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Thread: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

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    Default Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    So which one would you consider yourself to be? In my short time of being a vegan, I have decided that the abolitionist approach is much better and effective. While almost all animal activist groups (at least in the US) take a very welfarist approach, I think that animal welfare (which has been around for 200+ years) does not work and actually encourages people to feel better about eating meat and animal products. The whole "happy meat" and "free-range chicken and eggs" phenomenon only helps people to not feel guilty when sticking their forks into dead flesh.

    Animal welfare refers to the viewpoint that it is morally acceptable for humans to use nonhuman animals for food, in animal research, as clothing, and in entertainment, so long as unnecessary suffering is avoided. The position is contrasted with the animal rights position, which holds that other animals should not be used by, or regarded as the property of, humans.[2]


    Animal Abolitionist refers to the viewpoint that it is not morally acceptable to use animals in any way, including as pets, food, in entertainment or for any kind of experimentation and medical research.



    Groups like PETA are rewarding places like KFC in Canada and Whole Foods (which sells meat) for being animal friendly. I think this is wrong and only encouraging people to eat animals and animal products.


    Gary Francione, a leader in the Abolitionist approach (check out his amazing website www.abolitionistapproach.com) talks about how we need to stop thinking of animals as our property and stop using them for our needs. He claims that many animal activist groups like PETA and the Humane Society do not push Veganism because they would lose out on their donar base (many of whom are not even vegeterians).



    I would think that most vegans would agree with the abolitionist approach, but why then are there so many animal activist groups out there who are promoting the improvement of animal welfare instead of pushing the education of Veganism? And why are vegans supporting that?


    Wouldn't it be better if we got out there ourselves and promoted non-violent vegan education with non-judgemental attitudes? I don't think we can ever hope to get the majority of people Vegan by trying to enact laws that help animals on farms. I think that people will go Vegan through education and becoming informed. Not everyone of course will go Vegan, but the hope is that we will eventually shift to a society that looks as down on animal explotation as they now do to slavery.


    Opinions?



  2. #2
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I'm an abolitionist but i'm also a realist. If i get the chance to improve the welfare of animals i take it, even if i disagree completely with the 'use' of them for pretty much any purpose.

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    nature|nurture
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I'm an abolitionist (regarding my idea of how things should be), but in terms of spreading veganism and drawing attentions to animal rights issues - I almost don't believe in anything.
    I don't really believe in power of "vegan education". Maybe because I haven't seen much of it in action.

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I'm an abolitionist too.............I just wish the message could get out there more. I try in my own limited way, it's not enough though!
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Cobweb... of what I've researched, most measures for improvement of animal welfare do very little to actually help the animals and just make more people comfortable with the idea of eating "happy meat".

    Say for example, eliminating the use of battery cages. Yes, animals are taken out of the cages but little is improved. They are still in a very large cage per say, and treated the same, yet it makes people feel better buying "free-range eggs". How is this helping us?

    Sandra- I think that any opportunity we take to educate people about veganism it is helping. Even if it's just planting a seed. Even if they don't become a vegan and just cut back. It's still helping. And if they do become a vegan, they will be talking to their friends and family and so on and so forth.

    I realize that it will talk a very long time to switch the way society thinks and I'm a realist about it but we as vegans should all do our part to educate, educate, educate. It does work... I know that I've encouraged a lot of people to at the very least cut back on their consumption of meat and animal products as well as turned some people vegetarian and vegan. I've planted a seed and that's my most important goal. If we just sit back and say nothing than nothing will get accomplished.

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I'm an abolitionist, but on a personal (and selfish) level I would be absolutely devastated if there were no more companion cats in the world because they're the only sort of people I can see myself being able to live with. Of course, in terms of my vegan philosophy it would be ideal not to have companion animals because they (well, cats) need to eat other animals, so I would support that outcome. However, I'm glad that it is unlikely to happen in my lifetime for the aforementioned selfish reasons.

  7. #7
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Laura, i totally get what you're saying, i meant really on a more individual level if i can help an animal i will stick my nose in and help if i can't remove the animal(s) from their situation.

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I know what you mean Veganchef..........the cats I have are all rescue cats and were not got as 'pets'.........I would miss not having the opportunity to live with such lovely animals. I do hate the fact that they eat other animals but that's what they would do if they lived wild so what can I do?
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Abolitionist, sadly.

  10. #10
    puca
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I think abolitionism is a nice idea, but also very ethnocentric.

    I believe in it in theory, as I oppose all heirarchy... I guess I sway towards green anarchism?

    BUT in practice, not everybody has the resources to become vegan and of course there are cultural differences. Being a vegan in London is easy if you have money and doable if you're on a lower income, with less luxuries... Though 'ethical' commodities can be pricey.

    Some people depend on meat for their survival, so where do they stand ethically? What about people whose lives depend on agriculture?

    *Avoids an essay*

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    Quirky Vegan Kate1978's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Abolitionist, but currently we live in a culture where the use of animals for food, clothing, entertainment etc is considered the norm. Therefore, while disagreeing with all of the above practices, I feel that as an ethical vegan and someone who cares about animals that I can't just ignore that animals are kept for these purposes and turn my back on their welfare.

    However, I do see the problem with, say for example, rescuing former racing greyhounds or "spent" battery hens in that it could be construed that you are supporting those activities, and letting people who profit from them off the moral hook, so to speak.

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    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Abolitionist, definitely. Laura, unfortunately from the point of view of those of us who espouse Gary Francione's concept of abolitionism, many welfarist organizations as well as individuals have proclaimed themselves abolitionists. For example, PETA might not use that term, but they essentially consider themselves abolitionists. According to PETA's front page:

    According to organizations like PETA, abolitionism is strictly an end goal and not an immediate one.
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

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    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote puca View Post
    Some people depend on meat for their survival, so where do they stand ethically? What about people whose lives depend on agriculture?
    What about people whose lives depend on slavery? No one's life inherently "depends" on meat or raising animals for food, anymore than anyone's life inherently depends on slavery. People are supported by those things, but what is stopping them from finding another way to support themselves, or us from trying to help them do so?
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I think like a lot of AR activists, I'm closer to abolitionist but don't see it as a simplistic dichotomy. I've campaigned against foie gras, knowing that it will probably be replaced with another dead animal on a plate, but motivated partly by the extreme cruelty of foie gras and partly by the wish to raise the profile of animal rights in general, and as a starting point to talk about veganism.

    I'd definitely never talk of "free-range" meat or vegetarianism as an adequate solution - I think veganism has to be the goal, but by us raising awareness, we may provoke people to make some changes in that direction, which are positive, if not enough.

  15. #15
    puca
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote Sarabi View Post
    What about people whose lives depend on slavery? No one's life inherently "depends" on meat or raising animals for food, anymore than anyone's life inherently depends on slavery.
    Slavery is a big issue... I don't really know how to explain it other than saying "what about rape" or "what about murder"... I'm trying to see things from a human perspective of somebody with less resources than us... From a utilitarian perspective. I don't know a huge amount about a lot of slavery, but I know that at least for sex trafficking and circus trafficking in Nepal and India, it is more well off people and underground criminal networks profitting off it...

    But some people's life depends on eating meat. We are lucky enough to have an education to know what veganism is, to have the freedom of speech to write on these boards, to have the access to food of our choice. Most people don't. You can't blame them if they don't have the education and money we do.

    We are blessed to even be able to contemplate veganism.

    People are supported by those things, but what is stopping them from finding another way to support themselves, or us from trying to help them do so?
    I was gonna say something like this... I think there are so many issues that make it hard (or impossible) for people to be vegan. The WTO and other trade systems, as well as environmental problems and a multitude of other crap (enough to write books and books on) need to be tackled before we can just 'expect' people to be vegan.

    The same case with child labour. We consider a 12 year old to be a child... Some families in poverty will be sending their 12 year olds out to work because there's no infrastructure there for education, or welfare.

    As I said, I believe in it in theory, just as I believe in anarchism in theory, but in practice, we need infrastructures put in to place to allow it to happen.

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    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    puca, of course we need infrastructures to make it happen, but it seemed like you were making an argument against it. We need to build infrastructure for people in the developing world to have access to clean water supply, but I don't know what that has to do with whether or not we should support building a clean water supply. I see it as a caveat rather than a doubt.
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

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    puca
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote Sarabi View Post
    puca, of course we need infrastructures to make it happen, but it seemed like you were making an argument against it. We need to build infrastructure for people in the developing world to have access to clean water supply, but I don't know what that has to do with whether or not we should support building a clean water supply. I see it as a caveat rather than a doubt.
    Edit as internet is screwy:

    I get your point completely...

    I guess what I mean is that yes, I believe in abolitionism... But I think I don't really see it as a seperate issue to anything else, does that make sense?

    It's like when people ask me why I do environmental stuff because I have a human rights degree... Well human and non human animal rights, environmentalism, poverty, social justice are all so interlinked. Hence I guess I see it overly simplistic sometimes to say abolitionist, feminist, anti-globalisation ect when explaining how I feel about stuff.

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Definitely an abolitionist, but I hate that word. It has negative and tangental connotations.

    As far as the current argument is concerned:

    This world continues to stand on the shoulders of those who built the foundations. If the foundations had flaws, then it's a no brainer people - the rest of the game is going to have flaws. Peoples born into this world have to play the already established game of dog eat dog (in both senses of the word). That doesn't mean it's right. It is wrong. YES, it is possible for the majority to be dead wrong.

    It's up to people like us to change the game. Dig deep into the roots of the problem an keep pushing. Push forward and MAKE the change. Their are no good excuses to an abusive life style.

    Who cares what the labels we wear SAY we are. Who cares about definition! Follow your conscience, help make positive changes and press on.

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    one more abolitionist here...
    that doesn't see it so simplistically. But if I have to pick a side, I'm with abolition.
    context is everything

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    pat sommer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Yes, abolitionist but I must say that I part company with that general strategy: ignore suffering of existing animals until ultimate liberation. Ain't holding my breath.

    Very much agree with Jonny Mears #14
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    ♥♥♥ Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    As an abolitionist vegan, should I "support" causes that may be welfare-ist, like any PETA campaigns? As an abolitionist vegan, should I use material that come from animal groups that are very welfare heavy because they do offer some good materials? Or try to find abolitionist animal rights materials and/or write my own. An example would be, giving people PETA'S Vegetarian Starter packs when they ask questions about veg*nism.
    Peace, love, and happiness.

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    pat sommer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Was that rhetorical, Tigerliy?

    It just perked my ears up to the endless squabbling between the two camps.

    Reminds me of the old joke, "what's a liberal firing squad?" "form a circle"

    Not that we are doing that here and I appreciate all viewpoints
    Last edited by pat sommer; May 15th, 2009 at 04:57 AM. Reason: more polite
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I believe in abolitionism however any improvement or triumph in which animal suffering is made less or consumer opinions about meat are changed I'll will welcome gladly. I dont believe humans have the right to interfere with animals unless it is to help them or provide a better environment for them.

    The idea of pet ownership was always weird to me even before I was vegan. I'm curious what people think about pet ownership?

  24. #24
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Since I don't accept the stated definition of "welfarist" in the first post, the question itself is unanswerable.

    As an analogy, I stand for the abolition of murder, but that doesn't mean until society gets there I'm not allowed to support incremental steps towards that goal such as banning dangerous weapons for the general public. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive like the original question asserts.

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    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Gary Francione distinguishes between protectionism and prohibitionism... It's not really welfarism vs abolitionism, but rather regulationist vs prohibitionist. Regulationist laws do not resemble animal rights at all, whereas prohibitionist laws may be what Francione terms "proto-rights." I agree with Kosherbean that the word "abolitionist" has negative connotations, while welfare has positive connotations... and that's unfortunate. We should perhaps change the language here... because lots of people here seem to think, like PETA and Vegan Outreach, that abolitionism means only long-term and no short-term goals, which is silly.

    By the way, I was reading on another forum a thread about regulationism and how all kinds of welfare - I mean, regulationist - laws had resulted in increased consumption of animal products throughout Europe. But then again, abolishing fur farming in Austria only caused them to import fur... maybe what they should've done was ban the trading of fur rather than the obtaining of it.
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

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    pat sommer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Association or cause and effect? Meat consumption may indeed go up or down but pinpointing the relationship can be throwing darts blindfolded.

    I have seen Austrian fur farms and seen fur on nearly every back in Winter. All I can safely say is that fewer farms are profiting from the trade there. What will it take to end?

    It is so hard to talk of 'people' when each of us has come to our understanding from quite different paths. What reaches one turns off an other.

    Anybody working for animals has the chance to make an impact so I believe there is room for all
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote pat sommer View Post
    Yes, abolitionist but I must say that I part company with that general strategy: ignore suffering of existing animals until ultimate liberation. Ain't holding my breath.
    I agree with that, and I also don't feel there's any contradiction between wanting to end meat-eating and wanting to improve the way animals reared for food are treated in the meantime.

    I haven't yet seen any hard evidence that improving the conditions in which animals are reared for meat etc makes people eat more meat. I've seen anecdotal evidence, but I've also seen anecdotes to the effect that once people are conscious of the way their meat is produced they start to eat less of it (and may start to think about becoming vegetarian or vegan in some cases). Apart from anything else, improving conditions drives the price up and that should reduce demand, other things being equal.

    Eat Y'self Fitter, there are quite a few threads about companion animals but you may have to join the relevant group to see them (choose user control panel, group membership, 'companion animals')

  28. #28

    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Abolitionist. For a long time - certainly the whole time I was a vegetarian, but also for a lot of the time since I've been vegan, I didn't really have much of a stance on things like this. But listening to Vegan Freak Radio and reading Claire Askew's Generation V (Which I know is aimed at teens but I was only 18 at the time so I think it's allowable) pushed me more in the abolitionist direction. One of my vegetarian friends was considering veganism very recently, until she decided that she just doesn't "feel that strongly about it. I feel very strongly about being vegetarian though". I don't really get how someone can feel strongly about being a vegetarian and know about what's involved in dairy and egg production but not want to go vegan, but *sigh* what can you do?

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    ♥♥♥ Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote pat sommer View Post
    Was that rhetorical, Tigerliy?
    No, I'm being serious. Other than just being vegan I haven't done much activist work. I really don't know.
    Peace, love, and happiness.

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Since I don't accept the stated definition of "welfarist" in the first post, the question itself is unanswerable.

    As an analogy, I stand for the abolition of murder, but that doesn't mean until society gets there I'm not allowed to support incremental steps towards that goal such as banning dangerous weapons for the general public. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive like the original question asserts.
    Good analogy. I agree with this. I would love to see the end of humans using animals for whatever we please, but I'm realistic. Welfare is more realistic, I think, but it's definitely not something to limit yourself to. I don't know if I'm making any sense...

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Yup, you can speak for me anytime, Mahk.

    and Tigerlily, finding good literature that you agree with and that actually gets read and possibly understood, can be a minefield. Free and available is high on my criteria list regardless of source. Printing ain't too expensive here so sometimes I can get just what I need, Ex: a sm 2 side about elephant abuse that I can keep tucked in my pockets for our next Thailand trip.
    Last edited by pat sommer; May 16th, 2009 at 07:48 AM. Reason: typo
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    here´s another staunch advocate for abolitionism , although I don´t fully disdain welfarism. Whether both terms are necessarily at odds is uncertain to me

  33. #33
    BeforeTheLaw
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I am someone who believes in and pursues the ultimate and absolute abolition of animal exploitation.

    However, I am also someone who: a) believes that ultimate reality will and must come through the organization of popular, democratic support; and b) is painfully aware that he lives in a country where a controlling majority of the population subscribes to a system of belief that categorically denies animals the degree of moral consideration required to extend to animals protections on the level of rights.

    As such, I think the question misses the point, with the point being that the distinction between welfarist and abolitionist becomes irrelevant the moment we step outside of abstract theory and enter into the material practice of working together to fight for animal liberation.


    Some would respond that to describe the difference between welfarists and abolitionists as pertaining to 'abstract theory' is to deny that our most important function as advocates for animals is as educators. However, I believe that to educate we must translate our message of abolition into forms that can affect people with radically different belief sets. That translation is essential, and by clinging blindly to a notion of abolitionist purity in thought and action I believe we close the door on any hope for animals.

  34. #34
    LuVegan15
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    I'm an abolitionist but i'm also a realist. If i get the chance to improve the welfare of animals i take it, even if i disagree completely with the 'use' of them for pretty much any purpose.
    ^ same.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I'm suprised this thread hasn't got alot more heated. Normally there are some very fierce interactions when abolitionist theory and welfarist theory are discussed amongst vegans.
    I myself am an abolitionist simply because it goes hand in hand with everything I believe in. I do have cats, however if there were no companion animals left I would be glad. I'd rather they were diminished in numbers by anti-breeding programmes than what they now face.
    I fear the welfarist approach allows people to feel better about eating meat, dairy and eggs. Free range and organic is supposed to be better. The animals are supposed to have a better life. It is with these people that an initial seed has been planted. It is with these people that abolitionist theory works the best if they are ever exposed to it. The likes of Peta who reward KFC and Burger King for improvements in animal welfare are no better than the likes of the RSPCA who promote the killing of animals. (On a side note KFC and Burger King may consequently experience a rise in sales from people who think that their meat is ethically obtained and believe me there is nothing ethical about killing.)

    You would never find me on the streets asking people to sign a petition to have the severity of the LD50 test lowered or even banned so that lab animals may suffer less. You would find me shouting from the rooftops to get the bloody lab that is torturing animals closed down and a boycott of all their products.
    The taste of anything in my mouth for 5 seconds does not equate to the beauty and complexity of life.

  36. #36
    Prawnil
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I wouldn't really be convinced that true welfarist veganism exists - vegans with no essential objection to the use of other animal species for human ends? They wouldn't have an awfully firm basis for long term veganism.
    I think it's a casually overused distinction, and that being glad for a welfare reform is not often any -ism, but a basic concern for the wellbeing of other creatures.

    I think that it's possible to treat an exploitation as sitting on two axes - severity & replace-ability. In the example of animals as food, eating doesn't rely on animal products, so replaceability is high, and the leap a person would have to take to abandon animal food largely relies on education and seems the clear choice to work on, rather than reducing the severity.

    There are some cases in which the replace/remove-ability of the exploitation is relatively more difficult & complex, and in which I personally think that doubleheaded reduction of severity through milder reform, while the replacement/abolition is brought closer to reality, is quite sensible.
    For example, animal use for foods in an area where plant agriculture would be very difficult -If there was some way to reduce the severity of the animal use while conditions for its replacement were developed separately, then promoting welfare reform would not be antagonistic to eventual abolition.
    The main example I apply this to is lab animals. I support both the Dr Hadwen Trust, work to cultivate conditions for replacement, and FRAME, whose aim is not absolute replacement, but broaden the reduction of severity while there is no singlestep solution like there is in the case of food.

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Well said, Prawnil.

    If we weren't working for improved living conditions for captive animals would we then stand by as conditions worsened?

    If you want to shout from the rooftops, Emzy, good on you.
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    Quirky Vegan Kate1978's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote emzy1985 View Post
    I fear the welfarist approach allows people to feel better about eating meat, dairy and eggs. Free range and organic is supposed to be better.
    Totally agreed. I am waiting for a "rescue range" of eggs from rescued battery hens to be introduced as an "ethical" choice. There is some interesting psychology going on here: people who buy this stuff don't want animals to suffer while alive but still accept that animals must die to provide them with their bacon or BBQ chicken.

    To us the answer is obvious: don't eat animal products. However some clever marketing can make these people think that by making these choices they can have their cake and eat it (so to speak)!
    ~ Don't think twice, it's all right ~

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    ^ I think it's cause a lot of people believe that animals are ours to eat and whatnot, so since they're meant to be food, if they don't suffer then there's nothing ethically wrong with it.

  40. #40
    pavotrouge
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote emzy1985 View Post
    I'm suprised this thread hasn't got alot more heated. Normally there are some very fierce interactions when abolitionist theory and welfarist theory are discussed amongst vegans.
    seriously? I thought the abolitionist approach came in a package with being vegan. I haven't met any welfarist vegans.

  41. #41
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote pavotrouge View Post
    seriously? I thought the abolitionist approach came in a package with being vegan. I haven't met any welfarist vegans.

    i thought, that, too, the only welfarists i ever met were meat-eaters!

  42. #42
    pavotrouge
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    i thought, that, too, the only welfarists i ever met were meat-eaters!
    and middle-ages ex-hippies? talking about my local environmentalist group

  43. #43
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    ^ shhhh, don't mention the middle aged thing to me, i'm working through my mid-life crisis!

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    ^ *hug*

  45. #45
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    aw, thanks, think i am coming out the other side of it now, it's been quite bad for the last year or two

  46. #46
    Metal Head emzy1985's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote pavotrouge View Post
    seriously? I thought the abolitionist approach came in a package with being vegan. I haven't met any welfarist vegans.
    My parents are welfarist vegans, as are my two ex girlfriends who were vegan! I've also met plenty out and about over the years and on other forums.
    The taste of anything in my mouth for 5 seconds does not equate to the beauty and complexity of life.

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    aw, thanks, think i am coming out the other side of it now, it's been quite bad for the last year or two
    Anytime Hopefully the worst is over.

  48. #48
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Quote pavotrouge View Post
    I thought the abolitionist approach came in a package with being vegan. I haven't met any welfarist vegans.
    I think it comes at some time to most vegans - though not necessarily immediately. Some people may become vegan for their own health rather than animals', for instance. But, once you go vegan, you're forced to face issues such as animal usage. You draw some kind of line, even if that line moves with new knowledge and self-insight.

    This is just how I see it at this particular moment: once animal welfare is considered, you hopefully (!) move that line further towards abolition though it's entirely up to the individual where it stops.

    Like emzy, I'd guess there's lots of vegans who adore their [pets/companion animals/whatever you choose to call them] and so can easily be called hypocrites. That's where the in-fighting starts. I despair then because there's no easy answer.

    I love creatures of all kinds and would surround myself with them if I had the space and time. To reconcile that with veganism is heartbreaking.

  49. #49
    Pilaf
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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    "It only takes one spark to start a firestorm...a firestorm to purify..."

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    Default Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I don't understand why the abolitionist stance has to include the disbelief in companion animals.
    There are a lot of animals; cats, dogs, pigs, cows, etc. who are in need of good families and shouldn't be put down.
    I've heard numerous vegans argue against animals as property and perpetuation of homeless animals being due to the idea of "pets."
    However, this position doesn't discount the fact that numeroues shelter animals need permanent homes and some T.L.C.

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