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Thread: "sex sells sex"

  1. #1
    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default "sex sells sex"

    Carol J. Adams, author of "The Sexual Politics of Meat" (and other feminist/vegan writings), wrote a blog post about PETA's use of naked women. This part sums it up:
    People say, “Sex sells.” I say, “Sex sells sex.”
    She also argues that it is harmful to both animals and women.
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

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    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    I disagree with her and thinks she sounds very judgemental.

  3. #3
    Sloth
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote Sarabi View Post
    People say, “Sex sells.” I say, “Sex sells sex.”
    In a previous debate over Peta's use of these tactics, that was almost the exact phrasing I used.

    EDIT: Actually, I think I remember deleting the post due to not wanting to get into a massive scrap with someone o_0

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    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote Roxy View Post
    I disagree with her and thinks she sounds very judgemental.
    "very judgmental"? What is judgmental about what she says?
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

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    CunningPlans Poison Ivy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    I love the last paragraph on her blog...

    "I don’t believe animal advocacy needs naked bodies to make its point. Animals can be compelling on their own, if we were to give them a chance and a real voice."

    ...and couldn't agree more.
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote Poison Ivy View Post
    Animals can be compelling on their own, if we were to give them a chance and a real voice.
    And how do you propose we do that? Unfortunately pictures of vivisection, cruelty to animals or cute fluffy bunnies just don't have any effect on some; there is no one-size-fits-all solution to improving animal welfare.

    I dislike the fact that the blog writer seems to suggest women are somehow pawns in the hands of PeTA; women can and do choose themselves how they want to use their bodies. And why does a woman showing off her body always have to seen in negative terms? If Che Guevara wants to use her body as a weapon in the battle for rights, I don't see the problem. Neither does she, obviously; she chose to do it after all.

  7. #7
    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    fiamma, women can and do also choose to remain victims of sexual abuse (granted, they don't - usually - choose the sexual abuse itself, but they stay in harmful situations). I don't think that makes it acceptable.

    Have you ever met anyone who went vegan because of naked women on the street? I'd like to repeat Adams' words:

    sex sells sex.

    And I think it distracts from the issue.
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

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    CunningPlans Poison Ivy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote fiamma View Post
    And how do you propose we do that? Unfortunately pictures of vivisection, cruelty to animals or cute fluffy bunnies just don't have any effect on some; there is no one-size-fits-all solution to improving animal welfare.
    I don't know fiamma, you are right though that there is no one-size-fits-all solution, but I know that when I have shown people some of the Peta 'naked' adverts the message behind it was completely lost behind their interest/amusement at the nudity.

    Fair enough, that may be indicative of the people I know but the message getting lost in favour of the nudity does concern me. At least Earthlings and other documentaries about factory farming/slaughter methods/vivisection have made people think rather than just providing titillation for thirty seconds.

    Quote Sarabi View Post
    And I think it distracts from the issue.
    Me too.
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    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote Sarabi View Post
    "very judgmental"? What is judgmental about what she says?

    Generally the whole tone of the post. Women fought for the right to do with their bodies what they would like. Now when women choose to take their clothes off for a good cause, they are judged by a large number of the population.


    I dislike the fact that the blog writer seems to suggest women are somehow pawns in the hands of PeTA; women can and do choose themselves how they want to use their bodies. And why does a woman showing off her body always have to seen in negative terms? If Che Guevara wants to use her body as a weapon in the battle for rights, I don't see the problem. Neither does she, obviously; she chose to do it after all.
    Well said.

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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    I've never thought that nudity was a specifically effective ploy, but I don't understand why it gets people's panties in a twist. (lol) I love being naked, and I love animals. Combining those two? AWESOME! Honestly, I think we should be doing naked protests to fight our right to be nude in public. I think it's dumb we are required to be clothed. Maybe THAT's why everyone seeing naked protests as sexual, because we can't hndle the thought of *gasp* a naked body in a non-sexual context. Showin some skin? might as well be gettin freaky in a school classroom.

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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    ^ Brilliant post, couldn't have said it better...

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    I'm not sure about the nudity thing, I don't think women should be used in this way.
    I also don't understand why some women complain about women using makeup and wearing heels, and yet they think it's 'ok' for women to go around taking their clothes off!
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    I've never thought that nudity was a specifically effective ploy, but I don't understand why it gets people's panties in a twist. (lol) I love being naked, and I love animals. Combining those two? AWESOME! Honestly, I think we should be doing naked protests to fight our right to be nude in public. I think it's dumb we are required to be clothed. Maybe THAT's why everyone seeing naked protests as sexual, because we can't hndle the thought of *gasp* a naked body in a non-sexual context. Showin some skin? might as well be gettin freaky in a school classroom.
    But it's NOT a non-sexual context. The entire purpose of the naked bodies for PETA is to re-sexualize them to promote animal rights/welfare. I'd like to see someone argue that PETA's Superbowl ad was a "*gasp*... non-sexual context."
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    People are not shocked or taken by nudity or sex as tool of selling any longer, on music channel R&B stars parade around as though they are in porn sets and dress similar and that was on day time music tv which kids see, no one has ever spoke out about this and I am surprised.

    So using sex and provocative images to sell AR issues will have little effect what makes me sit up and help a AR campaign is hard evidence gathered by clever covert activists that is FACT, as hard as it is to watch it makes the blood boil and my action reaction kicks in without hesitation.

    Seeing someone like Jenna Jameson in kinky pleather saying "I am pleathered not leathered" is not going to work for the average Joe in the street.

    Seeing a victim of the leather industrie having it's skin mechanically reomoved in one of those disgusting mass slaughter production factories no matter how gross it is to watch will make me stop wearing it and fight back.
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    snivelingchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote Sarabi View Post
    But it's NOT a non-sexual context. The entire purpose of the naked bodies for PETA is to re-sexualize them to promote animal rights/welfare. I'd like to see someone argue that PETA's Superbowl ad was a "*gasp*... non-sexual context."
    hmm, I was thinking more about the ones where people get naked and lie down in big meat trays or paint themselves as bunnies in cages. I don't remember that superbowl ad, but I DO like sex! I like it, and think it should be done more and referred to more. Then maybe more people would have healthier thought patterns about sex and have healthier relationships and we can talk about sex, and encourage it in these healthier relationships. (sorry, kind of stream of consciousness at the mo; readable sentences are for another day for me it seems, lol)

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    snivelingchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote sandra View Post
    I also don't understand why some women complain about women using makeup and wearing heels, and yet they think it's 'ok' for women to go around taking their clothes off!
    Now, I'M confused. That doesn't seem contradictory at all. Naked is natural and beautiful. Makeup and heels are my preference because they're not natural, and in my opinion, less beautiful. To me, it makes sense for a nudist to not like those things.

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    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    hmm, I was thinking more about the ones where people get naked and lie down in big meat trays or paint themselves as bunnies in cages. I don't remember that superbowl ad, but I DO like sex! I like it, and think it should be done more and referred to more. Then maybe more people would have healthier thought patterns about sex and have healthier relationships and we can talk about sex, and encourage it in these healthier relationships. (sorry, kind of stream of consciousness at the mo; readable sentences are for another day for me it seems, lol)
    That's a big maybe. I think mainstream culture has already gone through its uber-sexualization and sexual freedom stage, at least in this country. The problem is not sex itself, but sexual objectification. PETA putting up an ad about "vegetarians have better sex" and showing video of women masturbating with broccoli and lettuce is not going to be taken seriously, but might turn some meat-eaters on if it doesn't piss them off. What message do you get out of that? "Vegetarians masturbate with broccoli, so straight white guys should have sex with them"? I don't think there are going to be women (who aren't even the target of the Superbowl) saying, "I want to become a vegetarian so I can go down on broccoli."

    Big meat trays may be something else... I'm not sure how that would be sexual objectification.
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    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Peta use shock tactics to get people's attention. That's what they do. Sometimes they do it very well and sometimes I think they do it in poor taste.

    Personally, I would take my clothes off for the animal rights cause. It's my body and if I choose to go naked to raise awareness, then that's my choice. Just as I think it's been the choice of all of the other men and women who have taken their clothes off for the cause.

    What about all those people who do the naked run around the time of the running of the bulls? I think that's awesome!

  19. #19
    snivelingchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    ^ me too, I'd love to do that one!

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    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    We could let all our floppy bits flop in the breeze whilst running for a good cause!

  21. #21
    Mahk
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Sex sells sex. Sex also sells perfume, beer, vacation/holidays trips/cruises, or in this case, scandalous for its day in 1921, tire valve caps:


    ...the list is almost endless. Does it work? It would seem odd for ad agencies to spend billions and billions of dollars on a technique that doesn't work and believe me they test the effectiveness of their various techniques constantly. What does the scantily clad woman have to do with tire valve caps? Nothing! Just like naked PeTA women and men have very little to do with AR. It doesn't have to make any sense whatsoever in order to be an effective ad campaign.

    Sex also sells meat, by the way, take for example how meat-eating is tied in with masculinity and machismo in this current US TV commercial:
    [YOUTUBE]Z8_wr0tGP_0[/YOUTUBE]

    Alternative link, if that's not working, here.

    I'm offended how my gender is portrayed (obectified?) as loud, obnoxious, grunting savages that eat meat.

    It's not just in this ad either; at work my male coworkers often brag about their meat consumption as if it is a right of passage into manhood and how they can "out do" the others. [No, they aren't doing it in front of me because they are trying to offend my vegan sensibilities, they are just "into it".]

  22. #22
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    I hate that ad and I hope I never see it on TV.

  23. #23
    Mahk
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    It's disgusting on many levels. I see it almost every week I pretty much only watch one network TV show so it must play on that: 30 Rock.

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    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Oh, yeah. Because PETA just really, no REALLY, tests the effectiveness of its ads and wouldn't use them if they didn't work. *major eye roll* PETA's latest ad:

    http://www.feministing.com/archives/017289.html
    "To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana." - Buddha

  25. #25
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    ^ Actually that is very offensive.

  26. #26
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    I have never been either pro or against Peta but I know a lot of veggie/vegan people do object to them.

    I suppose maybe they are trying to appeal to women (with some of their sexist campaigns) because maybe women are more likely to try vegetarianism/veganism in general?

    They send out a lot of mixed messages I think.

  27. #27
    Mahk
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote BlackCats View Post
    I suppose maybe they are trying to appeal to women (with some of their sexist campaigns) because maybe women are more likely to try vegetarianism/veganism in general?
    [emphasis mine]

    When you make a generalization about peoples' behavior based on their race/sex you are being...

    ---

    "How dare PeTA promote current medical wisdom that a diet rich in fat and cholesterol can lead to obesity, heart disease, arterial sclerosis, high blood pressure, and other health problems. They act as if those are negative things."

    "How dare PeTA imply that Caucasian people have more blubber than people of color."

    The fact that the cartoon caricature depicted in this PeTA ad is female or white is completely arbitrary. The exact ad copy used on this photo would work exactly the same (or even better):


    Save the whales. Lose the blubber. Go vegetarian.

    Of course if one is of the mind that all PeTA advertisements are inherently racist and sexist one can easily attack them any time they have an ad where a person's skin color or gender is discernible. I think people are reading into things. [and I'm not a PeTA supporter nor do I claim that none of their ads are offensive]

    "Look everyone, now PeTA is making fun of Britons/musicians depicting them in silly hats" :


    "Or maybe they are ridiculing people who wear black clothing? Well it's a PeTA ad, so certainly some group of people must be unfairly under attack, right? Now they're attacking children" :
    http://blog.peta.org/archives/FeedingKidsPetaAd_72.jpg

  28. #28
    BlackCats
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    ^ As usual Mahk, I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with what I wrote. I would prefer you wouldn't put revolting photos in your posts. (I can't stand Paul McCartney. Lol. He needs to go vegan.)

  29. #29
    Mahk
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Unlike you I think vegetarians like Paul M., in the big picture, are our allies, not our enemies and many of us came to veganism through vegetarianism as a first step. They just haven't quite put it all together now, er, yet.

    When you make a generalization about peoples' behavior based on their race/sex you are being...
    ...racist/sexist. Your comment about women's behavior was therefor sexist.

    I have no problem with vegetarian organizations pointing out that meat eating is high in fat and cholesterol and leads to obesity, heart disease, arterial sclerosis, high blood pressure, and other health problems. I myself am over weight, by the way, and agree with the ad. It is not healthy and not something one should aspire to be. Perhaps you would care to explain why you find this ad is "offensive"?

    [I've added sarcasm emoticons to the parts of my previous post which previously appeared simply as in quotation marks to more clearly show the comments do not really represent how I feel but are rather me being facetious.]

  30. #30
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Perhaps you would care to explain why you find this ad is offensive?
    I don't have to explain to you why I find it offensive and I can't actually be bothered either. I don't usually get annoyed by Peta but this advert actually has me irritated.

    Also I disagree with their point as I was very overweight when I was vegetarian as dairy and eggs aren't healthy foods IMO so I don't even agree that being vegetarian is a healthy way to live as well as it being cruel to the cows and chickens.

  31. #31
    Mahk
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    Quote BlackCats View Post
    I don't have to explain to you why I find it offensive and I can't actually be bothered either.
    Thank you for being so candid.

    Also I disagree with their point as I was very overweight when I was vegetarian as dairy and eggs aren't healthy foods IMO so I don't even agree that being vegetarian is a healthy way to live
    Compared to meat eating though? [That's rhetorical by the way, considering you refuse to answer my real questions it's pointless to ask you to clairify your points. I feel bad now that I went ahead and attempted to edit my own post to make it more clear to you considering you refuse to reciprocate. Oh well.]

    "Vegetarians also tend to have lower body weight relative to their height than non-vegetarians. "

    - Mayo Clinic.com, “Vegetarian Diet: will it help me lose weight?”:
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/veg...n-diet/AN01580

  32. #32
    Rocket Queen
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    I don't care what we do to get a reaction and promote veganism, as long as it works.

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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    In my (admittedly limited) experience, all those PETA ads do is alienate people. Many feminists, in particular, just hate PETA, and that isn't very helpful. It's things like this that lead people to write off animal rights, veganism, etc. as insane.

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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Many feminists find peta offensive so they can't be helping things?? Doesn't mean every feminist does or that they should determine what is acceptable or not.

    Liking the posts as usual Mahk. Keep up the good work.

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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    Many feminists find peta offensive so they can't be helping things?? Doesn't mean every feminist does or that they should determine what is acceptable or not.

    Liking the posts as usual Mahk. Keep up the good work.
    Sorry. I should have been more descriptive. All I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that there's no good reason to needlessly alienate anyone. And I do feel that in this case, it is needless. Not that there aren't times that alienating some people is necessary, of course.

  36. #36
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    I don't agree that their actions should inherently alienate someone just because they are feminist. I'm a feminist who happens to think that someone calling their actions sexist is silly. So I don't think they should discontinue an ad campaign that someone might interpret as offensive. It's impossible to not offend anyone.

    And before anyone points out that they offend more than just a few people, I realize this but do also contribute much of it to the tendency for people to band together against a single entity that is easy to target. I do interpret some of the attacks against peta as being such. I think people should make their own individual opinions on peta more than they seem to do. (comment in general, not to a person on this forum)

  37. #37
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    I still don't mind PETA as I think they do a lot of good, personally I have read that quite a few people have turned vegan/ vegetarian because of them. This particular ad seems offensive to me. I don't care about their half naked people adverts honestly. I just wish there were another animal welfare group that was as visible and vocal as Peta.

  38. #38
    puca
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    Quote Sarabi View Post
    Oh, yeah. Because PETA just really, no REALLY, tests the effectiveness of its ads and wouldn't use them if they didn't work. *major eye roll* PETA's latest ad:

    http://www.feministing.com/archives/017289.html
    That is disgusting.

    I have little admiration for Peta's campaigns, that poster is playing upon people's low self-esteem. On one hand, Peta are claiming to be in it for the animals, on the other hand they are forcing upon people heteronormative stereotypes which the 'beauty industry' makes so much money on. Perhaps if people stopped saying that it's somehow bad to carry extra weight, to have a few spots here and there, to have rings around your eyes, or other really normal things that most people have, then individuals would buy less chemically loaded (mostly tested on animal) products to live up to the expectations of a media controlled society.

    And I hate this, hate how the poster implies that carrying some extra weight is somehow wrong. I carry cuddliness, why the fuck should Peta then say I should "lose the blubber". If you're gonna respect living creatures, you have to also respect diversity within our own species. Yes, some people will lose weight by cutting out meat, but not all of us.

    I really hate it when people find out I'm vegan and then they think of Peta, it is embarassing.

  39. #39
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    ummm...that poster clearly depicts an obese person, not a little "extra weight." Not all people will lose weight be eating a vegetarian diet, but if they start obese or overweight and switch to a HEALTHY veg diet then they should. That's the point. You don't have to NOT encourage losing weight to respect people of all sizes. That's where people go over the line.

  40. #40
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Peta uses shock tactics, and advertising that gets people talking. That's exactly what that poster has done. They've achieved their goal. They've shocked us and got us talking.

  41. #41

    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Just my twopenny'th: Preaching to the converted is one thing, informing the masses about the ethics and sound scientific reasons for a vegan diet is another thing altogether though. Hopefully their 'ranting' will encourage people to seek further information but I think it may just further alienate the AR movement from the mainstream media, who will continue to present us all as cranks.

  42. #42
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Perhaps.....but I think we will always be seen as "cranks" with or without Peta. After all....they're only animals.

  43. #43
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    My opinion for what it's worth - I hate getting the Peta magazine which is full of sex and nudity - buy The Sun if that's what you want... I think Peta's strength lies in its undercover work and sheer tenacity - it's a good organisation but I do hate all the nudity - it certainly wouldn't persuade me to change my lifestyle, and if fans of some of the nudees do change it will probably only be shortlived... about as long as it takes them to swap allegiance...
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote Mahk View Post
    It's not just in this ad either; at work my male coworkers often brag about their meat consumption as if it is a right of passage into manhood and how they can "out do" the others. [No, they aren't doing it in front of me because they are trying to offend my vegan sensibilities, they are just "into it".]
    I never and will never understand why eating meat is considered masculine.

    I find nothing masculine about eating innocent and gentle creatures who are in essence quite harmless and timid. Yeah, real manly. Eating something that doesn't even have the capacity or will to fight back. I'd like to see these people wrestle a mad lion with their bare hands and win. Do that and we'll see how masculine you really are.

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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    I thought the poster is pretty funny and catchy myself. There's always something that can cause offence to anyone at anytime. I could get offended on a daily basis, and I actually do, but I let it go because it's not worth bugging my brain with. For example, I'm a woman of 5.3 and all I hear everywhere is how beautiful it is to be tall.... should I fell discriminated against, especially since there's no cure for it? I don't think so, it's just life and we all have to learn deal with those kind of things on some level. (I'm quite happy to be on the shorter side, but that's beside the point *wink*).
    "Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.

  46. #46
    Mahk
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    Heightism is one of the most pervasive yet invisible "ism's" out there. For example, statistical analysis has determined that the fact that in the majority of televised presidential elections, the taller candidate usually wins, can't be a random coincidence.

    There's a wiki page on it but I don't have time to search for it. TA.

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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Could it be one of the reasons why Kucinich doesn't have so much visibility in media as some other politicians... one can begin to wonder.
    "Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.

  48. #48
    kriz's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Quote Roxy View Post
    Peta use shock tactics to get people's attention. That's what they do. Sometimes they do it very well and sometimes I think they do it in poor taste.

    Personally, I would take my clothes off for the animal rights cause. It's my body and if I choose to go naked to raise awareness, then that's my choice. Just as I think it's been the choice of all of the other men and women who have taken their clothes off for the cause.

    What about all those people who do the naked run around the time of the running of the bulls? I think that's awesome!
    Agreed. I'm not so much into public nudity myself, it's something I can live without, but I would drop my clothes for an animal rights cause... like running with the bulls. A little ''embarrassment" on my part is nothing compared to what those bulls are going through.
    "Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.

  49. #49
    BlackCats
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  50. #50
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "sex sells sex"

    Well, I'm actually a bit disappointed that she apologised. Why should she have to? Isn't there such a thing as freedom of speach?

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