the ability to sense pain; plants would
    not. Nature does not gratuitously create such complex capacities as that
    of feeling pain unless there is some benefit for the organism's
    survival.
    The only trouble I have with this and similar arguments is that you could substitute the word "animals" for "plants" in the following statement:

    First, our best science to date shows that plants lack any semblance
    of a central nervous system or any other system design for such complex
    capacities as that of conscious suffering from felt pain.

    Which is exactly what everyone used to think about animals, thanks to people like Descartes and Skinner. I think its important not to use omni logic to defend vegan positions. I don't worry so much about the confrontational types who just want to share their guilty burdens with us. But it is something I want to have a better argument for, in my own mind. So far, the best I can do is to actually agree, which kind of pulls the rug right out from under the person doing the arguing, and to clarify by admitting that although it may be just as wrong to kill plants as it is to kill animals, its better to be a compassionate, though possibly hypocritical, plant killer than a deliberate, unrepentant murderer.

    Because ultimately the argument can never be one involving right and wrong. Its more about who is causing the least harm.

  17. #167

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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    I believe that there is nothing wrong with eating plants or fruit. We live on this earth because it lets us. I believe the earth is a living thing, that expresses its life through plants, and other such rooted organisms. The fact that we are alive, combined with the fact that we need sustenance to support this life, should justify the fact that we need to eat plants. They are easily digestible (unlike meat and dairy), and so it should be assumed that if we need to eat, then we should at least eat something, that to the best of our knowledge, is not sentient and has no concept of pain.

    Each plant has a purpose, just like every other living being on this planet. Trees provide a replenishing source of oxygen, as well as fruit. Maybe humans are as intelligent as they are, so that they can protect the trees. A tree cannot uproot itself and migrate to shield itself from fire, but it can bear its fruit for human consumption, in the hopes of sharing some of its life to help sustain itself.

    It's like bees and pollination. The flower lets the bee have its nectar, knowing that it has a chance to reproduce because of the bee.

    We are here to protect the earth, not use up its resources and then move to the moon. Hopefully when everyone realizes this, we can then proceed to make some progress.

  18. #168
    Cloud_Child
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    Default Most Annoying arguement

    The most annoying thing people say when you are arguing about veganism is, when they say plants are living too.

    I find this extreamly difficult to counter, what is it that you say?

    It seems almost hypocritical to say that its different because they are plants, because isnt that exactly what meat eaters say about meat.
    Last edited by flutterby; Jan 2nd, 2007 at 01:58 PM. Reason: this was the 1st post in a similar thread

  19. #169
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    Default Re: Most Annoying arguement

    Yes, plants are living too. However they lack even the basic systems of shellfish and while they react to stimulus it cannot be proven that they feel pain as they don't have nerves.
    The best thing to say is 'if you're so worried about the welfare of plants, I'll do you a deal. You can watch a video of a slaughterhouse, and I'll watch a video of a strawberry harvest. Once we've watchted them we'll discuss our views further'
    That usually makes them look as foolish as they are

  20. #170
    I go on a bit Jamie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most Annoying arguement

    Quote absentmindedfan View Post
    'if you're so worried about the welfare of plants, I'll do you a deal. You can watch a video of a slaughterhouse, and I'll watch a video of a strawberry harvest. Once we've watchted them we'll discuss our views further'
    LMAO!!!! That is brilliant!

  21. #171
    Cloud_Child
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    Surely though, that is a very similar argument a meat eater would make about eating meat? They would say something like, many animals lack certain qualitys that we believe makes them important.

  22. #172
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    I really like that one too!!

  23. #173

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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    Absentmindedfan, you are a genius. I shall have to remember that line next time someone sticks me with the plant question.

  24. #174
    I go on a bit Jamie's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    Quote Cloud_Child View Post
    Surely though, that is a very similar argument a meat eater would make about eating meat? They would say something like, many animals lack certain qualitys that we believe makes them important.
    I would say plants and animals are extremely different beings, and the number one being that animals suffer (ie feel pain) for being killed to be eaten, whearas to the best of our knowledge, plants are incapable of feeling and feelings at alll, so don't seem to suffer.

    I see where you are coming from, but I don't think you can really say it is a similar point in truth (animals 'not important' vs. plants not feeling).

    I think what AMF and others are saying is about the reasons why we don't think that plants are capable of feeling things or suffering, rather than why they don't count as beings that shouldn't be eaten by humans.

  25. #175
    Eager Beaver philfox's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    i was searching through the forums for a thread on this subject. i get so fed up of being attacked from omnis about eating plants, that it is cruel and research shows they have pain too. my partner's work friend is the son of the local butcher, and he is always going on about how much meat you need to live and how good it is. and then always raises the plant issue. always. i can never think of what to say. i've been asked it before from who i thought were intellectual people. as a philosophy student you think id be good at debating, lol. when faced with this question as a vegetarian i once replied 'are you a member of the carrot liberation front come to firebomb me?' their confused look gave me enough time to get away
    i often think more about the animals killed during the harvesting of plants. and i do think about the lives of plants as complex beings. so i try never to waste food, and just little things like never buying flowers, or have flowers bought for me etc.
    i just feel annoyed if i'm at my partners family's house at xmas, or with friends out, where i cant just up and leave. if i dont say anything i feel like i've lost, and that they would think they are right. if i say something they come up with a better answer. i feel so stupid and wonder if being a vegan is right if i cannot 100% back up my choices
    Vegan Forum: keeping me sane in the world of the ignorant.

  26. #176
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    i feel so stupid and wonder if being a vegan is right if i cannot 100% back up my choices
    Would you be able to back up your choices 100% if you were a non-vegan?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  27. #177
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most Annoying arguement

    Quote absentmindedfan View Post
    The best thing to say is 'if you're so worried about the welfare of plants, I'll do you a deal. You can watch a video of a slaughterhouse, and I'll watch a video of a strawberry harvest. Once we've watchted them we'll discuss our views further'
    Inspired by that classic comment, I've changed the thread title (for the moment)...
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  28. #178
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Plants have feelings too"

    i feel so stupid and wonder if being a vegan is right if i cannot 100% back up my choices
    I don't think it's really possible to put the case for veganism properly in a one-liner (funny though some of the one-liners are). You would need a longish and serious conversation and most people who casually challenge you or take the p about it aren't in the market for that type of conversation.

    It hasn't happened to me much recently but if someone tries to put me on the spot about veganism e.g. over a meal I usually ask them to talk to me about it later when we have more time and can concentrate. The ones who are just trying to pick an argument don't bother.

    their confused look gave me enough time to get away
    LOL! As you have identified, most of these people aren't actually concerned about the feeling of plants but are mentioning them in order to use an argument along the lines "you can't completely prevent suffering/destruction so there's no point in trying to prevent it at all". I think that argument is fairly easy to counter because most people would concede it's better to do less damage than more. And meat-eaters damage both animals and plants since the animals they eat have been fed on plants, etc.

  29. #179
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawber

    Yes, that's what I think too, Harpy. I don't feel the need to justify my choices to people but I will answer questions if asked.
    "Do what you can with what you have where you are."
    - Theodore Roosevelt

  30. #180
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Most Annoying arguement

    Quote Korn View Post
    Inspired by that classic comment, I've changed the thread title (for the moment)...
    Then perhaps you would like to give credit where credit is due.
    Quote Seaside View Post
    I can't remember the thread its on, but to those who claim that plants feel pain, I told someone to say "Let's make a deal. If you promise to watch a video of what goes on in a slaughterhouse, I'll watch a video of a strawberry harvest." I remember a few folks liking that one.

  31. #181
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawber

    Apologies Seaside, I couldn't remember who'd said it originally. Your genius lives on!

  32. #182
    satirecafe
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawber

    Plants might be able to feel, but there is no scientific evidence for it, so there is no reason why we should believe that they feel. It's just like UFOs, ghosts, creationism, big foot, the loch ness monster, etc etc. They might be real, but why should we believe that they are when there's no evidence?? Honestly, you might as well believe that a rock feels while you're at it.

  33. #183

    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawber

    Well, the argument I always give is that there is no natural reason for plants to feel pain in the same way that animals do. Plants might very well be able to feel the warmth of the sun in order to turn towards it, and this makes biological sense, but it would be completely useless for the plant to feel pain, as the plant would not be able to do anything about it.

    Our reason for feeling pain is basically as a warning system, or to alert us to something that's wrong. If I touch something very hot, I feel a burning sensation as an alert to take my hand away from the hot thing. If my stomach or back hurts, that alerts me to something going on inside that perhaps I should get checked out.

    Pain ultimately has been developed to help us avoid harm as much as possible. Pain itself is not the bad thing... pain is the hero messenger that tells us what we need to know in order to survive. This applies to humans and non-human animals, but not to plants, because feeling pain does not increase a plant's chances of survival.

    From this, we can deduce that plants don't feel pain, although they might feel sensations that would be beneficial to them, such as the warmth of the sun, or thirst, and these sorts of things.

  34. #184
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawber

    well, i don't know if your friends or the ppl you are mentionning are christians or at least believe in god. If they do, you can quote for them this scripture from the bible about what kind of diet god had originally designed for men. I have realised that quoting things from the bible when you have Xtian pple in front of you is helpful and they valid what you are saying.

    And God said, "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, I have given every green herb for food: and it was so." ~God, Genesis 1:29-30


    Then if they are kind of spiritual ppl but not Xtians you can mention other religions like Taoism and Jainism

    One should not injure, subjugate, enslave, torture, or kill any animal, living being, organism, or sentient being. This doctrine of nonviolence is immaculate, immutable, and eternal. Just as suffering is painful to you, in the same way it is painful, disquieting, and terrifying to all animals, living beings, organisms, and sentient beings.
    Jainism. Acarangasutra

    Buy captive animals and give them freedom.
    How commendable is abstinence that dispenses with the butcher!
    While walking be mindful of worms and ants.
    Be cautious with fire and do not set mountain woods or forests ablaze.

    Do not go into the mountain to catch birds in nets, nor to the water to
    poison fishes and minnows.
    Do not butcher the ox that plows your field.
    Taoism. Tract of the Quiet Way

  35. #185

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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    somewhere i read that 'pain' is reacting under stress. so even if a plant cannot 'feel' in the same way we do it experiences 'pain'. but more plants are killed to eat animals that humans, so (hating myself saying this) something must die, and i'd raather a patch of grass died than a patch of grass and 10 cows

  36. #186
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    Quote 1984 View Post
    It seems that anytime a debate rises over my lifestyle choice with an omnivorous friend, the very first thing they do is get defensive and yell " But you kill plants, their alive too!". While I mostly try to shrug it off, I have not yet been able to come up with a valid response to this point.

    I usually tell people, "I'm not a vegan because I think animals shouldn't be killed. I'm a vegan because I think humans aren't meant to cosume animals. I do think that plants are alive, but don't think I'm wrong to eat them because thats what we were meant to eat in the first place." Sometimes I'll throw in a "its called the food chain, duh!" in a humorus manner.

    They usually don't have any response to this.
    What do you mean, "why am I vegan?"

  37. #187
    boga
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    chickendude
    Re: "Plants have feelings too"
    Knowing the vast majority of us here to be vegan, I find it difficult that you so quickly justify the morality of eating plants. I would have just assumed that, knowing you openly protest the cruelties to animals, you would at least recognize the cruelties to plants. Regardless of whether or not a plant feels/registers pain, you have to admit that it has a life and a will to live it. An immobilized (yet sentient) man or woman would certainly not be regarded as food! He or she would have both the ability and the will to live, but would lack the functionalities to evade dangers. However, with a perfectly functional plant we feel we have the right to take away a life.

    I'm not saying you stop eating vegetables, just recognize that consuming vegetables IS killing a living organism, a fairly complex one at that. However, I've found that a fruitarian diet isn't terribly healthy, therefore the next least unethical food source is plants, and that is how I justify eating plants. However, it does bother me that in order to live I must kill, but eating out of necessity and eating out of want are two separate things. Flesh is something one can desire, but not something one needs. However, plants (until more research is done into solely fruit-based diets) are a necessity to our survival.

    A plant has a life, and who are we to take that away? It is the question the world will ask once it has converted to veganism.
    So, as i'm new to the forum, i started reading some old threads and this big got my attention.

    Since the days i stopped eating meat, i always faced the same question that the creator of this thread and a lot of other people made. Reading the arguments of everyone, i think that one of the most corrects were this one that i quoted.

    I think it's wrong to say that plants don't fell a thing just because they don't have a brain and a nervous system. They don't have the same that animals, human or not, have. But maybe they have one more superior and advanced that works in different aways... who knows??

    Other thing that i read and think is wrong, is that some people said that the plants were made for us to eat them. I don't believe that anything were made in this world just to became food for other thing.

    To answer that, i found another good argument:

    Sometimes I'll throw in a "its called the food chain, duh!"
    The food chain is the more basic way to see that and how nature exists. We eat plants not because they were meant to be eaten, but because we need to survive, just like all the other living beings in this planet eats other living beans to survive. Thats how the food chain works.

    Don't know if i'm saying something that is so basic that makes stupid or naive, but thats how the life in this planet exists.

    Anyway, i just wanted to share my point of view.

    Cheers

  38. #188
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    Knowing the vast majority of us here to be vegan, I find it difficult that you so quickly justify the morality of eating plants. I would have just assumed that, knowing you openly protest the cruelties to animals, you would at least recognize the cruelties to plants. Regardless of whether or not a plant feels/registers pain, you have to admit that it has a life and a will to live it.
    With all due respect, I think the idea that eating plants has anything to do with 'killing' or 'cruelty' is something that is so unconvincing that it is only used by people who have a hard time finding arguments that can justify their meat eating. These people don't even support their own ideas, and if someone who was charged for having killed or injured a human would say 'But... plants have feelings too', the judge and the jury would only say 'Yeah, right'. Not even people who are charged for breaking laws about animal abuse are using this "argument"...



    A plant has a life, and who are we to take that away? It is the question the world will ask once it has converted to veganism.
    In my personal experience, this is a question people rarely will ask, because they don't think it makes sense. They don't avoid eating plants themselves, they don't use 'plants have feelings too' as an excuse to harm or kill humans, and they can see and feel the clear difference between eating a plant and harming/killing an animal.

    They wouldn't make their dog suffer and try to get away with by saying that plants have feelings to, and we harm plants, so why not harm animals. Even if animals would have feelings, it doesn't make sense to harm animals, because this would mean harming both an animal and the plants the animal had been 'cruel' to when being raised for food. Causing harm intentionally - or unintentionally - in one situation doesn't justify causing harm in another situation.



    Maybe our teeth have feelings to, and feel pain when we eat? Maybe the soil have feelings, so we shouldn't walk? What if oxygen becomes sad when we breathe?

  39. #189
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    Maybe our teeth have feelings to, and feel pain when we eat? Maybe the soil have feelings, so we shouldn't walk? What if oxygen becomes sad when we breathe?

    Lol. he,he. I really cant be arsed with this plants have feelings rubbish either.
    If i keep a green bough in my heart my singing bird will come.

  40. #190
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    My answer to that is ..
    "Well I just hate all the plants - eat them! ... and the animals kill the plants so I love them!"
    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe-Albert Einstein

  41. #191
    boga
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    Quote Korn View Post
    With all due respect, I think the idea that eating plants has anything to do with 'killing' or 'cruelty' is something that is so unconvincing that it is only used by people who have a hard time finding arguments that can justify their meat eating. These people don't even support their own ideas, and if someone who was charged for having killed or injured a human would say 'But... plants have feelings too', the judge and the jury would only say 'Yeah, right'. Not even people who are charged for breaking laws about animal abuse are using this "argument"...

    ...

    Maybe our teeth have feelings to, and feel pain when we eat? Maybe the soil have feelings, so we shouldn't walk? What if oxygen becomes sad when we breathe?
    I'm sorry, but i have to disagree with your arguments.

    First off, i think we both know that the plants are a living being, just like animals and we humans. And just because they are different from us, doesn't mean that they can't do or fell something.

    If i follow your line or argument, i can say that dolphins can't communicate with each other, because they don't talk like you and me. But that's just wrong, because they can communicate, and in a way much better than ours: by telepathy!!

    So, i think that just because our "great science" says that plants don't fell pain or something like that, it doesn't mean it's true.

    And finally, about our teeth having feelings?

    I don't know where you got this idea, but the teeth are a part of our body, so, if something is wrong with it, WE fell it, not the teeth, because it is a part of us.

    The same thing happens with a tree. If i cut out a flower of it, the flower it self won't fell a thing. But if the tree can fell pain, it'll certainly fell something when you cut out it's flower.

    But hey, don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that, just because of this, we all need to go back and start eating pork chops!
    What i'm trying to say is that we vegans are supposed to have a different way on seeing the world and our Mother Earth. And i think that i'm not saying any bull***t, but just having my mind open for things that are different from what is told in school and by our great rocket scientists.

    Cheers!

  42. #192
    Mahk
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    Quote Fungus View Post
    My answer to that is ..
    "Well I just hate all the plants - eat them! ... and the animals kill the plants so I love them!"

    You sound just like Woody Allen there. He said, "I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, it's because I hate vegetables!"

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Like rocks, fungus (not the VF member I just quoted), plastic, and bacteria; plants don't have feelings.

    Quote boga
    But that's just wrong, because they can communicate, and in a way much better than ours: by telepathy!!
    True, dolphins communicate at a very high cognitive level, but you are joking about the "telepathy" part, right?

  43. #193
    boga
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    True, dolphins communicate at a very high cognitive level, but you are joking about the telepathy part, right?
    I'm not really joking. I know it is something that our great science couldn't tell yet, but once i watched on discovery channel an documentary about dolphins, where they told that dolphins indeed communicate with each other by telepathy, and they also said that dolphins aren't the only animals that could do that.

    But, who knows??

    Anyway, i said that just because i wanted to exemplify my point of view. I don't want to discuss about the communications of dolphins. Just want to say that, it's wrong to say that other living being can't do something just because they can't do the same way that we humans do.

  44. #194
    Qaxt
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    Korn, to be fair, saying plants obviously have absolutely no feelings is the exact way many people feel about animals, and many people have thought thusly for a very long time (I won't say thousands, because I don't know any thousand-year-olds. ). They are living, breathing (in a different way), eating (also in a different way) organisms, after all. No matter how vastly different they are from ourselves.

    My position is that we should cause as little harm as possible, and by eating plants, we're not eating the animal (and all the plants the animal ate). Also, you don't actually eat many whole plants. If you eat an apple, the apple tree lives on. If you eat a chicken, the chicken doesn't. That being said, I'd like to eventually give up vegetables that you kill when you eat them, though I don't know how possible that would be. But I thought the same thing about veganism! :P


    Sorry if I repeated a bunch of people. I wasn't motivated enough to read ten pages of replies. :P

  45. #195
    Mahk
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    Quote boga View Post
    I'm not really joking. I know it is something that our great science couldn't tell yet, but once i watched on discovery channel an documentary about dolphins, where they told that dolphins indeed communicate with each other by telepathy, and they also said that dolphins aren't the only animals that could do that.
    I think the important thing to note, however, is that the dolphins' telepathic abilities are not inherent to their species but rather were transfered through accelerated mind-control spiritual transformation brain waves sent by extra-terrestrials and angels. There are entire books devoted to the subject so we know it must be true.

    What's even more astounding is the Russian military/government disclosure showing that secret inter-species telepathy experiments between dolphins and cats were conducted as early as the 1960's. This recently leaked video, shown on Fox News, clearly shows that the cat telepathically knows to move only when the dolphin moves:
    [YOUTUBE]_uc_LwfWpSM[/YOUTUBE]
    I'm just bustin' on you, boga.

  46. #196
    boga
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    Quote Mahk View Post
    I'm just bustin' on you, boga.
    Yeah, i was thelepathic-thinking that you were!

  47. #197
    * petunia's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    mahk, is woody allen a vegetarian?

  48. #198
    Mahk
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    Petunia, according to this, yes.

  49. #199
    * petunia's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    hmmm, interesting.

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    Wink Re: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry ha

    I have heard the argument from people stating that "you're killing plants!"... but the big difference is that fruiting plants and seeding plants are meant to be eaten. You know this because they can continue to grow when their delicious tomatoes are plucked and when their fruits are harvested. It would be a rare sight to see an apple tree wither away from it's apples being harvested. In fact, seeding plants and pitted fruit trees, etc have always had things like beautifully scented, brightly colored and attractive fruits. It is the way plants and trees ensure their survival without us. Animals will eat the fruits and then further away, "deposit" the non-digested fruit seeds and pits in a little pile of their own homemade fertilizer, ensuring the possibility of the plants offspring growing. It's really that simple... and if you feel the need to contribute to this process, then grow your own garden or buy lots of veggies and fruits ensuring the farms that grow them will stay in business (I LOVE local farms!).
    With that in mind, if you eat a pig, you will not grow another pig from what you ate. You'll just grow your waistline and quite possibly some other health problems from eating our animal friends. YUCK!

    Healthy eating and veggie hugs!
    Lunakitty

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