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Thread: where does your money go?

  1. #51
    Zero
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    Every time this topic is raised the person raising it just seems to come across as if no one has ever thought of this before and that we all need to be educated because all vegans aren't going far enough.

    I am sure that is not your intention DavidT but if you read your first post again that is how it comes across. Anyway, I'll put that aside and continue the conversation......

    Are the people at the top of large corporations really the evil people they are often made out to be? Not always no, there are good and bad people everywhere. Should they be slammed as harshly for using the tools avaliable to make business larger within the model of a world that already exists? I can't answer that.

    A large "vegan Tesco" corporation wouldn't be much better, although the obvious benefits would be there, but it would still kill small business.

    So yes stricter regulations should be put into place, businesses shouldn't be able to take on monopoly of a particular market share.

    The question with this whole thing is not just a matter of "where does your money go?" we should also be looking at "where does our money come from?"

    Many of us work for large corporations that pay us massively lower wages to the minority and gigantic amounts to the few. While the few at the top rake it in and live higher and better lifestyles it is us at the bottom getting criticized for spending our money where the prices are lower.

    We really must question the monetary system as a whole.

    As one example, lets say I give my money to my local grocer (which I do on a regular basis), some of the money goes from him to a distribution centre, some of that money goes to a large farming corporation who pay their workers next to nothing, exploit them and also raise animals for meat. Meanwhile my grocer puts the money in his Barclays Bank Account with part of the interest going toward shares in HLS.

    So in answer to the question "where does your money go?" - I quite often don't really know, as much as I consider it.

  2. #52
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    From the following site;
    http://makewealthhistory.org/2009/03...l-supermarket/


    Lidl
    Fairtrade: Has its own certified sub-brand, Fairglobe, which has five products so far.

    Environment: Scores worst on recyclable packaging. Does not report on environmental impact, so we can only presume that its making no effort.
    Animal welfare: Limited stocking in higher welfare alternatives, but has made no commitments of its own.
    Corporate behaviour: Terrible reputation among European retail unions, and caused a scandal last year when it emerged that Lidl routinely spied on its employees in Germany. A hugely complex corporate structure makes it very hard to hold Lidl accountable.

    Lidl is a vast supermarket that has probably got the same priciples as any other larger supermarket. The costs of the produce would indicate low payments through blockbuying and forcing down of producers payments. I don't think there is much of an issue with product placement fee's or 'volluntary' kitty's for cross product advertising or many 2 for 1 deals. The pay is somewhat high for UK supermarkets, I think, Up to 8.20 an hour.

  3. #53
    Johnstuff's Avatar
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    Quote DavidT View Post
    I've found that too but they are usually much more willing to listen to their customers.
    Yeah, I'll see if I can email/write to them. I'd feel odd somehow going in and asking if they could stop selling meat 'cause it's unethical. They must know that already.

    Maybe I'm too much of an idealist (well a cynical one ) and I find it quite dissapointing when I see even the 'ethical' places/companies selling stuff that isn't even vegan (eg. I found some musli made by Whole Earth that has honey in it).

    "Ethics encompass veganism; or is it the other way round?"

    IMO you can't be ethical without being vegan, but you can be vegan without being ethical.

    Does anyone know of a list (maybe a website) that lists all known 100% vegan organic ethical companies/shops?


    Edit: Zero, you make some very good points there - this thread moves too fast for me to keep up with it lol!

    Our whole system is pretty bad really. Maybe humans are pretty bad. It's like you can't do right for doing wrong or however the saying goes.

  4. #54
    puca
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    Quote Johnstuff View Post

    IMO you can't be ethical without being vegan, but you can be vegan without being ethical.
    Depends on what you call ethical?

    You can set standards, but end up in a self-flagellating cycle of trying to keep to these standards and finding out company X sources ingredients fron non-Fairtrade plantations in Ethiopia, or that company Y has oppressed trade unions in its Columbian factories, or that company Z has palm oil in...

    It's impossible.

    As people living vegan lifestyles, we can only do our best. I think that what is 'ethical' or 'non-ethical' doesn't have to be absolute... We all create our own world morals and ideas?

    Also... Setting ideas out as 'ethical' and 'non ethical' can lead to pointing fingers, which isn't useful behaviour (unless directed in campaigns against businesses who are being destructive?)...

    So maybe we should look at causing the least harm we can, with our resources and capabilities?

    I mean provided we think is is good to do so.

  5. #55
    Johnstuff's Avatar
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    "It's impossible. "

    Kind of. In theory a group of like minded people could live in a seperate group, grow their own food (vegan/organic), make thier own clothes, provide thier own enertainment. Such a group would be close to being ethical IMO.

    Problem is it's hard not to rely on the system (for healthcare etc.). Also being human, the dominant ones end up running things while the others get pissed off with them.

    I guess if you are in the system it's impossible to be 100% ethical.

    I love biking, if I was not part of the system I couldn't get bike parts etc. Maybe I've been corrupted and become addicted to what the system provides so that I cannot escape it.

    Sorry I'm waffling a bit lol!

  6. #56
    Zero
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    What you are saying makes perfect sense to me Johnstuff, it is well thought out, I'd hardly call it "waffling"

  7. #57
    cobweb
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    Threads like these irk me a bit because i think we're just living in such an imperfect world that i feel a bit pointless to worry about it all - simply as it overwhelms me i suppose. However i do think it's a valid discussion.

    Like others i don't exactly keep the fat cats fat - we don't do holidays even in the U.K anymore, and if we buy something expensive like a T.V it has to last til it breaks, usually. I would personally never buy branded goods or designer labels either unless i had a very valid reason to do so, e.g far superior quality.

    We live in small house, too, very well insulated, so although its heated by oil it's extremely economical.

  8. #58
    cobweb
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    Quote Johnstuff View Post
    "It's impossible. "

    Kind of. In theory a group of like minded people could live in a seperate group, grow their own food (vegan/organic), make thier own clothes, provide thier own enertainment. Such a group would be close to being ethical IMO.

    Problem is it's hard not to rely on the system (for healthcare etc.). Also being human, the dominant ones end up running things while the others get pissed off with them.

    I guess if you are in the system it's impossible to be 100% ethical.

    I love biking, if I was not part of the system I couldn't get bike parts etc. Maybe I've been corrupted and become addicted to what the system provides so that I cannot escape it.

    Sorry I'm waffling a bit lol!

    I agree and i suppose i personally feel i am so a part of the system now, relying on welfare and free medical treatment, etc, that i sort of gave up looking at the finer points.

  9. #59
    puca
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    Quote Johnstuff View Post
    "It's impossible. "

    Kind of. In theory a group of like minded people could live in a seperate group, grow their own food (vegan/organic), make thier own clothes, provide thier own enertainment. Such a group would be close to being ethical IMO.
    Arguably... If you eat only local and your own produce, you are not supporting say... Fairtrade initiatives, or organic farmers... Both industries have been struggling in the recession.

    That is, if you think it is moral to support an industry... It'd be nice to be 'outside the corporate box' and we can do things for this... BUT in a way, it could end up being like having your head in the sand to things globally which ma need your support.

    Theres no easy answer.

  10. #60
    cobweb
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    i agree, there is no answer
    (and Puca thats a tiny food budget imo, i spend over 100 per week for 3 people + 1 dog! - and well over that if i used local shops rather Tesco)

    at the moment i accept benefits and i don't pay tax - great, so i don't support all the nasty things that taxes pay for - but without the 'fat cats' where would i be? .

    Its like people were up in arms here last year when Tesco arrived - yet Tesco put a lot more back into the local economy here than all the other shops put together. They also provide employment for many people and are about to build a timber eco store here.

    On the other hand the local greengrocer/ironmonger i used to shop with, who stock local produce and some vegan/fairtrade items have now got a firearms dealership licence - they also sell local meat/fish. So i go to Tesco and refuse to feel guilty about it .

  11. #61
    nature|nurture
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    - My money goes to mostly non-vegan people and they (the non-vegan people) are famous for buying lots of non-vegan stuff.

    - Democracy implies that all members of the society have equal access to power. Since we don't have an equal amount of money each, I wouldn't call it a "democracy".
    (It was meant as the answer to DavidT's statement about my money being the only democracy I have left.)
    Last edited by bringsMore; Apr 8th, 2009 at 03:58 PM. Reason: clarifying

  12. #62
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    ^ more good points. Yep, there's no easy answer.

    We all do our best with what we can. Still it's good to know about what's going on.

    Cheers Zero

  13. #63
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    Quote Zero View Post
    Every time this topic is raised the person raising it just seems to come across as if no one has ever thought of this before and that we all need to be educated because all vegans aren't going far enough.
    In fairness, some posters have expressed positive feelings about this particular thread. Also, I noticed a lot of talk about the Tescos and Asdas etc of this world and this set me thinking about ethics of spending generally.

    Quote Zero View Post
    Are the people at the top of large corporations really the evil people they are often made out to be? Not always no, there are good and bad people everywhere. Should they be slammed as harshly for using the tools avaliable to make business larger within the model of a world that already exists? I can't answer that.
    The way the rules work today mean that, as cobweb has pointed out, ethics = disaster. Therefore a company making an ethical choice makes less money for the shareholders, for which the CEO is then sacked. This is law.

    I personally believe that the personhood acquired by corporations needs to be challenged; with rights come responsibilities. What we are experiencing is the acquisition of more rights by companies as time goes by and the transposition of responsibilities onto people and the planet.

    Quote Zero View Post
    A large "vegan Tesco" corporation wouldn't be much better, although the obvious benefits would be there, but it would still kill small business.
    But would it? Why should it? It doesn't strike me as absolute. As Ghandi is reputed to have said when asked what he thought of civilisation: "I think it would be a good idea".

    Quote Zero View Post
    We really must question the monetary system as a whole.
    Indubitably.

    Quote Zero View Post
    As one example, lets say I give my money to my local grocer (which I do on a regular basis), some of the money goes from him to a distribution centre, some of that money goes to a large farming corporation who pay their workers next to nothing, exploit them and also raise animals for meat.
    Exactly the point of this thread. Know where your money is going.

    Quote Zero View Post
    So in answer to the question "where does your money go?" - I quite often don't really know, as much as I consider it.
    It isn't easy being green.

  14. #64
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    Quote puca View Post
    So maybe we should look at causing the least harm we can, with our resources and capabilities?
    Well put. This is the best we can do.

  15. #65
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    Quote bringsMore View Post
    - My money goes to mostly non-vegan people and they (the non-vegan people) are famous for buying lots of non-vegan stuff.

    - Democracy implies that all members of the society have equal access to power. Since we don't have an equal amount of money each, I wouldn't call it a "democracy".
    (It was meant as the answer to DavidT's statement about my money being the only democracy I have left.)
    True. It's a bad choice of word, democracy. I really meant, the only influence business recognises - but it's plutocracy, the American version of democracy.

  16. #66
    Zero
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    Quote DavidT View Post
    Exactly the point of this thread. Know where your money is going.
    So when you go into your local independent shops do you ask them where they bank, who their suppliers are, who the distibuters are and then do background research into those companies?

    I'm not suggesting that because of this it should just be a "free for all" and one shouldn't try to do ones best but it isn't really as simple as not shopping at Tesco etc is it?


  17. #67
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    Quote Zero View Post
    So when you go into your local independent shops do you ask them where they bank, who their suppliers are, who the distibuters are and then do background research into those companies?
    Over time, this information could be accessed, yes, if you were that obsessive. You would expect an ethically-run business to do some of this research themselves, though!

    But on a real basis, you'd know the shop people enough to be in conversation with them and let them know your concerns. My local wholefood shop knows I moan about certain companies - and they've acted upon some of my complaints - and I did say to them once that I would never use a bank - I always stick to cash or credit unions or some kind of mutual society (there's another thread); I might bring that up again!

    Quote Zero View Post
    but it isn't really as simple as not shopping at Tesco etc is it?:
    Did I say it was?

  18. #68
    Zero
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    Quote DavidT View Post
    Did I say it was?
    Nope, I didn't say you did, but I felt it was worth mentioning since Tesco and supermarkets seem to have been vilified by this thread a lot

  19. #69
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    As usual with these things:

    Anybody who makes less effort than me is tending towards hypercritical wimpness.
    Anybody who makes more effort than me is tending towards being an obsessive.


  20. #70
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    Quote Zero View Post
    Nope, I didn't say you did, but I felt it was worth mentioning since Tesco and supermarkets seem to have been vilified by this thread a lot
    No more than they deserve.

    Yes, they're easy targets.

    But easier targets are the bigger purchases - the tv, the fridge, the car, the holiday etc. That's really where the thread is pointed. The fact that this is a vegan forum makes food a central issue, though.

  21. #71
    Zero
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    Quote leedsveg View Post
    As usual with these things:

    Anybody who makes less effort than me is tending towards hypercritical wimpness.
    Anybody who makes more effort than me is tending towards being an obsessive.

    Indeed things can go that way at times, or at least seem that way.

    It's not really about that as far as I am concerned though.

    Many people make as much of a an effort as they can, others don't but I don't look about on anyone for doing "less than me", in fact I don't think I even really look at it that closely, I think you'd have to analyze someone else's day to day life to figure that out and that I am not willing to do.

    It's hard enough to find where to draw your own line sometimes without looking at everyone else's

  22. #72
    Buddha Belly
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    The point of civilisation is to provide citizens more than just the necessities of life and help them attain enough free time to enjoy the luxuries as well. To be so self surficiant that there is no time to relax is a waste of the last few thousand years of dedicated invention and creativeness. We point out all the time that we should be able to use local shops that use local building societies and local sourced produce.

    Where did the research come from for the ecological washing liquid or make and produce the computers that we are all using at this moment? Evil corrupting corporations and unfortunately as a side effect of a war based use. Hardly anything what so ever that is purchased from someone with money in Europe is untainted from non-vegan or non-ethical companies. eg;
    • I work for a charity, that gets homeless people off the streets, that banks with Barclays.
    • I spend that money on Lentils in local shop.
    • They are carnivours and spend some on meat.
    • They pay the wholesalers with the money
    • The wholesalers may bank with an unethical bank, very much so if a larger company.
    • The wholesalers pay the producers who may or may not be vegan, chances are not.
    • The producers hand the money down to the farmer who originally produced the lentils. They will spend it on any matter of unvegan goodies
    Or

    • I buy the ecological washing powder
    • The money eventually goes to the manufacturer
    • they pay money to the chemical companies that supply them chemicals.
    • The money has probably passed through 4-? banks of unknown name who may or may not be 'good'
    Ever hear of a chemical producer who is ethically aware and does not pollute in any way shape or form?

    We can all chat to the local shop owners and be happy with them but where do we stop?
    To live in the west means to know at some point your money goes to a group we do not agree with. The only way for it not to do so is to live a lifestyle that not everyone can do and if it was there would be a major breakdown of society in this country (personally i see that as a good thing). The land needed for this would be (I think it is) an acre and a half for a family of four. That is sufficiant for everything a family would need to survive without any outside input, eg wheat, tea, salt, sugar etc. The actual amount of land in the Uk is enough for 0.004 acres per four person unit and that is taking it for granted all land was arable.
    There is too high a population for self sufficiantly to be anything more than a pipe dream for most and for them it means having to surrender something to survive. By being vegan we manage to make the world a better place and do what each individual can do to their best.

  23. #73
    Zero
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    ^ Excellent post BB

  24. #74
    Buddha Belly
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    (slow nod of head in thanks)

  25. #75
    cobweb
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    David T this is not meant to be any kind of attack on you but i wondered how you make any money that you need? .

    I really do admire people who are pretty much self sufficient but find they are pretty rare and hard to come by. I'm genuinely interested in how people manage though. I used to live with someone who ate out of skips and did voluntary work in return for a free flat and cast-off clothing. He also hitched or walked for transport. He did take benefits though which were mostly spent on drink and tobacco. He never preached to others, just quietly lived his life, and i did admire him .

    Still think he may have been stuck without the benefit handouts but he was pretty close to self sufficiency. However, he still had to find people in a position to give him that flat, etc - it was actually owned by an ethical charity but there again who was financially supporting that?. Its like a never ending riddle so all i can suggest is that people do whatever makes them feel comfortable within themselves.

  26. #76
    leedsveg
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    Quote Zero View Post
    Indeed things can go that way at times, or at least seem that way.

    It's not really about that as far as I am concerned though.

    Many people make as much of a an effort as they can, others don't but I don't look about on anyone for doing "less than me", in fact I don't think I even really look at it that closely, I think you'd have to analyze someone else's day to day life to figure that out and that I am not willing to do.

    It's hard enough to find where to draw your own line sometimes without looking at everyone else's
    Hi Zero

    I was using two extremes and thinking that we each live in our own 'vegan comfort zone' somewhere between the two extremes. In other words, you 'draw your own line' where you feel comfortable. We may not think about these things much (if at all) but it can be difficult not to when challenged by an 'extremist':

    "I could never live a vegan lifestyle because I love bacon so much."
    vs.
    "Sell all though hast and give to the poor."

    leedsveg

  27. #77
    Zero
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    I though you were making a humorous point with that, but when I thought about it more that does seem to be how a lot of people approach these kinds of situations

  28. #78
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    Where did the research come from for the ecological washing liquid or make and produce the computers that we are all using at this moment? Evil corrupting corporations and unfortunately as a side effect of a war based use. Hardly anything what so ever that is purchased from someone with money in Europe is untainted from non-vegan or non-ethical companies.
    It used to be that research was carried out for the sake of it, largely through universities; thus, knowledge was acquired for the advancement of humankind as whole and was paid for by societies generally. Research with profit as the motive was rarely pursued and would rarely get social funding.

    Now, most educational establishments are controlled in part or sometimes wholly (this is particularly true in America) for the purposes of financial gain. And look at the amount of money spent by the pharmaceutical industries researching treatments for ailments brought about by those same industries! It's big money.

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    eg;
    • I work for a charity, that gets homeless people off the streets, that banks with Barclays.
    .
    You can influence your charity to change to a more ethical bank.

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    eg;
    • I spend that money on Lentils in local shop.
    • They are carnivours and spend some on meat.
    • They pay the wholesalers with the money
    • The wholesalers may bank with an unethical bank, very much so if a larger company.
    • The wholesalers pay the producers who may or may not be vegan, chances are not.
    • The producers hand the money down to the farmer who originally produced the lentils. They will spend it on any matter of unvegan goodies
    This I agree is a bigger problem and you're right to put it in writing, BB. It is overwhelming for many people but my point is, break it down and do what you can. For instance, try to get lentils at a shop where they're not carnivores - I do! And so on, wherever you are in the 'chain of events'.

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    eg;
    • I buy the ecological washing powder
    • The money eventually goes to the manufacturer
    • they pay money to the chemical companies that supply them chemicals.
    • The money has probably passed through 4-? banks of unknown name who may or may not be 'good'
    Ever hear of a chemical producer who is ethically aware and does not pollute in any way shape or form?
    Well, apart from the fact that Group 4's investments in Ecover put me off them as a company, Ecover were doing all the right things. They weren't using chemicals as we know them. They were using natural ingredients. So maybe you ought to pick another example, this one is not good.

    I know what you're getting at and the comment I made about lentils apply. Just don't try to wash your knickers in them.

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    We can all chat to the local shop owners and be happy with them but where do we stop?
    Wherever you want.

    My point in opening this thread is (barring the fact that these issues may have been discussed elsewhere in this forum) to get a flavour of what people are doing to lessen their adverse effects on the world.

    It's obvious some people have never thought about it. It's obvious some people have thought about it but can't be bothered. It's obvious that some people have thought about it and do their best. It's obvious that some people have thought about it but are not allowed to do anything about it.

    All that was pretty obvious before I started the thread but I wanted some real concentrated feedback and success stories because there are those that would be interested besides me.

    And, because I have been tackling these issues since when....1986, believe it or not... I thought I might have something to offer. If I come across as a bit confrontational, that's me trying to get things down in writing a quickly as the thoughts occur and I don't mean it.

    It's one small way I can help the whole vegan movement, I think (amongst other ways of course).

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    To live in the west means to know at some point your money goes to a group we do not agree with.
    I know what you mean, though I do not believe it is an absolute truth.

    I believe we all have a duty to do what we can to fight what you say. Being vegan is a major first step. Once being vegan becomes normal for us, we can direct our energies, large and small, at wider issues on the same ethical plane.

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    There is too high a population for self sufficiantly to be anything more than a pipe dream for most and for them it means having to surrender something to survive.
    And there, BB, you touch on the real problem.

  29. #79
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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    David T this is not meant to be any kind of attack on you but i wondered how you make any money that you need? .
    Warning: ramble coming up.

    I am one of four people who own our own printing works. We've never been high profit people (there are only six of us in total - the turnover can't get very high) and we pay ourselves well below the Irish industrial average wage, which I know is a poor indicator of course.

    We're feeling the pinch just as others are; our business is up-and-down week-to-week. We've benefited from two major printers in the area going out of business, so that makes you wonder about the advantage of size!

    Coming across organic food in 1986, when I was a student, turned a light on in my head and made previously unknown thought processes kick in...it just seemed so logical, so perfect. Vegetarianism followed a few years later, around 1990, then veganism I don't know when, as food just sort of 'became' vegan without effort.

    I calculate we've eaten around 95% organic food since 1986. Veganism is so cheap I have never found it difficult to justify buying organic and anyway had the driving zeal inside me of 'doing the right thing', meaning we do without other things so we've always eaten well.

    For instance, I refuse to take personal loans (land and buildings might be an exception), saving up for things I think I need and doing without stuff other people find essential (mobile phones, tvs, holidays etc). Staying out of debt is one of the best favours I can do for myself.

    So long as we keep this business going, I have a small but guaranteed income which may grow if we all work hard enough. We have no children living at home so that's a financial pressure I don't have. I can see how feeding a whole family organically - and pursuing other ethical aims - would be far too much for most people.

    I'm grateful that my two grown-up daughters seem to be more ethically aware than me in several areas and sometimes put me to shame. Yes, I'm grateful for that - it keeps me questioning.

    I've gone a bit off beam here, hope you don't mind.

    Quote cobweb View Post
    I really do admire people who are pretty much self sufficient but find they are pretty rare and hard to come by.
    We're not self sufficient by any means but we have a plan for it. I may be dead before we're half-way there. My wife is growing a wide range of stuff, from the usual onions and spuds through to jerusalem artichokes, strawberries etc and we're getting a polytunnel this year.

    Having a partner (if a partner is what you want) willing to learn and do this stuff and enjoy it can prove to be what's really rare and hard to come by.

    Quote cobweb View Post
    I'm genuinely interested in how people manage though.
    I hope my bit helps. Feel free to ask questions.

    We saved to buy a solar hot water panel a couple of years ago and that is one of the best investments ever. It needs no electricity to run and our main source of hot water otherwise (apart from a back boiler on the wood stove) is an immersion heater, which has been on for no more than a few days since we got the panel. Our Airtricity bill is half what it was as a result.

    This is the type of thing I'm trying to do - get into having as cheap a life as possible!

    Quote cobweb View Post
    I used to live with someone who ate out of skips and did voluntary work in return for a free flat and cast-off clothing. He also hitched or walked for transport. He did take benefits though which were mostly spent on drink and tobacco. He never preached to others, just quietly lived his life, and i did admire him .
    I'd be happy to come back in another life and be him.

    Quote cobweb View Post
    However, he still had to find people in a position to give him that flat, etc - it was actually owned by an ethical charity but there again who was financially supporting that?
    Again, he'd be in a better position to question and influence the ethical charity. If he was a good tenant whom they respected and trusted, they would listen to him if he questioned their choice of backers more than if I tried!

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    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Hi Zero

    I was using two extremes and thinking that we each live in our own 'vegan comfort zone' somewhere between the two extremes. In other words, you 'draw your own line' where you feel comfortable. We may not think about these things much (if at all) but it can be difficult not to when challenged by an 'extremist':

    "I could never live a vegan lifestyle because I love bacon so much."
    vs.
    "Sell all though hast and give to the poor."

    leedsveg
    Apologies. I can be extreme.

    No, take back those apologies and let me be as extreme as I like!

    As long as I cause no harm to creatures (apart from maybe you lot rolling your eyes a bit much), will you allow me that?

    We need extremists to make us question our own positions. I get ashamed at my own puny efforts to be 'extreme' when I come across some people...

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    The thing I'm finding quite awakening (and unsettling in a good way) in your posts, DavidT, is your evident unshakeable confidence that one person makes a difference, and that your voice will be listened to and that your beliefs will influence other people's financial and social choices (for example, suggesting that BB should tell his employers to bank more ethically).

    It reminds me that my confidence (and thereby actvism) used to be greater than now. For some reason, I generally now tend to feel that although together we are mighty and our voices are heard, the individual voice is just shouting into the wind. I'm minded to think through how I got here now...!

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    Quote Ruby Rose View Post
    The thing I'm finding quite awakening (and unsettling in a good way) in your posts, DavidT, is your evident unshakeable confidence that one person makes a difference, and that your voice will be listened to and that your beliefs will influence other people's financial and social choices (for example, suggesting that BB should tell his employers to bank more ethically).

    It reminds me that my confidence (and thereby actvism) used to be greater than now. For some reason, I feel that I generally now tend to feel that although together we are mighty and our voices are heard, the individual voice is just shouting into the wind. I'm minded to think through how I got here now...!
    I'll take that as a compliment, if I may.

    Individuals can make a difference - the trouble is, it's hard, it takes a lot of time, you may end up just 'shouting into the wind', you may easily be barking up the entirely wrong tree.

    That's absolutely no reason not to do something for your beliefs, exactly like not voting (voting seems the ultimate in pointlessness) means someone else is voting on your behalf, making decisions for you.

    Anyway, our points cross where you say together we are mighty. This is true. This is why vegans should discuss their differences and accept them and work towards a common goal.

    Having said that, if I as an individual could influence, say, two others to seek out a local organic grower rather than simply do the easy thing, give money to Morrisons, then I've been successful. Who knows what those two might then do?

    I never expect my voice to be listened to because I'm a natural cynic; but I keep trying because I'm a natural optimist too.

    I mentioned in another thread that I write a lot of letters on social issues. By 'a lot' I mean more than most but not masses. I have had an influence here and there, funnily enough in the area of road safety in my town - but they were problems that had to be solved anyway; my letters may have been coincidental. But you simply do not know the influence your expression of views ultimately has.

    But I am constantly saying 'I must do this' or 'I must write to them' etc because the way we live our lives these days prohibits a lot of this action.

    Which is what 'they' want. Know what I mean?

    Edit: careful about editing your posts! I quoted you, RR, before you edited, so I've edited my post to match. It's best to preview first.

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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    -

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    I didn't expect you to be quite so hot on my heels with a reply. A period of consideration and reflection can be appropriate! And we all have the right to a second draft here, you know! (I changed my wording slightly after I had reflected on what I said for a while, not because I didn't preview - it's a bit bloody cheeky to tell me to preview first... but I'll take it in good heart.)

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    Default Re: where does your money go?



    Sorry...

  36. #86
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    I'm a bit offended, David T, by your comment about finding a wife willing to live more self sufficiently, that sounds rather sexist to me! .

    My long term dream has been to have some land with a modest sized home on it and grow my own produce, whilst at the same time creating a haven for animals living wild or possible abandoned 'domestic' animals. Unfortunately i have ended up far from that situation because life swept me in a different direction. I now have a very disabled husband and an Autistic son. I feel that my own morals dictate to me that i cannot contemplate leaving my husband whilst he relies on me so much. Yet i cannot say i am 'happy' with my lot.........

    I won't give up on my dreams, though, it sounds a bit cold i know, but i am likely to become a relatively young widow and i hope to be well enough myself to pursue my 'dream life' single handed .

    I also think that you make a good point, Ruby Rose, when i first went vegan i was determined to make my voice heard. I think somewhere along the way i gave up trying, swamped as i felt by people's ignorance and lack of interest . I definitely made myself ill by worrying so much about things that were out of my jurisdiction and i really can't afford to risk my well being like that again with 2 people solely relying on me.

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    Quote cobweb View Post
    I'm a bit offended, David T, by your comment about finding a wife willing to live more self sufficiently, that sounds rather sexist to me! ..
    It is, isn't it? I've edited my post to suit. Thoughts running ahead of sense there. Thanks for pointing it out, cobweb.

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    Quote cobweb View Post
    I'm a bit offended, David T, by your comment about finding a wife willing to live more self sufficiently, that sounds rather sexist to me! .
    (I laughed at David's comment because I thought the way he phrased it sounded very clinical.)

    When I first turned vegan I also decided to switch to a green supplier, buy only organic local fruit and veg and I wanted to start an animal retreat and eventually grow my own food but I don't really think I'm that type of person honestly. I do think though that I have become very slapdash about the consumer choices I make and I definitely could be making more of an effort so I think I will.

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    Quote cobweb View Post
    My long term dream has been to have some land with a modest sized home on it and grow my own produce, whilst at the same time creating a haven for animals living wild or possible abandoned 'domestic' animals. Unfortunately i have ended up far from that situation because life swept me in a different direction. I now have a very disabled husband and an Autistic son. I feel that my own morals dictate to me that i cannot contemplate leaving my husband whilst he relies on me so much. Yet i cannot say i am 'happy' with my lot.........

    I won't give up on my dreams, though, it sounds a bit cold i know, but i am likely to become a relatively young widow and i hope to be well enough myself to pursue my 'dream life' single handed .

    I also think that you make a good point, Ruby Rose, when i first went vegan i was determined to make my voice heard. I think somewhere along the way i gave up trying, swamped as i felt by people's ignorance and lack of interest . I definitely made myself ill by worrying so much about things that were out of my jurisdiction and i really can't afford to risk my well being like that again with 2 people solely relying on me.
    You have a lot on your plate, cobweb and you have my admiration, both for dealing maturely and lovingly with your current situation and with keeping your dreams!

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    Quote BlackCats View Post
    (I laughed at David's comment because I thought the way he phrased it sounded very clinical.)
    I must to preview my posts more; I must preview my posts more; I must...

    Quote BlackCats View Post
    When I first turned vegan I also decided to switch to a green supplier, buy only organic local fruit and veg and I wanted to start an animal retreat and eventually grow my own food but I don't really think I'm that type of person honestly.
    I know what you mean; I've been really lucky on a number of counts and I also am not a 'grower' type of person, though I love (occasional) hard physical work. Fortunately for me, Julie loves her garden and loves what she's learning from it and she would not hurt a single creature in it. Even the pests get sympathy from her. As she rightly points out, they're all part of nature. I think I might be a tad more impatient with them than her.

    BlackCats: go halfway. Support your local growers AND start an animal retreat. Forget about growing. Or start growing and forget about an animal retreat, I dunno. Do what you can - that's the answer, innit? If you were over here, I'd join up with you and start one if I could. The Irish often (far from always) treat their creatures with errrmm, less than 100% compassion.

    My dream is to plant trees. Native trees. Thousands of 'em. And (the real purpose) to encourage wildlife to live in amongst them. To protect foxes and badgers, deer and pine martens. One of the very few motivations for getting into debt would be to buy land for planting trees or to buy existing forestry.

    It's on the list.

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    That, sir, is a fab dream. I also love Cobby's dream. I think we should have a Pipe Dream thread - just to be able to keep going back to, to remind us of where we're headed when we lose the way a bit.

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    Quote Ruby Rose View Post
    That, sir, is a fab dream. I also love Cobby's dream. I think we should have a Pipe Dream thread - just to be able to keep going back to, to remind us of where we're headed when we lose the way a bit.
    Thanks. I hope they're not just pipe dreams!

    Good idea though, you never know what people have to offer, which may help things become more than dreams.

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    Quote DavidT View Post
    BlackCats: go halfway. Support your local growers AND start an animal retreat. Forget about growing. Or start growing and forget about an animal retreat, I dunno. Do what you can - that's the answer, innit? If you were over here, I'd join up with you and start one if I could. The Irish often (far from always) treat their creatures with errrmm, less than 100% compassion.

    My dream is to plant trees. Native trees. Thousands of 'em. And (the real purpose) to encourage wildlife to live in amongst them. To protect foxes and badgers, deer and pine martens. One of the very few motivations for getting into debt would be to buy land for planting trees or to buy existing forestry.
    My family in Ireland had a meat and dairy farm and I think the memories of that did push me towards vegetarianism.

    That is a great dream.

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    Quote DavidT View Post
    Thanks. I hope they're not just pipe dreams!
    You're right - so we should call it the Concrete Pipe Dream thread!

    It would also be good for when people on the board get low and depressed - to post a link back to their dream on the thread to help them reconnect with their sense of future and possibility.

  45. #95
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    I hear you Cobweb,

    It would be great to get a piece of land and build a house on it that is totally off the grid and self suffient. I would like to grow a lot of my own vegetables etc, filter collected rain water (much like a lot of Bermunda homes do).

    Obviously though; I know that I still need to close enough to interact with society and be able to buy the items and services I still require from it

  46. #96
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    Quote DavidT View Post
    For instance, try to get lentils at a shop where they're not carnivores - I do! And so on, wherever you are in the 'chain of events'..
    Can I just say that the shop BB mentions here that is run by carnivores is our local health food shop, which was run for 20 years by a family of vegetarians but when they retired recently they sold it to a local family. Our only other options for shopping in Letchworth are Holland and Barrett, Morrisons and Sainsburys. There is one Greengrocer which we try to use as much as possible but he has no organic produce. So we are stuck really. We can't get an organic veg box delivered as we live in a large block of flats and are usually both at work all day so can't accept a delivery and there is nowhere safe for them to leave it. Also our current financial situation with BBs job means that we need to start looking for cheaper options anyway.

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    Default Re: where does your money go?

    New thread about future plans is here:
    http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...509#post565509

    So this thread can get back on track!

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    Quote Zero View Post
    I hear you Cobweb,

    It would be great to get a piece of land and build a house on it that is totally off the grid and self suffient. I would like to grow a lot of my own vegetables etc, filter collected rain water (much like a lot of Bermunda homes do).

    Obviously though; I know that I still need to close enough to interact with society and be able to buy the items and services I still require from it
    Being 'green' in that way is damned expensive, though, isn't it? Unless of course you're happy to sleep when it's dark, work when it's light and walk everywhere, which is ok too. I wish I was allowed to do that.

    We're so hooked on fossil fuel, even to get off fossil fuel.

    But you need to pursue that dream. It's admirable.

    I read a fairly smug (says he, trying desperately not to be in other posts) article about an off-grid house in America. The solar pv alone would cost an arm and a leg (not vegan, eh?), plus they had to have a SUV to get around.

    Our solar hot water saves us loadsa money but we're dependent upon a fossil fuel economy to manufacture it! In fairness, the aluminium was smelted in Norway(?) using hydro and the system uses no chemicals such as anti-freeze, though many parts are kinds of plastic.

    We collect rainwater for use on the garden. Funny, there's never enough, even in Ireland...

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    Quote helen105281 View Post
    Can I just say that the shop BB mentions here that is run by carnivores is our local health food shop, which was run for 20 years by a family of vegetarians but when they retired recently they sold it to a local family. Our only other options for shopping in Letchworth are Holland and Barrett, Morrisons and Sainsburys. There is one Greengrocer which we try to use as much as possible but he has no organic produce. So we are stuck really. We can't get an organic veg box delivered as we live in a large block of flats and are usually both at work all day so can't accept a delivery and there is nowhere safe for them to leave it. Also our current financial situation with BBs job means that we need to start looking for cheaper options anyway.
    I feel for you, I really do. What a choice! At least you have a greengrocer, which is something. And this in the 'free market' economy which is touted as being good for the consumer, as if. As time goes by, there seems to be less and less choice.

    I was only talking the other day about cars, in a similar vein. You would think, wouldn't you, that after over a century of development, a 100mpg car would be available? People are not allowed to buy such a thing. Ho hum.

    Thought: is running a vehicle on fossil fuel vegan? My head hurts.

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    Quote helen105281 View Post
    There is one Greengrocer which we try to use as much as possible but he has no organic produce. So we are stuck really. We can't get an organic veg box delivered as we live in a large block of flats and are usually both at work all day so can't accept a delivery and there is nowhere safe for them to leave it.
    That's what makes it a pain about those box deliveries. The place I used couldn't give me a definite time so I had to wait in all day as we don't have a porch at the front of our house where it could be left safely. I never thought about buying organic fruit and veg from a greengrocers. I might ask in the ones near me. Do greengrocers always use local produce? So using them is "better" environmentally than a supermarket right?

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