where does your money go?

[helen105281]

I think our one uses local produce, he tends to tell us where everything comes from. He is really sweet, always cheers us up.

[DavidT]

Do greengrocers always use local produce?

Depends upon where you are. Do you have locally-grown bananas? Only joking.

No, they don't.

I saw onions in a small 'supermarket' near me that came from....New Zealand. To Ireland. Grrrr.... There are Irish onions.

Maybe they're going to New Zealand.

Our 'real' local greengrocer also has New Zealand onions but they also have local produce (and a bit of organic too, happily), yes, but not always. There are lots of spuds there from outside Ireland.

So using them is "better" environmentally than a supermarket right?

This is the question and what this thread was partially about. Supermarkets tend to ship long distances, even when the stuff is produced locally. George Monbiot has a lot to say about it; try reading some of his articles under the heading 'supermarket'.

[BlackCats]

Depends upon where you are. Do you have locally-grown bananas? Only joking.

I wasn't thinking. Duh.

[Zero]

Being 'green' in that way is damned expensive, though, isn't it? Unless of course you're happy to sleep when it's dark, work when it's light and walk everywhere, which is ok too. I wish I was allowed to do that.

We're so hooked on fossil fuel, even to get off fossil fuel.

But you need to pursue that dream. It's admirable.

I read a fairly smug (says he, trying desperately not to be in other posts) article about an off-grid house in America. The solar pv alone would cost an arm and a leg (not vegan, eh?), plus they had to have a SUV to get around.

Our solar hot water saves us loadsa money but we're dependent upon a fossil fuel economy to manufacture it! In fairness, the aluminium was smelted in Norway(?) using hydro and the system uses no chemicals such as anti-freeze, though many parts are kinds of plastic.

We collect rainwater for use on the garden. Funny, there's never enough, even in Ireland...

Oh absolutely, it is really expensive, but mainly because not enough money is going into the mass production alternative energy, once the technology becomes more mainstream the prices will fall.

Personally I think a mandate should be in place that requires all new build commercial properties to contribute to the grid by having solar panel roofing, not only would this help bring the cost of the technology down so more people could access it but it would reduce energy usage from fosil fuels.

I understand what you mean about the production metiods, but again if more research was put into it then a greener way might be found.

Have you looked at the power of parabolic mirrors? When positioned right these can heat whole water tanks in sunnier areas.

Search parabolic mirror heating on youtube (I would give a link but I can't access it from work).

Mirror based power station in Spain: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6616651.stm (it's certainly not nearly as unslightly as a fosil fuel power station).



+

Could prove great for desert areas, just need to get these oil companies off the case

[Buddha Belly]

Personally I think a mandate should be in place that requires all new build commercial properties to contribute to the grid by having solar panel roofing, not only would this help bring the cost of the technology down so more people could access it but it would reduce energy usage from fosil fuels.

Good idea.

[DavidT]

I wasn't thinking. Duh.

's my influence.

[BlackCats]

Zero - that is a good idea.

This is the question and what this thread was partially about. Supermarkets tend to ship long distances, even when the stuff is produced locally. George Monbiot has a lot to say about it; try reading some of his articles under the heading 'supermarket'.

I read a few of his articles, it's kind of annoying that he doesn't go vegan himself though.

[DavidT]

I read a few of his articles, it's kind of annoying that he doesn't go vegan himself though.

That's a good point. I'll ask him, eh? Be good if I could get a response. I'll post it here if I do.

Edit: aha!

In his magazine The Land, Simon Fairlie has updated the figures produced 30 years ago in Kenneth Mellanby’s book Can Britain Feed Itself? Fairlie found that a vegan diet grown by means of conventional agriculture would require only 3m hectares of arable land (around half the current total)(13). Even if we reduced our consumption of meat by half, a mixed farming system would need 4.4m hectares of arable fields and 6.4 million hectares of pasture. A vegan Britain could make a massive contribution to global food stocks.

But I cannot advocate a diet I am incapable of following. I tried it for about 18 months, lost two stone, went as white as bone and felt that I was losing my mind. I know a few healthy-looking vegans and I admire them immensely. But after almost every talk I give, I am pestered by swarms of vegans demanding that I adopt their lifestyle. I cannot help noticing that in most cases their skin has turned a fascinating pearl grey.

Hmmmm....

also:

It’s impossible to avoid the conclusion that the only sustainable and socially just option is for the inhabitants of the rich world to become, like most of the earth’s people, broadly vegan, eating meat only on special occasions like Christmas.

As a meat-eater, I’ve long found it convenient to categorise veganism as a response to animal suffering or a health fad. But, faced with these figures, it now seems plain that it’s the only ethical response to what is arguably the world’s most urgent social justice issue. We stuff ourselves, and the poor get stuffed.

[Zero]

He's discussed it previously (see here). It does frustrate me that he seems to see the logic but won't do it himself.

Send him a polite message perhaps? It couldn't hurt. Perhaps he would be willing to take the Vegan Society pledge if nothing else

[DavidT]

He's discussed it previously (see here). It does frustrate me that he seems to see the logic but won't do it himself.

Send him a polite message perhaps? It couldn't hurt. Perhaps he would be willing to take the Vegan Society pledge if nothing else

Thanks Zero. I'll pass it on to him (well, it ends up with a secretary but hopefully it'll get through to him).

[Buddha Belly]

It used to be that research was carried out for the sake of it, largely through universities; thus, knowledge was acquired for the advancement of humankind as whole and was paid for by societies generally. Research with profit as the motive was rarely pursued and would rarely get social funding.

???????That was in the 16th century and even then it was done by rich men with too much time on their hands as the workers was seeing to all that needed to be done. The industrial revolution was not a great socialist experiment without any profits or exploitation? All the machines and 'improvements' were not carried out in universities by societies behest. Research has been done for centuries for personal financial rewards. The largest improvements has come in the capitalist years and has been made as side effects of either military or persons trying to gain financial rewards. Even most rational forms of Socialism recognise the fact that incentives of some sort should be made for research and developments to occur. No one without any financial incentive has been in the field of research very long.The point I was making but was not mentioned was why should people be denied the luxuries of life? To expect society to revert to an earlier stage in societies evolution is what Pol Pot so successfully tried in Kampuchea.



You can influence your charity to change to a more ethical bank.
Reality sucks

This I agree is a bigger problem and you're right to put it in writing, BB. It is overwhelming for many people but my point is, break it down and do what you can. For instance, try to get lentils at a shop where they're not carnivores - I do! And so on, wherever you are in the 'chain of events'.

I do what I can when I can and do not need telling that I do not do enough. That is the only unchained shop in this town. The cost of travel to obtain all we need is something we can not afford.

Well, apart from the fact that Group 4's investments in Ecover put me off them as a company, Ecover were doing all the right things. They weren't using chemicals as we know them. They were using natural ingredients. So maybe you ought to pick another example, this one is not good.

And Ecover test on animals. What were the packaging made of. Did the boxes containing them get sealed with tape? Were the machines they made the product with made from anything that harmed the world or animails.

I know what you're getting at and the comment I made about lentils apply.

It applies if I had the time and money to go to many different towns to pick up the things I can buy at my local store.


It's obvious some people have never thought about it. It's obvious some people have thought about it but can't be bothered. It's obvious that some people have thought about it and do their best. It's obvious that some people have thought about it but are not allowed to do anything about it.

Please do not presume anything about anyone because you could be making assumptions. Not everything is obvious from reading threads and messages. There have been people who have tried to live how you do and are not able to do so anymore. Yours is a lifestyle that is only open to a lucky few and to belittle people who can not do so and how they lead their lives can be offensive and antagonistic.


And there, BB, you touch on the real problem.

[DavidT]

Wow.

Some nerves touched there, eh?

[DavidT]

Nonetheless, I'll take on board what you say, BB. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

[Buddha Belly]

A bit. It was the presumption that your way is the only correct way and everyone who disagrees is wrong. No not wrong, uneducated and in need of guidance.

Nearly every person on this forum has taken the decision to change their lives in such a way that has made their daily lives much harder than most peoples. To then tell people that it is not nearly enough and everything else they do is even worse takes the acheivement everyone has made and makes it insignificant.

[harpy]

Nearly every person on this forum has taken the decision to change their lives in such a way that has made their daily lives much harder than most peoples. To then tell people that it is not nearly enough and everything else they do is even worse takes the acheivement everyone has made and makes it insignificant.

I tend to agree with this - particularly for people who have recently gone vegan I feel it's unhelpful to give the impression that their efforts aren't worthwhile unless they also live in a yurt and generate all their own power with an exercise bike or whatever After all, a belief in veganism is the one thing we all have in common here.

I also think that other people may often have different but equally tenable viewpoints about what's ethical, environmentally sound and so on. For example I tend to buy mostly organic stuff myself where possible, but I have had a discussion with someone on here who has some persuasive arguments against buying organic. It's invalid to assume that because people make different choices they haven't thought about the issues as much as one has, they may just have come to different conclusions, or their circumstances or priorities may be different.

[Zero]

Indeed. I am vegan for the animals above all else and the boycott of all animal product as fas possible and practical is the most important thing to me.

Well said BB and Harpy

[cobweb]

I would literally like to do the whole thing of pretty much sleeping when it's dark, working outside all the day, etc (i would surely get a lot of kip here in the winter ).

I am definitely happiest when i'm outside all day, i feel like a poor battery farm hen when i'm stuck indoors . I like the idea very much, Zero, of being self sufficient. It astounds me that people move to Orkney, to the outer isles which have far less services than where i live, and then moan because the local shop runs out of bread/is very expensive. Why move to a small isolated island unless you want to be more self sufficient?.

I have it easy at the moment in that i have machines in the kitchen which do jobs for me, a car, etc, but it's not really want i want. I will enjoy it for now though. My goal is to live without a fridge eventually, i don't know why, it just seems important to me.

David T nice of you to rephrase your comment re the wife! .

You see you have made me refocus on my ultimate goal now which has cheered me a lot so thanks for the thread .

[BlackCats]

I tend to buy mostly organic stuff myself where possible, but I have had a discussion with someone on here who has some persuasive arguments against buying organic.

Harpy - what were the arguments against buying organic? Is it because organic farming wouldn't be feasible on a large scale?

I don't know that people would feel like anyone on here was saying that their way was the only right way of doing things. I'm not so easily influenced personally.:smile: Also there are so many grey areas in veganism that there is no obvious "right way" sometimes. I think that some people on here obviously have thought about these issues but I just have tended to go and buy whatever is easiest which has meant using one supermarket but it wouldn't really be any more hassle for me to distribute my money to local/ smaller businesses. I also tend to go to Holland and Barret when another independant health food shop is right across the street so I should be giving them some support too. Also I need to stop accepting plastic bags in shops!

[DavidT]

It used to be that research was carried out for the sake of it, largely through universities; thus, knowledge was acquired for the advancement of humankind as whole and was paid for by societies generally. Research with profit as the motive was rarely pursued and would rarely get social funding.

???????That was in the 16th century and even then it was done by rich men with too much time on their hands as the workers was seeing to all that needed to be done.The industrial revolution was not a great socialist experiment without any profits or exploitation? All the machines and 'improvements' were not carried out in universities by societies behest. Research has been done for centuries for personal financial rewards. The largest improvements has come in the capitalist years and has been made as side effects of either military or persons trying to gain financial rewards. Even most rational forms of Socialism recognise the fact that incentives of some sort should be made for research and developments to occur. No one without any financial incentive has been in the field of research very long.The point I was making but was not mentioned was why should people be denied the luxuries of life? To expect society to revert to an earlier stage in societies evolution is what Pol Pot so successfully tried in Kampuchea.

Much of what you say is true but it tends to miss the my point slightly, that of deliberate funding of research institutions by corporations which not only directs where research heads (ignoring 'pure' research and focussing on patentable outcomes) but also suppresses unwelcome findings. It's always been around in some form or another but there has been a massive increase in this manipulation in the last twenty to thirty years.

Famous examples are Monsanto and Syngenta, of course but there are hundreds, easily found in the many books written about negative corporate influence. Try John Perkins, for instance.

You can influence your charity to change to a more ethical bank.

Reality sucks

Don't take things personally BB - you offer what could be a hypothetical situation and I offer a single, valid response which may or not be applicable in individuals' circumstances.

Well, apart from the fact that Group 4's investments in Ecover put me off them as a company, Ecover were doing all the right things. They weren't using chemicals as we know them. They were using natural ingredients. So maybe you ought to pick another example, this one is not good.

And Ecover test on animals. What were the packaging made of. Did the boxes containing them get sealed with tape? Were the machines they made the product with made from anything that harmed the world or animails.

I'd forgotten they test on animals; thanks for reminding me. I should have said "many of the right things", which is true. As for the other stuff, yet more reason to boycott them, eh?

It's obvious some people have never thought about it. It's obvious some people have thought about it but can't be bothered. It's obvious that some people have thought about it and do their best. It's obvious that some people have thought about it but are not allowed to do anything about it.

Please do not presume anything about anyone because you could be making assumptions.

Hey! They're observations, not presumptions or assumptions. They're what people have said, some of them in this thread, some elsewhere. Read it again. The first sentence refers mainly to people generally. The third is what some people in this thread admit! The last applies to me - and no doubt others.

Not everything is obvious from reading threads and messages.

BB, you said it!

Yours is a lifestyle that is only open to a lucky few and to belittle people who can not do so and how they lead their lives can be offensive and antagonistic.

Now you're the one making assumptions and being antagonistic. I don't wish that to happen and would like to keep to practical matters, not tease with impressions received through an imperfect medium.

I don't set out to belittle people - the opposite in many cases. I always preview what I've written and think it's fair and an honest precis of what I believe. I'm not a professional writer though.

By all means question my ethics or practices - I need that, I haven't got as far as I have in my beliefs without them being criticised by me and others. But don't forget, if you assume something from my posts and reply hammering me with your assumption, I find it hard not to refute what your saying.

Like the Ecover stuff, I made a mistake by having a poor memory. Thank you for pointing it out and continue to point out my factual errors. But if you simply don't like the way I put things, ignore me.

[DavidT]

It was the presumption that your way is the only correct way and everyone who disagrees is wrong. No not wrong, uneducated and in need of guidance.

BB, someone once said, "if we all liked the same things, everybody would want to marry my wife!"

The is no way mine is the 'only correct way'. Don't take things so personally - what's wrong with making a valid suggestion? That it doesn't suit you is not really relevant, is it? It still remains a valid suggestion.

Besides, are there no people out there who would like education and guidance? Surely there are one or two? I'm one of them, so I should know...

I'll tell you something, BB: I have made an assumption. Gosh! The pan and the kettle, eh? It goes like this:

Everyone this board is vegan, is that right? Or most of them, I don't know, it doesn't matter for the sake of my assumption. I have made the assumption that everyone on this board is - yikes - of above-average intelligence. Am I wrong to make that assumption? Technically, yes, because I have no figures and what would they prove anyway.

But is it an invalid assumption? I personally don't think so because I will automatically credit a vegan with having more sense than a meat eater.

Why am I saying this? Because I believe everyone on this board is capable of making their own decisions more intelligently than the average Jane Soap. They're capable of looking at a thread and saying, "Well, I never thought of that" or "Lucky b*****d, being able to choose where he gets his organic produce" or "I could never do that" or any number of thoughts without getting bogged down in pointless semantics and bitter arguments.

So, if you don't like the way I phrase things, then I apologise, but you can ignore me. Please don't though! Like I say, you can give me a kick up the arse but I won't take it criticism just for the sake of it.

Nearly every person on this forum has taken the decision to change their lives in such a way that has made their daily lives much harder than most peoples.

This is so true.

To then tell people that it is not nearly enough and everything else they do is even worse takes the acheivement everyone has made and makes it insignificant.

No way. As I keep saying, being vegan is a statement of significant commitment and is a constant uphill battle. Where did I say what vegans are doing is 'not nearly enough'? Is it:

You're already making a huge statement with your veganism - but don't let it stop at food. Make positive choices with your money.

Positive stories welcome.

?

That's a suggestion, an idea to get you thinking, hardly worded to make anyone feel insignificant and clearly an invitation to recount success stories.

I was hoping for more constructive suggestions about taking veganism to the next level, such as expanding those ethical values to encompass further aspects of our lives, not just food. If you don't think it's relevant to do so, then again, ignore the thread.

[DavidT]

I feel it's unhelpful to give the impression that their efforts aren't worthwhile unless they also live in a yurt and generate all their own power with an exercise bike or whatever

Course it is. That's why I wouldn't imply that.

[harpy]

Harpy - what were the arguments against buying organic? Is it because organic farming wouldn't be feasible on a large scale?

There are a few different arguments - this is the thread I was thinking of I think

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...?t=3429&page=2

As I say I tend to buy organic stuff myself but I'm glad I can get it via a box scheme that buys from co-operatives and so on because I'm not so sure about some of the organic stuff in supermarkets. (May as well puff the box scheme again in case anyone in W or S London's interested: http://www.woodfieldorganics.com/ ) I know box schemes aren't viable for everyone though.

Yes, I think it's well worth exchanging thoughts on these issues, as long as we are careful not to discourage people.

[DavidT]

I also think that other people may often have different but equally tenable viewpoints about what's ethical, environmentally sound and so on.

That's partly the reason I started the thread: I'm always looking for ideas and viewpoints.

I cycle to and from work, around 10kms each way; mulling over ideas is a great way to shorten the journey.

[loveganism]

When I'm at work, it's fairly easy to buy green. Locally, not so good. The nearest supermarket is Budgens, which has a pretty pitiful fruit and veg section and doesn't have any vegan specialist food like yogurts etc. The next nearest supermarket is a Tesco (spit!). Not too far away is a Farmers Market that has awesome organic local food, but is ridiculously expensive (and we'd be using more fuel to get there).

I would love to shop from the farmer's market, but I just can't afford it. So I often end up shopping at Tescos these days I feel like a hypocrite because they sicken me over the China/Turtles situation.

So this year I'm going mad and trying to grow as much food as possible (weather/space/sanity permitting). Maybe the money I save can be used to buy the stuff I can't grow from a greener source

[loveganism]

Also, this website Ethiscore.org is pretty good for seeing which companies suck. You have to pay to unlock all of the reports but you can still navigate around what's free to see what kind of stuff Nestle and Coca Cola etc are up to.

[cobweb]

I'm a little confused with organic stuff - for example i read an interesting piece about how vegetables have their own defence systems. For instance if you grow Potatoes without any chemical assistance they will use their own defence mechanisms to repel pests and diseases, which may not be so healthy for the consumer (they can be slightly poisonous).
I was also quite shocked to discover that a lot of organic growers do spray their crops with certified substances which may also be harmful to wildlife . I had naiively believed that the plants were 'all natural'.

One of my biggest bugbears is plastic, i wish that there were more stations (in shops) where you could refill with all your bottled goods.

Zero i have long felt that solar panels should be obligatory, just like cleaner engines are these days. Unfortunately a lot of houses near us were built with ground source heat pumps and air source heating which was meant to be great - but it all went horribly wrong and the houses are pretty much uninhabitable now . My next door neighbour had to be rehoused after 2 years in her new build. She tells me never to mention the words 'eco friendly' again to her! .

On the plus side we have turbines here on the island (very contraversial though!) and tidal energy which is being expanded more or less as we speak. The veg oil is collected from local food outlets and re-used for fuel, too, and we have battery recycling bins in lots of shops .

[asleep ona sunbeam]

Also, this website Ethiscore.org is pretty good for seeing which companies suck. You have to pay to unlock all of the reports but you can still navigate around what's free to see what kind of stuff Nestle and Coca Cola etc are up to.

There's a free one that probably isn't as comprehensive, www.knowmore.org
it has nestle and coke on it (obviously it's got a lot more than that) but last time I checked it's still very much under construction when it comes to the profiles of companies.

What's the issue with Tesco and china/turtles?

[DavidT]

Also, this website Ethiscore.org is pretty good for seeing which companies suck. You have to pay to unlock all of the reports but you can still navigate around what's free to see what kind of stuff Nestle and Coca Cola etc are up to.

That's a very good site; it's run by Ethical Consumer magazine, which is an excellent, if frightening, source of useful information.

I'd have recommended both the magazine and the website myself earlier if I thought I wasn't going to get flamed for advising people to do something they can't afford.

[cobweb]

DavidT Tesco were selling/are selling live Turtles in their China stores as 'food'.

[cobweb]

http://www.nowpublic.com/tesco_sell_...urtles_at_home

[DavidT]

Unfortunately a lot of houses near us were built with ground source heat pumps and air source heating which was meant to be great - but it all went horribly wrong and the houses are pretty much uninhabitable now . My next door neighbour had to be rehoused after 2 years in her new build. She tells me never to mention the words 'eco friendly' again to her! .

Shame, innit? Such negative reactions could be avoided by good planning.

Both types of heating need to be competently installed by people who can guarantee the highest-quality workpersonship. They rely on mechanical stuff which can go wrong but needs to be extremely high quality.

The ground source pumps needs to be ultra-robust otherwise they can be desperately inconvenient to repair. What's more, they can be very dear to run, requiring heavy-duty compressors. I think air-source pumps are prone to frequent breakdown too.

These types of devices do no good whatsoever for the environmental movement because they're technical fixes which steer people away from cheaper options like insulation and making do with less. A heat pump would be totally unnecessary if the house was properly designed in the first place.

They're just more things that can go wrong...as if we haven't enough 'stuff' already.

[DavidT]

http://www.nowpublic.com/tesco_sell_...urtles_at_home

'scuse me.

Bleurrrgh.

I'm am now e-mailing Tesco in Ireland to express my disgust at this revolting practice. I'll post any reply I get.

[cobweb]

DavidT i know you have had a little bit of flak of here - i think sometimes in these times when a lot of us are fretting over money, maybe we just don't want more 'pressure'. However, you have reminded me of my dreams and also the fact that i must follow my heart and 'be the change i want to see', etc..........

I had cut down a lot on my recycling for various reasons (not least the fact that the depot is next to the local abbatoir ) and had given up trying to grow veg (it's not super easy here! ) - BUT yesterday i scrubbed out my large recycling container and am now filling it again. In doing that i had to empty it of all my old plant pots, so i scrubbed them out, too.

Today i have planted poppies and tomatoes and herbs, and this week will be planting edible flowers, cabbage and caulis.

So thanks, i'm enjoying it again! :smile:.

[cobweb]

Shame, innit? Such negative reactions could be avoided by good planning.

Both types of heating need to be competently installed by people who can guarantee the highest-quality workpersonship. They rely on mechanical stuff which can go wrong but needs to be extremely high quality.

The ground source pumps needs to be ultra-robust otherwise they can be desperately inconvenient to repair. What's more, they can be very dear to run, requiring heavy-duty compressors. I think air-source pumps are prone to frequent breakdown too.

These types of devices do no good whatsoever for the environmental movement because they're technical fixes which steer people away from cheaper options like insulation and making do with less. A heat pump would be totally unnecessary if the house was properly designed in the first place.

They're just more things that can go wrong...as if we haven't enough 'stuff' already.

I agree - and some of the workmen they have employed here have been awful (i think they've weeded out the worst now though and i have to balance that by saying some are blummin fantastic!).

Although our central heating is oil fired, our one storey house is super well insulated. We also bought the thickest underlay we could get get and a decent carpet. The house was also built with the front room facing the sun, so all in all it is very efficient. The last place we lived in had underfloor heating and cost us 4 times as much to heat! .

[DavidT]

DavidT i know you have had a little bit of flak of here - i think sometimes in these times when a lot of us are fretting over money, maybe we just don't want more 'pressure'. However, you have reminded me of my dreams and also the fact that i must follow my heart and 'be the change i want to see', etc..........

I had cut down a lot on my recycling for various reasons (not least the fact that the depot is next to the local abbatoir ) and had given up trying to grow veg (it's not super easy here! ) - BUT yesterday i scrubbed out my large recycling container and am now filling it again. In doing that i had to empty it of all my old plant pots, so i scrubbed them out, too.

Today i have planted poppies and tomatoes and herbs, and this week will be planting edible flowers, cabbage and caulis.

So thanks, i'm enjoying it again! :smile:.

Woo hoo!

[DavidT]

Although our central heating is oil fired, our one storey house is super well insulated. We also bought the thickest underlay we could get get and a decent carpet. The house was also built with the front room facing the sun, so all in all it is very efficient.

There are billions upon trillions going into banks just to get people borrowing again.

If that money was put into insulating and retrofitting houses, many people would have no need to borrow!

What an upside down world.

[cobweb]

^ you can say that again.

[loveganism]

There's a free one that probably isn't as comprehensive, www.knowmore.org
it has nestle and coke on it (obviously it's got a lot more than that) but last time I checked it's still very much under construction when it comes to the profiles of companies.

What's the issue with Tesco and china/turtles?

Thanks for the URL As cobweb mentioned, Tesco are selling live turtles to people to take home and eat. The guy from Viva (Justin) at the Brighton Vegan Fayre said people sometimes literally eat them alive - WTF!!!!! They shouldn't be selling turtles at all. Mofos.

[asleep ona sunbeam]

Thanks for the URL As cobweb mentioned, Tesco are selling live turtles to people to take home and eat. The guy from Viva (Justin) at the Brighton Vegan Fayre said people sometimes literally eat them alive - WTF!!!!! They shouldn't be selling turtles at all. Mofos.

I'm not sure I see that as any worse, okay I'm sure it breaks international law, but in my opinion it should be illegal to raise livestock, kill them for meat and sell them to people for convenience. If it becomes linked to survival that's where there's a grey area. But neither case is about survival. So why is it worse than selling any other animals? because it's sold alive? and can be eaten alive?

[bradders]

In the UK you can buy live fish to kill and cook and live lobsters and crabs. Not sure how this is different. Given the failings of even the 'best' slaughterhouses I don't really see it as being all that different to them selling dead animals. It's all wrong but it's not something that makes tesco any worse than it is already.

[DavidT]

I suppose it's a case of, once the animal is killed, at least then there's no further cruelty being inflicted upon a conscious creature. We're talking here of keeping them alive in a totally unnatural environment and then running the risk of them being inhumanely killed, if there is such a thing as opposed to 'humanely' killed.

No, it's no different, Bradders, to the live lobsters and crabs, you're right there; Tesco make a good target though!

[asleep ona sunbeam]

No, it's no different, Bradders, to the live lobsters and crabs, you're right there; Tesco make a good target though!

Not surprising, how much of the grocery market to they own at the moment, last time I checked it was 33.3*%

[bradders]

considering the way sealife are routinely transported and held alive before slaughter there's little difference on that score really tbh. How they get killed is an issue but given that most fish suffocate en route I'd say it's comparable with incompetent/ unconcerned people killing the animal.
One of the worst I've encountered is a Korean practice of eating the live tentacles of live (squid I think it is) that my old flatmate told me about.

[DavidT]

The way we're trawling the seas now we might not have long to wait for this slaughter to cease!

[cobweb]

I agree and this is why i still shop with Tesco - it outrages me what happens to those Turtles, equally it outrages me the way animals are killed and their bodies are sold in most other food shops .

The fact that people might buy a live animal and take it home and kill it sickens me but it happens here, too, i know people who choose Turkeys and kill them at Christmas, for instance.

When i was a kid my friend's parents always had orphan Lambs, my friend and i would play with them and feed them and they were given names. Then once a year they would disappear and a new one or two would arrive..........

[bradders]

not so much we as they but sadly you could be right. While we're on the point the melting of the Arctic sea ice could result in the convectors that aerate the ocean shutting down suffocating much of the sealife.

[DavidT]

not so much we as they but sadly you could be right. While we're on the point the melting of the Arctic sea ice could result in the convectors that aerate the ocean shutting down suffocating much of the sealife.

The collective 'we' of course - this inhumane species we're part of!

I heard Greenland is becoming more and more fertile in recent years due to climate change. Some people hail this as a Good Thing.

[loveganism]

Re: The Tesco/Turtles situation.

The idea of people being allowed to take any live creature home to kill it is disturbing. But the issue is, Tesco wouldn't pull this kind of stunt over here, so why should they be allowed to do it anywhere? And if there isn't a big enough outcry, maybe they'll start adding more poor creatures to their range.

What makes this especially disturbing is some people have been eating the turtles alive. Who knows how long it takes the turtles to die and what they have to endure?

[Buddha Belly]

There is an Animal Aid promotional card that we give out on our stalls that raise this issue and give to shocked omnis who find the fact Tesco do this hypocritically sick. I will dig one out of the garage tomorrow and scan it on tomorrow for everyone to fill in and send off. If they want too.

[asleep ona sunbeam]

I already avoid Tesco but I'll probably send one off anyway.