Bull gores man to death in Spain

[fiamma]

Um, gosh, what a surprise. Man can be really thick sometimes. I'm not usually one to revel in the misfortune of another, but this guy had it coming to him - natural selection it's called, I think.And people always seem so surprised when people die doing these things


Bull 1 - Man O


Yay for the bulls, terrible they have to go through this year after year




Source: www.bbc.co.uk

A young Spanish man has been gored to death in the traditional running of the bulls in Pamplona, northern Spain.
The 27-year-old was gored in the neck on Friday, during the fourth bull run of the week-long San Fermin festival.
Daniel Jimeno Romero, from near Madrid, had emergency surgery in hospital but died of his injuries. Earlier reports had described the dead man as British.
Three other runners were injured by the rogue bull on Friday. The last fatal goring at the festival was in 1995.



A light-brown bull called Capuchino ploughed into a group of runners and spectators on Friday after getting separated from the rest of the group.
The wounds were mortally grave. We couldn't do anything to save his life


Surgeon Esther Vila
Navarra hospital

The BBC's Steve Kingstone in Madrid says the running of the bulls - opposed by animal rights activists - is a defining event in Spanish culture.
Popularised by the writer Ernest Hemingway, it attracts thousands of foreign tourists each year - many of whom choose to take part.

Hit with sticks
Friday's incident happened near the bullring, which marks the end of the 850-metre (2,805ft) run through the streets of Pamplona.
Television footage showed runners fleeing a rogue bull and jumping over the wooden barriers in one of the cobbled streets.
The bull tossed one man into the air and then gored him as he lay curled on the ground.
Fellow runners tried to beat the bull off by pulling on its tail and hitting it with sticks. The bull swerved right and left and even began running back the wrong way.
Mr Jimeno Romero, from Alcala de Henares, was said to have been gored in the lungs as well as the neck.
Emergency medics treated him at the scene before he was taken to Navarra hospital, where he died.
"The wounds were mortally grave. We couldn't do anything to save his life," surgeon Esther Vila told a news conference.
Fifteen people have died from injuries at the Pamplona fiesta since 1922.
Before Friday's fatality two North Americans were gored to death - in 1980 and 1995 - and a veteran Spanish bull-runner died after a fall in 2003, Spain's El Mundo news website reports.
The festival was made world-famous by Hemingway's 1926 novel The Sun Also Rises.
Clad in white, with a red kerchief, tourists and Spaniards sprint ahead of the charging bulls, which face matadors in the bullring later in the day.

[JC]

I hate bullfights, just the thought of them makes me feel physically sick and ashamed to be human. And whilst any death is sad, a death that comes about as a result of wanting to enjoy a sordid event like this is surely a case of getting your comeuppance.

[veganwitch]

What goes around , comes around. Gotta love karma.

[*live*&*let*live]

Quite simply, WHAT DO THEY EXPECT? A CUP OF TEA WITH THE BULL? Absolute evil, nasty, selfish, cruel inhumane b@stards. And of course they will blame the bull! I presume they kill them do they after this sick spectacle?

[Lord Perennialist]

l&ll, the bulls always die after bullfights. The only reason the trabador has a chance in front of those bulls is because before the fight they cruelly wound the bull by slicing its underside open and often tie a rope tightly around its testicles, to make it mad. Bullfighters usually win by wearing the bull out, who all the time is losing massive amounts of blood from his wound. Bullfights always end in the bullfighter killing the bull... it is quite sad, atrociously cruel, and makes me angry .

[*live*&*let*live]

HI LP, I know they die in the ring but out in the streets too? When I became vegetarian when I was 13 I first read about bullfighting and heard that they smear vaseline in their eyes, blunt their horns and injure the poor things in other ways. This has always stayed with me.......

[Risker]

They don't die in the streets but the end of the run is the bullring where they'll be killed.

[Lord Perennialist]

Bullfighting is cruel no matter if they kill the bull or not, but the spaniards are notoriously cruel. Portuguese bullfighting is much different... killing the bulls is illegal in Portugal:

History

The Portuguese now practice a type of bullfighting which is in many respects different from its original form. An idea of the original form can be constructed from the Spanish style.
In 1836, due to the action of queen Mary II, Portugal deemed the killing of bulls to be immoral, and they passed a law banning the public killing of bulls. However, this law only lasted for a year; the next time a law was passed prohibiting the public killing of bulls was in 1928.
The Portuguese Parliament made a specific bullfight to the death (Barrancos) legal again in 2002, saying that it has been a social tradition (a rare example of custom with law relevancy in the portuguese legal system). Previously when the Portuguese government deemed it illegal to kill the bulls, there was a great social outcry to re-legalize this specific pratic. In contrast, there was again a social outcry in 2002, but this time to keep killing the bulls in the fights illegal.

At least in Portuguese bullfighting the bull is given a fighting chance. Eight men called forcados challenge him directly without any form of protection, making them equal. Forcados usually have an inordant amount of cracked and broken ribs in their lives! It's still cruel, but their horns aren't blunted (cloth caps are put on top of them) and they aren't killed.

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[Mahk]

Bullfighting is cruel no matter if they kill the bull or not, but the spaniards are notoriously cruel. Portuguese bullfighting is much different... killing the bulls is illegal in Portugal

"The bull is usually killed, away from the audience's sight, by a professional butcher."

-wikipedia

After being speared with three to four "bandarilhas" (small javelins) in the back, I'd think if given a choice many bulls would opt for death. Imagine, everyone, the pain if you had three or four knives stuck so deeply in your back you couldn't shake them off and had no means of getting them removed. I think I'd choose death.

[Lord Perennialist]

Oh... I didn't see that part... I agree with you about those knives in your flesh! Ouch! Why the f*ck do people think they have the right to do this to other animals? Sometimes I find myself falling into pragmatism, falling into the lesser of two evils kind of thinking. Well humans are being cruel to animals... but at least they aren't being as cruel as they could. I really have no faith for humans when it comes to treating animals kindly.

[Mahk]

All fighting is wrong, regardless if it is man against man, man against beast, or beast against beast. Watching beings being hurt as a spectator sport is just plain wrong and barbaric, ala the Roman gladiators. The only acceptable fighting is faux fighting where no one gets hurt such as fencing or real Olympic style Grecco Roman wrestling where injuries are rare.

Heavyweight boxing (without head gear) is not an exception, however. 90% of professional heavyweight boxers will experience brain damage and/or detached retinas due to repeated head trauma within their lifetimes. The American Medical Association agrees with me that it should be banned [or make head gear just as mandatory as gloves are today].

I live by the moral compass that if I wouldn't want my spouse, child, or parent participating in a certain activity due to danger, then I have no right to be a spectator at such events where others outside my family are being exploited instead. Just because some people will seemingly want to be publicly tortured for fame, money, or machismo reasons doesn't make it acceptable either. Animal cuelty is wrong, and yes, primates such as the species homo sapien are included, DUH!

[Justin]

not very sporting at all

[Prawnil]

the spaniards are notoriously cruel.

What?
Sorry to come & pick up on just one thing that is off topic, but I'm quite sure eventually someone would have done, as surely could have been expected.

[Risker]

The only acceptable fighting is faux fighting where no one gets hurt such as fencing or real Olympic style Grecco Roman wrestling where injuries are rare.

Or WWE.

Heavyweight boxing (without head gear) is not an exception, however. 90% of professional heavyweight boxers will experience brain damage and/or detached retinas due to repeated head trauma within their lifetimes. The American Medical Association agrees with me that it should be banned [or make head gear just as mandatory as gloves are today].

I think banning boxing gloves would be a better improvement than making head gear mandatory.

[*live*&*let*live]

Risker If you ban boxing gloves would that not mean that people were bare knuckle fighting though?! OMG that is seriously nasty! OUCH!

Re the bulls, I don't think that ANY of it is acceptable, whether they are killed or not, whether one way is deemed more humane than the other, to torture, terrorise or frighten the living cr@p out of anyone or anything is cruel, barbaric and simply WRONG!

[Kate1978]

Bullfighting is cruel no matter if they kill the bull or not, but the spaniards are notoriously cruel.

But as we all know, Spaniards do not have the monopoly on mistreating animals in the name of entertainment.

[*live*&*let*live]

^ Oh I know Kate, many countries are barbaric, although not saying all individuals are just because they come from that country. And not just for entertainment either are they? FOOD! IS EVERY COUNTRY and I constantly think of the dogs and cats that are killed in Asian countries, but that doesn't make all inhabitants of those countries evil, just the one's that commit the atrocities. Prawn, I am sure that is what LP meant, and not that all Spaniards are cruel! ^

Hi Mahk - Do you not think that Wikipedia is often very wrong? You normally have much better references than Wiki!
Not that I am doubting your information on this subject, just Wiki in general.

[Lord Perennialist]

Sorry bout the Spaniards are cruel comment. I was merely trying to say that Spanish bullfighting seems an atypical form of cruelty inflicted on an animals purely for entertainment. While other countries have their forms of cruelty like hen fighting, dog fighting, etc... those are usually illegal in the countries where they take place. Spanish bullfighting then is a legalized form of animal cruelty for entertainment purposes. I wasn't saying that the Spanish are any more cruel than any other people in this regard. God knows people from the U.S. can be just as cruel and even crueler.

[*live*&*let*live]

Don't worry LP I am sure they understand what you meant! Well, I knew you weren't being judgemental or assuming all Spanish people are cruel!

[Prawnil]

What makes cats and dogs special cases, though? (I'm honestly not just trying to be a pain in the arse, it just seems odd to differentiate countries based on the list of species that are killed for food in them. I hope you get what I mean.) Dogs & cats are still routinely used in wealthy nations' labs. Pick a european country (or the US, Russia, China, Japan...) - it'll be likely to have many dogs & cats in its laboratories, especially cats and monkeys in neuroscientific/vision research (in a sense, a welfare sense, arguably the worst kind) & dogs in toxicological labs etc.

LP, I didn't actually think what you said was deliberately racist or anything. I suppose I was just trying to prompt some kind of explanation. I hope that wasn't rude.

To hell with harmful tradition.

[Risker]

Risker If you ban boxing gloves would that not mean that people were bare knuckle fighting though?! OMG that is seriously nasty! OUCH!

More damage is done when gloves are used than when they aren't.

[cobweb]

I know it's a sweeping generalisation (and a bit racist) to say that 'Spaniards are cruel' but i have to say that is the precise impression i have always come away with after visiting my family out there .

Dead dogs by the roadside, a donkey flogged to death in the middle of the road, my parents' neighbour's dog chained in the full sun til it collapsed and died........

I also remember my brother's Spainish girlfriend asking me "you are vegetarian? - WHAT FOR?"..........

[*live*&*let*live]

What makes cats and dogs special cases, though? (I'm honestly not just trying to be a pain in the arse, it just seems odd to differentiate countries based on the list of species that are killed for food in them. I hope you get what I mean.) Dogs & cats are still routinely used in wealthy nations' labs. Pick a european country (or the US, Russia, China, Japan...) - it'll be likely to have many dogs & cats in its laboratories, especially cats and monkeys in neuroscientific/vision research (in a sense, a welfare sense, arguably the worst kind) & dogs in toxicological labs etc.

LP, I didn't actually think what you said was deliberately racist or anything. I suppose I was just trying to prompt some kind of explanation. I hope that wasn't rude.

To hell with harmful tradition.

Oh no, I wasn't being racist at all. I hope to God that I didn't come across as racist!!! I was simply attempting to illustrate a point to defend LP I s'pose. :smile: I was saying that I wouldn't class ALL inhabitants of a country that is specifically cruel to an animal, evil. That's why I said every country with regards to the meat industry in general. We are all not evil are we? We shouldn't be banded in with that stereotype as we don't contribute to that. Maybe I wasn't clear in my first post.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments about the labs it is on a parallel with my statement on all countries are guilty with regards to the meat industry. Dogs and cats were simply the first thing that came into my head as an example, because these animals are classed as domesticated, I think it is probably more shocking. I have seen pictures of what I am not willing to describe on a forum where young eyes may read and that barbarity has stuck in my mind since the age of about 10.
I could say France for killing horses and frogs. Killing shark's for soup is that Japan? that's another image that haunts me simply cutting off the fins and leaving them to drown in a world of pain..... the list is endless. But honestly that example, was all it was, an example.

And no I don't think you were being rude! :smile: That's the great thing about a forum, debating and I would ALWAYS ask someone for clarity from me if I had anyone in any doubt my intentions. As I was discussing with LP on another thread, it is difficult to understand or gauge people sometimes when not face to face. As we come to know one another with regular posts I think you get a measure of that person and know their intent.

I hope I have cleared up my intent with this post, and sorry to ramble on but I wanted to make things clear. If I have offended anyone, unintentional though it was I would much prefer them to ask me!

[Lord Perennialist]

LP, I didn't actually think what you said was deliberately racist or anything. I suppose I was just trying to prompt some kind of explanation. I hope that wasn't rude.

To hell with harmful tradition.

No problem, Prawnil I actually think its good to call people on their generalizations. I do it too easily and I know lots of other people that are fond of making sweeping generalizations. But we have to be careful when talking about other people's traditions, or we'll end up making an unfortunate misplaced comment like I just did

To hell with harmful traditions indeed! I like that, I think I might use it if you don't mind. Its true, many people are so tied to traditions that they can't even get away from them even though they know their traditions are causing untold of amounts of harm. Its like the automobile here in the U.S. Everybody knows they are polluting the planet, but nobody is willing to give them up.

[Manzana]

Look cobweb and others, I am Spanish and I am a bit tired of this crap of "spaniards are cruel"...

Most people in the UK eat meat and drink milk and that does not come from "love and affection to animals"... (even though many farmers will still claim that they love their animals)

It is shameful that they have bullfights in Spain but it is equally shameful that we are allowed to eat meat because it tastes good.

Many people in this country still go Fox hunting and it was only made ilegal a few years ago. Those bulls are (regretably) raised for entertainment (and torture) purposes... the foxes on the other hand are native wild life! what is worse???? do we have to make these comparisons?

wales has also made legal a Badger cull... Are the welsh people cruel?!

C'mon guys... get a grip!

[cobweb]

you are right, Manzana, and i did say its a sweeping generalisation.
It's just differing levels of what is 'publicly' acceptable in certain countries i suppose.
I totally agree that most British people are huge hypocrits, they are outraged over a Bull fight, for example, whilst tucking into their steak and chips .

[*live*&*let*live]

More damage is done when gloves are used than when they aren't.

Really? Crikey I didn't know that, perhaps the damage just looks worse. I hate boxing in any form anyway. I really don't 'get it', senseless beating one another around the head and torso. You can cause so much damage. Not nice IMO :smile:

[*live*&*let*live]

Look cobweb and others, I am Spanish and I am a bit tired of this crap of "spaniards are cruel"...

Most people in the UK eat meat and drink milk and that does not come from "love and affection to animals"... (even though many farmers will still claim that they love their animals)

It is shameful that they have bullfights in Spain but it is equally shameful that we are allowed to eat meat because it tastes good.

Many people in this country still go Fox hunting and it was only made ilegal a few years ago. Those bulls are (regretably) raised for entertainment (and torture) purposes... the foxes on the other hand are native wild life! what is worse???? do we have to make these comparisons?

wales has also made legal a Badger cull... Are the welsh people cruel?!

C'mon guys... get a grip!

This is the point I was attempting to get across in my posts. I hope that was the point you got and didn't think I was making generalisations? This was NOT my intention, quite the opposite in fact. :smile:

[Manzana]

L&ll, I was just trying to reinforce the point... Not offended.

[Kate1978]

I think if we are going to go there, then every culture/nationality/religion will have some group or other who partake in some kind of cruel sport or entertainment. With perhaps the exception of the Jains and some Hindus and Buddhists.

Hunting, fishing, rodeos, circuses with animals, zoos, bullfighting, dog fighting, cock fighting, horse racing, hare coursing, greyhound racing... the list goes on.

For the record, last year in Alicante, a Spanish person described the bullfighting museum to me as "a museum of cruelty against animals and a national disgrace".

[Mahk]

My understanding is the majority of Spanish school children polled, nearly three quarters, say they oppose bull fighting. The problem is as people grow older and become adults they also become more conservative and supportive of "traditions". This "But it's part of our national heritage!" argument the bull fighting industry clings to is what keeps it alive. That and tourism. Tourists make up a large segment of the audience, probably saying to themselves, "Let's go see this bizarre ritual they are gong to perform anyways." They don't understand that by being a paying spectator they are responsible for the animals torture and death.
---

More damage is done when gloves are used than when they aren't.

That intuitivly seems to be illogical and my sources say otherwise.
Padded boxing gloves were invented because contestants were being killed in the ring otherwise. Sometimes hard to justify I suppose.

"Jack Broughton, who was a British boxing champ in the early 1700s, is widely considered to be the inventor of the modern padded boxing gloves. However, these padded leather boxing gloves of the 1600s and 1700s were only used in practice and for informal boxing matches. The major public boxing matches were still bare-knuckle events.

But people were dying in these bare-knuckle matches, so something had to be done..."

Link.

[Honest_Goodbye]

I was talking to a vegan lady from Spain last year. She told me that it's hard being vegan there, and that she wanted to move because she saw cruelty everywhere. Obviously, not everyone there feels the same, but she said that at schools the kids are taught that bulls do not feel pain.

Just to add, bull fighting is not only cruel to the bulls, but also the horses. I met someone who has a rescue horse, orginally from Spain. They found out that she was used for bull fighting before being sent to the meat market. They had cut her vocal chords so she wouldn't make a noise while being used for bull fighting.

But as people have said, things really aren't that much better for animals in the UK

[Risker]

That intuitivly seems to be illogical and my sources say otherwise.

That source is a forum post, this one however is from the British Medical Association.

Gloves are designed to protect the fists of the wearer and do nothing to prevent
brain injury unless they are so large as to be unwieldy. Indeed, the bare fist prize
fighters of the past were able to sustain very long matches because the force of the punches was less than in modern times.

[Mahk]

"The British Medical Association, American Medical Association and Australian Medical Association all have standing policies that call for the complete banning of the sport."

"As of December, 2006, more than 1,300 boxers have died as a result of fighting injuries [source: Journal of Combative Sport].

Harder to quantify are the fighters whose lives have been altered when their brains deteriorate after they retire. [think Mohamed Ali] There is enough medical evidence to support the claim that boxing leads to long-term brain damage [source: Science Daily].

Link

[Mahk]

That source is a forum post, this one however is from the British Medical Association.

"Gloves are designed to protect the fists of the wearer and do nothing to prevent
brain injury.."

I agree they are largely ineffective in successfully preventing brain injury, true, but to say that the padding has zero effect on the impact of the blow to the recipient seems preposterous. Do you similarly contend that headgear, mandatory in Olympic boxing I might add, is exclusively to "protect the knuckles of the fist of the puncher only"?!

Headgear [just in case some might not know what I mean]:

[Risker]

It was discussed on a TV show here called QI

When wearing boxing gloves, it is much easier to kill your opponent. In bear-knuckle boxing, people would always aim for the chest, stomach and arms, because the chin was too dangerous. The chances are that you would hurt yourself badly if you attacked there. Only two people have been recorded as dying in bear-knuckle boxing in over 150 years. When boxing gloves were brought in, this protected the hands so people could go for the jaw and thus kill people more easily. Four Americans die of boxing related injuries every year. British boxer and former world middleweight champion Alan Minter once said: "Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing, but none of them serious."

http://www.comedy.org.uk/guide/tv/qi/episodes/6/4/

[Mahk]

"Only two people have been recorded as dying in bear-knuckle boxing in over 150 years."

Because they almost never struck the head/face back then, it being too risky to the fist it would seem. That does seem more logical to me now.

[kriz]

I feel that people who eat meat and dairy whilst treating their pets well and protest against bullfighting, whaling etc. are maybe on their way to a less cruelty-free life... or at least they're doing SOMETHING good for animals. I don't necessarily see them as hypocrites. The big problem I have is with the ones that don't give hoot about ANY animal related issues.

[*live*&*let*live]

L&ll, I was just trying to reinforce the point... Not offended.

Phew thanks!

[*live*&*let*live]

I still don't agree with boxing, whatever way is 'safer', however I thought that they, whichever way they fight, are only allowed to punch above the belt. In this case if it's bare knuckle OR with gloves they do hit the face, and can cause damage, like Makh said poor Mohammed Ali. Cage fighting you can hit anywhere, elbow and kick! This is way off topic and so I am going to stop debating boxing now! :smile:

[Lord Perennialist]

Yeah... its interesting how this thread went from the running of the bulls to cruel spaniards to boxing...

[BlackCats]

Bull fighting is disgusting and it angers me to even think it still is allowed. I agree that every country has it's dark side concerning cruelty to animals. I hate it when I read something saying "Britain is a nation of animal lovers" what a joke!

(I know it is off topic but I personally don't have a problem with boxing, it is completely consensual. I know someone who is a cage fighter. I wouldn't compare it to bull fighting or fox hunting as the animal obviously can never give consent.)

[Festered]

Is it true that the 'nation of animal lovers' status Brits have comes primarily from the fact we have 24 hour vets?

[cobweb]

I enjoy watching Boxing, which, according to some people, makes me un-vegan . I certainly would not enjoy seeing animals being made to fight, or Bull 'fights' though. Boxing is an art form.

I think that the fallacy about Britain being a nation of animal lovers is because so many of us have 'treasured' pets that live in the house, and i think we have a high level of 'pet' rescue and good veterinary care here. Also English/British people have a tradition of 'saving' animals in foreign lands. I suppose it would be more accurate to say that Britain is a nation of 'selective pet lovers'.

[fiamma]

I don't think Britain has the level of organised animal cruelty that some other countries do. It is also pretty tolerant towards dog owners compared with Italy, for example; so many things are prohibited here that aren't in the UK.

[Mahk]

I enjoy watching Boxing, which, according to some people, makes me un-vegan . ... Boxing is an art form.

Bull fighters often refer to what they do as "art" as well. Some serial killers too, I believe.

Out of curiosity, would you also enjoy seeing a member of your own family punched in the face repeatedly and potentially knocked unconscious for entertainment purposes, as long as it was done "artistically" and they were financially compensated? Or do you have a double standard that it's perfectly fine as long as the participants aren't members of your own immediate family?

I certainly would not enjoy seeing animals being made to fight

So what are humans then? Plants? Well after a life long career of enduring legally sanctioned assault and battery, the repeated head blows causing head trauma and permanent brain damage, I guess one could say boxers are indeed often turned into "vegetables" (like Ali), but heck, they chose to do it, there's a lot of money to be made, and the world needs "art".
---

In case some of you may think Ali is an anomoly, let me set you straight:

"The American Association of Neurological Surgeons say that 90% of boxers sustain a brain injury."

Source

Even people entrenched in the boxing industry, like legendary sports announcer Howard Cosell, can have an epiphany and suddenly change their views:

Criticism of boxing

Cosell denounced professional boxing in a November 26, 1982 bout between Larry Holmes and a clearly out-matched Randall "Tex" Cobb at the Astrodome. The fight was held two weeks after the fatal fight between Ray Mancini and Duk Koo Kim, and Cosell famously asked the rhetorical question,

“ I wonder if that referee (Steve Crosson) is [conducting] an advertisement for the abolition of the very sport that he is a part of? ”

Richard Green, who officiated the fatal Mancini-Kim fight two weeks earlier and was the reason for Cosell's concern, committed suicide less than a year after Cosell's remark on July 1, 1983.

Source.

[cobweb]

If any of my family WANTED to box and were happy to do so, professionally, with training, and potentially earning money for doing so, then of course i would be happy for them .

I desperately wanted to box myself when i was young, and in fact my dad used to box as an amateur (he has rather decent left hook which i can personally testify to ).

As usual you are being pernickity, Mahk, i think most people would understand the difference between what i meant with 'animals' and 'humans'.

I hold my own opinions and have followed professional boxing since i was knee high to a Grasshopper so quoting 'critcism' of Boxing won't do a lot to sway me.

Cars are extremely dangerous (potentially) and i also choose to travel in one on most days.

I should have said that Boxing is in my opinion an art form - and that the object of a Boxing match is not the death of either participant, unlike the unwilling victims involved in 'bloodsports' and serial killings .

[Mahk]

Cobweb, is boxing not a form of violence between animals? Are you pro-violence as long as there is money to be made and it's done "artistically"?

[Mahk]

I hold my own opinions and have followed professional boxing since i was knee high to a Grasshopper so quoting 'critcism' of Boxing won't do a lot to sway me.

Good to see you keep an open mind about it.

[Mahk]

Cars are extremely dangerous (potentially) and i also choose to travel in one on most days.

Do 90% of people who use cars end up with brain damage, though?