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Thread: Cultured (in vitro) meat

  1. #1
    Eat Y'self Fitter's Avatar
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    Default Cultured (in vitro) meat

    anyone get a load of this http://www.peta.org/feat_in_vitro_contest.asp

    I'm appalled. Theres more too this I'll provide more links if you haven't heard.

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    Fervent vegan DiaShel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Why are you appalled? If they could make meat without using animals this would be fantastic! They'll need to kill some for the research but compared to the billions that could potentially be saved it's worth it. I don't know if this will work and if it does if people will trust the "lab meat" but it's worth a shot.
    "To reduce suffering means to reduce the amount of ignorance, the basic affliction with us." -Thich Nhat Hanh

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    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro


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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    oh thanks for the old thread. I'm just appalled cos it further reinforces the idea that meat is necessary. I just think the money could be better spent

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    Fervent vegan DiaShel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Quote Eat Y'self Fitter View Post
    oh thanks for the old thread. I'm just appalled cos it further reinforces the idea that meat is necessary. I just think the money could be better spent
    Well since we can forget the idea that the world will stop eating meat I think it's the next best thing.
    "To reduce suffering means to reduce the amount of ignorance, the basic affliction with us." -Thich Nhat Hanh

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    terem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    That is quite nasty, and very unnatural.

    We are becoming too intelligent for our own good.

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    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Quote DiaShel View Post
    Well since we can forget the idea that the world will stop eating meat I think it's the next best thing.
    I do not agree. That is basically PETA's excuse for everything. "Well, since we aren't going to change the world, let's do what sounds hott." Now that's what I call a self-defeating attitude.
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

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    Fervent vegan DiaShel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    I agree that it's nasty and unnatural, but so it meat in general. If this eliminates animal being killed for meat, I don't understand how this is a bad thing.
    "To reduce suffering means to reduce the amount of ignorance, the basic affliction with us." -Thich Nhat Hanh

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    terem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    It's good that it eliminates mass killings of animals, but it perpetuates the exploitation of them.
    Stem cells from what I understand come from baby animals. The animal would still be needed to produce the meat.
    I don't think PETA should be supporting the continued destruction of life.

  10. #10
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Although initially animal flesh is needed to get the ball rolling, I think the concept is that eventually it will be entirely self replicating and no further animals are needed or harmed. The long term result is gazillions of animals are kept from death. [Not to say I'm an expert on the matter.]

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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    I've been thinking about this a lot since I posted this. Its a toss up for me. Although its not 100% ideal, it would save a lot of animals and natural resources providing that research and the actually process doesn't gobble them up. Health-wise, it still sets the wrong example. Its real meat, without the animals, but then again its easy to make things out of plants that taste and look exactly like meat, sans all the fat and cholesterol.

    The whole idea is just weird to me still.

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    Milk Donor Mommal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    The decision to go forward with this was very controversial within PETA. There was basically a mutiny over it. Lots of high drama LOL.

    Has anyone seen the Colbert Report segment on this? I'd post a link to it...but it might violate the TOS around here, I'm not sure so I'll play it safe. Anyway if anyone wants to watch it you can Google it. It's not a positive piece (it's disgusting and anger-inspiring, contains footage of the bodies of murdered animals, and makes fun of the whole animal rights movement ) but it does explain how the cultured meat is made and Newkirk is on there explaining PETA's stance-- that the aim of the organization is to reduce the suffering of animals and tissue-culture meat would achieve this goal. Which, in spite of not loving this whole concept, I would probably have to agree with.
    "The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it." -- Flannery O'Connor

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Quote DiaShel View Post
    Well since we can forget the idea that the world will stop eating meat I think it's the next best thing.
    Unlike what we see in some Asian countries, the Western world doesn't have a strong tradition of gourmet meat free food. I've been eating meat-free food with non-veggies many times who have said that when veg*n food is this good, they could easily skip meat.

    IMO the solution isn't to try to emulate something which Peta's leader describes as gross, but to let people know that you can get all the proteins you need without meat - without any sacrifice in terms of taste or capability of making people feel full/satisifed.

    Watch that Stephen Colbert Segment on the PETA Fake Meat Challenge and try to imagine the environmental effect it would have on the earth if fake meat production should replace factory farming. Don't forget that a typical European meat eater "will devour 760 chickens, 20 pigs, 29 sheep, five cows and half a trawler-net of fish in a lifetime".

    With 731 million Europeans, that's 578 billion chickens, 15 billion pigs, 21 billion sheep, almost 4 billion cows, and 380 million trawler-nets of fish. Europeans only represent only circa 10-12 percent of the world population.


    Why all this and environmental damage when one can eat delicious, tasty vegan food which doesn't need all this extra processing? The plants that are most capable of adding extra taste to food are only needed in very small amounts, are inexpensive, and can be produced using environmental friendly methods.

    This Peta stunt on fake meats strengthens the myth that I'd hope Peta rather would spend energy on trying to kill, namely that meat or meat substitutes are needed in order to make healthy, satisfying and tasty food.

    It seems that Peta still is governed by one person, Ingrid Newkirk - who thinks meat is gross, but who also apparently have said "I loved meat, liver above all,'' she told me. If liver were somehow morally permissible, I asked her, would she eat it again? "My God, I would eat it tomorrow. Now.".

    Why eat something you find gross, and why use a million dollars out of Peta's budget to produce a fake version of something gross?

    I have no problems with seeing that people who are used to eat meat will miss meat, or want to eat fake meat, but I won't support a pro vegan organization who somehow gives the impression that improving the fake-ability of mock meats is so important that they'll spend 1 million dollars on it - with all the press such a stunt generates.

    For the same amount they probably could have given away free cookbooks with gourmet vegan recipes to every nutritionist, school teacher and chef in US, with a detailed list over all the nutrients found in each meal.


    "My God, I'd eat something gross tomorrow. Now." Interesting combination of ways to look at meat.
    Last edited by Korn; Apr 16th, 2009 at 10:38 AM.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Another thing is of course with all the links between meat and cancer, heart disease etc. - how would they know if the in vitro meat wouldn't have the same side effects?
    Last edited by Korn; Nov 10th, 2009 at 09:08 AM.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  15. #15
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Quote Korn View Post
    IMO the solution isn't to try to emulate something which Peta's leader describes as gross...
    The concept of meat is gross because of where it comes from and what was needed to procure it: animal death. But if you remove that from the picture, which in vitro meat does, to some people it is no longer "gross".
    IMO the solution isn't to try to emulate something which Peta's leader describes as gross,
    She thinks the concept of meat is gross because of where it comes from, not the actual taste to the tongue (it would seem).
    Why all this and environmental damage when one can eat delicious, tasty vegan food which doesn't need all this extra processing?
    That's part of the beauty of in vitro meat I think you might be missing. The environmental damage plummets to a little tiny fraction of what it normally is:

    -the 9 to 20 gallons [34 to 76 L] of fresh water an average cow drinks per day? Gone!

    - the much larger quantity of water needed for "feedlots, dairy operations, and other on-farm needs, such as cooling of facilities for the animals and products, dairy sanitation and wash down of facilities, animal waste-disposal systems, and incidental water losses"? Gone!

    - the 125 lbs [56 kilograms] of waste (manure/urine) produced per cow per day? Gone!

    - the 18% of total world produced CO2 green house gasses produced from livestock belches, farts, and fumes rising from their manure plus their transportation costs? [WHO data] Gone!

    All you need is the transportation costs of the growth medium to the laboratory, the growth medium itself, and I'd think only a tiny bit more water than the actual water content the in vitro meat has in it inherently (its water content). There's no cleaning of stalls, waste removal, heavy/ expensive transportation of cattle to slaughter houses, greenhouse gasses....
    ---

    Why is it wrong to eat meat? Five reasons:

    A) You have to kill sentient beings against their will.
    B) Livestock production produces a huge amount of green house gasses.
    C) Livestock production consumes a huge amount of fresh water.
    D) Livestock production is an inefficient use of plant protein because we have to feed cattle roughly 20 times the amount of plant protein (often soybeans) to produce one unit of human edible protein.
    E) Meat is not very healthy because it contains cholesterol, etc.

    In vitro, AKA "tissue culture meat" eliminates the first 4 of those 5 reasons and through genetic engineering reason number five could be changed in the future; we could have "low cholesterol/healthy for you tissue culture meat". [Granted I don't know what the growth medium is for tissue culture meat so I don't know exactly what the protein conversion equation is (reason "D" above), but I suspect the growth medium would be largely starches/sugars.]

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    terem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    I picked up a copy of the Mar/Apr edition of VegNews tonight and guess what was in it!

    From the article The Road to Vegetopia: (Re)Imagining the Future of Food by Mat Thomas

    "Lab-grown meat- Take a few cells from a living animal, nurture them in a vat of chemicals, and voila: edible meat without the suffering and death! That's the basic idea behind lab-grown meat, which researchers hope will arrive at a supermarket near you by 2020. If commercially successful, lab-grown meat could spell the end of factory farming, and the environmental damage and animal suffering it causes. The most recent developmental breakthrough, says biologist Jason Matheny, is "Dr. Klaas Hellingwerf's success in using recombinant bacteria to produce growth factors, which is much less expensive than other mediums being used, and will help make it possible to manufacture meat on a mass scale using industrial bioreactors."

  17. #17
    Prawnil
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    Thumbs down Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    What I can't quite understand is, why meat? If you're going to engage in some incredibly expensive research to revolutionise human diet, why not a kind of perfect Matrix nutri-slop, engineered from cheap-as-hell plants to actually taste fantastic. It's not as if that would be any less likely to be a commercial success.
    What self-respecting omniverous consumer would pay necessarily obscene money for such a lab-sourced novelty, when they could whack the neck out of a cow and have it the cheap old fashioned way?

    All you need is the transportation costs of the growth medium to the laboratory, the growth medium itself, and I'd think only a tiny bit more water than the actual water content the in vitro meat has in it inherently (its water content). There's no cleaning of stalls, waste removal, heavy/ expensive transportation of cattle to slaughter houses, greenhouse gasses....
    The range and quantities of materials for growth factor production then maintainance of the tissue, by very specialist staff in huge, new, sterile facilities on an industrial scale would be immense. The reagents and equipment involved in the bacterial engineering for the factors alone almost certainly include loads of synthetic and sometimes toxic substances with their own issues of production and costs, and no doubt masses and masses of waste byproducts. That's if the factors weren't of animal origin ( I'm not sure how it would be cheaper to source them from bacteria via genetic engineering, when the blood of the species to which the tissue belongs is abundantly available.) - even the existing recombinant ones are seriously expensive.

    It is no more than slow-motion/high-efficiency standard omnivorism, & does nothing for the attitude of animals as production units. The tissues would definitely need to be restarted from the source animals at a high rate if the process was large scale.
    I reckon it'll happen, since it's been set as a challenge, but that it will be an extremely expensive, super short lived novelty. It would be such a complex and expensive process even on a tiny scale, and combined with the vital likelihood that no bugger'd buy it, I don't think it could possibly work commercially.

  18. #18
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Most thing are outrageously expensive when new. One of the first cellular (mobile) telephones, the DynaTAC 8000X, weighed two pounds (907 g) and sold for $3995 US Dollars (USD). Now cell phones are free with a paid subscription to service.

    What I can't quite understand is, why meat?
    We know for a fact that 95% of the world market eats it and likes it, even with its current questionable ethics in production and health consequences in tow already. "Perfect Matrix Nutri-slop" may or may not be as instantly accepted, where as we know right now people will eat the substance called "meat".

  19. #19
    Prawnil
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    we know right now people will eat the substance called "meat".
    But not that most people would eat laboratory produced flesh. People seem suspicious enough of the concept of even cloned animals as food sources.

    The hurdle is that 95% of the world market likes it and eats it! Unlike the mobile telephone, meat already exists abundantly in a form that the majority accept, and in vitro tissues sold for eating serve no additional purpose.
    Would it not be something vaguely like re-releasing a mobile at the original release price of that DynaTAC 8000X, with perhaps an adjustment in the impact of the production of a material it was made of that has no impact on the user.

    People whose diet choices are based on not harming know well that they can live brilliantly on plants. People whose diet choices aren't, if they're educated well enough, don't mind the harm, do they? Who's the niche filled by hellishly expensive experimental lab beef? -Doomed to fail!

  20. #20
    Mahk
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    Quote Prawnil View Post
    But not that most people would eat laboratory produced flesh. People seem suspicious enough of the concept of even cloned animals as food sources.
    I'm not so sure there would be as much objection as you. Think of, for example, irradiated food spices found in prepared foods like soups, genetically modified food, food produced by slave labor in other countries, food that's bad for the environment, food that's coated with pesticides, food that's coated with waxes or shellac, food that's bad for ones health, and cloned organisms food. The most important thing for 95% of society is that it is tasty. I would assume lab meat would taste identical to dead animal carcass meat so that number one hurdle of "tasting good" has already been cleared. [BTW, If you've ever eaten a Thompson seedless grape (the number one best seller of grapes) or a seedless navel orange (or orange juice made from them) you too have eaten a cloned organism.]

    Would it not be something vaguely like re-releasing a mobile at the original release price of that DynaTAC 8000X, with perhaps an adjustment in the impact of the production of a material it was made of that has no impact on the user.
    No direct impact, yes, arguably so. But think how hip "green products" are right now. People will pay thousands extra to get the "hybrid version" of a new car despite the fact that the increase in the price of the car exceeds the savings in gasoline (petrol? ) unless one drives the car beyond the expected lifetime of the first owner! They however feel good that they are "saving the planet" and it rids them of "green guilt". This is really, really big over here right now; I have no idea what it's like on your side of the pond, however. Almost every other TV ad I see is based on "green guilt" ,"green marketing", and "Look everybody how we [Shell Oil, for example] are helping to save the planet!"

    Imagine this year 2016 Burger King ad:

    "Announcing the new enviro-friendly Earth Whopper brought to you by Burger King. 100% all beef patty with 20% less fat and cholesterol than a regular Whopper, exactly the same great taste, with 90% less green house gas emissions so you'll help stop global warming, no rain forest loss, one tenth the amount of fresh water waste, and no cows were killed to make it!"

    [That last part gets a huge segment of people who've always thought in the back of their minds that veg*nism made sense on paper but they just couldn't quite do it because they just couldn't give up meat.]
    ---

    There's also the possibility that our governments will realize that with the production of meat expected to double by the year 2050, and considering livestock manufacture 18% of all green house gasses currently (so that would be 36% by 2050!), that they will force the world to convert to lab meat or veganism to save the planet. Did you know there are already rumors that our governments have secret teams in place working on plans of how to convert the entire population to veganism, at a moments notice, if need be?

    We (vegans) aren't the target audience for lab meat marketers.

  21. #21
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    force the world to convert to lab meat or veganism
    ...this makes me (again) think that with all the focus on the environmental damage factory farming causes, starting to focus on making people eat in vitro meat with "exactly the same great taste" more than anything else represents NOT using an opportunity to massively focus on all the benefits vegan food has over a diet that includes meat and dairy.

    There's no report - AFAIK - that shows the amount of staff, electricity (<- read: water consumption) etc. that's involved in producing in vitro meat for billions of humans (which of course should include the environmental effect of producing and maintaining all the new equipment that's needed to produce in vitro meat). Check that video link above again...

    There's no report proving the health benefits of eating in vitro meat compared with real meat - because there of course are no studies yet comparing the side effect of eating meat with the side effects of eating in vitro meat.

    In the midst of this, it doesn't even seem that Peta is using the chance to tell potential in vitro meat eaters that fake meat products already exist; and that some of these products already haven fooled many meat eaters to believe that they are eating eg. a "real sausage".

    Instead of stressing all the benefits of eating a diet based on (unprocessed) plants, the in vitro stunt instead represents a new environmental unfriendly food product, and if this new product - in vitro meat - only is copying the "qualities" of meat, it will have no or practically no fiber, anti-oxidants, low or nor levels of vitamins C (after cooking), no photochemicals/flavinoids and so on. Millions will be spent on producing a product that vegan and non-vegan health professionals througout the world are trying to convince people to eat less of.


    But think how hip "green products" are right now.
    Sure - and the "green" alternative to meat already exists. It's healthier, it's at least as tasty, and it's way more environmental friendly. It's called vegan food.

    Compare Peta's new stunt with what The Telegraph reported a couple of years ago:
    Go vegan to help climate, says Government

    One of the main differences between these two approaches are of course that one of them lets people initiate a change to a more environment and animal friendly lifestyle today.

    Another thing is that as long as people are so hooked on cheese, creamy and dairy products in general as most people are, fake meat won't mean closing down factory farms anyway.
    Last edited by Korn; Apr 18th, 2009 at 06:50 AM.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  22. #22
    leedsveg
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    Quote Prawnil View Post
    But not that most people would eat laboratory produced flesh.
    Surely we can only know for certain if this is true or not when the meat is actually on sale? My feeling is that there may well be an initial reaction against this flesh, but comparing it to traditionally produced meat, if it's shown to be:


    • As tasty
    • 'Just as healthy' [unhealthy]
    • Cheaper
    • Better for the environment
    • Reducing the number of animals killed
    • Reducing animal suffering

    then people will buy it and eat it. I'm not saying this flesh would be perfect in every way, but then again I can't say that about currently produced 'fake meats' either.


  23. #23
    Mahk
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    Quote Korn View Post
    .There's no report - AFAIK - that shows the amount of staff, electricity (<- read: water consumption) etc. that's involved in producing in vitro meat.
    Agreed, but I would be absolutely shocked to hear that it has anywhere near the environmental impact of livestock production since the 125 pounds (56 kilograms) of daily waste per cattle is eliminated [currently producing 18% of all greenhouse gases, 36% by 2050]. Only time will tell.

    [currently there are 1.3 billion cattle X 56 kilograms of waste per day X 365 days in a year = 26,572,000,000,000 or 26 trillion kilograms of waste eliminated per year if everyone converted]

    the in vitro stunt instead represents a new environmental unfriendly food product
    Evidence, please. I thought you just said this was an unknown.

    In the midst of this, it doesn't even seem that Peta is using the chance to tell potential in vitro meat eaters that fake meat products already exist;
    Actually they do this heavily 24/7, every day, and have ever since their incarnation. One of their most commonly used tools to promote veg*nism they will send you or you can download; their free "Vegetarian starter kit", which is "vegetarian" in name only, is in truth actually more of a "vegan starter kit" seeing as none of the recipes include dairy or eggs and instead uses substitutes. They have a thorough list of substitutions which replace all meat, egg, and dairy on page 15:

    Then & Now:
    Meat Try Boca’s veggie burgers,
    faux chicken patties, and
    “beef” crumbles;
    Morningstar Farms’ faux
    chicken and steak strips;
    Gardenburger’s breakfast
    “sausage” and “riblets”;
    Lightlife’s “smart dogs”
    and “bacon”; and Yves’ and
    Turtle Island Foods’ faux ham
    and turkey deli slices—the
    possibilities are endless!
    Milk Try the dozens of options, like Silk,
    WholeSoy, Rice Dream, and Almond Breeze brands;
    use them in any way that you’d use cow’s milk. Silk also makes coffee “creamer”!
    Butter Most margarines are vegan;
    also try vegetable and olive oils.
    Ice Cream Try Soy Delicious, Tofutti,
    Rice Dream, Soy Dream, or fruit sorbets.
    Cheese Use soy cheese for pizza, sandwiches, toppings, and sauces.
    Try Tofutti, Follow Your Heart, or VeganRella brands.
    Cream Cheese Try Tofutti’s Better Than Cream Cheese.
    Sour Cream How about Tofutti’s Sour Supreme?
    Eggs For baking, use Ener-G Egg Replacer, bananas, or applesauce.
    For breakfast, scramble up some tofu
    with veggies, turmeric,
    nutritional yeast, and soy sauce.
    Snacks Check the ingredient lists of snacks like chips and cookies—
    you’ll be surprised at how many are already vegan.
    Mayonnaise Try Vegenaise—your taste buds won’t know the difference.


    [Note all these brands listed are commonly available in US markets]

    Another thing is that as long as people are so hooked on cheese, creamy and dairy products in general as most people are, fake meat won't mean closing down factory farms anyway.
    Banning fois gras won't help to shut down factory farming for exactly the same reason. So does that mean any efforts to ban fois gras should be abandoned?

  24. #24
    Milk Donor Mommal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    I'd tend to agree with Mahk's line of thinking, although others have raised interesting questions that we probably don't have answers to yet. I mean, we can speculate about the environmental difference but without all the details it's anyone's guess-- although it's hard to imagine a scenario in which the lab-meat would be worse. And as for how many people would actually buy and eat the stuff...who knows. I would think it mostly depends on the price, although since some people will shell out for "free-range" then I would assume those same people might have an interest. Also there's the novelty factor and also perhaps the snob factor if it's mad expensive when it first appears on the market.

    I also don't think that it's an "either/or" kind of proposition; some seem to think it would be impossible to let people know they can get along just fine (and actually better) without meat if this kind of lab-grown meat is available. Why? It would take away some of the arguments, sure, but others would remain. IMO this line of thinking is akin to objecting to laws requiring more humane slaughterhouse conditions on the basis that it might weaken the arguments against eating meat. It's a case of losing the bigger picture and poor prioritizing. You can't change the whole world all at once so sometimes you have to settle for baby steps or some small type of improvement. Or at least that's what I think.
    "The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it." -- Flannery O'Connor

  25. #25
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Quote Korn View Post
    In the midst of this, it doesn't even seem that Peta is using the chance to tell potential in vitro meat eaters that fake meat products already exist; and that some of these products already haven fooled many meat eaters to believe that they are eating eg. a "real sausage".
    Korn

    I went veggie nearly 20 years ago and I've been totally trying to avoid all animal products for the last 13 years (some people would call this 'being a vegan'). I've nothing against the taste/smell/texture of 'real meat' but somewhere along the line, animal use/animal cruelty is involved and so I realised that I should avoid it ('real meat', that is). What I'm trying to say is that on New Years Eve 1995 when I 'went vegan', I did not overnight gain an instant aversion to the taste/smell/texture of 'real meat'. Other people did gain an instant aversion at the time of their 'conversion' (I've gathered this from reading their postings on other threads) and good luck to them.

    Having said all this, I have to be honest and say that I'd be amazed if I preferred fake meat products to 'real meat' products in a taste/smell/texture test. (I know that this test is hypothetical but you get my drift.)

    Some years ago, when I was eating fake turkey slices, I offered a slice to Mum saying "They taste just like real turkey." She took a bite and said "You've obviously forgotten what real turkey tastes like!"


  26. #26
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    I've had a thought which I'm sure is not original. Instead of growing animal cells in an enormous vat to produce 'meat', why not use human cells? I am already a blood donor, although I presume my blood goes to humans who need it inside their bodies, rather than making black puddings*. I am willing to donate cells, to get the 'culture' going, as long as it's not too painful, or causes a limb to drop off. The 'meat' produced would be ok for vegans because it would have had nothing to do with animal cruelty or using animals and would be a 'compassionate donation' on my part.. Also the 'meat' would be ok for Muslims and,Hindus and Christians to eat. Possibly ok for Jews even on a strict kosher diet although I'll need to check Leviticus on this (and I may smell a bit 'porky' when cooked).

    What do you say folks?

    leedsveg

    *black pudding= a kind of sausage, traditionally made in Lancashire using congealed animal blood
    Last edited by leedsveg; Apr 18th, 2009 at 09:12 PM. Reason: spelling mistake

  27. #27
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    ^I don't think that would sell very well. [no offense to you or your taste] Ever see the movie Soylent Green? Spoiler alert!
    [YOUTUBE]8Sp-VFBbjpE[/YOUTUBE]

    Sometimes the government knows what's best for us even if we don't find it very palatable.

    Almost all cultures universally agree cannibalism is wrong but in regards to donated parts or ones that have died of natural causes I can't come up with any rational explanation as to "why" it is wrong any more than dog meat or cow meat.

    MMM, tastes like chicken!


    P.S. Muslims would be a no go, BTW. I know this because in my research on L-cysteine, found in Dunkin Donuts products including bagels and many other US baked goods, I discovered they consider it haram ('Unlawful' / '"Prohibited"/ 'Unacceptable' or 'Forbidden') when it is prepared from willingly donated hair sweepings from Indian and Chinese barber shops/ hair salons, as it was up until recently. They now use bird feathers, instead, so Muslims can eat their baked goods now.

  28. #28
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Quote Mahk View Post
    ^I don't think that would sell very well. [no offense to you or your taste] Ever see the movie Soylent Green?
    Sometimes the government knows what's best for us even if we don't find it very palatable.

    Almost all cultures universally agree cannibalism is wrong but in regards to donated parts or ones that have died of natural causes I can't come up with any rational explanation as to "why" it is wrong any more than dog meat or cow meat.

    MMM, tastes like chicken!


    P.S. Muslims would be a no go, BTW. I know this because in my research on L-cysteine, found in Dunkin Donuts products including bagels and many other US baked goods, I discovered they consider it haram ('Unlawful' / '"Prohibited"/ 'Unacceptable' or 'Forbidden') when it is prepared from willingly donated hair sweepings from Indian and Chinese barber shops/ hair salons, as it was up until recently. They now use bird feathers, instead, so Muslims can eat their baked goods now.
    Hi Mahk

    No offence taken. You make some good points and I'm probably not to everybody's taste.

    Soylent Green is one of my favourite films even though it stars -'where's my rifle?'- Charlton Heston.

    I can agree that voluntary cell donation (to produce 'meat') will have ethical implications, but sometimes things that are taboo in one age, become acceptable in the next eg homosexuality, atheism. For all I know, adding human genes to food products to 'improve'them in some way, might not seem so bizarre in 20 years time. I understand that fish genes have already been added to tomatoes to make them more cold-resistant. As you say, often our aversion to things seems to have no rational explanation.

    A shame that Muslims might have to miss out; I wonder how many years they were eating hair sweepings from barbers shops/hair salons before somebody told them (not that non-Muslims will have been happy either).

    Anyway I look forward to the day when people can buy leedsveg in a tin can. I've already thought of the brand name: LEEDS-CAN (short for LEEDS CANNIBAL). Er, maybe not.


  29. #29
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Sorry but I got so fascinated by the idea of eating myself that I posted the same message twice.
    Last edited by leedsveg; Apr 18th, 2009 at 10:26 PM. Reason: double submission

  30. #30
    JC
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Say scientists did come up with this 'in vitro meat' - as it doesn't involve the killing of animals, does that make it vegan? And if it were vegan, would any of you eat it?

  31. #31
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Quote JC View Post
    Say scientists did come up with this 'in vitro meat' - as it doesn't involve the killing of animals, does that make it vegan? And if it were vegan, would any of you eat it?

    no the idea turns my stomach, and anyway doesn't the original culture come from an animal?
    just no no no!!

  32. #32
    JC
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Just curious
    If i comes from an animal then, but animals aren't harmed, i guess that would make it vegetarian? In theory.

  33. #33
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Quote JC View Post
    Just curious
    If i comes from an animal then, but animals aren't harmed, i guess that would make it vegetarian? In theory.
    *shudder*
    probably as vegetarian as an egg i suppose

  34. #34
    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    uh... and what if it didn't taste the same as the meat from animals? Today I was in the dining hall and picked up a "BBQ Vegan Riblet" (the only kind of fake meat I eat, because it's the only available source of tempeh), and I passed by there twice... both times I watched a group of guys stop there talking to each other about it. One of them was licking an ice cream cone and saying, "I'm not vegan." In the second group, these guys were like, "Uh... vegan riblet?" and then this other guy walked up and said, "Dude, don't even try it. Don't even try it."

    I thought it tasted perfectly fine. As I haven't tasted real meat in over half a year now, I can't tell how different it is from real meat, but I think their problem is not that it tastes bad, but that they're comparing it to real meat. They are accustomed to real meat, and because the tempeh meat lacks some of the qualities of real meal, they think it's bad.

    Ugh. Therefore, if the meat doesn't taste EXACTLY like "real meat" and have exactly the same nutrients, it's not just going to replace meat from real animals. That it's not "real." Please, let's focus on changing people's view on animals, not on making sure they don't have to change a thing.
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

  35. #35
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Quote JC View Post
    Say scientists did come up with this 'in vitro meat' - as it doesn't involve the killing of animals, does that make it vegan? And if it were vegan, would any of you eat it?
    If one is a vegan because they oppose meat, then this is definitely not vegan because it is meat except it was grown in a test tube instead of on an actual animal. If, however, one is a vegan because they oppose the harming of animals [I fall in this camp] then this is arguably vegan depending on how they procure the starter cells. Stem cells are abundant in umbilical cords, for example. If the starter cells were taken from some pet cow's natural afterbirth, for example, what to the mother cow and her newborn calf is considered completely worthless waste, then I don't see how any animal(s) has been harmed/exploited/killed etc.
    ----

    Say I wear cotton shirts that were produced in America. The cotton seeds that made the plants came from other American cotton plants a generation earlier, right? Well the great- great- great- great- great- great- great- grand parent cotton plant was probably planted by an American slave in the early 1800's here. Does that mean my cotton shirt is the product of slave labor? If one eats cloned lab meat that is the clone of a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone of a few cow ear cells used as "starter cells" that were scraped off the back of a live cow's ear with a toothpick into a petri dish and the cow may have even felt it [Oh my! ], but mistook it for a fly, does that mean we've "harmed and exploited" an animal against its will? Oh, and don't forget, we did this "atrocity" to save the lives of millions of future cows, reduce global warming, save fresh water, eliminate factory farming for beef production... Still not vegan?

  36. #36
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Well said Mahk

    Although meat grown in a vat may be some years away, it's good to consider now the implications for vegans, especially since animal/human genes may soon be introduced into foods we usually consider 'suitable for vegans'. (I already feel a bit uneasy at eating beef tomatoes.)

    If this meat is produced I presume that it will have to be tested on animals thereby making it unsuitable for vegans anyway?


  37. #37
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    (I already feel a bit uneasy at eating beef tomatoes.)

    If this meat is produced I presume that it will have to be tested on animals thereby making it unsuitable for vegans anyway?
    Good point. Not sure. For those of us who choose to never take drugs or medicines because all of them were once tested on animals before being released to market I would say they'd probably want to avoid this stuff too [assuming we determine it is animal tested first; since PeTA is actively involved maybe it wont be]. I don't fall in that crowd seeing as I wear safety belts in cars, too. [The initial and then on going development of safety belt design and retraction mechanisms was tested on animals, including pigs and dogs, as crash test "dummies", although they were alive, up until the 1980s. GM finally agreed to stop then and we have PeTA to thank for that, by the way.]

    There are so many variables we don't know the details of: growth medium? what starter cells are used and how are they procured? low term economic feasibility? potential for genetic manipulation to make it a low cholesterol/high vitamin D (for example) product? market acceptance? It's too early to make judgment calls, in my humble opinion.

    In a PeTA poll it was determined that 43% of average hamburger eaters said they'd gladly try [or was it "switch to"?] a veggie burger if it tasted good and there was a compelling reason like cost, health, fat/calories reduction, etc. I don't know of any such poll asking about lab meat but maybe they (PeTA) do. Hmm?

  38. #38
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    .........but we all know that cells would not be taken from 'some pet cow' - farming and food production isn't like that these days.

    Personally even if it did work that way i wouldn't eat it, the idea of eating something manufactured from animal cells revolts me.

  39. #39
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Quote cobweb View Post
    .........but we all know that cells would not be taken from 'some pet cow' - farming and food production isn't like that these days.

    Personally even if it did work that way i wouldn't eat it, the idea of eating something manufactured from animal cells revolts me.
    Hi Cobweb

    Don't forget that further up the thread, I suggested using human cells, so you may not need to worry about animal cells (from an involuntary donation). Although I have no particular qualms about eating human flesh grown from a culture, I just could not see myself going into McDonalds to buy a 'suitable for vegans "McHumanburger"'.

    Not on topic but it struck me today why so many people who know about veganism never take the plunge. It's because their love of compassion is not as strong as their love of cheese/steak/eggs/milk/wool/leather/bacon..

    leedsveg

  40. #40
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    i still wouldn't eat human grown meat, either, Leedsveg. I used to love meat til i realised how it was produced. Now i am very aware of my food, like most vegans. I just don't see the need to produce this kind of meat when there are so many delicious meat alternatives already in production. Plus i think anything farmed from living cells is susceptible to hygeine/disease problems.

  41. #41
    auryn23's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    These are all excellent points. And leedsveg, I got a severe hot oil burn on my wrist a few years ago and it did smell just like chicken. I am not kidding. So if we combined your cells with some almost boiling extra virgin olive oil, some garlic....

    I have been dying for someone to come up with a fast food vegan restaurant here in Bloomington, complete with drive through and everything. I wonder how many people would actually eat less meat if vegan/vegetarian options were more readily available? Think about it...how many people eat crappy, processed meat because it's fast and cheap? I bet it's more than those eating top of the line steak. I have some great ideas about this, if someone wants to put the money down for it!

  42. #42
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Considering the majority of the US eats L-cysteine in most baked goods, which is often made from human volunteered hair as I mentioned, in a sense most Americans are cannibals. If we also started to eat Leedsveg's volunteered blood product I guess we'd be "cannibalistic vampires".
    ---
    I haven't eaten any animal flesh for a quarter of a century and no longer desire it but I have no problem with vegans who want to eat lab meat as long as no animal harm is done. If they invent self-replicating "lab Reese's peanut butter cups" however, I'll be the first one on line.
    ---
    I thought of one more. We could invent self replicating lab human milk machines. Let's hear someone attempt to explain why adults drinking volunteered lab human milk is unethical. I challenge you all. [it may not be healthy but that's a side issue, not ethics.] Drinkers of it would be called "anthro-lacto-vegans".

    MMM, tastes like soy milk!

  43. #43
    auryn23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Quote Mahk View Post
    --- If they invent self-replicating "lab Reese's peanut butter cups" however, I'll be the first one on line.
    Amen to that!! And brie.....

  44. #44
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Considering the majority of the US eats L-cysteine in most baked goods, which is often made from human volunteered hair as I mentioned, in a sense most Americans are cannibals.
    Mahk

    I'd not heard of this until you mentioned it. What does the USA Muslim community have to say? (As far as I know it's not a common substance in British food and if it was, I think that British Muslims would be extremely upset.) Is it necessary to have it in food, or is there a viable alternative?

    leedsveg

  45. #45
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    I'm not 100% sure but I think your country may have "baked off" laws. This means that some ingredients that are used in very small quantities, say <2% perhaps, that are also considered to disappear after baking need not be legally listed. Imagine if you dipped a piece of bread in vodka and then put it in the toaster until it was toast. The alcohol content has "baked away" ie evaporated. Kind of like that.

    Muslims won't eat blood from any animal, even yours, and eating human hair is considered cannibalism to them [and me]. Their complaints to Dunkin Donuts was what prompted their conversion from human hair to bird feathers for their L-cysteine production but that's sketchy to Muslims as well. Learn more re. their Haram/Halal/Mushbooh food laws here.


    L-cysteine info.

    Dunkin Donuts L-cysteine info.

    Do you have Dunkin Donuts in your country? Are they big? They are here, almost as big as McDonald's maybe even bigger in number of locations.

    Edit to add: I just called D.D. (US 800-859-5339) and asked the source. "It is a synthesized compound. We have no info as to what it is synthesized from and I'm not allowed to tell you our supplier company's name, sorry." So it could be made from oil, rocks, plants, hair, feathers, i.e. we have no idea. UK companies seem to disclose if their products are vegan or not more so than US companies do I've found, so maybe you could ask there.

    P.S. I also asked about the DATEM also found in the plain bagel, another iffy compond for us (often made from animal fat). The only detailed info she could divulge on that is that it is "natural". [So is botulism and chicken fat. Thanks lady.]

  46. #46
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Peta Growing Meat In Vitro

    Mahk

    Browsing Wikipedia, I notice that there are no Dunkin Donut outlets in the UK, although there used to be.

    Crikey! We might be sinking in a sea of debt, crime, unhealthy eating etc in this country, but at least we got rid of Dunkin Donuts.

    Who says that Britannia no longer 'rules the waves'? (Ok, we often wave the rules.)

    Yipee!

    leedsveg
    Last edited by leedsveg; Apr 20th, 2009 at 08:04 PM. Reason: spelling mistake

  47. #47
    tombenarye1234
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    Default whyculturedmeat.org

    a really really interesting site. i simply gobbled it up

    why you should read it:
    1. it's important for animal rights
    2. it is very interesting and written so...sincerely...
    3. it's not long. (I finished reading the whole site in less than an hour. it's pretty much 4 webpages)

    * i suggest to do read the hompage.:smile:

    http://www.whyculturedmeat.org
    Last edited by Korn; Nov 10th, 2009 at 09:09 AM. Reason: Merged with a similar thread

  48. #48
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: whyculturedmeat.org

    On a personal level I think the idea is of eating something that reminds of body parts of dead animals disgusting, and also a step in the wrong direction, because it strengthens the misconception that some people have; namely that meat is so important for nutrition and taste that if they shouldn't continue eating eat, they should at least try something as similar as possible.

    In the part of the world where there's the highest percentage of people who don't eat meat - India, there's practically no use of foodstuff that emulates meat, and the Indian kitchen is known worldwide for it's great taste.

    I'm not against the idea, and if it will help saving animal lives, its good, but personally I'll rather share the idea that meat isn't needed and that vegan food (without any fake meat) is at least as good and nutritious as the meat based diet most people live on.

    ETA: I merged this thread with one of the similar threads we have, where other aspects of cultured meat is discussed (eg. the health aspects of eating a copy of something that's known to create a lot of health problems, and the environmental aspects of producing in vitro meat compared with growing plants).
    Last edited by Korn; Nov 10th, 2009 at 09:10 AM.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  49. #49
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cultured (in vitro) meat

    Another thing is that since this isn't even a meat copy, but cloning, Peta or anyone else who promotes these products will have a hard time being taken seriously about the many unwanted side effects of eating meat. The promotion of using cloned meat will clutter any attempt of telling people about the many links between meat and cancer etc (as eg. discussed in this thread). Any vegan or Animal Rights activists who use the health aspects of eating meat as one of her arguments pro going vegan, and at the same time promotes use of something which is a clone of that animal product will have a hard time being taken seriously.

    Of course it's better that people dies of cancer they have gotten from eating cloned meat than from having eaten meat, but with so many meat eaters and so few vegans, we just have to make up our mind regarding what we'll spend time on promoting.

    If I would have been a cannibal, and finally made the decision to stop eating human meat, and someone would offer me a product that had the nutrition level, the taste, the texture and the unwanted side effects associated with eating human meat, would I be happy with the cloned meat then? Or would I rather focus on moving towards eating real food, with real spices, no animal fats (or animal fat clones)... and so on?

    I totally understand that people who are used to meat (or anything else) may miss meat (or anything else) for a while after having stopped using it. But moving away from eating meat isn't only a step away from the physical act of eating someone else's legs or hips, it's also a psychological step out of a habit that has been forced upon us. Maybe that step away from eating others' body parts will become easier and more fulfilling if we take a real step away from the very idea that other living beings' muscles is something that we're supposed to keep gnawing on (or find copies of)?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  50. #50
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Cultured (in vitro) meat

    Quote Korn View Post
    If I would have been a cannibal, and finally made the decision to stop eating human meat, and someone would offer me a product that had the nutrition level, the taste, the texture and the unwanted side effects associated with eating human meat, would I be happy with the cloned meat then? Or would I rather focus on moving towards eating real food, with real spices, no animal fats (or animal fat clones)... and so on?
    I think you have to remember why you gave up 'your cannibalism' but I notice that you make no mention of any cruelty aspect. I also consider that there may be slightly different ethical implications when a vegan considers whether to eat 'cloned-meat' as opposed to eating 'faux-meat. I'll think more deeply on this when/if 'cloned-meat' comes in the shops. 'Faux-meat' is often suitable for vegans and you may not consider it an ideal food, but if it's suitable for vegans, it's suitable for vegans. Not sure what will influence the future diet of a current omni but I'm blowed if I'll let omnis dictate what should be in my current vegan diet.

    leedsveg

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