Slaughterhouse vs. strawberry harvest: Can plants feel pain?

[Haniska]

Sometimes when I eat potatoes I feel bad for killing them. I also feel this way towards sprouts (some part of me finds them adorable).
This is part of the reason why I was once a fruitarian, but recently I decided that plants have no purpose to feel pain and therefore do not. If they cannot run, why would God be so cruel to make them feel pain for no reason?
It is probably a very silly thing; I actually sometimes have similar feelings when I eat "alternative" foods such as soy milk and soy icecream. Oh, and once when I was a fruitarian (I wasn't a pure fruitarian, I also ate seeds) I got some bean curd from the chinese place and felt guilty for the lusty way I craved the protein. THAT might have been symptoms of an eating disorder but anyway:

Has anyone experienced these feelings with these foods or other foods?

[Korn]

Hi, thank you for being willing to not post the same message several places. Maybe you could delete the copy of the post above from the Raw Food-thread?

[Freckles]

OMG. I love Tigerlily's avatar!!

Anyway, I would have to agree with the assumption that plants do not feel pain. They simply don't seem to have the physicality for it. Or the evolutionary necessity of it. Of course, I do believe that plant lives are no less valuable or fruitful(lol) than ours: I harbor no delusions of grandeur that would allow me to assign such value to the lives of other beings... but I really do not see the harm in harvesting these beings for nutritive purposes ... when it seemingly does not cause physical pain or, presumably, what we would consider sadness. It does sometimes depress me that no matter WHAT I do ... I'm always going to be harming something, somehow ... I feel guilty for idling my car, taking long showers/etc - and rightfully so. It seems that humans are such destructive forces - so willing to extinguish life for convenience. And I'm one of them... -sigh-

[insubordination]

Sorry if this is mentioned on previous pages. My comeback to 'but plants feel too' is:

I want to cause the least possible harm to stay alive so it is better to eat plants directly than eat animals who have eaten plans throughout their lives.

It's much better than getting into an argument about whether plants feel.

[Tigerlily]

OMG. I love Tigerlily's avatar!!

Thanks.

[Cairidh]

Sometimes when I eat potatoes I feel bad for killing them. I also feel this way towards sprouts (some part of me finds them adorable).
This is part of the reason why I was once a fruitarian, but recently I decided that plants have no purpose to feel pain and therefore do not. If they cannot run, why would God be so cruel to make them feel pain for no reason?
It is probably a very silly thing; I actually sometimes have similar feelings when I eat "alternative" foods such as soy milk and soy icecream. Oh, and once when I was a fruitarian (I wasn't a pure fruitarian, I also ate seeds) I got some bean curd from the chinese place and felt guilty for the lusty way I craved the protein. THAT might have been symptoms of an eating disorder but anyway:

Has anyone experienced these feelings with these foods or other foods?

Yes
but why were you guilty about eating beancurd when you ate seeds? Beans/seeds/same thing.
How long were you fruitarian?

[Korn]

I don't get it. Is eating seeds/grains/beans wrong in your opinion because of the way they are grown, which may include the risk of harming/killing ie. mice during the modern harvest process? If you walk in a forest, you may kill insects too, they may hide beneath a leave... are you ever feeling 'guilty' if you have been guilty of talking a walk? If you are against eating grains or seeds grown in a modern way, and if this bothers you, why not grow your own grains/seeds?

[Cairidh]

Are you talking to me? It's none of my business what other people eat, but I won't eat grains etc because millions of fieldmice, voles, rabbits, frogs, ground nesting birds, their chicks, their eggs are massacred when the grains are harvested. It's not a modern thing, before the combine harvester was invented, field workers used to go around with pitchforks and spades deliberately killing the animals. Now they get chewed up by the machines, but I don't think that makes it ok.
I don't want to discuss this, as if I do, I will be accused of "attacking" vegans/veganism.

[insubordination]

Hmmm, never thought about that before. I'm never going to say a Fruitarian diet or raw diet (or whatever) is wild or wacky because most people think my vegan diet is crazy. My (sensible) brother once called me an extremist.

[harpy]

I think it's a legitimate concern that animals get killed when grains and (I suppose) other plant crops are cultivated and harvested.

Growing one's own stuff and harvesting it carefully would probably be the most logical response to that problem -but I can't see myself doing it any time soon unfortunately. In the meantime one reason I try to choose organic stuff is that I believe organic growers cause a bit less damage to the environment, including the animals that are hanging around in the vicinity of the crops.

[Korn]

Are you talking to me?

I know that it does upset you to 'kill plants', but no, I wasn't talking to you - the question was for Haniska.

[Haniska]

Yes
but why were you guilty about eating beancurd when you ate seeds? Beans/seeds/same thing.
How long were you fruitarian?

Hi Cairidh,

I actually felt guilty for the seeds I ate also (mostly wheat and occasionly tree nuts; wouldn't pull up peanuts to eat them). I wasn't really aware at the time of mice being killed; but I felt guilty because I knew the entire plant was pulled up. I still ate seeds because it was less expensive than going all the way, and I saw grains as being closer to the ideal than beans; partly because of the cuteness factor of sprouts that I mentioned before. No that doesn't make sense still but that was my reasoning. There was also the fact that I was never a big bean eater and the fruitarian movement was all about how anything but fruit was excessive protein.

As for the reason I felt guilty with the bean curd: It seemed to awaken in me a lust that I likened to a lust for animal foods, particularly chicken, and at the time I didn't like that. I do think that was partially a purity thing I was having at the time. Now I don't mind being lustful towards my food
(of course I am trying to stay my addictions but that is another thread).

I think that I was "fruitarian" for at least 9 months and maybe 2 yrs (long time ago) which converted into a semi-raw food diet. This was actually a diet that I had read about and referred to as the "Jesus diet" which involved eating plants that were not killed by the eating. That is to say things that grew above ground. I had some days that I was 100% on the diet but I still ate grains as I was still poor.

[Haniska]

I don't get it. Is eating seeds/grains/beans wrong in your opinion because of the way they are grown, which may include the risk of harming/killing ie. mice during the modern harvest process? If you walk in a forest, you may kill insects too, they may hide beneath a leave... are you ever feeling 'guilty' if you have been guilty of talking a walk? If you are against eating grains or seeds grown in a modern way, and if this bothers you, why not grow your own grains/seeds?

I actually used to have, and may occasionally still have guilty feelings when I walk in the woods or even on the grass. However, I no longer let these feelings get the best of me. I decided that if being compassionate seperated me that much from nature then I needed to subdue myself. As far as that being right or wrong I take no stand.

[Haniska]

[quote=Cairidh]Yes quote]

Cairidh,

What foods make you feel guilty and why? Do you eat them anyway?

[indianvegan]

Water powered energy also may kill fish and destroy ecosystems.

Tigerlily, I agree with you. It is tough to stop ourselves in modern living. How can one can know about the source of production of electricity ?

Jain saints do not use any kind of electricity at all because of the reason of Ahimsa.

Manish Jain

[Tigerlily]

That's my point, if one wants to live in society, it's pretty much impossible to avoid everything which may or may not harm animals.

[indianvegan]

As far as, Plants life is concerned, I would like to share here, religious views :

Jainism---

Plants life is concerned sacred..so one should try to protect or minimise use of them...so many Jains do not eat Vegetables on certain days in a month...some keep fasting once/twice a month...because of fasting...generally on fasting days, people escape many kinds of violence..some do fasting without water even...to them Plants have touch sense...they feel touch of foreign body. On the same ground, eating of sprouts is conisdered bad, many followers do not eat sprouts...similarly there are number of Jains who are not eating roots vegetables ( me too ) for the reaason that they contain countless microorganism...there is so importance given to save these micro organism..same advice has been given for "water" too..all Jain saints use boiled water, they do not boil themselves, they visit to various residents/home to beg boiled water... they use this boiled water for certain hours only... and it is believe that, after few hours of boiling new germs comes up in that boiled water...so take another round and bring fresh batch of boiled water.....even they do not use any Vehicle...so no question of pollution/killings...they do not construct any home for themselves....they do not wear shoes even to save visible/invisible insects on roads...they do not keep money with them...they are very much on fastings...inspite all these much importance to Ahimsa and micro organism, Jain Saints are using Animal Milk. There are around 10000-15000 Jain saints in billions of Indian population.

Apart from Animal Milk, their life is most compassionate. One can hats off for them.

Manish Jain

[Cairidh]

Cairidh,

What foods make you feel guilty and why? Do you eat them anyway?

When I was 4 I started helping my Grandpa in the garden. The first thing he let me do was plant seeds and bulbs. And then I'd water them and nurture them. So far so good. But then when they grew into vegetables, he wanted me to me pull them up!!!!!!!!! And I couldn't. No way. So then I knew that vegetables were dead plants, and when I was offered them at dinner time I was horrified and wouldn't eat them. I'd pull my face in horror at the vegetables and then sit and eat a plate of mince and mash because I didn't know that mince is a cow (I'm not very bright!) and mash is a plant.

I wanted to eat raw veg because I was constantly being told they were healthy but I couldn't. People at my school used to take raw carrots in their packed lunch boxes, and it upset me to watch them eating them. On the school field at playtime I used to find plants that had been completely uprooted and I'd be very upset, and smuggle them up my jumper into the toilets and give them water and wrap them in paper towels. Then usually one of the evil dinner ladies would find me, and scream and shout at me, and throw the plant in the bin.

I stopped trying to help my Grandpa in the garden because he'd always want me to either pull up vegetables, or do the weeding (arghhh! no!), or the digging, which I couldn't do because of chopping the worms. As for sprouts, I can't be doing with them at all. Germinate them and start them growing and nurture them for a week and then eat them. No, I can't. I keep trying to, I've even bought an automatic sprouter, but I can't. And I can't harvest herbs.

Killing animals upsets me, obviously, but trying not to do so, is an intellectual decision I make.
Trying not to kill plants isn't an intellectual thing, it's purely emotional. It upsets me.

When I was 10 I realised meat is dead animals so I stopped eating it. When I was 12 I found out whats wrong with milk and eggs so stopped eating them. I started eating vegetable burgers/fingers/grills etc because I figured had to eat *something* and vegetables were less harmful than the alternatives, and the burgers etc didn't look like dead plants, so unless I thought about it, I wasn't aware of what I was eating, so it didn't upset me. But I still couldnt eat veg that looked like veg.

When I was 13 I read about the harvesting of grains killing fieldmice etc so stopped eating grains. I had to eat something, and I told myself if I was going to eat potatoes I might as well eat other veg, so I started eating vegetables - plain veg - and I found if I ate them every day it upset me less/anaesethised me to it.
Then I realised soya, beans, lentils and seeds are probably the same as grains where fieldmice are concerned....so I stopped eating them. And realised that really the only thing you can eat without killing something is fruit.

So I ate just fruit. I could have eaten nuts and the fruit-seeds, I didn't think there was anything wrong with this. But I didn't. I scooped out the seeds from tomatoes and cucumber and sucked, not chewed, berries so the seeds would leave my body in tact.I knew this wasn't logical or rational - I didn't think there was anything wrong with eating plant seeds, they were never intended to ALL grow into plants - it's like a male humans seeds. They're not a proper living thing, they're just seeds. But I didn't like to eat them.This was quite different from me being upset about eating plants however.

When I was little my mum was always wanting me to send my teddy bears to orphans in Romania - and I couldn't do it because I felt sorry for the teddy bears being sent into those awful conditions. I knew this was ridiculous - teddy bears aren't alive, can't see their surroundings, don't have a clue what their living conditions are, can't think, can't feel. I knew all this. But it still upset me and I still felt sorry for them so I couldn't send them to Romania. And it was the same thing with eating seeds, even though I knew they weren't alive. This didn't extend to grains however as cereals are a much lower form of life than green plants and I didn't mind killing them, or their seeds.

Anyway after 6 months on just fruit I had to start eating other food again, and found I was now completely unable to tolerate cooked food which made me very ill (had no affect on me before!!!!!!!!!) So now I have to be 100% raw.

Which means I have to eat veg and I even eat beansprouts sometimes (shop bought, can't sprout them myself).However I still go days where I eat just fruit, or just fruit and nuts, until I get weak or tearful (blood sugar levels up the chute) and have to eat veg.And I never feel healthy, hence I posted on here "what should one eat?" because I really don't know

Now I know about freeganism I wish I'd done that instead. But I'm not sure if you can be a healthy raw vegan freegan.....??? I'm also too wimpy and too proud to go dumpster diving!

[Cairidh]

As far as, Plants life is concerned, I would like to share here, religious views :

Jainism---

I was very relieved when I found out about Jainism. I couldn't be *that* mad, there was a whole religion who felt the same as me!

I'm not as bad/good as the Jains though - I have no problem killing bacteria. In fact I relish it.
I'd probably feel differently if I could see them and if I knew anything about them, ie if I found out how advanced they are. At the moment I'm happily deluding myself they are barely alive. Ignorance is bliss.

Also Jains believe wood and metal feel pain - I totally disagree with this. Wood is dead. It can't feel pain any more than a dead human body. And I don't believe metal was ever alive.
I respect other peoples opinions on this however. I have never studied metal, or its pain threshold, so what do I know?

[Geoff]

Fruit is not always cruelty free:
'The IUCN status of the spectacled flying fox (Pteropus conspicillatus) is presently being reviewed, as there is abundant evidence that there has been a steep decline in their numbers over the past 30 or so years. Much of the reason for this decline stems from a traditional hatred of flying foxes, particularly by fruit farmers who often go to great lengths to persecute these animals. Spectacled flying foxes are largely restricted to the Wet Tropics of Queensland, north of Cardwell/Mission Beach. In the Cairns district alone at least 6 major flying fox camps have been obliterated by burning, gassing and explosives over the past 30 years. Flying fox camps near Ingham and Innisfail have been similarly treated. Despite their listing as protected fauna, shooting, electrocution, and lately, poisoning are being used by farmers to control animals raiding exotic fruit orchards (lychees, rambutans and even bananas). Queensland farmers are able to obtain a Damage Mitigation Permit from Queensland National Parks, but rarely if ever abide by the conditions, and are never prosecuted for breaching them.'

[Cairidh]

Fruit is not always cruelty free:

Thanks for the quote! blimey.

[Geoff]

The quote is from: http://www.austrop.org.au/index.html
There are some lovely pics under 'Flying Fox Issues'

[Cairidh]

I don't think I want to see the pics, they'll put me off fruit and I'll starve to death.

[Cairidh]

Maybe I could pay someone to go dumpster diving for me??

[indianvegan]

Cairidh, there few human beings (they are in Jain community) in India, who can not see cutting of vegetables/fruits. It is not a joke but truth. You will wonder, there is a different word used by sensible Jain women in place of "cutting" ( in hindi we say " katna ") instead of saying cutting of vegetable they say repairing of vegetable ( repairing here means " Sudharna " ). Only intention behind it is we should not even use cruel word for living things.

As far as Wood/Metal/Other Mineral Ores are concerned, if you go in to root of them, you will find Plants/trees..Mines..and you know how important is to save them. These too have touch sense. ---Jainism.


Manish Jain

[Tigerlily]

Maybe I could pay someone to go dumpster diving for me??

Would that not be freeganism then?

[Haniska]

[quote=Cairidh]When I was 4 I started helping my Grandpa in the garden. The first thing he let me do was plant seeds and bulbs. And then I'd water them and nurture them. So far so good. But then when they grew into vegetables, he wanted me to me pull them up!!!!!!!!! And I couldn't. No way. So then I knew that vegetables were dead plants, and when I was offered them at dinner time I was horrified and wouldn't eat them. I'd pull my face in horror at the vegetables and then sit and eat a plate of mince and mash because I didn't know that mince is a cow (I'm not very bright!) and mash is a plant.
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I had delusions as a child that meat was made in the same fashion that bread was- from flour. Flour of course came from the grocery store. What really shows you how bright I was was that my dad hunts and I would help him when he came home (I won't go into any detail here). I'm thinking that I was hugely in denial because I just Can't be that unobservant.
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So I ate just fruit. I could have eaten nuts and the fruit-seeds, I didn't think there was anything wrong with this. But I didn't. I scooped out the seeds from tomatoes and cucumber and sucked, not chewed, berries so the seeds would leave my body in tact.I knew this wasn't logical or rational - I didn't think there was anything wrong with eating plant seeds, they were never intended to ALL grow into plants - it's like a male humans seeds. They're not a proper living thing, they're just seeds. But I didn't like to eat them.This was quite different from me being upset about eating plants however.
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I have this same thing, even as I am picking them out I ask myself "What are you doing? If you actually planted these soon you would run out of room for them, and certainly the city dump is no place for seeds." I've stealed myself against these feelings largely, but when I am in the country I try to throw them outside.

When I was little my mum was always wanting me to send my teddy bears to orphans in Romania - and I couldn't do it because I felt sorry for the teddy bears being sent into those awful conditions. I knew this was ridiculous - teddy bears aren't alive, can't see their surroundings, don't have a clue what their living conditions are, can't think, can't feel. I knew all this. But it still upset me and I still felt sorry for them so I couldn't send them to Romania. And it was the same thing with eating seeds, even though I knew they weren't alive. This didn't extend to grains however as cereals are a much lower form of life than green plants and I didn't mind killing them, never mind their seeds.

Does having this example show you that these are just "feelings" and help you to eat more healthfully?

quote]

[Cairidh]

Would that not be freeganism then?

Well if they weren't freegan themselves I'd be giving them money to spend on products that harm animals...
but if they were freegan themselves I think it would be ok!

[indianvegan]

" Our desires are killing earth and environment so we should be able to draw a line between "desires" and "necessities" hence live simply so that others may live simply" --Gandhiji


Manish Jain

[Cairidh]

I had delusions as a child that meat was made in the same fashion that bread was- from flour. Flour of course came from the grocery store. What really shows you how bright I was was that my dad hunts and I would help him when he came home (I won't go into any detail here). I'm thinking that I was hugely in denial because I just Can't be that unobservant.

Well fake meats are often made from wheat so it's not that silly....if you'd been born to vegan parents, you'd have been right
Yes I think you, I and most meateaters must have huge cases of denial, because how can we not realise a chicken leg is a chicken's leg.
Maybe its so horrifying, our subconsciences deliberately shield us from it.

I have this same thing, even as I am picking them out I ask myself "What are you doing? If you actually planted these soon you would run out of room for them, and certainly the city dump is no place for seeds." I've stealed myself against these feelings largely, but when I am in the country I try to throw them outside.

I'm glad it's not just me I mean I know lots of other people like this exist but I've never come accross one before

Does having this example show you that these are just "feelings" and help you to eat more healthfully?

Yes.

[Haniska]

[Cairidh]

I don't think I want to see the pics, they'll put me off fruit and I'll starve to death.

I'd never heard of flying foxes until you posted that article. I just went to a Kylie Minogue forum which I visit every day....and there was a thread about eating game meat, so I clicked on it...and somebody had written that they'd eaten flying fox and somebody else had posted pictures of flying foxes.....right where I couldn't miss them. What are the chances of that??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Somebody's trying to tell me something.
Don't eat bananas.
Starve.
Be Happy.

[Tigerlily]

Well if they weren't freegan themselves I'd be giving them money to spend on products that harm animals...
but if they were freegan themselves I think it would be ok!

But I think the whole concept of freeganism is not to pay at all and do it yourself. I could be wrong though .

[DancingWillow]

I never thought of it that way...I think that freeganism is a way of living, the purpose of which is to reduce the waste of good food, as well as the environmental consequences of wasting it (more landfill waste, etc). Imo, freeganism is about living off foods and products that you didn't pay for ("free"), but it doesn't matter if you went dumpster diving for yourself or someone else did for you. Interesting point about the if you're paying a non-freegan to dumpster dive...I guess in that case it wouldn't be freegan.

[seviya]

I have to admit that the other day, I scooped out a beautiful little green onion from my mother's garden and could have cried. How silly is that. It's just that I'd watched it grow from a wee thing to a big thing and now here I was, about to cut it up and mix it with my noodles. I felt so bad!!! But what can you do.

I'm still kind of new to veganism, so my logic hasn't sorted itself out yet. I'm sure that one day I'll be able to see things as my mom does: she loves her garden, all her little vegetables, every single one, talks to them, babies them. And when it's time to eat them, or their fruit, she makes sure she does it in the best way possible, enjoying every little bit of nourishment it can give her, doesn't dream of crying over it, and leaves not a scrap.

We have to eat vegetables. It's how this hard wheel of life turns. Every day we have to make choices, balance out the harms, decide how much burden we wish to bear. Some days it's less, some days it's more. C'est la vie.

But all the same, poop.

[Pilaf]

............... good grief. It's freaking plants. Of course they don't have feelings..they're not even level one life forms.

[ravenfire]

I have this problem a lot and it's actually coming from people who believe it. I'm Pagan and a lot of my Pagan friends have read a book called "The Secret Life of Plants". According to the book, they did a study on plants and discovered that if you have the right equipment hooked up to the plants, you can hear them scream when they are cut. I've done some research and found that various people have tried to recreate this study with no success. But anytime I tell them this, they say it's just people who don't understand the spirits of the plants trying to recreate the experiment. This book seems to be law.

So now I've started focusing on the cruel nature of factory farms to get my point across. That way even if they do believe that plants can feel pain just like animals, they understand that the animals are put though an unnecissary amount of torture for our food where the plants are simply harvested and that's it.

[Amy]

it's the much lesser of two evils.

[anneoranna]

When someone tells me something funny like that… I would just say plants are made for us to eat. If not then what else can we eat?… animals are obviously made with a WILL to live.. why would they cry, run, and know if someone was to kill them? If we pick a plant from a vine or tree it doesn’t cry for it’s life and know how to run away… so that’s my reason… although I believe everything has a soul, I also believe it’s created the way it is for a special a reason… that doesn't mean I pick plants for fun b/c I also believe they too have feelings.

[Seaside]

Ok now im majorly confused.

help

http://www.uncoveror.com/plants.htm

http://www.department13designs.com/vegan.html

http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~andylei/plant_rights.html

i ask, as it is what mum shoved in my face. I didnt know what to say.

I copied this from the other thread, which is locked.
Ladyaprille, I don't want this to sound like I am disrespecting your mum, because I know you love her! I think that what goes on in her mind, and in the minds of all omnis who pull this "argument", is that when they are faced with vegan people, they feel extremely guilty. Not only do they feel guilty, they also feel outraged at the unfairness of their having to bear a guilty burden that you are free of, especially when to them, you are the sole cause of their guilt. So they look for any way they can to make you feel as bad about what you do as they do about what they do. A simpler solution would be for them to stop doing what makes them feel guilty, but that's too easy. And it would require them to admit that they are wrong, which is next to impossible for most people, and even more impossible, to admit that we are right!

If omnis were secure and content with omnism, and were completely convinced that there is nothing immoral about exploiting animals, they would not be engaging in this "oh yeah, well you are just as guilty as I am because you kill plants" argument. The whole concept behind trying to make us feel guilty about killing plants is an undeniable admission of guilt for killing animals on the part of the omni using the argument. Its not an "I'm right and you're wrong" argument, its more of a "So what if I am wrong, you are too" kind of thing.

I'm not trying to make your mum sound like a bad person. She just feels hurt in some way by your choice of lifestyle, and most people who feel hurt by someone can't resist lashing out in kind, even if the people who have hurt them are the people they love. There's not much you could say to her, just understand where it is coming from, and know that you do not have to concern yourself with these bogus claims.

[Haniska]

Did anyone read the second link on the above post?
No offense to your mum either ladyaprille, but either she didn't read that second one, she is joking, or she has made herself hysterical with guilt and fear.

[Haniska]

Not to mention the 3rd one as well.
The first link is interesting but none of them seem reference- able.

[xwitchymagicx]

I was going to go fruitarian at least so I could stop harming plants so much but at the moment I think I'd starve. I dunno...I always feel a little guilty when walking on grass so...I guess I shouldn't think about it...but don't that make me like a meat eater trying not to think about it? Oh well...

[Seaside]

...I always feel a little guilty when walking on grass so...I guess I shouldn't think about it...but don't that make me like a meat eater trying not to think about it? Oh well...

That observation is more profound than you might think witchy. I at least feel more able to come to terms with my eating of plants than I ever could with my eating of animals. If omnis could come to terms with killing animals instead of living in denial of it they wouldn't react to veganism with such irrational hostility.

[Korn]

don't that make me like a meat eater trying not to think about it

Meat (animals) make it clear to us, and always have, they they don't want to harmed, killed, beaten, eaten. Plants are created in a way that if that nervous tension that some people claim that they can measure, and others say that they can't.. IF that change in vibrations would be pain (we don't know if it is), and IF the plant would be able to feel that pain, I could see a similarity between killing and eating a dog trying to run away or defend it self when I tried to harm it, or howling with pain if someone would hurt it.

If you sit on a chair, the chair will vibrate differently, the material with have a different tension, and the temperature will change. Is this 'nerve tension' pain? If it is, can the chair feel it? Should we rather sit on the floor? Can the floor feel pain?

When it comes to harming/ethics/killing/pain I can't see any similarities between eating an animal and eating a plant.

[Korn]

When it comes to harming/ethics/killing/pain I can't see any similarities between eating an animal and eating a plant.

Except, of course, that if a human eat a plant eating animal, he is indirectly involved in 'killing' both plants and animals.

[Xenius13]

There's a big difference between stimulus response and consciousness.

[grant]

Even fruitarians can be questioned..is not plucking a pepper from the plant kinda like taking the egg from the chicken? Anyways guys..I was wondering on your thoughts and opinions.

I don't agree with this. A pepper is a fruit, it is the seed of a fruit that is designed to continue that species. If anything the pepper seed is akin to the egg of a chicken (if you consider plants and animals to be equals) The egg is not designed to be eaten, the fruit is.

[chickendude]

Knowing the vast majority of us here to be vegan, I find it difficult that you so quickly justify the morality of eating plants. I would have just assumed that, knowing you openly protest the cruelties to animals, you would at least recognize the cruelties to plants. Regardless of whether or not a plant feels/registers pain, you have to admit that it has a life and a will to live it. An immobilized (yet sentient) man or woman would certainly not be regarded as food! He or she would have both the ability and the will to live, but would lack the functionalities to evade dangers. However, with a perfectly functional plant we feel we have the right to take away a life.

I'm not saying you stop eating vegetables, just recognize that consuming vegetables IS killing a living organism, a fairly complex one at that. However, I've found that a fruitarian diet isn't terribly healthy, therefore the next least unethical food source is plants, and that is how I justify eating plants. However, it does bother me that in order to live I must kill, but eating out of necessity and eating out of want are two separate things. Flesh is something one can desire, but not something one needs. However, plants (until more research is done into solely fruit-based diets) are a necessity to our survival.

A plant has a life, and who are we to take that away? It is the question the world will ask once it has converted to veganism.

[satirecafe]

"In an earlier stage of our development most human groups held to a tribal ethic. Members of the tribe were protected, but people of other tribes could be robbed or killed as one pleased. Gradually the circle of protection expanded, but as recently as 150 years ago we did not include blacks. So African human beings could be captured, shipped to America and sold. In Australia white settlers regarded Aborigines as a pest and hunted them down, much as kangaroos are hunted down today. Just as we have progressed beyond the blatantly racist ethic of the era of slavery and colonialism, so we must now progress beyond the speciesist ethic of the era of factory farming, of the use of animals as mere research tools, of whaling, seal hunting, kangaroo slaughter and the destruction of wilderness. We must take the final step in expanding the circle of ethics."

"If you look at the course of western history you'll see that we're slowly granting basic rights to everyone. A long time ago only kings had rights. Then rights were extended to property-owning white men. Then all men. Then women. Then children. Then the mentally retarded. Now we're agonizing over the extension of basic rights to homosexuals and animals. We need to finally accept that all sentient creatures are deserving of basic rights. "

After animals are finally given rights (in the very distant future), who will be next in the circle of ethics? the only things left will be plants, fungi, etc. do you think plants are sentient in any way? maybe they are just above our level of understanding? or maybe our science is still too crude to properly analyze the capabilities of plants?