That's definitely true. I got into veganism through punk and all the vegans I know through the UK/US diy punk scenes.Troutina
That's definitely true. I got into veganism through punk and all the vegans I know through the UK/US diy punk scenes.Troutina
I think also because a lot of gigs have leaflets about it as well.jackxattack
And when you meet people who are vegan it encourages you.
I put on gigs in Burgess Hill and we had Amnesty International leaflets and reading material, Viva leaflets and vegan society leaflets.
So do friends who put on gigs in Worthing and a lot of Concorde shows do too.
I don't pay any attention to polls as they usually just cover one area and ask a limited amount of people and just guess from there.
As for those who say they are vegetarian and still eat fish, I know many people who will soon tell them pretty quick that they are still carnivores. Two volunteers that I work with are vegetarians who eat eggs and cheeses but use soya milks in all of their drinks and shakes.
I live in Guisborough and I don't believe that there are actually any other vegans here. I have talked with the staff of all of the food catering places and they too have never come across any vegan who lives in even the surrounding areas nevermind here.
ALONE !!!!
I have an idea for what we can do to increase the vegan population here in the UK.
What we need to do is start up an exclusively vegan breeding program. Since vegans are much healthier than omnivores and vegetarians, we will live as they die out due to the survival of the fittest. I am willing to put myself forward as the Alpha Male of this breeding program. Yes, it's a sacrifice, but the ends will justify the means.
So ... form a line ..
Hmm ... initially it sounds like a good idea but i would maybe run and hide if were you, this could bring about an unrising of women with strong feminist views if the make-up thread is anything to go by!!!
Anyone any other ideas apart from a soley vegan breeding program lead by Russ??
"Human Freedom, Animal Rights, One Struggle, One Fight!!"
Hey I was arguing strong feminist views too on other threads!
.. I can't believe it's come to this, but here we go: I was just making a small joke (hahaha etc.) There is nothing anti-feminist about making a joke about having sex with a lot of people. Geez ...
Erm Russ, Red Star did have a big grin face in her post, I think she may well have been joining in with the joke!
It's political correctness gone mad.
I was, i wasn't being serious in the slightest!! Sorry if you took it the wrong way, i do apologise
"Human Freedom, Animal Rights, One Struggle, One Fight!!"
Or wanting to be first in the queue for Russ's attentions maybe.....
Hey, I make the jokes around here. I don't get them.
In San Diego we have a vegan store, a vegan grocery store and a vegan restaurant.John
I'm thinking of moving to either San Diego or at least NYC. I hear good things about the vegan communities around those places.Blazin_Gwen
and a vegan catering service!Blazin_Gwen
run by none other than (where has she beeen) our CC!!
the aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, dunkenly, serenely, divinely aware.
-henry miller
I think the number of vegan is not gonna grow high if most of vegan (at least most of the vegans I know) are decided to not have children...Maybe 2 vegans out of 3 do not want children or maybe 1 or 2... It's not gonna solve the problem.
Do you know why most vegans don't want to increase number of vegans and therefore enlarging veganism? We need to be more numerous... so let's beget now lol
Could we speak about the issue of increasing vegan population by having children? Or is there another topic about it?
Christophe
I'd be happy to increase the vegan population, as soon as they figure out a way for guys to give birth!Do you know why most vegans don't want to increase number of vegans and therefore enlarging veganism?
Klayr - I'm with you! There is no way i'm putting myself through child birth, i don't think i'll ever be ready for screaming kids runnin around my feet!!
"Human Freedom, Animal Rights, One Struggle, One Fight!!"
Well, firstly, I personally have no desire to take responsibility for a child and I can't see that changing any time during the course of my life.geysir111
Second, and this is the chronically depressed, cynical pessimist/misanthropist in me talking, I don't think I could be cruel enough to bring another life into this horrendous world.
Third, no vegan lives their life without leaving some footprint on someone somewhere. Just because someone doesn't eat meat and dairy doesn't mean they're not going to have a negative effect on the world in some other way. Anyway, you might be able to force your kid to be vegan but for how long, at some point they're going to grow up and make their own decision, lo and behold you have brought another meateater into the world.
Fourth, I would rather increase the number of vegans by turning omnis into vegans through education. It seems to me that would do more than just birthing new vegans because that doesn't REDUCE the number of omnis, hence same number of animals being killed.
Thank you for your nice answer Russ, These are strong arguments...
Everybody has his own desire and means in his/her life so it's your choice, but I think you don't wanna take this responsability maybe because of your following reasons. I would be ready to have up to 15 children maybe... And one of the numerous reason which strenghten my desire of having children is that I believe that having veggie or vegan children will make the world a better place.Russ
I'm a humanitarian misanthrope too I think... but still, there's hope and that's why having children raised in harmony and respect will let them be the change that we want for mankind future... and even if you believe there's no hope, then why are you vegan? or if you believe there's no hope for mankind, then consider than it's worthy to fight for a cause which is ineluctably aim to die (maybe that's more a question of honour or belief I admit).Russ
RussAs far as I know, there's actually about 1.8 hectare of productiv land available for humans, according that we leave 12% of our planet to natural preservation. In the very future, I hope that human population will decrease, when the lawmakers (and that depends of our votes and of the creation of alternativ vegetarian political parties) will decide a proper and humane population control (by birth control) in order to prevent a Malthusian catastrophe. I know that loads of vegan, especially those who aren't that much environmentally-friendly, are using much more natural ressources than they should. But it's our duty to raise possible children in respect of the Earth, natural ressources available and others.Russ
Check thy ecological footprint on our very Earth. I had 1.8 but hope to lower this in the future... They don't take into accoumpt our travels by boat with motor propulsion (sail propulsion is pretty environmentally-friendly isn't it?)?
And about child training, it depends of how you educate them... with a not-so-strong-authority when you listen to your children and give them a good education with a high social context and strong links within the community. In that way, things will be unlikely that he had a teenage crisis. And then they'll become veggies or vegans who will act for a better world in the way they want... or at least they'll just respect it. And even if one children out of ten becomes omni, then I wouldn't damn me...
Well, children you'll have will themselves turns omni into veggies and so on... But anyway, an ethical birth control policy has to be taken by UN or at least by most countries.Russ
Christophe
How many vegans does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
... Two
Think about it
What are the UKs Vegan Society member figures? That would be a nice place to start, though I was vegan for ages before I actually thought about joining.
Don't know about other countries, but we're definitely growing and the awareness is growing.
When I meet new people through my job and mention I'm vegan, more often than not, the person I'm talking to mentions that they know a vegan, that they themself were once vegetarian etc.
How would you enforce birth control? Drowning unwanted kids in paddy fields like China? (Edit: "AUTHORITARIAN".)
There is no Malthusian crisis on the horizon. To be honest I think Malthus's arguments were a little simple. There's enough food for everyone in the world right now, distribution is the problem, and we can trace that back to systems of exploitation, including but not limited to, capitalism.
"Everybody has his own desire and means in his/her life so it's your choice, but I think you don't wanna take this responsability maybe because of your following reasons"
Agree on the first part, I wasn't advocating that anyone should tell anyone else when and if they can have kids or not; I would never even suggest such a horrible idea. Second part, no, it has nothing to do with my following reasons, I have absolutely no desire to have a child or children, it has always been that way and I think always will.
"and even if you believe there's no hope, then why are you vegan?"
I don't always believe there's no hope for this planet, just in those darker moments. As I said, it was the cynic in me talking. Even if there was no hope, as a matter of principle I feel it's my responsibility to fight against systems of exploitation. If the world ends tomorrow, I'm still going to try to alleviate as much suffering as I can today.
My ecological footprint was 1.2. Apparently if everyone lived like me we would need 1.0 planets.
I have never heard that "most vegans don't want to increase the number of vegans and therefore enlarging veganism" - of course this isn't the case...geysir111
I just edited a post in this thread - there's no need to imply that others are representing fascist opinions, really. Please just share your opinions, and try not to insult others.
Controlling/denying birth rights isn't (deleted)? It sure is as far as I can tell. I think my point was a fair one. If you like I can use a different word like "authoritarian".
Please do. (Authoritarian covers a lot more than 'fascist' anyway.)
Yes, I know. Many Conservatives could be considered authoritarian but would probably be repulsed by the idea of denying people their reproductive rights. Hence the term I used fits better.
But if the F-word causes offence here, fine, I will edit the post to say "authoritarian".
That you're point of view, to be honest I'm not for authoritarianism or something like that, despite the fact that I'm not for total anarchy. I've talmked about ethical birth control. Nobody want things that happen like in China. I'm vegan because of compassion and respect for innocents beings, and I wouldn't like any harm on unborn and born babies. So before doing anything, scientific research would have to be done. But I'm actually much more for a solution of informing people about overpopulation and encouraging them to have less children, with advertisment and public relations. But anyhow, I just thought that while talking together, I wouldn't promise on my soul that this solution is the very best one.Russ
Of course the problems doesn't come only from overpopulation, the root of the problem is a bad management of natural ressources on our planet and an inequitable allotment of food and resources.Russ
Actually that's true I think but the Earth wouldn't be able to bear a few more millions of people without destroying much more animals inhabitat...
Ok, fair enough them, I respect your ideas so, my best friend also think that way and would prefer abortion than bearing a child. So, no worries, but I just found a bit pity that there is so less vegan who want children (amongst my acquaintances at least).Russ
I completely agree with you on that point.Russ
And please remember, I'm not a kind of fascist vegan... maybe it does exist but I don't think it's fair to say that because you're for birth control, then you're fascist. Loads of ecologist are for birth control and I do prefer regulation than overpopulation and then dyings of hunger
Before the edit, I didn't actually call you a fascist (and I don't think you are), I just kind of implied that the ideas of controlling reproduction rights remind me of those ideas. After the edit, I guess it looks a lot more like I said the former since I replaced it all with one word in caps lock. But that was cause I was kind of annoyed at being censored. Had to clear that up.
Oh, and using education and information, I am with you there.
I'm just very sceptical of Malthus, who if I remember correctly argued that the poor should be left to die. Perhaps I was too harsh in earlier posts on this thread.
No problems for your sayings... I know this is harsh to be censored...Russ
I am for using education and information, but at a point, maybe in a couple of decades, I am for regulation for a period where people would be aware that it's gonne become illegal to have more than... let's say 2 or 3 children, or 1. And after, condamning people for having too much children, but when most of the population would be ready for that of course. It's like banning meat, you just can't do it right now without information... If it's done, the black mearket of meat will grow and cause much more suffering to animals.
PS: I'm thinking about opening a thread about "veganism in anarcho-capitalism" and one about "veganism but what about eating humans" (dead humans, not killing them for food lol)
What would you think about that?
Haha, eating dead people ... well, there's a lot to consider here. I mean, people die a lot from illness, meaning they probably wouldn't make a healthy meal.
I guess if someone has given consent to being eaten after they die naturally, there's no ethical argument against it, but I'm not really sure about the health benefits of cannibalism.
Of course if you eat their brains, you can know what they know ...
I have never met anyone that I would care to eat
Eating humans...a 'Modest Proposal' indeed
I don't think it would catch on in the UK... Human steak with potatoes and veg - yuk, no doesn't tempt me at all.
"Human Freedom, Animal Rights, One Struggle, One Fight!!"
It's better with horseradish and mustard.the_red_star
Hey, we already have worse food.
Brussel Sprouts?Russ
fish and chips in greasy newspaper. i mean really, what the hell is the deal with that. it just makes no sense.
According to the study mentioned here, 1.4 % of the US population never eat meat, poultry, fish/seafood, dairy products/eggs. (It's unknown if these people eat honey). The US population is approx. 300 million, which means that according tho these numbers, 4.2 million people above 18 live on a vegan or near vegan diet.
Last edited by Korn; Dec 5th, 2010 at 02:37 PM.
I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.
Korn, I see a problem in that study's methodology you link to. Unlike us, average people don't read the ingredients list of everything they eat. They don't know what they eat! They also don't interrogate ever food preparer that serves them (friend, family, or restaurant). For example, I'm thinking of the incredible 23.4% in that study who claim to "never" eat honey! What they really mean is they never reach for the honey container and use it themselves. What they don't realize is that honey is commonly found in many muffins, pastries, mustard sauces, cereals, cookies, biscuits, beers, soups, and breads that they eat every day.
I have yet to find a whole wheat bread (where I shop) that doesn't contain honey!
Good points... it all depend on how the questions were asked. The Vegetarian Resource Group were responsible for the questions, and according to what they wrote, "1.4% never eat meat, poultry, fish/seafood, dairy products/eggs (vegan, except for possibly honey)", but numbers could be wrong due to what you describe...
Maybe... OTOH, the number of label readers are growing, and people who don't like the taste of honey (like myself) may check labels to make sure that honey taste doesn't pop up in products they buy.For example, I'm thinking of the incredible 23.4% in that study who claim to "never" eat honey! What they really mean is they never reach for the honey container and use it themselves.
That's actually not common at all where I shop, but then again - I don't live in Beantown, MA anymore.I have yet to find a whole wheat bread (where I shop) that doesn't contain honey!
I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.
Korn, you once lived in Boston? No wonder why you're so cool !
My main hurdle (in the avoidance of honey) is not in its use as a sweetener, nor as a flavor, but rather as an "inconsequential" ingredient. Let me explain. In many naive Americans' eyes, "honey" is considered a downright "health food". They are starting to learn that white sugar is bad for them, they don't have a clue what "high fructose corn syrup" is, and they think honey (especially when adorned with such words as "all-natural, 100% pure, USDA certified, organic, fresh mountain blossom") is wholesome and nutritious! I see it listed in so many "health foods", that would otherwise be vegan, that I've come to the conclusion that sometimes it has been carefully chosen to be added solely to make the ingredients list "look better" to the average, dumb, American consumer. Here is a classic example of a soup, found in the health food section of my super market, that clearly gets any "sweetness" from the inclusion of sugar way up high on its ingredients list, but the third to last ingredient listed by quantity (and in an amount below that of salt!) is "organic honey":
Ingredients
Organic Vegetable Stock (Water, Vegetable [Certified Organic Ingredient] and Concentrated Vegetables [Certified Organic Ingredient] (Carrots [Certified Organic Ingredient], Celery [Certified Organic Ingredient], Onions [Certified Organic Ingredient], Tomato [Certified Organic Ingredient]), Salt, Autolyzed Yeast Paste [Certified Organic Ingredient], Cane Sugar [Certified Organic Ingredient], Soy Sauce [Certified Organic Ingredient] (Water, Soybean [Certified Organic Ingredient], Salt, Alcohol [Certified Organic Ingredient]), Maltodextrin [Certified Organic Ingredient], Natural Flavor, Potato Starch [Certified Organic Ingredient], Autolyzed Yeast Extract, Dried Onion [Certified Organic Ingredient], Dried Garlic [Certified Organic Ingredient], Spice [Certified Organic Ingredient]), Organic Lentils, Organic Roasted Potatoes (Potatoes [Certified Organic Ingredient], Calcium Chloride), Organic Onions, Organic Carrots, Organic Celery, Organic Tomatoes (Tomatoes [Certified Organic Ingredient], Tomato Juice [Certified Organic Ingredient], Calcium Chloride and Citric Acid), Organic Spinach, Contains 2% or Less of the Following: Organic Potato Starch, Sea Salt, Organic Honey, Organic Garlic, Organic Spice.
Perhaps I'm just being paranoid. Or could there be an anti-vegan, "honey conspiracy" ?
I heard that there were 600,000 of us as of 2007. That seems more feasable(sp?) than 250,000....out of 60 million?? Vegetarians I think are at about 4million last time I read something from the veg soc. Either way stats aren't accurate. We should campaign for the next census to include a section on diet. That way the government can see the healthy or not so healthy eating habits of particular communities and work on improving it. (In an ideal world to a vegan diet hehe!) There is a petition site on the Downing St site...that might be a good place to start...(if anyone knows how to do this...I'll sign it hehe) and also if people in this country truely realise how many of us there are maybe they will think that it is not that hard to be vegan.
The taste of anything in my mouth for 5 seconds does not equate to the beauty and complexity of life.
Thanks Korn.
Mahk, please do not ask me for stats or links. This is what I think. It's not been research at all.
I'd guess theres a much higher percentage of people in developed/ 1st world (I hate the term 1st world...) countries such as Western Europe, United States, Canada that call themselves vegan. It's sort of a luxury to avoid animal products. But I'd say in some cultures there are a large proportion of people that are vegetarian based on resources or religion or tradition. I doubt people in tribal Africa or villages in Cambodia are interested in limiting their diet further. Though I'd say there's much more of a dietary discrepency between Western diets and veganism than there is between traditional ethnic cuisine of say, Ethiopia or Thai, and veganism.
For some reason, I've always heard that 1% of th population in the US is vegan. Which I doubt... but the more, the better!
*Giggles at Russ' idea*
Personally, I think that the number of Vegans in the UK is only going to grow...you know how there's this massive 'individualist' movement (or whatever you want to call it!) at the moment, which basically says the more alternative you are, the more popular you're going to be? Tons of people I know have made the switch to vegetarianism simply because they think it's 'cool' and 'different'. Ahaha, such flawed lodgic, but I suppose if they're kicking the meat, it's all good, right?
Personally, I can absolutely see hundreds of 'alternative' teenagers, and such, making the change to veganism, because they'll see it as a way of expressing themselves. It'll be like Vegan-Anarchy in the UK! Or V for VEGAN-DETTA!
Maybe all vegans should start wearing Emo clothes or something. Methinks they're the ones most likely to be influenced, since they are, after all, all about being individually dressed in black, etc. Maybe becoming vegan would give them a justification for being so emotional: i.e. they can sob over the deaths of so many millions of animals each year.
One thing which really would help the vegan society grow would probably be be loud and proud vegan celebs. For example, I saw an article the other day about Orlando Bloom wearing his vegan bracelet 'LOUD AND PROUD' or something. I thought this was pretty awesome because A) Women will immediately think 'OH EM GEE, I MUST BECOME A VEGAN TO IMPRESS THE SUPER-SEXY-SUPERSTAR' and B) Men will think 'Holy smokes! Men LOVE that guy! We'd better get our vegan on, so that we might become 1 - particularly attractive, and 2 - potentially more attractive to women.
(Please note, Johnny Depp should most absolutely definitely become a vegan and do this - can you imagine the TWO of them doing it? They'd be some sort of unstoppable force!)
Female celebs should also do this sort of thing. It'd be great; especially since the majority of them are stunning. It could work with a sort of 'by association' thing, like people will immediately think that veganism is 1 - super cool, and 2 - might perhaps make you beautiful (not entirely untrue, since you will be stunning, at least on the inside! )
Finally, I think we seriously need to do more vegan publicity events and such things; perhaps more leaflets and such? There's a lot of stuff I'd like to see done to advertise the cause. Personally, though gross, I'm rooting for more graphic examples of why we need to become vegan. I know that for some people, including myself, this sort of thing is a great big kick up the backside; even things like watching/reading Animal Farm affected me a lot. Apparently (so says a family friend) some schools are now taking kids to slaughter-farms (don't know the official names, but you can guess what I mean?!), so that the children can see 'where there food is coming from'. I think this is a great idea. The family friend's daughter became vegetarian the moment she got home - as well as how many others? I think this could be an awesome thing!
That's about all I've got to say...sorry about the rather verbose 'speech' here!
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