Slaughterhouse vs. strawberry harvest: Can plants feel pain?

[Geoff]

I feel that there's a continuum, going from the simplest vegetable form right through to the most advanced animal (Me!). There's very little difference between the most complex plant and single celled animals such as amoebae.
Somewhere along that line there's a point beyond which we decide not to kill, but it's different for all of us. I will kill a tick to remove it from me or one of my animals but I don't kill leeches as they can easily be removed. It comes down to how much trouble we're prepared to go to in the name of compassion.
I had a massive tree fall across my driveway yesterday and, as it was riddled with termites, it would have been extremely difficult to cut it up without harming any of them so I compromised by killing as few as possible.

[kriz]

It gets kind of tiring when people approach you with skeptism like you just told them you belive in UFOS or something....I think the vegan concept is very easy to grasp whatever one agree or not.

[tails4wagging]

I had a meat eating friend who said as he gave me a vegan meal 'those vegitables died for you' he was being sarcastic. Why do folks feel the need to insult a vegan!!!

[phillip888]

" will kill a tick to remove it from me or one of my animal"

Um, I have removed quite a few ticks without killing them. You use large tweezers and twist them out gently.

The statement that all living things are the same but different is contradictory. A blood cell in my finger is not equal to my body, especially since my blood-cell is part of my body. At the same time I know that mysticism is the opposite of science (and any form of rational thought), and is fine with contradicting itself at every turn. Of course you can't argue a subject of 'plant feelings' with someone who believes things for no reason, as their beliefs can be contradictory or change rapidly to suit their emotional state or taste preference. People that suffer the psychotic condition of faith might respond to an argument of empathy (again only if they have it), and of course as someone stated before, things like fruit (the majority of edible plants are fruiting plants) are created by the plant for consumption. Can a person incapable of rational thought claim that a cow or person or chicken or whatever they're enamored with killing refute such an argument? Yah, but at least it stands a chance with people incapable of reason over one of reason.

[Hasha]

There's very little difference between the most complex plant and single celled animals such as amoebae.

I don't know about that one, Geoff. I would certainly sacrifice an insect (lots of them even!) to save a tree.

[dreama]

I keep an open mind on wether plants have feelings or not. I think they do. However. There is no such thing as a factory farmed plant. If you crammed plants in a dark smelly room they would just die. Unlike farm animals who will suffer instead.

I do however have a lot of respect for fruitarians. I just couldn't be one myself as I find veganism hard enough.

[ccgyrl]

If someone informs me about slave labor in China, you wouldn't find me trying to attack it as an argument and start undermining the "messenger". I would thank this person for caring enough to educate me on the issue.

if there were more people like you the world would be a better place!

[zena]

what ive done in the past about the plant feeling remark is gasp and then swear off food forever! i will only eat organicly non-chemicaly modifide home grown dirt! forever!!! and i will be naked! i want no part in killing those cute little inocent cotons!!

i can almost understand patronizing someone for having differnt views but arguing that plants suffer is a little *******ish even for me.

[adam antichrist]

I had a meat eating friend who said as he gave me a vegan meal 'those vegitables died for you' he was being sarcastic. Why do folks feel the need to insult a vegan!!!

because they're better than we are

[Mystic]

what ive done in the past about the plant feeling remark is gasp and then swear off food forever! i will only eat organicly non-chemicaly modifide home grown dirt! forever!!! and i will be naked! i want no part in killing those cute little inocent cotons!! .

But dirt is the home of the earthworm - how selfish are you?!

[kimmyk]

bottom line the single-most rediculous argument against vegetarianism/veganism known to man .

[veganrunner9]

I wanted to know as a concerened vegan if it is possible for plants to feel pain.

[Stu]

They don't have a brain, so they can't register pain.

Hey, I'm a poet who didn't know it.

[VeganJohn]

No, as they have no brain or central nervous system.

[Zanahorias!]

I must actually differ, somewhat. Being that I feel plants have souls, they most certainly can feel pain on a certain level spiritually.

Therefore, there is also a small amount of Karma that may be attributed to the consumption of plants. This, though, is all tied to how the crop, or whatever, is harvested, and, if you had your own garden, could certainly be diminished, if not eliminated. However, that I suppose is a topic for another discussion...

To answer your question: plants cannnot feel pain physically on the same level that we can, but there is that spiritual element, if you please to acknowelge it.

[tipsy]

plants dont have neurons, dont have pain receptors, or brains therefore, they dont feel pain....like you (**pinch**) or i.

but they are beautiful, and do grow better with sunshine and water, just like you and i.

and while i found some research supporting plants liking music, i also found some denying it.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...085621372.html

http://www.4to40.com/story/print.asp...smusicalplants

heheheeee

[tipsy]

i think ive gotten this one thrown at me once ('but plants have feelings too!!')

but it was directly after a cousin of mine (21 year old female, "vegitarian" cousin) questioned me about my veganism, and said
"but what about your shirt".... at wich point i looked at my own shirt and said....
"what! its cotton".... and she replied...get this...
"what about the sheep??!!?!"

this is when i explained to her that cotton is a plant and sheep are sheared for wool.

that was about when i got "but what about the plant's feelings!"

so i dont think ill ever be able to take that question seriously.

[Plunder Bunnie]

I always just say the same thing, because i know how i feel. To me, being vegan is about causing as little suffering as possible. Its not about never doing the wrong thing, or makign mistakes, its about being a moral person who does that little bit extra to prevent or lessen the suffering around themselves. It could be also be sponsering a child, feeding strays, or even volunterring your time at a shelter of any kind. When someone says that, first of they're trying to be right so they dont ahve to FEEL wrong. People are so definsive about these issues because they dont want to feel guilt or responsibility.
i tend to just tell them im doing all i can right now to prevent the suffering of other living creatures. And then quickly add, What are you doing?

[Michael Benis]

Plants certainly do have a different central nervous system, and despite having mechanisms such as thorns etc, they can't run away. The important point is, many more plants are killed in order to maintain animals - more than 80 percent of all grains, for example, is fed to animals. Moreover, if your friend could choose whether to eat a carrot or a cat - which would she choose?

That's normally how I reply. You need to kill around ten times as many plants to get their nutrition through an animal, plus of course you need to kill the animal too. It's very simple maths: even a bigot can appreciate it

Cheers

Michael

[Michael Benis]

I had a meat eating friend who said as he gave me a vegan meal 'those vegitables died for you' he was being sarcastic. Why do folks feel the need to insult a vegan!!!

Because somewhere in there, they have feelings too

Cheers

Michael

[Glen]

Stupid Omni: "Plants have feelings too you know"
Me: "No, they don't."

End of.

[sugarmouse]

cudnt have put it better glen:

I eat everything that nature voluntarily gives: fruits, vegetables, and the products of plants. But I ask you to spare me what animals are forced to surrender: meat, milk, and cheese. ~Author Unknown

[toma_Paella!!!]

I have read some of you guys talking about the central nervous system of plants...
do you actually know what a central nervous system is? a brain. And without it, no being can feel pain, or pleasure, NOTHING.

If plants have mechanisms to protect themselves it's just something automatic, it doesn't have anything to do with them being able to experience pain or having an actual desire for life.

Plants, as they lack all of the above, are physically unable to feel pain, and so a vegan lifestyle does not bring any more suffering to this world...

And of course, if somebody ever asks you about plant suffering (the same person who doesn't give a f**k about killing lambs, for example), that person's obviously laughing at you... (unless it's a fruitarian indeed, hehe,which should be also respected)

[On the Coast]

So, I'm a Botanist - , and in my 3rd year at Uni, we did all these crazy experiments testing the 'Sentience, or Reaction Quotient in Vascular Plants'.
One experiment included things like two plant specimens, from the same Parent Stock, with all the same environmental conditions, except, one was talked to soothingly, told how beautiful it was, music played for it. The other was yelled at, called names, etc.
Lo and behold, the verbally abused plant died within 3 weeks of the start of conditioning, in every case, whereas the coddled plant thrived with vigorous growth.

In another experiment, we started by isolating one plant from a community of similar stock, (same Parent Stock), all raised in the same environment, with the same nutritional input. The isolated plant was then gradually exposed to higher levels of heat, with a timed duration between exposure, until finally resulting in drying, wilting, and irreparable burn. Next, a second plant was seperated, and similarly exposed, while 'reaction' was monitored in the remaining members of the community. In all studies except one, the remaining plants in the community, exhibited 'defensive' traits and characteristics, such as weeping, folding of leaf surfaces, and curling of the crown, even though none of them were actually exposed to a heat increase.
The one test where these traits were not marked, was when the isolated plants were removed to an area with a solid border seperating them from the rest of the community. The three times the community did go into 'defense', the isolated plants were removed to distances of 60', 120', and 180'.

We did another test involving harvesting field crops. In each case, regardless of plant type, (i.e. - root / leaf / stock fruit) the distance of 'defense traits', grew exponentially, with the distance of harvested plants. It averaged 30' of 'defense' to every 5+' of harvest.

Anyhoo - we did a number of other studies, involving passive interaction, element exposure, and environment stimuli. In each case, there was definite evidence of intake and communication on the part of plant communities. One reason I view eating animals the same as I view eating plants as I view eating humans, (on a philosophical and moral level). It is all just life cycle (though personally, I feel eating flesh and animal products is super nasty ). I feel, with our brain capacity, (and considering the amount we use), it is possible for us to develop alternatives to suffering. But in the mean time, we have to survive, and we are all products of our environment. Though I daydream about the time when our children's children's children, are all breatharian
(and probably of an indestinguishable race and sex ).......

[adam antichrist]

That's very interesting. I am of the opinion that energy can be detected (even by us Humans) and fluctuations in energy are perceptible. However there is no machine or implement yet invented which may measure this.

But some of your observations fit into this idea, largely the plants dying after being abused... the negative energy they were exposed to is likely to be a factor.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad hippy or anything; I just really believe there is more to parapsychology than seances and tarot cards and perhaps one day we'll have a clearer understanding of such phenomena.

[eve]

And I feel that when an animal is taken to the abattoir, (and there are billions each year) all the horror, helplessness, the sights and smells, quite apart from the chemicals that are injected etc, go into the flesh and are ingested by meat eaters day in day out. It is any wonder at the state of the world today?

[Veritable Vegan]

This is an interesting thread as it is something I have been looking into for quite sometime. The debate on whether it is vegan to eat plants is well covered by 'gertvegan' - who has put the argument across most intlligently (and most elegantly).
Veganism means many things to many people and generally I think all vegans see it as relating to avoidence of animal and animal derived products. Whilst it is certainly understandable that vegan individuals may look further into the ethics of food consumption I do not see it as un-vegan to eat fruits, vegetables, seeds, nuts etc. I think the avoidence of eating all food that could possibly suffer from consumption lies within a 'spiritual' realm and not within an ethical /compassionate arena. 'Jains' are an excellant example of total abstenance of all 'living' elements (including some plant based organisms) and yet they allow milk consumption! Therefore is it ethical to drink milk but not to eat potatoes? I don't think there is an absolute answer - especially when we look at cultural differences etc. It is very much down to the individual, their journey through life and their own interpretation of right and wrong.
What does every one else think about this? Are their any 'jains' on the forum?

[Gliondrach]

You could say that, yes, you kill plants. What's the alternative? Slow death by starvation or a quick suicide? You have to cause the death of plants to live. No one needs animal flesh or products to live. People who eat them do so because they choose to, even though they have an alternative. Then you could point out that plants aren't alive in the same sense as animals are alive. There are robots which can avoid certain things, like obstacles. They are not alive and they do not feel pain.

[Gliondrach]

Have you guys ever heard of an experiment called the Secret Life Of Plants And Trees? It was conducted in the 60's and it had plants connected to lie detector tests to see if they could produce emotion. When the plant was given water it reacted positively and it showed on graph it produced...same goes with other things, when a plant was burned it reacted negatively. Then they also found out that it could tell when humans were lying or telling the truth. It's very interesting, I suggest you guys heck it out.

I have that book, 'The Psychic Power Of Plants' by John Whitman.and 'The Secret Powers Of Plants'. by Brett L. Bolton. I don't believe the them. I heard of another experiment. I don't know if it was done by Cleve Backster, one of the plant experimenters, or someone else, but some human blood was wired up and gave similar responses. Now, I don't believe that my blood can feel pain or fear. The organism that it comes from - me - could, but not my blood. As I said, I don't believe that those experiments were real. If they were, they could have been influenced, telepathically or in some other way, by the experimenters. But, as I said, I don't believe in all this. Those experiments were conducted at the same time that Erik von Daniken was writing his strange books about visits of people from space being behind all ancient myths. There seemed to be something in the air in those days with one barmy idea following another.

[Gliondrach]

Were you being serious, On The Coast? I believe in some mad things, like telepathy and psychokinesis but I would say that the plants that reacted to what was happening to other plants were receiving chemical messages. I'm not sure how the abused plants managed to react, though.

[green_dreads]

After reading through this thread, I'd say the answer most of you have come to is the obvious - that killing a plant is a different ethical question to killing an animal.

Here's my argument.

When I wash, I kill whole societies of micro-organisms. MO can communicate, it can organize into societies, MO can even decide to kill off the weak for the better of the group. So the very idea of killing nothing is at best, completely impossible. I agree with what John said - even comparing killing a non-concious organism to killing a concious one is a worthless debate. Flies, most arachnids, etc can be said to have no conciousness and as such I have no problem when them being killed, its mammals, more intelligent aqua life, bird life and so forth that I object to killing in the modern methods.

I don't think I've ever said 'Meat Means Murder'. If you were stuck in a jungle among poor vegetation and managed to capture and kill a boar, I have no ethical issue with that. Its factory farming, animal cruelty that I'm against. When have plants ever been abused as animals have, and, without the same level of conciousness as a chicken or a pig, how is this even possible? I say again; its a futile argument.

[ZM]

Personally, I believe that plants have souls; they're just a different brand of "creature" inside the "shell". That said, I don't believe they feel pain; their bodies aren't made for it. Nor do I believe that plants incarnate often into animals -- like I said, a different brand of creature altogether.

Martin, you believe in telepathy? PM me -- we may have similar experiences, or at least similar beliefs.

[adam antichrist]

If you believe that animals have souls, why not plants? They are equally possible/ludicrous ideas

ETA: Doh! Stupid I, I misread your post to say you didn't believe plants have souls...

However it makes my post look even more cynical, so I like it better still

[Gliondrach]

Martin, you believe in telepathy? PM me -- we may have similar experiences, or at least similar beliefs.

You don't have the PM option enabled so I couldn't PM you. I have sent a telepathic message instead.

[adam antichrist]

Send it again G, I think I got it instead...

...and don't be ridiculous, N*Sync have already done that song...

[Gliondrach]

N*Sync? Never heard of them. I'll bet their not as good as Freddie and The Dreamers.

[Cairidh]

do you think they're conscious?

[DancingWillow]

Hi Cairidh

You might be interested in the book "The Secret Life of Plants"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...Fencoding=UTF8

[Tigerlily]

No, I don't mind eating and killing plants, as they have no feelings and have no central nervous sytem and such.

[Cairidh]

I keep reading articles about that book. Here's one of them:

The Secret Life of Plants


Cleve Backster was an American expert on lie detectors. In 1966, using a lie detector, he accidentally discovered that plants have high-level emotional activities that were similar to those of human beings. He then conducted a series of studies that amazed the world.

Plants Have Feelings!
One day, Backster connected a lie detector to the leaves of a dracaena, commonly known as a “dragon tree.” He wanted to see how long it would take for the leaves to react when he poured water on the plant’s roots. In theory, a plant will increase its conductivity and decrease its resistance after it absorbs water, and the curve recorded on graph paper should have gone upward. But in actuality, the line that was drawn curved downward. When a lie detector is connected to a human body, the pen records different curves according to the changes in the person’s mood. The reaction of the dragon tree was just like the undulation of human mood swings. It seemed that it was happy when it drank water.
Plants Have ESP
Backster wanted to see if the plant would have any other reactions. According to past experience, Backster knew that a good way to elicit a strong reaction from a person is to threaten that person. So Backster dunked the leaves of the plant into hot coffee. No reaction. Then he thought of something more terrifying: burn the leaves that were connected to the lie detector. With this thought, even before he went to get a match, a bullish curve rapidly appeared on the graph paper. When he came back with a match, he saw that another peak appeared on the curve. It was likely that when the plant saw he was determined to start burning, it got frightened again. If he showed hesitation or reluctance to burn the plant, the reactions recorded by the lie detector were not so acute. And when he merely pretended to take action to burn the leaves, the plant had almost no reactions. The plant was even able to distinguish true intentions from false ones. Backster nearly rushed out into the street to shout, “Plants can think! Plants can think!” With this astonishing discovery, his life was changed forever.
Later, when Backster and his colleagues did experiments around the country with different instruments and different plants, they observed similar results. They discovered that even if leaves were picked off from a plant and cut into pieces, the same reactions were recorded when these pieces were placed near the lie detector electrodes. When a dog or an unfriendly person suddenly came in, the plant reacted too.
Plants Are Experts at Detecting Lies
Generally for experiments involving lie detectors, electrodes are connected to a suspect and then the suspect is asked meticulously designed questions. Everyone has a clear-headed side, which is usually called “conscience.” Therefore, no matter how many reasons and excuses one gives, when lying or committing a bad deed, that person knows clearly that it is a lie, a bad deed. Hence, the body’s electric field changes, and this change is what is recorded by the equipment.
Backster did an experiment in which he connected the lie detector to a plant and then asked a person some questions. As a result, Backster discovered that the plant could tell if the person was lying or not. He asked the person what year he was born in, giving him seven choices and instructing him to answer “no” to all of them, including the correct one. When the person answered “no” to the correct year, the plant reacted and a peak was drawn on the graph paper.
Dr. Aristide Esser, the director of medical research at the Rockland State hospital in New York, repeated the experiment by asking a man to incorrectly answer questions in front of a plant the man had nurtured and cared for since it was a seedling. The plant did not cover up for its owner at all. Incorrect answers were reflected on the graph paper. Esser, who had not believed Backster, saw for himself that Backster’s theories were correct.
Plants Can Recognize People
In order to test how well a plant can recognize things, Backster called on six students, blindfolded them, and asked them to draw lots from a hat. One of the choices had instructions to uproot one of the two plants in the room and destroy it by stomping on it. The “murderer” had to do the deed alone, and no one else was to know the culprit’s identity, including Backster. In that way, the remaining plant could not sense who the “killer” was from other people’s thoughts. The experiment was set up so that the plant would be the exclusive witness.
When the remaining live plant was connected to a lie detector, every student was asked to pass by it. The plant had no reactions to five students. But when the student who had committed the crime walked by, the electronic pen started drawing frantically. This reaction indicated to Backster that plants are able to remember and identify the person or thing that causes them harm.
Remote Sensitivity
Plants have close ties with their owners. For example, when Backster returned to New York from New Jersey, he found from the records on the graph paper that all his plants had reactions. He wondered if the plants were indicating that they felt “relieved” or were “welcoming” him back. He noticed that the time of the plants’ reactions was the moment when he decided to return home from New York.
Sensitivity to Life on a Microscopic Level
Backster discovered that the same fixed curves would be drawn on the graph paper when plants seemed to sense the death of any living tissue, even on the cellular level. He noticed this by accident when he was mixed some jam into the yogurt he was going to eat. Apparently, the preservatives in the jam killed some of the lactobacilli in the yogurt, and the plants sensed this. Backster also found that the plants reacted when he ran hot water in the sink. It seemed they reacted to the death of bacteria in the drain. To test his theory, Backster did an experiment and found that when brine shrimp were put into boiling water via an automatic mechanism that did not require human intervention, the plants had very strong reactions.
The Heartbeat of an Egg
Again by accident, Backster noticed plant reactions one day when he cracked an egg. He decided to pursue this experiment and connected the egg to his equipment. After nine hours, the graph paper records indicated the heartbeats of an embryonic chick – 160 to 170 beats per minute – the same as a chick embryo that had stayed in an incubator for three or four days. However, the egg was an unfertilized egg that was bought from a store. There was no circulatory system inside it either. How could Backster explain the egg’s pulse? In experiments done at Yale University Medical School during the 1930s to 1940s, the late professor Harold Saxton Burr discovered that there were energy fields around plants, trees, human beings, and cells. Backster thought Burr’s experiments offered the only insight into his egg experiment. He decided to put his plant experiments aside for a time to explore the implications of the egg experiments and how his findings might relate to the issue regarding the beginning of life.

[Tigerlily]

I'm still going to eat plants.

[Cairidh]

you savage you

[Tigerlily]

*rips into a broccoli floret*

[Cairidh]

*cries*
actually aren't broccolli florets a flower? they're not the plant itself, so eating them doesn't kill the plant....??

[Blueshark]

Hey you know you doing some killing now ...just using the electricity for your computer

Cry on that.

[Cairidh]

what does the electricity kill?

[Blueshark]

How do you think it is generated?

Have you heard of pollution...global warming etc?

[Tigerlily]

Water powered energy also may kill fish and destroy ecosystems.

[Cairidh]

I use eco electricity...I think it's from wind....I think the wind turbines kill birds.....I think I'll kill myself...no wait that would mean killing a living thing....

[Tigerlily]

Yeah, it's quite impossible to avoid everything in life.

Being vegan is about being the best you can possibly, realisticly be. It's not about purity.