where does your money go?

[DavidT]

How much do you consider what happens to your money once it's left your hands?

For instance, would you have a clear conscience buying food sourced from Carmel Agrexco?

If you have to question the question, then I suggest you either need to do some research or you're happy to support a desperately murderous regime.

Have an MBNA credit card? Yes? Buy Esso fuel? So you're perfectly content funding the American republican party and were an avid supporter of George Bush? Or are you unaware of the connection?

Maybe you bank with Barclays. They fund Huntingdon Life Sciences, which gets paid to torture animals. Monsanto, DuPont, Dow, Exxon and many more are HLS customers, which is enough to put you off them straight away.

What I'm saying is, every purchase you make has an influence, either locally through supporting virtual monopolies like Tesco or pro-actively keeping your friendly organic farmer in business. Also, probably the worst, through helping corporations involved in violence. There are too many to list.

Your money is the only democracy you have left. A vote once every few years makes no difference - the government still get in.

You're already making a huge statement with your veganism - but don't let it stop at food. Make positive choices with your money.

Positive stories welcome.

[Spud Addict]

I have to admit the first thing I thought when I saw the title of this thread was "I wish I knew!"
But silliness aside, this is very thought provoking, and yes I often think about what I'm funding when I buy stuff. Although admittedly I do do more thinking than I do spending in the right places. I'd like to make more of an effort to spend wisely and more ethically, supporting the right things and so on, but it will be a while before I can afford to live out of health food shops or small independent businesses.
Thanks for the food for thought though, DavidT.

[Jiffy]

All my major financial arrangements, Mortgage, ISAa, pension etc are with the CO-OP. On the downside my Mrs does shop at evilTesco.

[DavidT]

All my major financial arrangements, Mortgage, ISAa, pension etc are with the CO-OP. On the downside my Mrs does shop at evilTesco.

My daughter once asked me for recommendations for managing her money, ISA etc and I said the Co-op/Smile. She switched and, in the process, saved a bit of money and found the cash benefits of being an 'account whore' - always looking for the better deal. So my advice, half-a-dozen account swaps later, had unintended consequences!

Keep trying to steer her away from Te$co, Jiffy!

Edit: This is a timely thread more-or-less concerned with this one.

[leedsveg]

You're already making a huge statement with your veganism - but don't let it stop at food.

Hi DavidT

You make some very interesting, important and valid points and I speak as someone who used to work for Agrexco.

Without trying to divert this thread onto a 'What is a vegan?' debate, I think you remind us that there is much more to living an ethical life than our choice of diet.

[DavidT]

Hi DavidT

You make some very interesting, important and valid points and I speak as someone who used to work for Agrexco.

Without trying to divert this thread onto a 'What is a vegan?' debate, I think you remind us that there is much more to living an ethical life than our choice of diet.

Thank you.

[Zero]

Have you ever shopped at Tesco, Sainsburys, Asda or any other supermarket?
Does your car have tires on it?
Do the co-op not own a supermarket that sells meat and other animal products?
Do you buy everything fair trade? (Is that even possible?)
This list could go on forever but I will stop there.......

It is the system and current world view that is flawed, these things you mention are the symptoms of it, not the cause.

Sure it is great to consider where your money goes, and as much as I support my local markets and places like the One Earth Shop and others like it going, I am also going to use my money to keep vegan options alive in my local tesco, because if no one buys it then it is assumed there is no demand and veganism is pushed away from the mainstream.

[DavidT]

I am also going to use my money to keep vegan options alive in my local tesco, because if no one buys it then it is assumed there is no demand and veganism is pushed away from the mainstream.

I can't quite accept that. I know what you're getting at but frankly, Tesco needs to be split up - they're almost a monopoly and are not in the least interested in nutrition or, indeed, their customers beyond extracting as much money as possible, as fast as possible, from them.

They should be given no encouragement in their present set-up. You are supporting an oppressive model of business and, if you're happy with that, so be it but for me a very small part of veganism is a reaction to such corporate excess.

There are also so many examples of larger, less ethical corporation swallowing smaller, more ethical ones simply to get on the bandwagon. You cannot buy ethics.

Have you ever shopped at Tesco, Sainsburys, Asda or any other supermarket?

Yes in the past - but I have eliminated virtually all supermarket shopping now. It takes time but it can be done. I had to visit a supermarket on Saturday for washing soda, there was no other place in town. I think I spent a euro there...

Does your car have tires on it?

No, it has tyres. :smile:

Do the co-op not own a supermarket that sells meat and other animal products?

It does. I don't shop at the Co-op. Until we can get people thinking about their money more, they will find that the Co-op is the 'least bad' of the bunch and as such is a step in the right direction. I'd sooner see every vegan shop at the Co-op than one shop at Tesco. Now that would be a way to change things!

Do you buy everything fair trade? (Is that even possible?)

I try but no, it's not possible yet.

On a personal level, we grow a lot of our own food and we have local organic farmers.

My spending priorities are (not in any deliberate order): <vegan - organic - fair trade - local - recycled or second hand - in glass or paper or loose - recyclable> and I try to find the best combination of these.

It is the system and current world view that is flawed, these things you mention are the symptoms of it, not the cause.

This is true.

As I intimated, with the draconian public order laws now in place plus no real representation along with the corporatisation of society, spending is almost the only form of protest these days.

Interesting answer, Zero. Thanks. I wish I had a bit more time to debate it. I'll try if you like.

[Zero]

I can't quite accept that. I know what you're getting at but frankly, Tesco needs to be split up - they're almost a monopoly and are not in the least interested in nutrition or, indeed, their customers beyond extracting as much money as possible, as fast as possible, from them.

They should be given no encouragement in their present set-up. You are supporting an oppressive model of business and, if you're happy with that, so be it but for me a very small part of veganism is a reaction to such corporate excess.

There are also so many examples of larger, less ethical corporation swallowing smaller, more ethical ones simply to get on the bandwagon. You cannot buy ethics.


Yes in the past - but I have eliminated virtually all supermarket shopping now. It takes time but it can be done. I had to visit a supermarket on Saturday for washing soda, there was no other place in town. I think I spent a euro there...

Perhaps you would like to explain the difference between Tesco and any other large corporation? I am serious in asking this not because I want to debate for the sake of it but because your posts seem to suggest that you are privy to some sort of esoteric information that the rest of us are not.

As I said, I support my local independent businesses as much as I can, but there are certain things I can only get from Tesco (some due to availability and some due to pricing).

If Tesco gets broken into pieces then who will take their place? Someone else will surely be waiting to step up. Since money isn't likely to be abolished anytime soon, what is the long term solution?

If we all stopped shopping in the large "unethical supermarkets" would the small independent places not eventually become the new "Tesco" at some point?

If so, should there be some sort of restriction on how large companies are allowed to grow?

Of course...... I am not saying that the fact that I need to and choose to do some of my shopping with the larger companies is a "free for all" to just buy the worst unethical products around, however I am doing my part to keep small business going and support vegan products on the mainstream supermarkets as I feel both of the these things are important.

You're not a grocer by any chance are you?

[bradders]

my position on this is quite aside from veganism. I avoid M&S first off for a multitude of reasons including excessive support for the Israeli state. (Israel in its present form should never have been created. I do not have anything against all of Israeli citizens either. However the actions against the Pallestinian people are unjustified, provoke further violence which is also dealt with with disproportionate and ilegal force [would be illegal if they signed up to the International Criminal Court]) Then there is the production of clothes (a considerable portion of which is sourced from sources where workers are treaded on a similar or sometimes even worse basis than those working for Primark/ Pennys providers). I avoid the biggest chains where I can (Asda/ WalMart and Tesco especially) and those where the people working there are treated the worst (Morrisons) and denied appropriate union rights etc. In Ireland there used to be little choice where we lived. The main choices being Dunnes Stores, Tesco (eventually), Aldi (eventually) and Super-Valu. Dunnes paid a reasonable wage if you worked there for a few years (anual loyalty incriment + bonus + discount). Tesco paid better initially and allowed better union freedom, flextime etc but without as big an anual incriment. Aldi paid incredibly good wages for retail and staff had apropriate union rights. The Super-Valu (locally held franchise of Musgrave) paid minimum wage only, failed to pay all hours work, frequently failed to provide statutory breaks, had no additional staff benefits or bonuses and were actively discouraged from joining the union. Dunnes was the biggest retailer in the country and we used to shop there but only because my mother had a staff discount. The quality was atrocious and was not good value without the discount. Tesco was our second choice of supermarket and even with the discount often proved cheaper. We did sometimes get a few things from Aldi too. We never touched Super-Valu for all the reasons given. I would rather support two big chains if at least the real people are being treated well. Though if possible I would support smaller companies n the interests ofmaintaining good competition.

In the case of WalMart/ Asda I have bought things that I can't buy anywhere else from there (Virgin Cola and Cidona etc) but would not do my shopping there. I go to Tesco sometimes for a few things that I can't get at Sainsburys or Waitrose (cost is also a factor) I tend to buy the majority of my food from a small grocer (cheaper than the big supermarkets too). I couldn't even think about shopping at Morrisons especially after what they have done to a lot of their staff (including the events during the takeover of Safeway).

Personally the point is to think about your purchase including where the money goes, what happens to the staff along the way as much as you can. There are also good arguments for steering companies towards the few vegan products they do make away from their damaging ones.
So I take public transport, use cable rather than sky, get much of my furniture and electonics from freecycle, recycle as much as I can and reuse as much as I can. But as I'm not wealthy I do shop at Primark (why pay literally 10 times as much for something produced with the same or worse human treatment?) for the clothes I need when I can't get them second hand and I do buy some things from supermarkets.
The issue of the shop selling meat is not important (it is but in a different way but not relevant to the purchace) as buy buying vegan products there we are shifting demand to vegan products and away from meat. This we hope leads to bigger stocks of vegan goods, reduced stocks of meat etc and more marketing of the products that are vegan.

But we do often forget the uman cost of our choices and it important to consider them where possible.

[DavidT]

Perhaps you would like to explain the difference between Tesco and any other large corporation?

In my eyes, not much; Tesco is is just a particularly nasty example. Who made your computer screen, for instance? I bought a screen back in 1991 made by Hitachi. I was horrified later to find out about their involvement in armaments and so resolved never to buy from them or their subsidiaries again (unless they reformed their company). Eventually, it doesn't leave you with much choice and you have to choose the 'least bad' to get the job done.

I'm just a believer in strict regulation of businesses. I hate the American idea of 'personhood' for limited companies, the unaccountability of them, the disproportionate influence they have on everyone, their bribery, their dictating of laws, their absolvement of responsibilities whilst assuming rights, the way commerce is run for the absolute reason of profit with little or no concern for society. Phew.

I am serious in asking this not because I want to debate for the sake of it but because your posts seem to suggest that you are privy to some sort esoteric information that the rest of us are not.

I don't think so! And would I tell you if I was? No, it's all opinion, I'm afraid, coupled with some kind of drive, principle-wise, that's hard to explain, along with a stupidly large amount of reading of the likes of Noam Chomsky, George Monbiot, Naomi Klein and similar commentators.

I apologise if my posts come out like that. I'll try harder to be clearer.

If Tesco gets broken into pieces then who will take their place? Someone else will surely be waiting to step up. Since money isn't likely to be abolished anytime soon, what is the long term solution?

If we all stopped shopping in the large "unethical supermarkets" would the small independent places not eventually become the new "Tesco" at some point?

If so, should there be some sort of restriction on how large companies are allowed to grow?

I believe that having 25% or more of a market is considered a monopoly and as such deemed illegal - so why is Tesco still one single company?

Think about vegans all shopping at the one place, let's say the Co-op. The Co-op would have to stock what those vegans want. The share of vegan products would increase. Pressure by vegans could be put on the Co-op to cut back and eventually stop stocking meat. Unlikely but worth pursuing.

Companies should be required to be 'ethical'. Unfortunately, companies dictate the law. Therein lies the real problem.

You're not a grocer by any chance are you?

No, a typesetter/graphic designer and so spend a lot of my time getting bored with routine work and hence being on fora. I am on the side of grocers, though...

[DavidT]

Thanks bradders. What you're thinking about is what the thread is largely about.

It's great to hear about such actions.

[Johnstuff]

I guess that if all consumers wouldn't touch 'unethical products' then unethical products would no longer be produced/sold.

I'm trying to cut down on supermarket shopping and buy more from small (more ethical?) shops. I'm lucky that I can sort of afford to.

One problem (for me) is that even the small wholefood shops seem to sell meat, kind of stops me feeling too commited to them.

It is important to point out what companies are very dodgy as they are very good at hiding their crimes. If cheap T shirts had pictures of the children forced to make them on the labels, not many people would buy them. Same with animal products, the suffering is behind closed doors. It's all part of the messed up system of lies that our society seems built on.

[DavidT]

One problem (for me) is that even the small wholefood shops seem to sell meat, kind of stops me feeling too commited to them.

I've found that too but they are usually much more willing to listen to their customers.

I've talked about several controversial take-overs of more ethical products with our local whole food shop. For instance, I pointed out about the Burt's Bees products fiasco (not that I'd buy such products) and now they're not stocked.

That's one in the eye for Chlorox and a step in the right direction for veganism, providing the the shop doesn't just replace Burt's Bees products with another creature-derived product.

I've pointedly told them Green and Blacks is no go, that Kallo foods are part of another huge conglomerate, I won't buy Granose or Realeat stuff or Ecover etc etc. I'm still a good customer of theirs, on good terms. This you can do when you talk to the owner.

I've also pointed them in the right direction for 'even more' ethical products, which they now stock and sell.

You/I might become a pain doing this. There again, you/I might help them create a successful business with true ethical values.

[bradders]

Agreed, knowing what customers want helps the business. If there are fewer customers then you have a bigger say.

Though on the purely vegan side of things I wouldn't want to ghettoise our lifestyle so that we are no longer able to shop in the mainstream.

[Buddha Belly]

This whole argument really winds me up everytime it comes up again. It is brilliant to be completely socially aware and caring with your money. Great. Get by on f*** all cash. Have £10-15 per week for food/ toiletries and see how long that lasts in a socially friendly shopping trip.
I do not think there are any vegans who deliberately shop at supermarkets to make them bigger or deliberately fund capitalistic pig dogs after going through many differant companies first.
I am a socialist and do not think there should be any large companies that are not state controlled or take part in unethical practices. But that is not an option at the moment whilst most of this country is unaware or give a shit about it. My only local shop that is socially and ethically aware is so bloody expensive we would be eating lentils and chickpeas all day everyday, it is also owned by carnivours.
I know a vegan who occassionally eats non vegan food as he has to eat out of FUCKING SKIPS as he can not afford vegan food. Everyone should get off their high horses and look at the reality that everyone else has to live with. It is good that some are financially able to live by a strict moral code but that is not always possible and i find threads like this pillorise and belittle some people's attempts at a better life.

Dig at nearly any company and dirt will arise. That is due to large companies purchasing parts of companies to maximise profits. Breaking up Tesco would leave the way for ASDA to take over until they get broken up and Sainsbury's take over. In the current political system there is always someone to step up and try to take control. Destroying individual companies does not change the system or make things better. It makes the system think of better and smarter ways to take our money and rule our lifes.
EVERY single UK supermarket sells Israeli foods from settlers farms. Even the co-op. To boycott just M&S is a little swipe at the bigger issue. To boycott one shop when nearly every shop is just as guilty for just as many crimes is hypocritical and merely pushes the money into another evil direction.

Anywaybored now as i can rant on for ages and i have probably pee'd you all off.

[leedsveg]

(Israel in its present form should never have been created. I do not have anything against all of Israeli citizens either.

Hi Bradders

I don't want to hijack this thread or go off at a tangent and I would imagine that most if not all of this thread's readers are horrified by Israel's recent (and not so recent) actions and so it's easy to see why a boycott of Israel is called for. But should Israel have been created at all, if so, in what form?

[Buddha Belly]

Israel should never have been created but it has. We can argue over what should of been done but that will change nothing at all. The arguement should be over what could be done to change Israel's behaviour and make Israel adhere to international law and treat it's inhabitants and neighbours fairly. This could only be done if Israel's neighbours also agree to adhere to international laws and not fund attacks in Israel.

[bradders]

(I genuinely believe it immoral to create a religious based country and that is what Israel is. A safe haven from persecution on the other hand is fine but wouldn't we all like that. As for where or from what, if Britain, the US, UN et al wanted to create the state they should have used land in their own countries (not including colonies and managed land) but generally it is my position that it should not have been created. ) Now that it has theoretically the only solution is amalgamation with the rest of Palestine and Jordan et al with a power sharing system of government. Religion/state ties, national service etc need to be abolished immediately.

As for the M&S issue, I avoid Israeli exports generally but there are larger issues with that particular company and its direct support for Israel. This in my case causes an issue as some of my family live in Israel and consider themselves to be Israeli. Some of them farm fruit for a living and it is this very fruit that I boycott.

I do agree that if you aren't well off then there is little choice out there and for many supermarkets allow people to have enough to eat on a very tight budget.

[Buddha Belly]

A lot of Jews had settled there before the creation of Israel after WWII. It was a magnet for all the European and US jews since the late 19th centuary who bought up a lot of unworkable land from the Syrian landowners. It was an easy solution to ratify the calls for nationhood than to find an alternative option for the Jewish question. Saying that a lot of the settlers would of refused to move to another country as they saw it as their 'homeland'.

[bradders]

A bit like saying that a French businessman would have the right to the land in Ireland if he bought it from the British land owners though. As for unworkable land, working that land has caused no end of ecological problems including the draining of the lakes and seas. As for the 'Jewish Question' really it was a matter for the nations to get rid of religious prejudice in their own countries before encouraging the development of an even more oppressive state that requires huge amounts of financial aid to continue.

[Buddha Belly]

The Frenchman would have rights to the land if he bought it from the recognised landowner. Syria was the recognised landowner then. Besides one Frenchman a country does not make.

I did not state and do not believe that Israel should exist as a country. I was stating what was happening to the area in that time. Which explains why there was such a high number of resident Jews able to try to revolt against Palestinian rule in the early and mid 20th C. Part of the reason for the Balfour declaration was a pre-war agreement for Jewish independance on condition that Palestines' Jew's fought against Axis powers also willing to to offer this same agreement. The US was seriously looking into part of Washington and Oregon being a new homeland for Jewish settlers. The main call for Israel as a country came from Britain originally ( I think Disraeli was an proponant of the modern Zionist homeland movement) then was taken up by US based Jewish communities that had huge amounts of power and voting blocks for all US elections. Huge movements to Palestine had been happening since the mid 19th C. and was part of the Zionist dream of escaping persecuation and try to recreate one of the only times the Jewish people was not murdered for being Jewish (that often).


Back then there was no real inquiries into what is best for a potential countries future, for example Rwanda was split into geographical lines rather than a western designated tribal boundry.

Israel has been a mess for the length of it's existance and there is unlikely to be anything that will resolve it for generations. The entire area breeds hate and disdain for what each other thinks and stands for.

[bradders]

one Frenchman does not a country make but the right of the syrian land owners to the land would be similar to the British Land owners in Ireland who were recognised legally but many would disagree with the legitimacy of this.

creating Zion in any country is wrong and is still segregation. As an answer to the question the creation of such a state is just getting them out of the way.

[bradders]

anyway all of this is getting far away from the topic.

[Buddha Belly]

I know but I don't get to have a good discussion with you that often.

[leedsveg]

Hi Bradders & Buddha Belly

Many thanks for your words of wisdom re Israel. Hopefully there will be peace one day in the Middle East, but it sure is a long time coming. What would the area be like if modern Israel had not been established? Impossible to say, of course, but I have a suspicion that the Sunnis, Shia, Jews, Christians, Samaritans, Bedouin, Druze, Bahai etc would still be at each others throats. Still, the existance of Israel helps to focus the hatred of these disparate communities.

Anyway, once again thanks for your comments and let us now get back on thread. I'm sure that if anyone wants to comment further on Israel, it would only be fair to open up a new thread.

leedsveg

[Buddha Belly]

I thought we had decided to go back on thread anyway

[bradders]

yup

[leedsveg]

I thought we had decided to go back on thread anyway

I just wanted to ensure that other posters would be on thread.

leedsveg

[cobweb]

This whole argument really winds me up everytime it comes up again. It is brilliant to be completely socially aware and caring with your money. Great. Get by on f*** all cash. Have £10-15 per week for food/ toiletries and see how long that lasts in a socially friendly shopping trip.
I do not think there are any vegans who deliberately shop at supermarkets to make them bigger or deliberately fund capitalistic pig dogs after going through many differant companies first.
I am a socialist and do not think there should be any large companies that are not state controlled or take part in unethical practices. But that is not an option at the moment whilst most of this country is unaware or give a shit about it. My only local shop that is socially and ethically aware is so bloody expensive we would be eating lentils and chickpeas all day everyday, it is also owned by carnivours.
I know a vegan who occassionally eats non vegan food as he has to eat out of FUCKING SKIPS as he can not afford vegan food. Everyone should get off their high horses and look at the reality that everyone else has to live with. It is good that some are financially able to live by a strict moral code but that is not always possible and i find threads like this pillorise and belittle some people's attempts at a better life.

Dig at nearly any company and dirt will arise. That is due to large companies purchasing parts of companies to maximise profits. Breaking up Tesco would leave the way for ASDA to take over until they get broken up and Sainsbury's take over. In the current political system there is always someone to step up and try to take control. Destroying individual companies does not change the system or make things better. It makes the system think of better and smarter ways to take our money and rule our lifes.
EVERY single UK supermarket sells Israeli foods from settlers farms. Even the co-op. To boycott just M&S is a little swipe at the bigger issue. To boycott one shop when nearly every shop is just as guilty for just as many crimes is hypocritical and merely pushes the money into another evil direction.

Anywaybored now as i can rant on for ages and i have probably pee'd you all off.

I thought i had replied and quoted this before - anyway, just to say i agree 100%

[Buddha Belly]

I thought i had replied and quoted this before - anyway, just to say i agree 100%

No, there was two threads being used for the same arguement, this one and the innocent/ coca cola one. So it might be from that. But thanks though

[Ruby Rose]

^ and also it's a theme that's come up in many threads many times... sometimes it's a bit like Groundhog Day round here. That said, everyone has to have the opportunity to work out their stuff in discussion for themselves - sometimes you don't know what you think or believe until someone challenges you to explain your rationale.

[DavidT]

This whole argument really winds me up everytime it comes up again. It is brilliant to be completely socially aware and caring with your money. Great. Get by on f*** all cash. Have £10-15 per week for food/ toiletries and see how long that lasts in a socially friendly shopping trip.

This is true: many have little or no choice but to shop at Aldi or whatever because these places are seen to have the lowest prices. Of course, what it really means is cheap food, cheap in the 'crap' sense. But there you go. This is the world we apparently vote for with the ballot box and with our money.

I do not think there are any vegans who deliberately shop at supermarkets to make them bigger or deliberately fund capitalistic pig dogs after going through many differant companies first.

Thankfully I never suggested it. All I ask is that us vegans educate themselves as to what other people with the money that vegans spend. It follows logically from being a vegan - or does it? I think so.

I am a socialist and do not think there should be any large companies that are not state controlled or take part in unethical practices. But that is not an option at the moment whilst most of this country is unaware or give a shit about it.

I too lean that way quite severely but do my bit to pull others my way. Maybe I'm a bit more vocal or typal (?!) - I write quite a few letters to relevant people on social issues - but that's me. I personally think, as you say, there is way too much complacency these days. It certainly seems like there are far too many people feel that they have no say or influence. It's not strictly true, they've just been led to believe it. Have I got that wrong?

My only local shop that is socially and ethically aware is so bloody expensive we would be eating lentils and chickpeas all day everyday, it is also owned by carnivours.

The supermarket 'culture' has put so many people out of business it is unreal.

Ten years ago, a research organisation called the National Retail Planning Forum - financed by Sainsbury, Tesco, Marks and Spencer, Boots and John Lewis - published a report on the superstores’ impact on employment. It found that there is “strong evidence that new out-of-centre superstores have a negative net impact on retail employment up to 15 km away.” The 93 stores the forum studied were responsible for the net loss of 25,685 employees: every time a large supermarket opened, 276 people lost their jobs. This is hardly surprising. The New Economics Foundation has calculated that every £50,000 spent in small local shops creates one job. You must spend £250,000 in superstores for the same result.

I know a vegan who occassionally eats non vegan food as he has to eat out of FUCKING SKIPS as he can not afford vegan food. Everyone should get off their high horses and look at the reality that everyone else has to live with. It is good that some are financially able to live by a strict moral code but that is not always possible and i find threads like this pillorise and belittle some people's attempts at a better life.

Ah, but it's up to all us like-minded people to work for change. We already sort-of agree on veganism. The whole point of 'debates' like this is to iron out problems with our own viewpoints so we're better prepared for dealing with what you've termed 'reality'.

As vegans I suppose we are on high horses - and so we should be! We all realise the significance of what we do. You're right to question it - but that doesn't alter the moral high ground we occupy. And the fact that like-minded people have to work together to pull ethical living into the mainstream.

I'm sorry if I come across as pillorising. I'll try harder not to. It is easier for me to buy ethical goods because we live such a cheap life! Veganism is cheap. I cycle everywhere, the car costs more in insurance and tax than in petrol because we rarely use it. We have solar hot water and wood heating in a very small, well-insulated house. Our bills are tiny because we don't go for tvs and microwaves, foreign holidays etc. So yes, Buddha Belly, I practice what I preach but I will try not to preach if I can.

Dig at nearly any company and dirt will arise. That is due to large companies purchasing parts of companies to maximise profits. Breaking up Tesco would leave the way for ASDA to take over until they get broken up and Sainsbury's take over.

Not quite, BB. We have to both support the ethical companies (OK, those who can afford to!) and we have to pursue the people we vote for to regulate all companies. If the 25% monopoly rule was applied, we would end up with far more choice of supermarkets and - according to the free marketeers - lower prices through competition, not that I believe that, but it would be a step in the right direction.

Destroying individual companies does not change the system or make things better.

I'm not talking about destroying any companies.

EVERY single UK supermarket sells Israeli foods from settlers farms. Even the co-op. To boycott just M&S is a little swipe at the bigger issue. To boycott one shop when nearly every shop is just as guilty for just as many crimes is hypocritical and merely pushes the money into another evil direction.

We must boycott Israeli food everywhere and tell everyone we know to do the same. It worked on South Africa.

Anyway bored now as i can rant on for ages and i have probably pee'd you all off.

No you haven't at all. We're on the same side and we need to get our minor differences in perspective. We'll never get rid of differences - we just need to acknowledge them and work with them.

Thanks for your reply.

[DavidT]

This in my case causes an issue as some of my family live in Israel and consider themselves to be Israeli. Some of them farm fruit for a living and it is this very fruit that I boycott.

Then in your case you have exceptional influence - you have to show your love your family but let them know the despair you feel at the situation they are in. I'd be certain they are totally well-meaning people, as are most in Israel. Ordinary humans trying to get on with the business of living.

The same arguments for boycotting your relations' produce apply to organic growers in Israel. Some say you should not boycott organic growers - I'd say they are equally boycottable, perhaps more so. Why? Because they are more likely to be thinking, caring, concerned people. We need these types of people to influence their government. Boycotts would hit organic growers harder because of the intense pressure from toxic farming and the small market for their products. They can't just sell to Safeway instead of M&S.

Therefore (bearing in mind all Israeli produce should be shunned) these organic people (and your relatives) need to work harder at changing the way their country is run.

Very harsh judgement but there you go. We are up against two entities here, every time: society and the state. Two completely different and, more and more these days, unconnected entities.

[DavidT]

^ and also it's a theme that's come up in many threads many times... sometimes it's a bit like Groundhog Day round here. That said, everyone has to have the opportunity to work out their stuff in discussion for themselves - sometimes you don't know what you think or believe until someone challenges you to explain your rationale.

I agree.

And I unreservedly apologise if (a) all this has been discussed before and (b) if it's way off beam for a vegan forum.

Ethics encompass veganism; or is it the other way round?

[Jiffy]

Anywaybored now as i can rant on for ages and i have probably pee'd you all off.

Only by virtue of your gratuitous effing and blinding TBH

[KcCrash]

I agree power is in your pocket most of the time. I despise lining the pockets of the fat cats. I buy second hand everything, I make food from scratch most of the time, never buy brands, never eat out, never buy anything that would be worth advertising, make my own gifts, even when I buy alcohol I buy the cheapest I can. Most of my furniture, clothes, even the cages I keep my rescue rodents in are second hand.

[puca]

I don't really have much money... Of my month's earnings, around 60% goes on rent, council tax and bills and that is before I even consider buying food, or costs of transport to get to work!

I live pretty basically... I buy toiletries from Lush, which I consider a good investment as they last for ages. I use Green People toothpaste which again, lasts for a good while, even though it costs a bit more.

I use a veg box scheme and the local market for food and washing up liquid... I buy spices from independent Indian shops up the road from me and occasionally go to Sainsburys, or Waitrose. I prefer to support local businesses to be honest.

I'd say I spend around £60 per month on food, though being on a low income is crappy and I dread bank holidays because it means I'll be worse off. I'd love to be more decadent and buy clothing from more 'ethical' places than New Look... I know one day, things will be easier!

I'm as 'whole food' and 'organic' as possible though, it can be done on a budget to a certain degree. I do buy the occasional treat mind...

But companies I avoid tend to be Nestle, Coca Cola and the big polluters. I point blank will not buy from them. Granted, I have bought Pepsico in the past but I think they might allow trade union and environmental abuse too?

Oh and I also get dental insurance, by paying a small amount a month. I hate it, but the treatment I am having now I could not afford otherwise!

I think it depends on priorities mind... I don't drive, I don't go on holiday... I don't really have much of a life as I can't afford much else. I kinda feel lucky that I didn't really have much money groing up, as I sometimes really struggle to make ends meet.

But £60 per month for a vegan diet... I have no idea if oher people find that expensive. I feel lucky I can afford so much or food, as I have been far worse off.

But living 100% ethically is solid. Buy this, don't buy that... upport this cause, support that... Greenwash, guilt tripping... *Bangs head against wall*

[DavidT]

I don't really have much money... Of my month's earnings, around 60% goes on rent, council tax and bills and that is before I even consider buying food, or costs of transport to get to work!

I live pretty basically... I buy toiletries from Lush, which I consider a good investment as they last for ages. I use Green People toothpaste which again, lasts for a good while, even though it costs a bit more.

I use a veg box scheme and the local market for food and washing up liquid... I buy spices from independent Indian shops up the road from me and occasionally go to Sainsburys, or Waitrose. I prefer to support local businesses to be honest.

I'd say I spend around £60 per month on food, though being on a low income is crappy and I dread bank holidays because it means I'll be worse off. I'd love to be more decadent and buy clothing from more 'ethical' places than New Look... I know one day, things will be easier!

I'm as 'whole food' and 'organic' as possible though, it can be done on a budget to a certain degree. I do buy the occasional treat mind...

But companies I avoid tend to be Nestle, Coca Cola and the big polluters. I point blank will not buy from them. Granted, I have bought Pepsico in the past but I think they might allow trade union and environmental abuse too?

Oh and I also get dental insurance, by paying a small amount a month. I hate it, but the treatment I am having now I could not afford otherwise!

You're a great example to us all, really. Admirable. Keep it up.

[BlackCats]

I'd say I spend around £60 per month on food, £60 per month for a vegan diet... I have no idea if oher people find that expensive. I feel lucky I can afford so much or food, as I have been far worse off.

Wow, that's not a lot at all.

I do avoid Nestle, Unilever (apart from Marmite but I will get a replacement for that!) and P&G.

I go to (the animal friendly) charity shops for most of my clothes but I don't really do much else. It seems really overwhelming to even find out about the different companies.

I bank with Co-operative but our mortgage isn't with them. We were going to change our energy to a green supplier but it was too expensive.

I did used to use a London based veggie box scheme at one point but now I just shop at Sainsbury's.

I don't drive but I don't have to as I live in London and me and my husband get free travel.

[DavidT]

I do avoid Nestle, Unilever (apart from Marmite but I will get a replacement for that!) and P&G.

Vecon?

[BlackCats]

Vecon?

I don't like that. I think I might try Meridian.

[DavidT]

I don't like that. I think I might try Meridian.

Yeah, it's a stock rather than a spread. I just spread it very thinly!

Natex?

Vegemite? I don't know if that's vegan offhand and it's relatively recently been bought by Kraft.

Meridian are a fairly 'ethical' company to the best of my knowledge and do some organic stuff.

[puca]

Wow, that's not a lot at all.

I do avoid Nestle, Unilever (apart from Marmite but I will get a replacement for that!) and P&G.

I go to (the animal friendly) charity shops for most of my clothes but I don't really do much else. It seems really overwhelming to even find out about the different companies.

I bank with Co-operative but our mortgage isn't with them. We were going to change our energy to a green supplier but it was too expensive.

I did used to use a London based veggie box scheme at one point but now I just shop at Sainsbury's.

I don't drive but I don't have to as I live in London and me and my husband get free travel.

Our charity shops are rubbish!!! I'm a size 16 and can't find anythin at all.

But yeah, forot to mention Co-op bank. I love 'em and such friendly customer service as well. Don't Co-op have a phone service now? I mean a telephone co-op for landlines... I think me Mam uses that.

But any info on green energy would be awesome if anyone has it... We struggle a great deal with energy bills, they seem to have rocketed. Ecotricity looks more expensive than EDF who we currently use. My flatmates won't even consider switching if it costs more.

Ohh and Blackcats... I got a nonUnilever Marmite in Lidl ages ago, dunno if it's still in production. You can get Vegemite as well, which is owned by Kraft.

[puca]

I don't like that. I think I might try Meridian.

What area of the UK are you in?

http://www.greenergreens.com/ <--- My scheme!

Purple sprouted brocolli is in season now. Mmmmmm!

[DavidT]

But any info on green energy would be awesome if anyone has it... We struggle a great deal with energy bills, they seem to have rocketed. Ecotricity looks more expensive than EDF who we currently use. My flatmates won't even consider switching if it costs more.

Try here and here. I've heard people on other fora mention Ebico and Ecotricity as doing good deals.

You'll have to do some research to find the cheapest combined with most ethical but go on, do! Let us know.

[BlackCats]

Ohh and Blackcats... I got a nonUnilever Marmite in Lidl ages ago, dunno if it's still in production. You can get Vegemite as well, which is owned by Kraft.

I went to Lidl for the first time the other day. Are they unethical though? I thought they would be as they are so cheap?

Thanks Puca for that link. I might try and go back to a veggie box scheme.

[KcCrash]

i've wondered this about Lidl too
I get £60 per week. I put about £10 a week to bills. I have a car and a mobile phone, a cider habit, and 20 rodents to feed. I think I can safely say the fat cats don't get much outta me.

[BlackCats]

I was going to say as well I know these types of threads sometimes get some people's backs up but I actually find it useful to know what is ethical and not. I would be willing to change the way I shop even if it was slightly more expensive, it's just having the knowledge really.

[puca]

I went to Lidl for the first time the other day. Are they unethical though? I thought they would be as they are so cheap?

I have no idea... They probably are unethical in some areas, most things are. But a German supermarket chain... Unilever... Kraft... If you want a marmite thing, there aren't many options.

Lidl tends to be all continental brands though. I don' know if Lidl marmite is any more or any less ethical...

I don't really like it in there. There staff don't seem to be treated very well... Some manager started yelling at a guy whilst he was serving me and put him down.

I was like... Wtf?

I don't like supermarkets... It's sensory overload.