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Thread: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

  1. #1

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    Default The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Hello everyone! I'm fairly new to this forum (and to being vegan!) and I've come across a conundrum. I'm in nursing school, starting my pediatrics rotation, and I received an email that says we need to get the flu vaccine before we can attend clinical at the hospital. I guess I'm just curious about how you all would approach this situation. Should I reply to this email stating my beliefs and that I don't wish to receive the vaccine? I'm also not really sure how I should word my reply...Just any advice or comments would be appreciated.

    Thanks!

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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Hmm - this is a tough one. It sounds from your posting as if the flu jab may be something compulsory. If it is, they may put you in a tough position if you refuse. When I did nursing I had to get a Hep B jab, and I'm pretty sure that was compulsory, although TBH I didn't ask .

    Remember too that although the flu jab is no guarantee you won't get the flu, if you do you risk spreading it to others. I'm doing ambulance work now, and my bf is intending getting the jab as he's Type 1 diabetic, so I'll probably get it too as I don't want to risk getting it and passing it on to him.

    These are all just my thoughts, and often we need to pick our battles wisely.

    Good luck in your choice.

  3. #3
    Slowly I Awake's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    I think there's a good chance that this will be mandatory for you, though you should go ahead and ask if you aren't sure.

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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    As flu is spread when we cough and sneeze, when you get the flu jab it means you won't be able to catch that strain of flu and pass it on to people who you are working with.
    As you are working in health those people may be "vulnerable" and could die of flu. That's part of the reason you're supposed to get the vaccine.
    See my local diary ... http://herbwormwood.blogspot.com/

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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    We do not get the vaccine for many reasons, only one of which is that they're not vegan. In MA we must lie and say it's for religious reasons, but when I worked in a hospital in NH I could state my "philosophical" reasons for exemption from the vaccine. It's all pretty silly IMO.
    I tend to agree with Dr. Jay Gordon on the matter: http://www.drjaygordon.com/developme...h1n1update.asp
    mama to Ryan (7), AJ (6), Nate (3), Maia (1), all born at home.

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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Oh, and nothing is MANDATORY, even if they say it is. There is always a way around it legally.
    mama to Ryan (7), AJ (6), Nate (3), Maia (1), all born at home.

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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Thank you for all your replies! Gave me some good stuff to think about!

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    I would say that if it is mandatory, you should get it. You will make a huge difference to the world by being a nurse.

  9. #9
    Mahk
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Maebelle, welcome to the forum.

    The way I see it, the shot isn't really intended for you, it is intended for the sick, elderly, and children you work with. This is a standard recommendation of the CDC and others that people who work closely with vulnerable people should all get the shot. If you are a carrier, because you refuse the vaccine, you put them at risk and they are much more likely to have serious health complications from the flu, up to and including death. Remember, people are animals too and we oppose harming all animals.

    Does that Hippocratic oath thingy apply to nurses as well as doctors?

    "Above all else, do no harm to others."

    What aspect of the flu shot disturbs your vegan principals? The ingredients have animal compounds in them [eggs I believe]? Or that it, like the thousands of other medications you will be expected to administer unreservedly to patients every day, have all been safety tested and formulated with the use of animal testing?

    IMHO, if I were in your situation, I would consider it my moral obligation for the safety of my patients to get the shot. By refusing the shot how many chickens and/or lab rats will you have saved? Maybe a few molecules of one in an very abstract sense, but is that really more important than protecting children, etc?
    ---

    edit to add: Here's a great animation [click the blue hyperlink there] that explains "herd immunity" for any one here who might not be familiar with the term, as I know I wasn't up until having researched vaccinations myself.

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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    thank you so much mahk! Lots of good information and just what I needed to hear!

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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    As a "vulnerable" person, I see a lot of nurses.
    I do expect them to have followed health and hygiene guidelines, for my benefit as well as their own, yes, I'm biased!.
    See my local diary ... http://herbwormwood.blogspot.com/

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    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    I'm not a nurse and nor do I work with pregnant women, elderly people or children.

    I wasn't going to get the flu shot this year. I haven't had it in previous years and haven't been ill with the flu.

    Everyone I've asked about it at work, says that if they can get the shot for free, that they will get it.

    Generally, how do you all feel about getting the shot in circumstances other than maebelle's?

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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    I prefer to get the shot. I've had flu in the past ~ when I passed up the vaccination ~ and it knocked me on my butt.

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    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    The flu shot that they are advertising here this year is for the swine flu. The government say they will have enough vaccines in November, for every Canadian who wants one.

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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    I was once told by a high ranking member of Peta that its not about being perfect, but about easing as much suffering as humanly possible. By taking this shot you could ease the suffering caused by transmitting a disease to someone. But Im no expert on this , its only what Ive been told from those who have been vegan longer than I have.
    I am the Devil, and I'm here to do the Devils work.

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    Stu
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Hey Panzer, the length of time for which someone has been a vegan, or their 'ranking', does not make their opinion any more valid than yours or anyone else's! I'm not giving an opinion on the subject matter here; just a wee point.

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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Those who are vulnerable or spend time with vulnerable people really should get the shot. Although this might slightly increase the use of animals, it could save human lives. I think vegans are permitted to use something that is not 100 percent vegan if it is medically necessary. I mean, it would be a little unfair for one person's ethical beliefs to cost another person her or his life.

    For the rest of us, it does not seem appropriate to get it. Think about all the animals that would suffer if we all used non-vegan products to protect ourselves from illness. That would not be vegan. I am also somewhat disturbed by the idea of intentional exposure to a dead viral fragment, but that is a personal issue that does not change my suggestion.
    When people finally realize that their appetite for animals is upsetting the planet's balance, will they change, or even care?

  18. #18
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    I tend to agree with you linera.

  19. #19
    Mahk
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    There is a ton of misinformation out there regarding the swine flu vaccination and vaccinations in general. In a casual search I just did on Google, I found the vast majority of hits I got in researching swine flu shots were from known "health newsletter" quacks, lunatics, and conspiracy theory driven paranoia sites such as Rense, prisonplanet, and the quack and snake oil peddler guru, Dr. Mercola (not an MD). That's quite sad.

    For those people who don't think the government and medical science is "out to get them", the sixty year old Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC for short), based in Atlanta, is considered not only the US experts on disease control but also the international experts for disease control and prevention. They represent the combined knowledge of more than 14,000 employees in 40 countries and in 170 occupations; largely doctors, technicians, medical researchers, and medical policy advisers.

    Here's what they have to say on their Swine flu or H1N1 vaccine FAQ page:

    Who will be recommended to receive the 2009 H1N1 vaccine?

    CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) has recommended that certain groups of the population receive the 2009 H1N1 vaccine when it first becomes available. These target groups include pregnant women, people who live with or care for children younger than 6 months of age, healthcare and emergency medical services personnel, persons between the ages of 6 months and 24 years old, and people ages of 25 through 64 years of age who are at higher risk for 2009 H1N1 because of chronic health disorders or compromised immune systems.

    We do not expect that there will be a shortage of 2009 H1N1 vaccine, but availability and demand can be unpredictable. There is some possibility that initially the vaccine will be available in limited quantities. In this setting, the committee recommended that the following groups receive the vaccine before others: pregnant women, people who live with or care for children younger than 6 months of age, health care and emergency medical services personnel with direct patient contact, children 6 months through 4 years of age, and children 5 through 18 years of age who have chronic medical conditions.

    The committee recognized the need to assess supply and demand issues at the local level. The committee further recommended that once the demand for vaccine for these target groups has been met at the local level, programs and providers should begin vaccinating everyone from ages 25 through 64 years. Current studies indicate the risk for infection among persons age 65 or older is less than the risk for younger age groups. Therefore, as vaccine supply and demand for vaccine among younger age groups is being met, programs and providers should offer vaccination to people over the age of 65.


    So it would seem that although they see no need to rush, they recommend that eventually everyone should get the vaccine, but high risk group and medical staff/healthcare workers should come first. I agree.

    I plan on eventually getting the shot. I saw a pharmacy, Walgreens, near me that was advertising they will soon have it and the shots (or possibly could be a nasal spray for some, including children) for $24.99.

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    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Thanks Mahk. That's all really interesting info.

    I didn't realise that the vaccine could come in the form of a nose spray.

  21. #21
    Mahk
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    Roxy, just to be clear, the nasal spray option I read about may not be available to just anyone or in all areas (or even this year). My knowledge about the spray option did not come from the CDC, but rather from another site I can't recall and I can't really vouch for.

    I just wanted to be sure you don't march into a pharmacy or clinic expecting it to be an option for you and it isn't. Otherwise you might be upset I had misinformed you.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Quote maebelle View Post
    Hello everyone! I'm fairly new to this forum (and to being vegan!) and I've come across a conundrum. I'm in nursing school, starting my pediatrics rotation, and I received an email that says we need to get the flu vaccine before we can attend clinical at the hospital. I guess I'm just curious about how you all would approach this situation. Should I reply to this email stating my beliefs and that I don't wish to receive the vaccine? I'm also not really sure how I should word my reply...Just any advice or comments would be appreciated.

    Thanks!
    Hi maebelle, I'm glad I found your post as I am a student nurse and had the exact same dilemma the other day. The lecturers on my course told the class that we all had to have the flu vaccination, so while I was having a blood test to check how the hep c vaccination had gone I asked about the flu jab and the nurse told me that she could do it then and there for me.

    When I found out that the flu jab contained egg protein I asked if there was any vegan friendly alternative available and she was very apologetic and told me that there wasn't. Weighing up the good and bad points to having the injection I decided to just go ahead with it anyway even though it was against my principles as it would be wrong to work with vulnerable sick people without getting it done.

    The annoying thing is though, another Nurse told me later on that the flu jab isn't actually compulsory for NHS workers and that she refuses to have it. It was pretty annoying being given conflicting information like that so in your position I would send the email and get a definite answer on the options available to you, good luck

  23. #23
    JC
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    I'm very against the idea. It p****s me off how the govt puts everyone under the same bracket and assumes that they're right when it comes to medecine, and that everyone wants the vaccine. There are alternatives, and just because they think that animal-tested chemicals are the best, doesn't make it so. And i think you're well within your rights to refuse on the grounds that a) it's not vegan and b) it's animal tested and so goes against your ethics, so if they're not going to provide a vegan alternative, that's not your problem. Personally, i would rather risk having the flu myself than have a 'mandatory' vaccine... Plus, if you're a strong, healthy vegan, what are the chances you'll catch it in the first place?? Like 0.000000001%, as a rough estimate

    (I just read that through before posting and i had no idea how angry it made me feel - well what d'you know!)

  24. #24
    Mahk
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    Quote JC View Post
    There are alternatives, and just because they think that animal-tested chemicals are the best, doesn't make it so.
    False. There are no non-animal tested alternative vaccines available to either the general public or health-care professionals such as nurses and nurses in school. Of course one could selfishly refuse the vaccine as a nursing school pupil but the school would have every right to expel you as an unsafe risk and carrier of the potentially deadly disease which has already killed thousands, just like they would have every right to expel you if you refused to wash up prior to surgery room entry because the kind of anti-microbial soap they insist you use is both animal tested and quite possibly contains animal derivatives such as the common soap ingredient sodium tallowate, made from beef tallow (fat).

    The concern is not if healthy young nursing students might catch the disease but rather that they will become carriers if they don't get vaccinated and infect high risk people they attend such as children, the elderly, and people with compromised immune systems who are much more likely to have serious complications up to and including death. Harming them is harming animals and that's not vegan.

    The governments of the US and UK have absolutely no requirements for mandatory H1N1 vaccination for the general public but if an individual chooses to refuse the vaccination they have no right to work as health-care professionals and should consider alternative occupations, IMO.
    ---

    “Salus populi supreme lex esto” translation: “The safety of the People is the highest law.”
    Last edited by Mahk; Nov 27th, 2009 at 06:01 AM.

  25. #25
    JC
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    False. There are no non-animal tested alternative vaccines available to either the general public or health-care professionals such as nurses and nurses in school. Of course one could selfishly refuse the vaccine as a nursing school pupil but the school would have every right to expel you as an unsafe risk and carrier of the potentially deadly disease which has already killed thousands, just like they would have every right to expel you if you refused to wash up prior to surgery room entry because the kind of anti-microbial soap they insist you use is both animal tested and quite possibly contains animal derivatives such as the common soap ingredient sodium tallowate, made from beef tallow (fat).

    The concern is not if healthy young nursing students might catch the disease but rather that they will become carriers if they don't get vaccinated and infect high risk people they attend such as children, the elderly, and people with compromised immune systems who are much more likely to have serious complications up to and including death. Harming them is harming animals and that's not vegan.

    The governments of the US and UK have absolutely no requirements for mandatory H1N1 vaccination for the general public but if an individual chooses to refuse the vaccination they have no right to work as health-care professionals and should consider alternative occupations, IMO.
    ---

    “Salus populi supreme lex esto” translation: “The safety of the People is the highest law.”
    I think you missed my point. I wasn't talking about medicine alternatives, i was talking about natural, holistic alternatives. Sorry if i didn't make that clear. Who's to say that a vaccination is the ONLY way to prevent the spread of the flu? Just because something isn't the status quo, doesn't make it any less legitimate. I should probably just stay away from the medical field because we're never going to get along

  26. #26
    Mahk
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    Quote JC View Post
    Who's to say that a vaccination is the ONLY way to prevent the spread of the flu?
    Science.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Harming them is harming animals and that's not vegan.
    I don't follow you there, are you saying someone can only be vegan if they take an animal tested, non-vegan vaccine?

    I don't think we should start saying what is and isn't vegan in absolute terms like that. It's a tricky situation that is not of our doing and I think vegans are perfectly entitled to refuse animal tested/derrived medication. On the other hand I would not judge someone's veganness if they chose to have the vaccine.

    In my view the blame for swine flu and and deaths because of it belongs to the animal abuse industries (pig farms) and the governments that allow them to operate they way they do.

    As they have not heeded the warnings to stop intensivley farming animals then it is they who are the ones who put public health at risk.

    Why doesn't the media focus on the cause of swine flu?
    What are they gonna do when animal farming causes the next health scare?
    BSE, Salmonela, Bird flu, swine flu...when will they learn?

  28. #28
    Mahk
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    Quote Johnstuff View Post
    I don't follow you there, are you saying someone can only be vegan if they take an animal tested, non-vegan vaccine?
    If they choose to work as a health care professional with guaranteed exposure to vulnerable people and there are no alternative [fill in the blank with either face masks/latex gloves/antimicrobial soap/vaccines] that aren't animal tested or derived, then YES! People have a right to jeopordize their own health but they have no right to jeopardize public health by carelessly infecting others, causing them to become ill and potentially die. If they refuse to use hospital sanctioned goods due to their religious/lifestyle beliefs then the hospital has every right to fire them.
    ---

    Hypothetical scenario:

    A: "I, as a vegan nurse, refuse to wear latex gloves at the hospital because they have been manufactured with the milk derivative casein. Instead to prevent the spread of germs and infection I choose to use prayer."

    B: "You're fired."
    ---

    The definition of vegan, so says the organization that coined the term, is that we avoid animal goods "whenever practical and possible". If no one makes a non-animal tested vaccine, etc., then there is no practical alternative other than to not work as a health care professional. Again, the vaccine is not given to healthcare professionals mainly to prevent them from contracting the disease but really more to prevent them from becoming carriers. Hospitals have a moral obligation to maintain herd immunity.
    Last edited by Mahk; Nov 28th, 2009 at 12:24 AM.

  29. #29
    Buddha Belly
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    I have been offered the Swine Flu vaccine as a keyworker and the normal flu shot. I have refused both, the first as I do not believe it has been properly tested for long term effects on humans and it has side effects that can be worse than the flu itself. I am sensible enough to not go into work when I am ill and have no underlying health issues so I feel me reveiving a flu shot is just as risky as crossing the road or walking round where I work late at night!! It is only my personal opinion that every person who takes a vaccination shot when they do not need too is putting more money into the coffers of animal testers. Yes I am a martyr and will not take medication that is animal tested or funds animal testers. I am not sure what I will do in a life and death situation as I have not been there since being vegan and can only speculate what I would do. All I do know is that I have been in absolute agony all week as I will not take animal cruel medication when I do not have too.
    Aain this is just my own opinion and does not necessarily reflect those of other vegans or society at large. It ,may not seem logical or sensible, but personal opinions rarely are.

  30. #30
    JC
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    Science.
    And who's to say that science is the only answer?? Science. IMO it's pretty narrow-minded to assume that there's only one way. It's like my friend who thinks i'll die within a year from lack of protein, then go to hell for not being catholic. No offence to anyone, but i find it hard to believe that someone who is fully aware that it's possible to live an alternative lifestyle i.e. surviving - shock horror - without animal products, couldn't open their mind to the possibility of an alternative way to prevent illness too. I'm not saying the vaccine doesn't work, i'm just saying it's not the only thing that does, and as individuals we're all entitled to uphold our own beliefs and do what we think is best for ourselves, and not what is drummed into us as being the right thing. The government also recommends drinking milk and eating cheese for calcium. Go figure.

    And Buddha Belly, i am in total agreement with you, good on you for sticking to your beliefs

    p.s. i'm not directing this at anyone, it's just my personal opinion.

  31. #31
    Mahk
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    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    it has side effects that can be worse than the flu itself..
    False.

    Death toll from H1N1, also known as swine flu: 4,000 and steadily climbing.

    Number of H1N1 vaccinations administered so far: 65,000,000

    Death toll from H1N1 vaccine: 0


    Of course with any injection there's always a risk of some mild injection site soreness the next day (the single most common symptom), needles make some people faint and they could knock their heads I suppose, and since the skin is being pierced there is a very slight risk of infection, but most people really try to avoid that other symptom called "death" which over 4,000 swine flu inflicted people have so far exhibited.

    Then again, for those of you who think the government is out to get you and the field of medical science was invented to dupe people and harm them in order to make money and sadistically torture animals for no good reason, you can completely ignore these statistics backed by every credible news bureau in the world such as the BBC, CNN, Reuters, AP, etc since they all must be part of the international conspiracy designed to harm us and animals as well.

    I am sensible enough to not go into work when I am ill
    Although you apparently seem to fail to appreciate that you can be a carrier, if not immunized, and infect vulnerable people, even possibly killing them, even though you yourself currently feel fine and are completely without any symptoms. People can be quite contagious a full day before exhibiting any symptoms themselves, whatsoever, and infect dozens of other people.
    Last edited by Mahk; Nov 28th, 2009 at 12:21 AM.

  32. #32
    Mahk
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    Quote JC View Post
    And who's to say that science is the only answer?
    Logic and reason, but since you don't seem to believe in science, I doubt you'd believe in them either.

    I'm not saying the vaccine doesn't work, i'm just saying it's not the only thing that does,
    I'm looking forward to hearing you list even a singular alternative method that's equally as effective in stopping health care professionals from spreading the disease, backed by any medical institution.
    Last edited by Mahk; Nov 27th, 2009 at 11:38 PM.

  33. #33
    Buddha Belly
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    Mahk 4000 deaths world wide is nothing. 6500000 immunised is nothing either just over uk population. What are the long term effects on humans? You can not honestly know.
    I do not think the government is out to get me but I think medical science makes mistakes which affect many people every day. Thalidamide was a roaring success for those still living with a fully untested drug.
    medical science has always believed that at THAT time in history they were right. People stopped doing physics once as they felt wverythmg was known, I know that is not the case in medicine, but why should we listen to daily reports of swine flu pestilance that we were promised before the vaccine. There was no way it was averted by the new vaccine.

    I know people who have had tamiflu and had worse aide effects than they had with the flu, they received it too late to do any good anyway. The vaccine itself leads onto flu-like symptoms which has killed previous clients of mine, it is not just sore injection sites for some.

    Fair point on the contagious part, though I run that risk with all the HEP's, flu, measles etc. The chances of the swine flu coming from me in central London is very slim. Especially for my clients who share needles and drink cans.

  34. #34
    Mahk
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    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    Mahk 4000 deaths world wide is nothing.
    OOpps, did I say 4000? My data was a couple of months old, the current worldwide figure is double that, 8,452 [as of today's date], not to mention 100's of thousands of illnesses, so nothing to worry about. Kind of silly this even makes news headlines and has officially been deemed a worldwide pandemic by the World Health Organization, considering how unimportant it is.

    Since mumps causes less than a handful of deaths in the UK per year maybe we should stop vaccines for that too?

    What are the long term effects on humans? You can not honestly know.
    Considering how every single medical institution and world health organization disagrees with your paranoid view of the "hidden dangers" of the H1N1 vaccine, having only been field tested some 65 million times so far with no deaths and only mild transitory side effects, what other logical explanation can you attribute to their universally agreed upon recommendation that it be used, if not that they secretly know it is harmful and they aspire to "get us"? Or is it simply that the combined knowledge of the 14,000 doctors and research technicians that spend their lives analyzing the spread of disease, containment, and making policy guidelines for the Center for Disease Control and the World Health Organization aren't as smart as you regarding the pros and "cons" of the H1N1 vaccine for health care professionals?

    The vaccine [Tamiflu] itself leads onto flu-like symptoms which has killed previous clients of mine, it is not just sore injection sites for some.
    [emphasis mine]

    Interesting. And why did you not report their "Tamiflu induced deaths" to the proper authorities? Up until your shocking admission in this post the world medical community was under the impression that Tamiflu has never caused any deaths in your country, yet you personally know of more than one from first hand experience! Were you also in attendance at their autopsies to determine that their deaths were caused by Tamiflu? or is it possible your clients who "share needles" ever die for any other reasons and you've erroneously attributed their deaths to a recent procedure you witnessed they had had?
    Last edited by Mahk; Dec 1st, 2009 at 09:57 PM.

  35. #35

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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Quote JC View Post
    I'm very against the idea. It p****s me off how the govt puts everyone under the same bracket and assumes that they're right when it comes to medecine, and that everyone wants the vaccine. There are alternatives, and just because they think that animal-tested chemicals are the best, doesn't make it so. And i think you're well within your rights to refuse on the grounds that a) it's not vegan and b) it's animal tested and so goes against your ethics, so if they're not going to provide a vegan alternative, that's not your problem. Personally, i would rather risk having the flu myself than have a 'mandatory' vaccine... Plus, if you're a strong, healthy vegan, what are the chances you'll catch it in the first place?? Like 0.000000001%, as a rough estimate

    (I just read that through before posting and i had no idea how angry it made me feel - well what d'you know!)

    Exactly! I don't want to be forced getting anything nonvegan, ESPECIALLY tested on animals. And if there isn't an alternative, than perhaps they ought to focus on coming up with some and NOT test on animals. There's also this raging debate about vaccinations potentially causing allergy/asthma/autism problems as we mess with young immune systems from birth. I myself have allergies and I wonder sometimes if I had never had a vaccine just how "allergic" I'd be to all the things I am allergic to.

    And why don't we focus what caused swine flu in the first place, factory farms. We need to do something about that problem instead of trying to halt the spread of the disease by inoculating people with a vaccine that even many researchers and scientists don't want to take......
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56wuIgJGvrM
    (up to 1/3 of medical personnel in the UK don't want to take it....)

  36. #36

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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    I have been offered the Swine Flu vaccine as a keyworker and the normal flu shot. I have refused both, the first as I do not believe it has been properly tested for long term effects on humans and it has side effects that can be worse than the flu itself. I am sensible enough to not go into work when I am ill and have no underlying health issues so I feel me reveiving a flu shot is just as risky as crossing the road or walking round where I work late at night!! It is only my personal opinion that every person who takes a vaccination shot when they do not need too is putting more money into the coffers of animal testers. Yes I am a martyr and will not take medication that is animal tested or funds animal testers. I am not sure what I will do in a life and death situation as I have not been there since being vegan and can only speculate what I would do. All I do know is that I have been in absolute agony all week as I will not take animal cruel medication when I do not have too.
    Aain this is just my own opinion and does not necessarily reflect those of other vegans or society at large. It ,may not seem logical or sensible, but personal opinions rarely are.

    Good for you for standing up to your principles and being an independent thinker instead of going along with the herd mentality.

  37. #37
    Johnstuff's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Quote gracefulswan View Post
    And why don't we focus what caused swine flu in the first place, factory farms. We need to do something about that problem...
    Well said! My thoughts exactly.

    Supprise supprise, there seems to be little or no change in animal factory farming since swine flu or bird flu.


    A thought I have just had regarding the healthcare workers getting the SF vaccine:
    If one refuses to get the vaccine then they may be puting others (including vunerable) at risk of catching flu from them.
    If they get the vaccine then animals have definitely been harmed in its production.

  38. #38
    Mahk
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Quote gracefulswan View Post
    There's also this raging debate about vaccinations potentially causing allergy/asthma/autism problems as we mess with young immune systems from birth.
    There is no debate in the medical and scientific community, they universally agree vaccines are overall safe and effective, only in the lay public community is there any debate but seeing as I'm the only one in this thread who stands up for science and back my claims with links, I'm tired of fighting for the truth without anyone else supporting the position of science. Does science sometimes make mistakes? Occasionally, yes, but that doesn't mean we should turn our backs on their recommendations and go by popular opinion polls or our horoscopes instead. We also have systems in place such as VAERS to constantly monitor if there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

    The rumors of autism for instance can all be traced to a single, now discredited study the Lancet has apologized for having published without doing more fact checking, where the author, Wakefield, unethically denounced a particular MMR vaccinne using manipulated data because he was being funded by a rival vaccine company trying to get their alternative product to market! link


    hat even many researchers and scientists don't want to take......
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56wuIgJGvrM
    (up to 1/3 of medical personnel in the UK don't want to take it....)
    Actually the group polled were "nurses", not researchers and scientists. In a poll conducted back in August, before over 8,000 people had died from swine flu and 65 million doses hadn't been distributed without a single case of death and only mild side effects having been reported, 1/3 of British nurses who probably didn't even know the name of the vaccine or who would make it at that point said they planned not to, 1/3 were unsure, and 1/3 third said they would take it. This is an excellent story to put spin on for anti-vaxers though.


    I personally don't go by ill informed people and popularity polls but instead the combined knowledge of the current general medical community, such as 14,000 members of the CDC, the NHS, and the AMA.

  39. #39
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Quote Mahk View Post
    OOpps, did I say 4000? My data was a couple of months old, the current worldwide figure is double that, 8,452, not to mention 100's of thousands of illnesses, so nothing to worry about. Kind of silly this even makes news headlines and has officially been deemed a worldwide pandemic by the World Health Organization, considering how unimportant it is.
    How many dead from regular flu?

    Quote Mahk View Post
    The vaccine [Tamiflu] itself leads onto flu-like symptoms which has killed previous clients of mine, it is not just sore injection sites for some.
    No tamiflu is not a vaccine, rather a tablet taken after infection from suspected swine flu. I have worked with people susceptible to flu and have died from side effects, this being lowered immunity when they have received flu vaccine. This was from previous flu immunisation programmes not the current swine flu one as most of my clients have refused it.

    Please do not add onto my posts with what you believe I meant to say. I am quite delighted that you feel I am paranoid, it means the people are after me! I am sceptical of a lot of things but am very realistic of the real world. I did ask if you were aware of the LONG term effects not if 65 000 000 recently immunised people have shown any long term effects in the last few months.
    Last edited by Buddha Belly; Dec 1st, 2009 at 08:57 PM.

  40. #40
    Mahk
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    How many dead from regular flu?
    I don't know.
    Please do not add onto my posts with what you believe I meant to say.
    Sorry if I misunderstood you. Please define in this following sentence which exact flu vaccine, by name, you saw kill some of your previous clients:

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    I know people who have had tamiflu and had worse aide effects than they had with the flu, they received it too late to do any good anyway. The vaccine itself leads onto flu-like symptoms which has killed previous clients of mine, it is not just sore injection sites for some.
    Last edited by Mahk; Dec 1st, 2009 at 09:55 PM.

  41. #41
    missbettie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    generally speaking in the US about 36,000 people die each year from the seasonal flu. WAAAY more than people have died from the swine flu, but supposedly the Swine Flu is going to hit harder in the spring time.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  42. #42
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Quote Mahk View Post
    I don't know.
    Sorry if I misunderstood you. Please define in this following sentence which exact flu vaccine, by name, you saw kill some of your previous clients:

    WTF!!! How the hell am I supposed to know the name of the flu vaccine that done it? Harry? George? The only reason I know tamiflu (not a vaccine) is because of it's hype. I am not in the NHS, so am sadly not privy to the name for vaccines. Who said I SAW them die, I was a keyworker who was part of a wider team that they died under. Your way of twisting other people's language is another way of trying to make a point. Again please do not add onto my posts to say what you want them to say.

    This is what I know, and to be honest I could not give a hairy rats arse if you believe me or not.

    In the course of flu vaccines. Most of my clients developed 'mild' flu. By mild I mean some were in bed and not able to move for at least a week. Whilst immunity was down, other issues killed them. Can you understand that? Is that putting it clearly enough. Or do you want me to produce autopsy reports?

    In the post you are happy to rip apart I should of pressed return and clearly defined a change from Tamiflu (not a vaccine, again) but the usual generic flu vaccine, The joys of using an iphone to post means lots of predictive text typos and complete disregard for grammar on a 1inch keyboard.


    Have you read my previous post?

    How many have died from normal flu?
    You don't know? But you are able to say that vaccination works? By saying less people die due to vaccination is very well and good if you are aware of how many would otherwise die.

    How many people die from issues after their immunity has been diminished after receiving the flu vaccine? Not just swine but any flu vaccine?

    Again you will not know. Please give me evidence that people can not die from health issues already possessed by the flu vaccine recipient?

  43. #43
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Quote missbettie View Post
    generally speaking in the US about 36,000 people die each year from the seasonal flu. WAAAY more than people have died from the swine flu, but supposedly the Swine Flu is going to hit harder in the spring time.

    In the UK it was going to kill thousands in the autumn, which has just gone.

    Bird flu was due to kill 75,000 in the UK over 2008
    Swine Flu is due to kill 65,000 this year

  44. #44
    cobweb
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Disabled...rt/DG_10026664

    I was just wondering, if vaccines are 'universally accepted as safe' why we have this ^ payment scheme in the UK????

  45. #45
    missbettie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    In the UK it was going to kill thousands in the autumn, which has just gone.

    Bird flu was due to kill 75,000 in the UK over 2008
    Swine Flu is due to kill 65,000 this year
    thats crazy...are they still diagnosing people with the Swine Flu there? Cause most of the times here they will just tell you its Swine with out even testing you for it, because its so simliar to the regular flu. Everyone I know that has had the flu wasn't even tested for swine...doctors just say, "yep your sick, go home, rest, and drink liquids."

    I really don't think the swine flu has killed too many in the US...well one death is enough, but I mean compared to the regular flu.

    As for me...I won't get any flu shots, the only way I would, would be if my health was compromised, if I was pregnant, or if I worked with small children (or if a doctor recommended me to). I just figure if I'm going to get sick I'm going to get sick, and as long as I take care of myself properly I should be okay...hopefully...
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  46. #46
    Mahk
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    Who said I SAW them die, I was a keyworker who was part of a wider team that they died under. Your way of twisting other people's language is another way of trying to make a point. Again please do not add onto my posts to say what you want them to say.[/B]
    I didn't mean you saw them literally die with your eyes, I meant you were aware that they were killed:

    The vaccine itself leads onto flu-like symptoms which has killed previous clients of mine, it is not just sore injection sites for some.
    ---
    n the course of flu vaccines. Most of my clients developed 'mild' flu. By mild I mean some were in bed and not able to move for at least a week. Whilst immunity was down, other issues killed them. Can you understand that? Is that putting it clearly enough. Or do you want me to produce autopsy reports?
    With your refusal to name the compound that "harmed them" it's pointless to continue or address any aspects of "the mysterious vaccine X that killed them."

    Have you read my previous post?

    How many have died from normal flu?
    You don't know? But you are able to say that vaccination works? By saying less people die due to vaccination is very well and good if you are aware of how many would otherwise die.

    The reason we know it works is because the people who are immunized have a tiny fraction of the incidence of the disease than the non-immunized community. It's not bullet proof 100%, but it is statistically unarguably quite successful.

    How many people die from issues after their immunity has been diminished after receiving the flu vaccine? Not just swine but any flu vaccine? An infinitely smaller number than the number that are saved from taking the vaccine.

    Again you will not know. Yes we know from comparing a randomly selected number of non-immunized people and comparing how many of them fell ill without the vaccine. If the same percentage fell ill then we can safely assume the vaccine itself wasn't a contributing factor to the alternative immunity diminished illness you fear. Please give me evidence that people can not die from health issues already possessed by the flu vaccine recipient?
    Huh? You lost me on what you mean.
    ---

    I'm out of here but thought to leave one more bit of info, again from scientists so if they are out to get us this info should be dismissed as a lie intended to harm us:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-mild-flu.html

    Turns out people who are afraid of contracting Gullian Barre syndrome should take vaccines, not shun them! great stuff. bye.

  47. #47
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Mahk as a non medical professional. How would I know what compound a vaccine is? It is the same as asking you to answer a technicality about my profession. How many outside of medical circles can name a vaccine's compound name?
    I can only report what I know, some people can have lowered immunities when Ill after receiving a flu shot. Why you continue to insist it is the shot itself that kills them is beyond me.
    How many people die from other issues due to a lowered immunity after eceiving any flu shot?

  48. #48
    Mahk
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    ^I'm not here anymore so please don't ask these or any other questions of me; they will go unanswered. Please don't think I'm "ignoring you", BB, I just don't wish to participate in a thread were I am pretty much the sole voice for the "opinion" of general medical science as "propagandized" in such sites as:

    UK: http://pandemicflu.bmj.com/resources...sked-questions

    http://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/FAQs

    http://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/About..._herd_immunity

    Official on going safety monitoring/reporting organization for vaccines for the UK, the MHRA

    Europe:
    http://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/healtht..._outbreak.aspx

    US: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/

    http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/h1n1...-vs-h1n1.shtml

    http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Public...htm#protection

    Official on going safety monitoring/reporting organization for vaccines in the US, the VAERS

    Any further questions you or anyone else has of me would simply be reiterations from these sites, so you might as well ask them directly to them, rather than going through me.
    ---

    Once again as a caveat I'd like to warn people that if the government is out to get us, or if the combined knowledge of the tens of thousands of scientists, doctors, and researchers which write these websites is inferior in quality to some other source one trusts better which contradicts them (such as gut intuition, word of mouth, or a favorite blogger or website), then one can safely assume these links I've provided are simply a collection of lies.

    Ta everyone!
    Last edited by Mahk; Dec 2nd, 2009 at 09:05 PM.

  49. #49
    cobweb
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Quote cobweb View Post
    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Disabled...rt/DG_10026664

    I was just wondering, if vaccines are 'universally accepted as safe' why we have this ^ payment scheme in the UK????

    just quoting myself here for Mahk, i wondered what your thoughts were on the above?
    (i know that you're not really here but it seems such a shame to waste your limitless knowledge on these matters )

  50. #50
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: The Flu Shot. Curious about some opinions...

    Hi all

    Despite what we're asked to believe, doctors and scientists don't always get it right. I'm old enough to remember the early 1960s when Thalidomide was withdrawn as a prescription drug for pregnant women. It was realised that over a long period of time, it had been responsible for causing severe birth defects, for instance missing limbs, in many thousands of babies.

    Not saying that extreme cases like this happen a lot, but they happen.

    lv

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