Bull gores man to death in Spain

[Mahk]

Slightly off-topic I know but many years ago, I had to stop playing Scrabble because the dictionary kept falling on my foot. So it's not just boxing and marital arts........

lv

Making light of the fact that statistically 80~90% of career boxers, like Ali, suffer from irreparable, permanent brain damage and dementia by their retirement, just to meet the greedy demands of a blood thirsty entertainment industry which steadfastly refuses to accept head gear (as is mandatory in Olympic boxing) because it greatly minimizes the desired head trauma and knockouts (concussions), is no laughing matter. This is not true of any other martial art [except the variant kick boxing] so please don't lump them all together. I found that belittling joke offensive and insulting to the victims and their families.
---

Yes unfortunately a lot of British people have an "out of sight, out of mind" attitude to animal cruelty, and probably kid themselves that it's not happening because they can't see it.

That's exactly what's going on with the retired boxers community, the majority of which are now suffering from brain damage, detached retinas, and dementia all due to being repeatedly punched if the face for years; most are "out of sight, out of mind".

All animal fighting which causes permanent injury or death is wrong, IMO, even if there is a steady supply of "willing" victims for the promoters to exploit for profit and greed, but I seem to be in the minority here that the primate homo sapien should be included with bulls, dogs, etc, so I'm leaving this thread with a final quote from a medical expert which summarizes my position and then I'm gone [unanimous chorus, "Hurray!"]:

"Boxing is unique among sports in that injuring an opponent is an explicit goal: damaging the brain, via knockout, is by definition the pinnacle of accomplishment. This central fact - and the brain damage to which it often leads - has prompted medical organizations around the world, including the American Academy of Neurology and the American Medical Association, to call for the abolition of boxing. In 1983, the editor of the Journal of the American Medical Association called the sport an obscenity that should not be sanctioned by any civilized society."

Source.

[fiamma]

The difference between the primate homo sapien and bulls, dogs and so forth, is that the former can choose whether or not to participate. I do see your point; Mahk, but am a bit on the fence as regards the banning of boxing.

How about getting the thread back on topic?

[leedsveg]

Yes, minor cuts and bruises from karate, judo, jujitsu, and greco roman wresting which heal over time vs permanent brain damage and blindness in the majority of career boxers are very different to me and the British Medical Association, the American Medical Association, and the Australian Medical Association concur.

[QUOTE=gogs67;589965]

Ah..........now you are changing the boundries!
It's not the actual harm the (human) animal suffers that bothers you, it's the extent of harm!

Making light of the fact that statistically 80~90% of career boxers, like Ali, suffer from irreparable, permanent brain damage and dementia by their retirement, just to meet the greedy demands of a blood thirsty entertainment industry which steadfastly refuses to accept head gear (as is mandatory in Olympic boxing) because it greatly minimizes the desired head trauma and knockouts (concussions), is no laughing matter. This is not true of any other martial art [except the variant kick boxing] so please don't lump them all together. I found that belittling joke offensive and insulting to the victims and their families.
Source.

Hi Mahk

I'm not laughing at the injuries caused to boxers so an apology is not needed. What I am laughing at is the idea of attempting to qualify whether a sport is vegan or not by the extent of injuries sustained when taking part in that sport. Two of the sports mentioned in this thread are judo and tennis. Judo? Tennis?! My posting was an attempt to say, if we go down this road, where would it end? Sorry this went over your head.

Hope this makes it clear and you take care when you get off that high horse.

leedsveg

[wildcatstrike]

This thread is so boring now - can we shut up about BOXING!? Start a new thread already...

[Manzana]

Hi Mananza

The reason I commented on your post the way that I did was because it did read IMO that you were somehow 'justifying' not agreeing with the bulls being killed as they had a happy and healthy life prior to being killed and that they were bred for the purpose as opposed to a fox being a wild animal.
IMO I do not see the point in mentioning the 'happy' life they may or may not have had, or the relevance of being 'bred for this purpose'. If you agree all animal cruelty is wrong it didn't need this point of information IMO. That is what I meant by my initial post. :smile:

I dont think mentioning that they have good living conditions is justifying anything.

I was trying to compare bull fighting to factory farming and fox hunting since Fiamma previously had posted a question saying "is there anything similar in the UK?"

It is a fact that they have much better living conditions that most animals (including probably many pets). I dont think that justifies killing them but at the same time, I cannot see how the way they are killed is more horrific than spending life in a factory farm or being hunted to death by a pack of dogs.

[*live*&*let*live]

^ Truce ^ :smile:

[Shrapnel]

A good 7 letter anagram!!

I thought an anagram for "martial arts" was "Rats ram Lita" or "Trial tars Ma" =p

[Shrapnel]

There was some interesting discussion about boxing and combat sports being vegan, but I commented on that thread instead of this one. In short though, I feel fighting sports (or any sports that can involve injury) are different from bull or dog fighting in that the human competitors have choice and consent (which also makes the sports different from simple assault and battery).

[Mahk]

In short though, I feel fighting sports (or any sports that can involve injury) are different from bull or dog fighting in that the human competitors have choice and consent.

Given the choice, (some) humans would choose to buy and own assault rifles, machine guns, high powered fireworks/explosives, switch blades, LSD, "angel dust"/PCP, wild animals for home use like lions, etc., but some how our government seems to think it has a duty to protect us from these things and bans them even though we "know the risk" and would "consent" to it.

Will someone please provide a link to this "physically torturing 'consenting' primates by punching them in the head repeatedly with the goal of giving them a concussion (knocking them unconscious) for greed, inducing irreparable harm in 80~90% of career participants by way of permanent brain damage and dementia" thread you all keep speaking about? Sorry, I have no idea what the thread is actually called, as I'm not in it, but what I just wrote is quite literally what non-Olympic boxing, without head gear, is.

TIA.

[gogs67]

Given the choice, (some) humans would want to buy and own assault rifles, machine guns, high powered fireworks/explosives, switch blades, LSD, "angel dust"/PCP, wild animals for home use like lions, etc., but some how our government seems to think it has a duty to protect us from these things and bans them even though we "know the risk" and would "consent" to it.

Will someone please provide a link to this "physically torturing 'consenting' primates by punching them in the head repeatedly with the goal of giving them a concussion (knocking them unconscious) for greed, inducing irreparable harm in 80~90% of career participants by way of permanent brain damage and dementia" thread you all are speaking about? Sorry, I have no idea what the thread is actually called, as I'm not in it, but if you re-read what I just wrote that's quite literally what non-Olympic boxing, without head gear, is.

TIA.

Hey Mahk, i've already put the link up here earlier and also mentioned it a couple of times to try and steer the boxing topic over there.
I know you feel they are one and the same but i think the general consensus is that there should be two seperate threads!
Here yah go
http://veganforum.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=boxing

[Mahk]

Sorry, I now see you did provide a link I missed earlier, thanks. I'll agree to the division but to me the important distinction is not primates, "consenting" or otherwise, be kept separate from bull and dog fighting, but rather animal fighting which has occasional and rare cuts, bruises, and even odd broken bones now and then, as does any sport, be kept separate from those which cause irreparable/permanent harm to the majority of consenting combators . The difference is one is relatively minor and heals over time, the other is irreparable and a life long disability. Judo, Jujitsu, karate, and Olympic boxing, when executed properly fall into the first category and I think it's fine if a vegan willingly chooses to participate or watch those. Boxing, however, when executed properly (but without head gear), falls into the second category, harming 80~90% of career professionals permanantly, which is why I agree with the various medical associations that it should be banned and not sanctioned by any civilized society.

edit: re-worded , I had "1st" and "2nd" category mixed up.

[Mahk]

I never knew until today but we still have a "bloodless" version of bull fighting in the US:
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...ss.Bullfights/
All animal fighting is wrong.

[Sarabi]

l&ll, the bulls always die after bullfights. The only reason the trabador has a chance in front of those bulls is because before the fight they cruelly wound the bull by slicing its underside open and often tie a rope tightly around its testicles, to make it mad. Bullfighters usually win by wearing the bull out, who all the time is losing massive amounts of blood from his wound. Bullfights always end in the bullfighter killing the bull... it is quite sad, atrociously cruel, and makes me angry .

EWW. Just like in the movie "Gladiator," what the emperor does to Maximus. The ironic thing about that movie is that it's actually just a soft version of people reveling in spectatorial violence all over again. I loved that movie... an older friend told me he didn't care for it; said it was just an updated version of the same thing he'd seen many times down the years (he was only in his early 20s).

Granted, Maximus does get pretty pissed off that he's just being put on display for bloodthirsty spectators. But in the end the whole thing becomes kind of glorious, not to mention the guy was Commander of the Armies of the North. I guess I still like the movie, but I'm tired of the way people around me declare that violence is the only way.

[Roxy]

," Frank Sousa, director of the Center for Portuguese Studies University of Massachusetts Dartmouth. "They feel their culture is disrespected. How is it any different from a rodeo?"

It's not. They're both cruel forms of "entertainment".

When California lawmakers banned to-the-death bullfights in 1957, they created an exemption for Portuguese-style bloodless fights if they are part of religious celebrations, the only exemption in the U.S.

That's no excuse. It doesn't make it right. The law needs to change. 1957 was a long time ago.

I never knew until today but we still have a "bloodless" version of bull fighting in the US:
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...ss.Bullfights/
All animal fighting is wrong.

[Shrapnel]

"The Portuguese people wonder why these animal rights activists can come in and disrupt a legal event without any consequences whatsoever," Frank Sousa, director of the Center for Portuguese Studies University of Massachusetts Dartmouth. "They feel their culture is disrespected. How is it any different from a rodeo?"

"The Nazi people wonder why these human rights activists could come in and disrupt a legal event without any consequences whatsoever," Joseph Goebbels, Third Reich propaganda minister. "They feel their culture is disrespected. How is it any different from the genocide of Native Americans?"

I mean, the Holocaust was legal, being state sanctioned, and people who smuggled Jews out of Germany, or Poles who resisted invasion and extermination were totally disrespecting an important part of Nazi culture.

[Shrapnel]

Given the choice, (some) humans would choose to buy and own assault rifles, machine guns, high powered fireworks/explosives, switch blades, LSD, "angel dust"/PCP, wild animals for home use like lions, etc., but some how our government seems to think it has a duty to protect us from these things and bans them even though we "know the risk" and would "consent" to it.

Will someone please provide a link to this "physically torturing 'consenting' primates by punching them in the head repeatedly with the goal of giving them a concussion (knocking them unconscious) for greed, inducing irreparable harm in 80~90% of career participants by way of permanent brain damage and dementia" thread you all keep speaking about? Sorry, I have no idea what the thread is actually called, as I'm not in it, but what I just wrote is quite literally what non-Olympic boxing, without head gear, is.

TIA.

Bit over dramatic of a description much? I don't think the quotes need to be around consenting, unless you are referring to boxers forced to fight at gunpoint. And torture usually happens without the tortured party willingly taking part. Would you make it illegal to have a beer (where so called, 'consenting' beings imbibe liquid DEATH!!!!! A vile poison which corrupts the morals of those held in thrall, causing the victims to preform actions over which they have no control as their psyches are rent apart! For that is what alcohol is, a poisonous substance, snaking through the very blood of its victims, destroying families and claiming over 15,000 mortal lives a year in the United States. It can NOT be reasoned with. It can NOT be bargained with. Alcohol feels no fear, no remorse, no regret, and it will NOT stop until every human has perished and the Earth been made a twisted necropolis, inhabited only by the wailing ghosts of those slaughtered)?

[*live*&*let*live]

Oh Lord it nearly makes me want to go teetotal....(I said nearly )

[Mahk]

My post was in the wrong thread Shrapnel. If you want to talk about why inducing permanent, irrepairible brain damage in roughly 80% of primates used, due to repeated blows to the head, slamming the brain against the skull (concussions), according to the American Medical Association, for entertainment purposes is "justifiable" because they "choose" to do it, please do so in the thread gogs linked to a few posts back. By consensus this thread is only about bull fighting; harming humans for entertainment is off topic.

[Roxy]

Oh Lord it nearly makes me want to go teetotal....(I said nearly )

[screamingvegan]

I would say that anyone who is intentionally hurting an animal gets what they deserve.

[hanseidavid]

Ignoring the pro-animal point of view -- the bull's 'job' was to maul the guy. It did its job. He didn't do his.

[screamingvegan]

I personally find it impossible to ignore the animal welfare point of view. Those animals, like most animals, live life at the mercy of humans who exploit them, abuse them and kill them for "entertainment" and a host of other supposed human entitlements. There is no excuse for hurting an animal in any way. Although, where I am from, animal welfare started before child welfare, my government funds millions upon millions of dollars to protect children but ignores an equally deserving population; animals....they are the unprotectd victims.

[Shrapnel]

Hehe, thanks L&LL

Well, my point, Mahk, was just that with enough scary language and theatricality (and gratuitous quotes), you can make anything horrific.

But right, back on topic. Bull fighting is bad.