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Thread: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

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    VeganMonkey's Avatar
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    Default The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Did anyone else see this? I know I shouldn't bother being annoyed really but I am! Just that first sentence alone.. vegan 'merely' for animals?! Of course it's far more important to do it so you can lose weight without having to exercise ... (like that ever happened to me?!)

    The 'vegan before dinner time' diet
    Mark Bittman's Food Matters has created a Hollywood craze that helps you lose weight and help the planet

    http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/l...cle6732043.ece
    Last edited by VeganMonkey; Aug 3rd, 2009 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Trouble with link

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    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Stoopid in so many ways - but to look on the bright side if people stick with it it does mean that fewer animals will get eaten or otherwise exploited, I guess.

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    "...the meat-free, or 'conscious eating', market is predicted to grow by 19% in the next five years"

    At least this is good! As good as any other prediction might be, anyway.

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    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Have you heard of the VBM? Vegan Between Meals? I asked The Onion to write a report on this.
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

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    VeganMonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Wow, that's a whole other level of ridiculous!

    Yep, I suppose we should see it as a step in the right direction at least...

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    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    It's not a "step in the right direction." It's a step in the WRONG direction. It's people co-opting the term vegan and trying to make vegan = omnivore.
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote harpy View Post
    Stoopid in so many ways - but to look on the bright side if people stick with it it does mean that fewer animals will get eaten or otherwise exploited, I guess.
    Quote Sarabi View Post
    It's not a "step in the right direction." It's a step in the WRONG direction. It's people co-opting the term vegan and trying to make vegan = omnivore.
    I have so say, I can see both sides of the coin here. Personally though, I'm really not comfortable with the word 'vegan' being used as a part time food preference. It muddies the water, in very much the same way I disliked people who didn't eat red meat or chicken calling themselves vegetarians.

    There are few additional things here. I don't expect these part time 'vegans' will give up bread with milk powder in it, or skimmed milk in their coffee, or even salad dressings with milk derived proteins in them.

    The other thing is, it isn't really a reliable weigh loss plan unless you eat in a healthful way. I know plenty of vegan foods that are calorie packed, nuts, seeds, breads, soy cheese... need I go on?

    I do think the concept of living animal product free 90% of the time is easier to sell people, and that at least its something, but I just don't want the word 'vegan' used in this way.
    Quitting something because it's hard is wrong, and quitting something because it's wrong is hard. One takes cowardice, the other bravery.

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    VeganMonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote Sarabi View Post
    It's not a "step in the right direction." It's a step in the WRONG direction. It's people co-opting the term vegan and trying to make vegan = omnivore.
    Of course you're right from one point of view - that's why I posted this, because the whole idea makes me very angry. But I was trying to look at it from a positive point of view too: as Harpy says, if people are vegan 'part-time' at least that's less animals being consumed. And we can always be a little hopeful that a few people might make the move from part-time to full-time eventually...

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    [QUOTE=Ms_Derious;595093]I don't expect these part time 'vegans' will give up bread with milk powder in it, or skimmed milk in their coffee, or even salad dressings with milk derived proteins in them. [QUOTE]

    I'm certain you're right about this, especially as one of the 'vegan before dinner time' meal plans at the bottom of the article includes a breakfast smoothie sweetened with honey. Good start!

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    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Don't get me wrong, I don't like the misuse of the term either. The idea of a part-time vegan makes about as much sense as the idea of a part-time virgin, as I'm sure has been pointed out before I would be happier if these people said that they ate only vegan food during the day, but of course that sounds less catchy

    I do think, though, that from a pragmatic point of view something that persuaded large numbers of people to cut down on their consumption of animal products could have a huge benefit.

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote harpy View Post
    I do think, though, that from a pragmatic point of view something that persuaded large numbers of people to cut down on their consumption of animal products could have a huge benefit.
    I agree

    Its the calling it vegan bit that gets up my bum.

    However, I doubt you are going to get lots of people saying 'I'm doing the 'don't eat a lot of dairy, eggs or meat, except in the evening, or if you really fancy it a bit during the day won't hurt' diet'

    My sister (the bad vegetarian) told me last time she saw me she was thinking of going vegan for a month to see if she lost weight. Yep, it's a weigh loss plan. Esp those deep fried chocolate bars I've seen Mr Flibble posting.
    Quitting something because it's hard is wrong, and quitting something because it's wrong is hard. One takes cowardice, the other bravery.

  12. #12
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote Sarabi View Post
    It's not a "step in the right direction." It's a step in the WRONG direction. It's people co-opting the term vegan and trying to make vegan = omnivore.
    I totally agree Sarabi. The article completely misunderstands (or doesn't really care) what veganism is and I find their highjacking of the word 'vegan' offensive.

    leedsveg

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    *Picks petals off a daisy* Laaa-laaa-laaah "Am I vegan? Am I not? Am I vegan? Am I not? Not??? Not!!! Hurrah!!! Now where's that fois gras???"

    What the frick are they going to come up with next? As if it wasn't hard enough to be taken seriously as a vegan without people saying "Oh, but you eat animal stuff in the evenings, right? "

    WWWWWaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmphh hhhhhhhh

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    fortified twinkle's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Mark Bittman is a good cookery writer. I've got his 'How to cook everything vegetarian', and apart from the puddings it's really good for vegans. I think while he was researching it, he found out a lot of stuff he didn't like, and unfortunately I think he went off on a bit of a trip into his own little world and wrote what I regarded as quite a disappointing book about being a more caring omnivore... I think his heart is in the right place, but he's too embroiled in being a foodie to make the steps to veg he probably knows in his heart of hearts he should.

    I hope anyone who likes this book does go back to his earlier work, because it give soooo many options for great vegan food, and they're actually easy. I've got lots of cookery books and this is the only one I've made more than about 2 recipes out of.
    "If you don't have a song to sing you're okay, you know how to get along humming" Waltz (better than fine) - Fiona Apple

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    leedsveg
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote twinkle View Post
    Mark Bittman is a good cookery writer. I've got his 'How to cook everything vegetarian', and apart from the puddings it's really good for vegans. I think while he was researching it, he found out a lot of stuff he didn't like, and unfortunately I think he went off on a bit of a trip into his own little world and wrote what I regarded as quite a disappointing book about being a more caring omnivore... I think his heart is in the right place, but he's too embroiled in being a foodie to make the steps to veg he probably knows in his heart of hearts he should.

    I hope anyone who likes this book does go back to his earlier work, because it give soooo many options for great vegan food, and they're actually easy. I've got lots of cookery books and this is the only one I've made more than about 2 recipes out of.
    Hi twinkle

    I hear what you say about Mark Bittman but he seems to be the one deserting we vegans, rather than us deserting him. I think I'd tend to support a food writer who is actually vegan and whose heart keeps her/him pointing in the right (=vegan) direction. Perhaps a letter to Mark Brittman from one of his fans, namely you, might get him to see the error of his ways.

    leedsveg

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote harpy View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I don't like the misuse of the term either. The idea of a part-time vegan makes about as much sense as the idea of a part-time virgin, as I'm sure has been pointed out before


    It is irritating but I suppose at least people are maybe "being vegan" () some of the time so at least less animals are being eaten no matter how pathetic the reason.

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote BlackCats View Post


    It is irritating but I suppose at least people are maybe "being vegan" () some of the time so at least less animals are being eaten no matter how pathetic the reason.
    Also, as VeganMonkey pointed out some of them might decide to go full-time later.

    In fact now I think about it that's more or less how I went vegan originally. I cut out dairy stuff as a temporary thing, and then realised it wasn't necessary at all and that there was no good reason to have it. Slow on the uptake, I know

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote harpy View Post
    In fact now I think about it that's more or less how I went vegan originally. I cut out dairy stuff as a temporary thing, and then realised it wasn't necessary at all and that there was no good reason to have it. Slow on the uptake, I know
    So did I. I was vegetarian but I cut down on cheese to lose weight for my wedding and then decided to try to be vegan again and read information on the internet (and was horrified!) and then went vegan.

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    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    I'd actually done some of the reading before and thought I should be vegan but believed it would be "too difficult". Then I had to cut dairy produce out because it started disagreeing with me and I found it wasn't nearly as difficult as expected That's why I think anything that encourages people to give it a try could be productive, annoying as that article is.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    I really don't like the negative light they throw on actual veganism in the first paragraph. Angry letter/e-mail/some form of communication, I feel

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote harpy View Post
    I'd actually done some of the reading before and thought I should be vegan but believed it would be "too difficult". Then I had to cut dairy produce out because it started disagreeing with me and I found it wasn't nearly as difficult as expected That's why I think anything that encourages people to give it a try could be productive, annoying as that article is.
    On the one hand, taking small steps into veganism (i.e. before 6pm only) might be a good way to get people interested without overwhelming them. But on the other hand, the whole article suggests that's it's too difficult and boring and joyless to be a full-time vegan.

    Sadly in the end, I don't think there's much positive intent behind the article - it's a superficial endorsement of a fad diet which encourages skinny 'beauty' with no regard for compassion. Surely this is for the same audience that the 'Skinny Bitch' authors cleverly targeted? I'm sure that book has had/ will have a far greater impact than this article (fingers crossed).

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    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote harpy View Post
    Also, as VeganMonkey pointed out some of them might decide to go full-time later.

    In fact now I think about it that's more or less how I went vegan originally. I cut out dairy stuff as a temporary thing, and then realised it wasn't necessary at all and that there was no good reason to have it. Slow on the uptake, I know
    Yes, but you never called yourself Vegan Before Dinnertime, did you? I gave up meat gradually, but I didn't say "I'm vegetarian on certain days!" In fact, I deliberately sought a way to convince myself to give up seafood, after giving up red meat and poultry, just because I thought I might as well be able to call myself "vegetarian" if I was already giving up the main two kinds of meat I consumed. If I had had the wrong definition of vegetarian, if wouldn't have mattered.
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Hi twinkle

    I hear what you say about Mark Bittman but he seems to be the one deserting we vegans, rather than us deserting him. I think I'd tend to support a food writer who is actually vegan and whose heart keeps her/him pointing in the right (=vegan) direction. Perhaps a letter to Mark Brittman from one of his fans, namely you, might get him to see the error of his ways.

    leedsveg
    I'm not sure I phrased myself very well. The previous book ('How to cook everything vegetarian') before the one this article is based on is the one I think is great, the book the article is based on ('Food Matters') I found very disappointing and a little bit preachy. I don't think he's 'deserted' vegans though (because he has said several times that he's unlikely to go vegan, so he was never with us in the first place), and I do think it's a good thing he makes vegan food more accessible and desireable to non-vegans.

    I have many cookbooks by vegan writers, and I have made recipes I've enjoyed from some of them. Howver, I just find the style of 'How to cook everything vegetarian' particularly informative and useful.

    I'm not about to write to Mark Bittman. If he wanted to be veg he knows more than enough already to make the step, I don't think some random bint sticking her oar in is going to make any difference to him
    "If you don't have a song to sing you're okay, you know how to get along humming" Waltz (better than fine) - Fiona Apple

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    I think the very title "Vegan Before Dinnertime" is offensive to vegans; it's implying that we somehow pick and choose when to be ethical. Alright, so he's talking about diet only, but that's the very thing - veganism is not just about diet! No-one would dream of saying to an orthodox Jewish audience that "eating kosher is too difficult" and proposing "Kosher before Dinner Time and Shellfish After"!

  25. #25
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote fiamma View Post
    I think the very title "Vegan Before Dinnertime" is offensive to vegans; it's implying that we somehow pick and choose when to be ethical. Alright, so he's talking about diet only, but that's the very thing - veganism is not just about diet! No-one would dream of saying to an orthodox Jewish audience that "eating kosher is too difficult" and proposing "Kosher before Dinner Time and Shellfish After"!
    Totally agree with you, especially "veganism is not just about diet".
    To continue your analogy with kashrut, I could henceforth eat only kosher food but this alone would not make me Jewish in the eyes of the Chief Rabbi. Similarly merely eating a plant based diet does not make a person a vegan.

    leedsveg

  26. #26
    *live*&*let*live
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Umm well I did post about this about five posts up but it wasn't ok'd or missed and it is not here!
    I read about VB6 which is vegan before six. After that I take it you can rush to the butchers or kebab shop and stuff your face?
    The people who are following these kinds of fads are doing it for weight loss I think. They do not see it as a decent, honest, loving, ethical and cruelty free way of life. It is a mere way of losing weight for them. Mind you, I am surprised, I thought all us vegans were unhealthy critters who are either severely overweight or skinny pale and apathetic. Maybe they are pinning all their hopes on that meat after 6 to keep 'healthy' ......

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    Fervent vegan DiaShel's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    While I agree with what everyone is saying about veganism not being a diet, I do think that people can become vegan to lose weight and this leads to becoming aware of the issues. Also, if less animals are killed in the process I don't care what the reason is.
    "To reduce suffering means to reduce the amount of ignorance, the basic affliction with us." -Thich Nhat Hanh

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote DiaShel View Post
    I do think that people can become vegan to lose weight and this leads to becoming aware of the issues. Also, if less animals are killed in the process I don't care what the reason is.
    Hmm... I'm sceptical. While I wish this were true, I think it happens the other way round much more often.

    As for your second point, I agree 110%!!!

  29. #29
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote DiaShel View Post
    Also, if less animals are killed in the process I don't care what the reason is.
    Quote fiamma View Post
    As for your second point, I agree 110%!!!
    I can agree that each and every animal not killed is a good thing (providing that they have a good quality of life, as long as they live) however I do think the reason less animals are killed in the short term, matters because it can have consequences. If I go on a trendy plant based diet purely to lose weight, the chances are that I will slip off the diet within a short period of time. If I go on a plant based diet because I have a compassion for animals and this is a natural part of my progression into veganism, then the chances are that I will stay with this 'diet' for longer and so in the long term, less animals die.

    If you were to say that 'killed in the process' does cover the long term, then I would find it difficult to relate this time-scale to a plant based diet taken up for the reason of weight loss.

    leedsveg

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Of course being vegan is about more than diet. But I don't think there's any realistic chance of the world suddenly going vegan. Any gradual process will of course mean that vegan viewpoints will be misinterpreted, discussed by people who don't really know what vegan means - and the word 'vegan' will be misused a lot of times.

    The positive side of this is that ever time someone prints "Suitable for vegans" on some food product, every time someone like Oprah discuss vegan diet or someone suggests are partial vegan diet - more people will be reminded that there's such a thing as vegan food, and in one way or the other, being vegan will be considered being more 'mainstream'. I don't want to become mainstream, but I'm convinced that lots of people aren't vegan just because they're afraid of sticking out of the crowd.If some people change their eating habits and feel that they are 'vegans' before dinner, it would probably easier for them to consider going full vegan.

    Another example: I believe this leak/rumor, about an official at the UK Environment Agency stating that the potential benefit of a vegan diet in terms of climate impact could be very significant, also helps people becoming more 'vegan curious', or at least 'vegan aware'. That can't be bad thing.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  31. #31
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Hi Korn

    We could debate this all day and perhaps not agree, but all will be clearer in the fullness of time, no doubt. (It's a bit like two football fans arguing about the probable result before the match).

    We've all heard of vegetarians [sic] who eat fish, chicken etc and so what, in effect does the word 'vegetarian' mean? If enough people misspell (mispell?!) a word for long enough, then sooner or later the 'wrong' spelling becomes the 'correct', accepted spelling.

    And that's my fear as a vegan, that sooner or later the term 'vegan' will have been so misused, degraded, that it will mean very little. 'My friend's a vegan but she eats steak after 6pm and she wears a fur coat, but only at Christmas.'

    leedsveg

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    'My friend's a vegan but she eats steak after 6pm and she wears a fur coat, but only at Christmas.'
    I may be wrong, but 'vegan before dinner time' sounds to me like it's meant in a semi-humorous way, like if someone would say that they are non-smokers when they sleep.

    The term 'vegan' is already being misused by some people - and a good example of that is vegatopia.com, who writes stuff like this:

    "Definition of 'veganism'

    Veganism refers to the dietary practice of choosing a diet composed of plant foods (supplemented with other non-animal foods such as funghi and minerals)."

    They are trying to separate the definition of 'vegan' from non-food issues, and describes what commonly is known as veganism as "ethical veganism". In other words: They pretty much claim that veganism is only being about diet.

    If they would succeed in making their own definition of vegan mainstream, this would lead to people who eat vegan but aren't vegans (use leather, go fishing in the weekends etc) calling themselves "vegans", and also to people who actually are vegans in the common and original sense of vegan being described not as vegans, but as "ethical vegans".

    Vegatopia is apparently run by an "information consultant" in The Vegan Society, which doesn't bode well for for how TVS will inform about what veganism and vegan actually means. This is more worrisome in terms of keeping the definition of vegan intact than if someone more or less jokes about being vegans before dinner time.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    Fervent vegan DiaShel's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    I can agree that each and every animal not killed is a good thing (providing that they have a good quality of life, as long as they live) however I do think the reason less animals are killed in the short term, matters because it can have consequences. If I go on a trendy plant based diet purely to lose weight, the chances are that I will slip off the diet within a short period of time. If I go on a plant based diet because I have a compassion for animals and this is a natural part of my progression into veganism, then the chances are that I will stay with this 'diet' for longer and so in the long term, less animals die.
    I agree that many people would slip off "the diet", however, some will realize that vegan food is tasty, there is a large variety of foods, and it isn't deprivation. Many people think being vegan is very difficult and by eating it most of the day they will be proven wrong. Also, when they research what to eat on the computer, they'll probably stumble across information on why people are vegan and perhaps knowing it is something they CAN do, they will be open to the idea and will actually become vegan.
    "To reduce suffering means to reduce the amount of ignorance, the basic affliction with us." -Thich Nhat Hanh

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote Korn View Post
    The positive side of this is that ever time someone prints "Suitable for vegans" on some food product, every time someone like Oprah discuss vegan diet or someone suggests are partial vegan diet - more people will be reminded that there's such a thing as vegan food, and in one way or the other, being vegan will be considered being more 'mainstream'...

    [...] also helps people becoming more 'vegan curious', or at least 'vegan aware'. That can't be bad thing.
    Excellent points, Korn. I think that vegans generally do get accused of being too "insular" or "puritanical" (please don't attack me for saying this, I just often get the impression that we as a group consider ourselves as a kind of "elite"), and with good reason, attacking people who have the slightest problem with their way of living, and anything that makes it more "accessible" is probably a good thing.

    But that's just my opinion, and I mean no offence. I may not have expressed myself very well; I'm not feeling very eloquent today!!! (Blame the artists who insist on talking in riddles )

  35. #35
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    i think it's a quite patronising article...insinuating that we're vegan just to lose weight.

  36. #36
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote Daffodil View Post
    i think it's a quite patronising article...insinuating that we're vegan just to lose weight.
    I feel exactly the same!

    I wonder if he sat there and thought about all us vegans as he wrote it!
    The taste of anything in my mouth for 5 seconds does not equate to the beauty and complexity of life.

  37. #37
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote fiamma View Post
    .... I just often get the impression that we as a group consider ourselves as a kind of "elite" )
    Fiamma

    You've amused me!

    For we vegans to have the common, elitist attitude that you suggest implies some kind of consensus. Reading the postings on this vegan forum leads me to think that the only thing we vegans agree on is disagreeing!

    Good wishes

    leedsveg

    ps. My wife agrees with you!
    Last edited by leedsveg; Aug 8th, 2009 at 07:14 AM. Reason: ps.

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    I am going to use this quote from the article:

    Make legumes part of your life “Whenever you eat beans instead of animal products, everyone wins.”
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Quote pat sommer View Post
    Make legumes part of your life “Whenever you eat beans instead of animal products, everyone wins.”
    Yes!!!

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    Default Re: The Sunday Times: 'Vegan before dinner time' diet

    Originally Posted by Korn
    I may be wrong, but 'vegan before dinner time' sounds to me like it's meant in a semi-humorous way, like if someone would say that they are non-smokers when they sleep.

    The term 'vegan' is already being misused by some people - and a good example of that is vegatopia.com, who writes stuff like this:

    "Definition of 'veganism'

    Veganism refers to the dietary practice of choosing a diet composed of plant foods (supplemented with other non-animal foods such as funghi and minerals)."

    They are trying to separate the definition of 'vegan' from non-food issues, and describes what commonly is known as veganism as "ethical veganism". In other words: They pretty much claim that veganism is only being about diet.

    If they would succeed in making their own definition of vegan mainstream, this would lead to people who eat vegan but aren't vegans (use leather, go fishing in the weekends etc) calling themselves "vegans", and also to people who actually are vegans in the common and original sense of vegan being described not as vegans, but as "ethical vegans".

    Vegatopia is apparently run by an "information consultant" in The Vegan Society, which doesn't bode well for for how TVS will inform about what veganism and vegan actually means. This is more worrisome in terms of keeping the definition of vegan intact than if someone more or less jokes about being vegans before dinner time.


    Hi Everyone,
    I am one of the co-founders of vegatopia.org and I was recently alerted to some criticisms of the site that had appeared on this forum. The problem seems to have been with our definitions of veganism, as in the quoted example here.

    We recognize that our original definitions were insufficiently clear and have therefore revised them as follows:

    “Definition of 'vegan'
    A vegan attempts to minimize, as far as possible, the harm she or he causes to all animals (nonhuman and human) in the course of her or his life. This includes choosing to eat a diet composed of plant foods (supplemented with other non-animal foods such as funghi and minerals); choosing products that do not depend on violence against, or the exploitation of, animals; working to end all exploitative and oppressive human activities that harm nonhuman and human animals.

    Definition of 'veganism'

    Veganism refers to the philosophy and practice of minimizing, as far as possible, the harm caused to all animals (nonhuman and human). This involves choosing to eat a diet composed of plant foods (supplemented with other non-animal foods such as funghi and minerals); choosing products that do not depend on violence against, or the exploitation of, animals; working to end all exploitative and oppressive human activities that harm nonhuman and human animals.

    Note on definitions

    Most definitions of veganism begin by listing what vegans do not eat, drink, wear, or do. As such, they tend to replicate a commonsense understanding of veganism as difficult to achieve or sustain. In contrast, Vegatopia asserts that veganism, given adequate information, resources and social support, is both easy and immensely pleasurable to achieve and sustain. In light of this, the definitions of 'vegan' and 'veganism' advocated by Vegatopia stress the consumption practices and activism encouraged and enjoyed by vegans, not what they 'avoid' or 'sacrifice'.”

    The thinking behind our original definitions of ‘vegan’ and ‘veganism’ was to attempt to avoid the very criticism that has been levelled at us – the dilution of veganism into a movement that is concerned with diet only. Therefore, our initial line defining ‘veganism’ solely in terms of diet, followed with our definition of ‘ethical veganism’ was intended to indicate that ‘dietary veganism’ was insufficient, and absolutely not the purpose of the Vegatopia site. In other words, ‘dietary veganism’ does not constitute ‘veganism’ per se. A cursory exploration of the Vegatopia site will make this obvious – ‘lifestyle’ veganism has a very low profile on the site. Contrary to the accusation, we are not 'trying to to separate the definition of 'vegan' from non-food issues' - we are trying to do the opposite. We are sorry that our insufficiently carefully worded initial definitions have led to our efforts being misconstrued by some.

    We always welcome constructive criticism and would have appreciated some direct communication on this issue, rather than hearing about it second-hand – it’s disappointing that a debate of this nature has occurred without us being granted the courtesy of an invitation to respond, especially when it seems that we are in agreement over the fundamental issue at stake.

    If other users of this forum have suggestions for improvements of the Vegatopia resource, we very much welcome feedback and invite your comments. Please email us using the links on the ‘contact us’ page of Vegatopia.

    Best wishes,
    Matthew

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