Bull gores man to death in Spain

[gogs67]

Don't condemn a whole country because of one practice.
Much of Spain is semi rural and, as such, animals are seen as something to be 'used' for survival, be it for eggs, milk or meat. There is no real concept of 'cruelty', just necessity for most families.
The UK on the other hand has led the way in factory farming for years, the mass killing of animals for public consumption was conveniently pushed out of the average persons view so their meat consumption could skyrocket without having to think of the scale of slaughter.
Some mediterranean countries may appear outwardly crueler than us but, per head of population, far far more animals will be butchered in the UK!

[cobweb]

Cobweb, is boxing not a form of violence between animals? Are you pro-violence as long as there is money to be made and it's done "artistically"?

No
and
No

Good to see you keep an open mind about it.

I expect its the brain damage i have suffered from over my years of recklessly pursuing dangerous sports

Do 90% of people who use cars end up with brain damage, though?

Judging by what i see on the roads, 99% of 'em start out with brain damage

[gogs67]

And here's the pro/anti boxing thread!
http://veganforum.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=boxing

[Mahk]

Cobweb, is boxing not a form of violence between animals?

No

Please clarify A or B:

A. "Boxing is a form of violence between plants/minerals, not animals."

or

B. "Punching another person in the face repeatedly, as hard as is humanly possible, in an attempt to knock them unconscious, before they do you, isn't a form of violence."

[*live*&*let*live]

Judging by what i see on the roads, 99% of 'em start out with brain damage

RAPMSL!! Now THAT is funny! AND I AGREE!!

[fiamma]

There is no real concept of 'cruelty', just necessity for most families.

I don't wish to seem pernickety (good word, Cobweb ), but would you say bullfighting is done out of necessity gogs? Can you think of a UK tradition which we could consider analogous in terms of cruelty? (I think they probably have horse-racing in Spain, and factory farming too, so they rule each other out).

Some mediterranean countries may appear outwardly crueler than us but, per head of population, far far more animals will be butchered in the UK!

Do you have any statistics to back that up? Here in the region of Emilia-Romagna where I live, there are more pigs than people...

[*live*&*let*live]

[QUOTE]

Don't condemn a whole country because of one practice.
Much of Spain is semi rural and, as such, animals are seen as something to be 'used' for survival, be it for eggs, milk or meat. There is no real concept of 'cruelty', just necessity for most families.

Oh c'mon Gogs Spain is hardly a country with few resources and hardly struggling such as for example Niger Delta in Nigeria where they are so poor and poverty stricken. They relied on fishing to survive, which I don't agree with but understand, but their water is now so polluted by oil they are struggling to survive. The amount of food that is wasted would feed the world over I am sure, there should be no-one starving.

[cobweb]

Please clarify A or B:

A. "Boxing is a form of violence between plants/minerals, not animals."

or

B. "Punching another person in the face repeatedly, as hard as is humanly possible, in an attempt to knock them unconscious, before they do you, isn't a form of violence."

You seem to be absolutely detrmined to keep this thread off-topic .
I actually don't need to answer your questions as i am perfectly entitled to my own opinions.
Plus i find your questions a little silly.

[fiamma]

You seem to be absolutely detrmined to keep this thread off-topic .
I actually don't need to answer your questions as i am perfectly entitled to my own opinions.
Plus i find your questions a little silly.

LoL Cobweb!!!

[gogs67]

I don't wish to seem pernickety (good word, Cobweb ), but would you say bullfighting is done out of necessity gogs? Can you think of a UK tradition which we could consider analogous in terms of cruelty? (I think they probably have horse-racing in Spain, and factory farming too, so they rule each other out).



Do you have any statistics to back that up? Here in the region of Emilia-Romagna where I live, there are more pigs than people...

I wasn't saying bullfighting was a necessity, far from it in fact!
My point was that as Spain has a far higher rural population than the UK the use of animals for food is far more out in the open and less intensely farmed compared to the UK where everything is mass produced out of sight and shipped to the urban centres.
We shouldn't be so quick to judge a culture because of one barbaric custom!

As for the stats, well, i know that over 2.5 million chickens a day are slaughtered in the UK alone, that's a LOT of animals.


[QUOTE=*live*&*let*live;589626]

Oh c'mon Gogs Spain is hardly a country with few resources and hardly struggling such as for example Niger Delta in Nigeria where they are so poor and poverty stricken. They relied on fishing to survive, which I don't agree with but understand, but their water is now so polluted by oil they are struggling to survive. The amount of food that is wasted would feed the world over I am sure, there should be no-one starving.

We all know the production and distribution of food in the world leaves a lot to be desired but i was really talkin about the iberian peninsula area!

There are areas of Spain where it's pretty close to subsistance living but that's not really my point.
Basically in a rural setting that's not overly mechanised the actual meat consumption per person is far lower than it is in say the UK where the vast majority of people live in an urban environment.
Goats and cows are kept for milk and cheese, chickens for eggs etc and the slaughter of them for food is quite a major thing as they are not easily replaced.
Compare that to here where people will be eating some kind of flesh 3 times a day from a supermarket or fast food outlet. It's a different scale really, but the changes in our farming practices in the last 60 years allow it to happen.

The paradox in Spain with bullfighting is that the Spanish parliament's environmental committee approved resolutions last year that the country comply with the Great Apes Project which "seeks to end the unconscionable treatment of our nearest living relatives by obtaining for non-human great apes the fundamental moral and legal protections of the right to life, the freedom from arbitrary deprivation of liberty, and protection from torture".
The resolutions have majority cross-party support and are likely to enter the statute some time soon, making Spain the first nation to commit to the project.
Pedro Pozas, Great Apes Project's Spanish director, enthused, when it was announced: "This is a historic day in the struggle for animal rights and in defense of our evolutionary comrades, which will doubtless go down in the history of humanity."

[Mahk]

I actually don't need to answer your questions as i am perfectly entitled to my own opinions.
Plus i find your questions a little silly.

Just as I expected: complete evasion on your part to a simple question. It's violence and you know it. I certainly think you are entitled to your pro violence stance, but how a person can support the harming of animals, such as repeatedly punching primates in the face hoping to knock them unconscious for "sport", yet claim they are a vegan eludes me. Animal cruelty is wrong to me; it doesn't matter if the exploited victims are richly compensated or have all their medical needs attended to after the fight.

People who rationalize or justify any what I call "blood sport", be it bull fighting, dog fighting, or human fighting as being important to maintain due to "cultural tradition/heritage" or as a "form of art" are in complete denial as to the fact that animals are being harmed! Humans are animals.



It's funny how this activity is illegal and called "assault and battery" aka "fighting" when outside the ring but step inside and it suddenly becomes "art", to some. Is that red stuff the artist's "paint"?

[Lord Perennialist]

I would ahve to agree with Mahk. Its sick that we are such a violent people that we get pleasure out of violent sports such a bullfighting, boxing, dog fighting, cockfighting, as well as get our jollies from all the deaths in our media and all the violence shown on our tellies and in our movies.

[gogs67]

" are in complete denial as to the fact that animals are being harmed! Humans are animals.

.

Hoi, take this to the thread i posted about boxing earlier!

And , going on your argument above, do you think that bondage sessions between two consenting adults is not vegan then?

[Mahk]

And , going on your argument above, do you think that bondage sessions between two consenting adults is not vegan then?

I don't know much about it but if bondage sessions cause eventual brain damage in 80~90% of participants, as does boxing, then I think it should be illegal just as is sniffing glue.

A better analogy would be should people be allowed to attend functions as spectators watching other stage performers "consensually" torture one another for financial compensation?... Oh wait, isn't that what boxing is?

[BlackCats]

And , going on your argument above, do you think that bondage sessions between two consenting adults is not vegan then?

That is exactly what I was going to say Gogs.

[cobweb]

Mahk, as i say, you are entitled to your opinion, and me to mine.
If you are saying i'm not vegan then fine, i'm not vegan, you really aint going to upset me .
At least 1 or 2 people die each year in the tiny set of islands where i live off Scotland through wreck diving, they consent to do it though, knowing the risks.
Now when Foxes can sign contracts, attend training sessions, and reap the benefits of substantial pay-cheques from their involvement in Fox-hunting (because not all of them actually get caught!) then i will agree that fox-hunting can be compared to Boxing, yes.
Til such times as that, please just respect that i can hold my own opinion, however distasteful that opinion might be to you, and lets get this thread back on-topic.

[Honest_Goodbye]

I don't have strong opinions either way on boxing, but i see it as someone's choice if they want to do it and don't really see anything wrong with that. My dad used to box many many years ago lol.

[wildcatstrike]

A young Spanish man has been gored to death in the traditional running of the bulls in Pamplona, northern Spain.

i honesty couldn't give a shit about that. sorry.

[leedsveg]

Anybody remember when our very own Queen Liz II was struck on the head by a dead bird when she was out with a shooting party? Probably about 15 years ago. (Rumour at the time had it that Liz didn't realise that somebodies shout of 'Duck!' was a vain attempt to get her to protect her bonce!)

leedsveg

[*live*&*let*live]

That is exactly what I was going to say Gogs.

Great minds think alike eh? BC and Gogs......bondage anyone?! :smile:

[Mahk]

Now when Foxes can sign contracts, attend training sessions, and reap the benefits of substantial pay-cheques from their involvement in Fox-hunting (because not all of them actually get caught!) then i will agree that fox-hunting can be compared to Boxing, yes.

So it's OK then to torture animals for entertainment as long as they agree to it because of the financial compensation? There's a word for that. It's called "exploitation" and it is just as immoral as repeatedly punching a dog in the face and stomach with the intent of knocking it unconscious by giving it a concussion or spearing a bull with javelins in its back and watching it bleed to death "for sport", but there's fame and fortune to be had when this is done to humans so I can see why you support this form of barbaric violence against them. How you could furthermore want this done to your own child or family member (if they "chose" it) completely baffles me but I suspect boxing has been so glamorized to you (much as bull fighting has to many Spaniards who support that) so you rationalize the 80~90% chance of permanent brain damage as being "acceptable risk" even though this activity has no value past "entertainment" unlike driving a car or working in a risky occupation like diving.

You would be correct in my assessment of you. People who condone publicly harming animals for entertainment aren't vegan and this topic is entirely relevant to this thread.

[cobweb]

Mahk we've moved this 'discussion' over to the Boxing thread.
You need to take a deep breath and calm down for it matters to me not one little scrap what you think of me...........

[gogs67]

You would be correct in my assessment of you. People who condone publicly harming animals for entertainment aren't vegan and this topic is entirely relevant to this thread.

You usually come over as being quite a well balanced guy as well Mahk!

Because i choose to indulge in a martial art where both I and my opponent are willing participants then i cannot be vegan? And neither can anyone who watches the bout? Or trains with me? Or comes along to watch the training? In fact, as you say, anyone at all who condones it cannot be vegan!


Mental! lol

[Mahk]

it matters to me not one little scrap what you think of me...........

I feel exactly the same about you but illustrating how harming animals by watching them fight for entertainment is immoral and cruel is more pertinent to this thread. Human fighting where they attempt to punch each other in the face to knock the opponent unconscious for entertainment, which you condone, is merely a subset of all animal fighting.

[Kate1978]

Boxing does nothing for me personally, but as someone succinctly put it earlier on in the thread, human animals can consent to taking part in these sports, animals can't.

[Mahk]

Because i choose to indulge in a martial art where both I and my opponent are willing participants then i cannot be vegan?

Should we legalize knife fights too? We could use very short blades and make the eyes "out of bounds" so death in the ring is only as common as it is in boxing.

Any martial art that causes permanent brain damage in 80~90% of professional participants should be banned. That's why karate, judo, jujitsu, and greco roman wresting are perfectly OK; they are statistically quite safe. Notice how the British Medical Association, the American Medical Association, and the Australian Medical Association don't take a stand against any of them, as they do boxing which they unanimously agree should be outright banned. There is an element of risk in all sports, yes, but there isn't a likelihood the participants will become permanently brain damaged or have detached retinas as there is with boxing. That's the difference.

They even named this common form of dementia after "pugilism" (boxing):

"Dementia pugilistica--also called chronic traumatic encephalopathy, pugilistic Parkinson's syndrome, boxer's syndrome, and "punch-drunk" syndrome--is a neurological disorder which affects career boxers and others who receive multiple dazing blows to the head. The condition develops over a period of years, with the average time of onset being about 16 years after the start of a career in boxing.

The condition, which occurs in people who have suffered multiple concussions, commonly manifests as dementia, or declining mental ability, and Parkinsonism, or tremors and lack of coordination. It can also cause unsteady gait, inappropriate behavior, and speech problems."

[gogs67]

[QUOTE]

Should we legalize knife fights too? We could use very short blades and make the eyes "out of bounds" so death in the ring is only as common as it is in boxing.

Any martial art that causes permanent brain damage in 80~90% of professional participants should be banned. That's why karate, judo, jujitsu, and greco roman wresting are perfectly OK; they are statistically quite safe. Notice how the British Medical Association, the American Medical Association, and the Australian Medical Association don't take a stand against any of them, as they do boxing which they unanimously agree should be outright banned. There is an element of risk in all sports, yes, but there isn't a likelihood the participants will become brain damaged or have detached retinas as there is with boxing. That's the difference.

(boxing):

QUOTE]

Ah..........now you are changing the boundries!
It's not the actual harm the (human) animal suffers that bothers you, it's the extent of harm!

[Kate1978]

^ Gogs67 your enjoyment of Mahk baiting is bordering on the inhumane. I question your commitment as a vegan!

[gogs67]

^ Gogs67 your enjoyment of Mahk baiting is bordering on the inhumane. I question your commitment as a vegan!

[Mahk]

Ah..........now you are changing the boundries!
It's not the actual harm the (human) animal suffers that bothers you, it's the extent of harm!

Yes, minor cuts and bruises from karate, judo, jujitsu, and greco roman wresting which heal over time vs permanent brain damage and blindness in the majority of career boxers are very different to me and the British Medical Association, the American Medical Association, and the Australian Medical Association concur.

[Manzana]

illustrating how harming animals by watching them fight for entertainment is immoral and cruel is more pertinent to this thread.

Mahk, honestly, you are hijacking the "Bull gores man to death in Spain" thread and transforming it into "Mahk hates boxing and everyone that does not agree with him is not a vegan" thread...

it makes the stuff in the original thread a bit hard to read with all your boxing pics...

[gogs67]

Yes, minor cuts and bruises from tennis which heal over time vs permanent brain damage and blindness are very different to me and the British Medical Association, the American Medical Association, and the Australian Medical Association concur.

Who mentioned tennis?
(well cob did, but you know what i mean?)

I highlighted the "karate, judo, jujitsu, and greco roman wresting" part. I've seen many permanent disabilities arising from these 'sports' in a lot of people who have been training in them for over 16 years! And yet you would deem them 'vegan'?


Edit: Sorry Manzana, i promised myself i would keep all of this in the other thread, but i kinda lapsed..............sorry! This is my last post here unless it's about bullfighting in Spain!

[fiamma]

^ I couldn't agree more, Manzana. Why not start your own forum, Mahk? "Mahk's Vegan Forum". I can see it up in lights right now. That way you can kick off anyone who doesn't agree with your way of thinking.

[Manzana]

I don't wish to seem pernickety (good word, Cobweb ), but would you say bullfighting is done out of necessity gogs? Can you think of a UK tradition which we could consider analogous in terms of cruelty? (I think they probably have horse-racing in Spain, and factory farming too, so they rule each other out).

Bull fighting is not done out of necessity but neither is slaughtering of animals from factory farms. The bulls in Spain are eaten too just like all those millions of animals eaten in the UK. In fact, throughout their life the bulls enjoy excellent standards of living, in large fields and with excellent food (much better than factory farms and all free range and organic farms that i have ever seen)

It is terrible that a few people in Spain consider "entertaining" to torture an animal to death... it is fairly similar to Fox hunting in terms of torturing an animal to death for entertainment. As far as I know this is a UK tradition (even now they keep doing it illegally).

On top of that, fox hunting tortures a wild animal to death... bull fighting kills an animal bred for this purpose.

I think both are equally as wrong and I do not see how one is more cruel than the other. The brits and the spanish have different cultures and their cruelty manifests itself in different forms... but it is the same.

[fiamma]

^ But it seems to me Manzana that you're somehow justifying the use of bulls just because they "had a happy life before they died" - it's the same argument meat-eaters use in favour of free-range meat.

[Mahk]

Who mentioned tennis?

Fixed.
---

[Manzana]

^ But it seems to me Manzana that you're somehow justifying the use of bulls just because they "had a happy life before they died" - it's the same argument meat-eaters use in favour of free-range meat.

No Fiamma, I was not trying to do that. I was trying to say that it is difficult to compare acts of cruelty.

Bull fighting may seem awful to you because of the Fiesta atmosphere and "glamour" that they try to build around it.

In my view, it is not different from pompous brits on horses with their pedigree dogs chasing a fox till is mutilated to death...

Just my view though...

[leedsveg]

Mental! lol

Thought you might be interested in what the Advertising Standards Authority said about the ill-considered use of the word 'mental' in an advert. leedsveg

"The ASA considered that listeners would infer that the word 'mental' referred to those potential customers who chose not to avail of the services offered by Bognor Motors and that those customers were therefore not of full mental capacity. We understood CPT's concern that 'mental' was a pejorative term habitually used to demean or ridicule people with mental health problems and considered that was the context in which it would be understood in this ad. We considered that the reference was likely to be seen to denigrate those with mental health problems and concluded that the ad could cause serious offence to some listeners."

[Mahk]

^ I couldn't agree more, Manzana. Why not start your own forum, Mahk? "Mahk's Vegan Forum". I can see it up in lights right now. That way you can kick off anyone who doesn't agree with your way of thinking.

I'm just stating my case. I think all animal fighting which causes death or permanent injury is wrong, be it bull, dog, or primate. If some people think we should make an exception for humans they certainly have the right to feel that way but I'm allowed to say I think it's a double standard and in my eyes, not vegan.
---

Sorry to everyone who feels I've hijacked the thread. To me all forms of animal fighting which cause permanent harm or death are analogous, so from my perspective bulls, foxes, dogs, and humans are all the same so it didn't feel off topic to me..

[gogs67]

Thought you might be interested in what the Advertising Standards Authority said about the ill-considered use of the word 'mental' in an advert. leedsveg

."

I remember seeing that last week and it's a fair enough complaint really in the context used!

[*live*&*let*live]

In fact, throughout their life the bulls enjoy excellent standards of living, in large fields and with excellent food (much better than factory farms and all free range and organic farms that i have ever seen)

Excellent standards of living, large fields and excellent food! Oh, but then they are killed barbarically. I really don't understand your position or post! ALL animal cruelty is WRONG regardless if some think one is more barbaric than another, but IMO how can you attempt to justify it by saying that they have a decent life before they are terrified and stabbed to death? Would it make it ok if we looked after our elderly relatives but then, in the final years, killed them off? But it was ok because we fed them, kept them warm and paid their bills beforehand?! If we are all animals then it equates to the same thing IMO.

On top of that, fox hunting tortures a wild animal to death... bull fighting kills an animal bred for this purpose.

ANIMALS ARE BRED FOR THIS PURPOSE TO EAT!! I can honestly say that is the most unveganly thing a vegan can say! So if something is bred for a specific purpose then that's ok? Excuse me, but why are you vegan then? Does this excuse the puppy mills, as they are bred for purpose of financial gain? Lab animals are often bred for this purpose does that excuse that? Of course not!! I must say I am VERY surprised by your post.

I think both are equally as wrong and I do not see how one is more cruel than the other. The brits and the spanish have different cultures and their cruelty manifests itself in different forms... but it is the same.

Yes it is the same which is why I don't understand your earlier part of the post.

[Manzana]

L&ll, my point I think was clear: factory farms are cruel, bull fighting is cruel, fox hunting is cruel. Please read my previous post again and you will see that at no point I say bull fighting is ok.

It seems to me that the cruelty of bull fighting is put on a different league than that of factory farms or fox hunting on the basis of making such a "show/fiesta" out of it. I do not think this is an appropriate judgement. Hence why I said, to me it is all the same: cruelty, just in different forms and shapes.

At no point in my post I have excused bull fighting, I am just pointing out the reality of things: bulls live in good conditions (while they are allowed to live), they are used for food (as well as "entertainment") and they are not "native wild live" being hunted in their habitat for no purpose but "entertainment" (as in with fox hunting)

I do not understand omnis that think bull fighting is wrong but eating meat is ok.

Maybe a bit of empathy would help...

Would you rather live 3 years of happy life and then be tortured for 45 minutes in front of a crowd that is then going to eat you OR live your 3 years of live in a box not big enough for you to turn around and get impregnated all the time, give birth and not be able to touch your children and then put in a lorry and killed "quickly and humanely"?

To me both are pretty dreadful scenarios...

[BlackCats]

It seems to me that the cruelty of bull fighting is put on a different league than that of factory farms or fox hunting on the basis of making such a "show/fiesta" out of it. I do not think this is an appropriate judgement. Hence why I said, to me it is all the same: cruelty, just in different forms and shapes.

I do not understand omnis that think bull fighting is wrong but eating meat is ok.

I can see what you mean Manzana. I think it has a lot to do with how the cruelty of factory farming is hidden to the public and how "sports" like bull fighting and fox hunting are more visible.

Most omnis I know think that wearing fur is cruel but have no qualms about wearing leather. People seem to have more compassion for wild animals than farm animals. There are probably some practices that seem more horribly cruel to us but we know that all animal exploitation is ethically wrong but obviously most people don't share our view.

[gogs67]

I can see what you mean Manzana. I think it has a lot to do with how the cruelty of factory farming is hidden to the public and how "sports" like bull fighting and fox hunting are more visible.

.

That was what i was saying earlier.
Our country has been very good at managing to hide it's animal cruelty behind closed doors thus making it easier for us to criticise other countries where it may be more in the open, Spain being one!

[BlackCats]

Our country has been very good at managing to hide it's animal cruelty behind closed doors thus making it easier for us to criticise other countries where it may be more in the open, Spain being one!

I agree. We are very hypocritical and it is much easier for us to think that we are more civilised and welfare conscious than other countries/ cultures. Maybe meat and dairy should be sold with the photos of the animals in their factory farm living conditions on the front then people might realise the extent of the animal cruelty in this country.

[harpy]

Yes unfortunately a lot of British people have an "out of sight, out of mind" attitude to animal cruelty, and probably kid themselves that it's not happening because they can't see it.

I suppose not liking to see cruelty could be a step in the right direction compared with not minding one way or the other, though. I mean, if you don't even care about it when you can see it, you're even less likely to do anything about it?

[*live*&*let*live]

Hi Mananza

The reason I commented on your post the way that I did was because it did read IMO that you were somehow 'justifying' not agreeing with the bulls being killed as they had a happy and healthy life prior to being killed and that they were bred for the purpose as opposed to a fox being a wild animal.
IMO I do not see the point in mentioning the 'happy' life they may or may not have had, or the relevance of being 'bred for this purpose'. If you agree all animal cruelty is wrong it didn't need this point of information IMO. That is what I meant by my initial post. :smile:

[leedsveg]

[QUOTE=gogs67;589965]

Ah..........now you are changing the boundries!
It's not the actual harm the (human) animal suffers that bothers you, it's the extent of harm!

Slightly off-topic I know but many years ago, I had to stop playing Scrabble because the dictionary kept falling on my foot. So it's not just boxing and marital arts........

lv

[harpy]

marital arts

[gogs67]

A good 7 letter anagram!!