Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 335

Thread: [Several multi-question threads, closed]

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    SOUTH FLORIDA!
    Posts
    5

    Default [Several multi-question threads, closed]

    I'm not really sure where this goes- I hope its in the right spot. I'm a new vegan and I had some questions as to the things I've been eating and where I can find vegan versions of them.


    Some of these questions may sound stupid, but I honestly don't know the answers!

    1. Pasta and sauce. What are good vegan options?

    2. Soda. I have a slight addiction to diet coke, I'm assuming that this is not okay.

    3. Pudding mix, the instant kind- made with soymilk, is it okay?

    4. what are some things I need to look for on labels to know if something is vegan or not? Is there a master list?

    I don't cook, and I know this could be a problem, as I see great vegan recepies posted here- but I go to school and work full time and don't really have preparation time. I'm looking more at going on a shopping trip and stocking up on foods I know are vegan that are easy to prepare and quick.

    Any help would be really, really appreciated!

  2. #2
    feline01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    ?
    Posts
    874

    Default

    It would help if you updated your profile and let people know where you live since this is an international forum and vegan products differ depending on your location.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    SOUTH FLORIDA!
    Posts
    5

    Default

    I updated. Sorry about that- I also noticed that I put this thread in the wrong place.

  4. #4
    MzNatural's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    240

    Default

    Quote ayamisuka

    1. Pasta and sauce. What are good vegan options?
    This link is a good source for finding what is Vegan. I would still recommend reading the back of the labels since occasionally products do change and the ingredients might no longer be Vegan.

    2. Soda. I have a slight addiction to diet coke, I'm assuming that this is not okay.
    Sugar substitutes are unhealthy and best to be avoided here is a link. If you have a craving for a carbonated drink you could make one with fruit juice or herbal tea mixed with carbonated water

    3. Pudding mix, the instant kind- made with soymilk, is it okay?
    Check the ingredients to be sure it is vegan.

    4. what are some things I need to look for on labels to know if something is vegan or not? Is there a master list?
    You will find information about nonvegan ingredients on this thread.

    I would try to eliminate as many processed foods from your daily intake and incorporate whole foods in your daily intake, vegetables, fruits, and grains are wonderful. If you have the time it might be a great idea to set one day aside to make a few bulk meals so you can have during the week.


    Welcome to the forum!

  5. #5
    baffled harpy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,655

    Default

    Hi there - To have with your pasta, you may be able to get vegan pesto (made with nuts rather than cheese) and also vegan tomato sauces in jars. Stick some beans (which can be out of a can) in with your pasta too and you will have a nice nourishing meal without the need for cheese. It will be even nicer if you stir in a few fresh veg with the sauce (eg sliced broccoli and carrots) - you don't need to cook them.

    If you're stuck, let me know - even though I'm in the UK I have a vegan friend in Miami so I might be able to get you some brand names for sauces etc.

    Making your own food from first principles saves label reading and is not much effort once you get into the way of it. I don't really like cooking either but I can usually knock something up in a few minutes.

    Good luck

  6. #6
    feline01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    ?
    Posts
    874

    Default

    There's some quick and easy vegan meals for busy vegans like hummus sandwiches, nut butters, grilled veggies, salads. Keep unsalted nuts, dried fruit on hand for snacks when busy. I know in FL, you have access to some great, fresh produce. That's the perfect basis for a healthy vegan diet.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    SOUTH FLORIDA!
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Thanks for all your help so far!

    Another dumb question....Salt? Vegan or not?

  8. #8
    ♥♥♥ Tigerlily's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Atlantic Canada
    Posts
    3,920

    Default

    Yup, I believe it is. But salt is something you should cut down on .... but I'm like addicted to it.

  9. #9
    I eve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    2,210

    Default

    Yes do cut out salt, and while you're at it, as you mention "a slight addiction to diet coke", why not cut out coke completely, and drink water instead?
    Eve

  10. #10
    cedartree cedarblue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,964

    Default

    yu could always try watering your diet coke down so that it tastse so yukky you cant stand the taste any more and stop drinking it

  11. #11
    Kiva Dancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Right here, right now
    Posts
    360

    Default

    First of all, welcome to the forum. I'm in US, too so I can help a bit.

    1. Pasta and sauce. What are good vegan options? Hunt's spaghetti sauce is really good and it's vegan so long as you avoid the meat or cheese flavours. I like the mushroom flavour. It's really good and it goes with every veggie and bean I throw in (cause ya can't have just sauce, you have to dress it up a little).

    2. Soda. I have a slight addiction to diet coke, I'm assuming that this is not okay. You're assuming right. The health problems associated with colas are waaayy to numerious to list here but suffice it to say that coke is the worst thing to do to yourself. Water is your best bet. Water (or carbonated water) with something else mixed in is your second-best bet.

    3. Pudding mix, the instant kind- made with soymilk, is it okay? I'm not sure about this one but I think pudding mixes have whey or gelatin in them. I hardly buy the stuff so maybe someone else can answer that for you.

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    SOUTH FLORIDA!
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Thanks so much!

    I found something that I like a lot-

    flour tortillas (I was assured by my cousin that they are vegan), old el paso fat-free re-fried beans and salsa, accompanied by a salad. It's really good. I also shopped for vegan snacks - so far so good!

    The only thing I would say is that people that don't know yet that I'm vegan are still getting me things that I'm not eating now- my boss brought me doughnuts and coffee with cream in it today...I just sneakily poured out the coffee and didn't eat the doughnuts. Tomorrow I'm going to tell him- I just didn't want him to feel like he wasted money on me today.

    Thanks again for all your help!

  13. #13
    Eating Wildflower's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    912

    Default

    Quote ayamisuka
    I'm not really sure where this goes- I hope its in the right spot. I'm a new vegan and I had some questions as to the things I've been eating and where I can find vegan versions of them.


    Some of these questions may sound stupid, but I honestly don't know the answers!

    1. Pasta and sauce. What are good vegan options?

    2. Soda. I have a slight addiction to diet coke, I'm assuming that this is not okay.

    3. Pudding mix, the instant kind- made with soymilk, is it okay?

    4. what are some things I need to look for on labels to know if something is vegan or not? Is there a master list?

    I don't cook, and I know this could be a problem, as I see great vegan recepies posted here- but I go to school and work full time and don't really have preparation time. I'm looking more at going on a shopping trip and stocking up on foods I know are vegan that are easy to prepare and quick.

    Any help would be really, really appreciated!
    1) For pasta sauce, most marinaras I have seen in the US are vegan, but read the labels. I have had people make me pasta and marinara and use weird tinned brands that had meat in them. (hunt's maybe?)

    I like Barilla. I usually buy Garlic and Mushroom or Green and Black Olive. Spagetti sauce can be loaded with sugar, and if you are cooking for one it may be easier to just throw a chopped tomato, prechopped garlic (in jars in the produce section), and a splash of wine or water on top of pasta and microwaving it. Add olive oil if desired. Truly less time then heating sauce and better tasting and better for you.

    2) I don't consider Diet Coke to be vegan. In the US most sugar is refined with bone char and I have read (mainly on another veggie board ) of people avoiding this and using artifical sweetners instead. Artifical sweetners may not contain fragments of bone char, but they are TESTED ON ANIMALS.

    Drink juice, soymilk, or water. here is a good one - glass of ice, wash a lime with soap and water and cut a wedge off - squeeze into the ice and drop the rhine in. Add 1/2 glass of fortified orange juice, top with seltzer water and a few frozen cherries. lime and orange are great together - who knew!

    3) I am not sure what brand of pudding you are using. I know Jello brand doesn't acutally contain gelatin, but I would guess it would have whey or powdered milk. you will have to read the labels.

    4) you can buy books that are practically encyclopedias of animal products. I find it easier just to buy products with a few ingredients. Everyone (hopefully) knows that if something contains nothing but strawberries it is vegan. Easier to work this way. Visit your local HFS.

    There are lots of easy to prepare meals that are vegan and even frozen dinners. check out www.AmysKitchen.com All products are vegetarian - made without eggs/fish/poultry/meat. Some products have dairy or honey, but they mark the vegan ones as vegan.

  14. #14
    snoopcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    5

    Default Questions about going vegan (several multi-question threads, closed)

    Hi guys, thanks for helping me out with my questions last time. I was wondering about a few more things:

    1) Is diet soda vegan? I know that technically its bad for you, but I love it.
    2) What is the deal with sugar? Its not vegan in some instances? If its not, then how come foods like frosted flakes are vegan?
    3) Is soy actually bad for you? I don't want to overconsume something if its a potential health risk, but I really love tofu and soy milk.
    4) This one is kind of ridiculous, but is it possible that plant estrogens could make your boobs get bigger? I swear my boobs seem bigger since I started eating soy products. overshare I know, but I'm serious!

    Thanks!

  15. #15
    John's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    NJ USA
    Posts
    714

    Default

    1) I doubt it. You never know with secret ingedients.

    2) Sometimes they use animal bones to refine sugar. Try to use organic sugar or tubinado sugar.

    3) There is a chemical in soy, present in small amounts, which is toxic.
    The thing is, many, if not most vegetables have some type of toxic chemical in them. It's just the way things are. However, when they isolate soy bean protein to make certain products, the concentration of the toxic chemical could go up, depending on the process. We have talked about it somewhere on this forum

    4) I doubt it. Although I imagine that there might be some type of hormonal change (balance perhaps) that occurs when we stop consuming cow milk and chicken periods.

  16. #16
    Kiva Dancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Right here, right now
    Posts
    360

    Default

    Hi guys, thanks for helping me out with my questions last time. I was wondering about a few more things:

    1) Is diet soda vegan? I know that technically its bad for you, but I love it.Give up the diet soda. The stuff is soooooo unhealthy on so many levels that veganness is almost a moot point, here. You don't want that stuff in your body so get rid of it now.

    2) What is the deal with sugar? Its not vegan in some instances? If its not, then how come foods like frosted flakes are vegan? Sugar is filtered with bone char. Some consider this vegan because the bones do not end up in the final product while others consider it not vegan because of what the sugar is filtered with. As John said, if this is an issue for you, there are sugars you can buy that are not bone-char filtered.

    3) Is soy actually bad for you? I don't want to overconsume something if its a potential health risk, but I really love tofu and soy milk. I believe soy is not bad for you, however, overconsumption of any food is not terribly healthy. Even water, consumed in overly large quantities is not good for the body. I would no more base my diet around soy than I would base my diet around excessive amounts of water.

    4) This one is kind of ridiculous, but is it possible that plant estrogens could make your boobs get bigger? I swear my boobs seem bigger since I started eating soy products. overshare I know, but I'm serious! Did you also have this reaction when you were eating cabbage or beans? They also have plant estrogens. Soy does not make breast size increase anymore than cabbage does and if cabbage made a bra size bigger, I would have ingested TONNES by now.
    It's vegan, which means it's vegetarian which means there's nothing unheathy in it. -- my guy trying to explain vegan junkfood.

  17. #17
    ♥♥♥ Tigerlily's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Atlantic Canada
    Posts
    3,920

    Default

    I agree with everyone here says.

    Diet pop is bad, but I'm like you, I'm like addicted to it. You could try to mix carbonated water with juice for a fizzy drink, but I never found it that amazing. Meh.

  18. #18
    FR
    Guest

    Default

    Quote snoopcat
    Hi guys, thanks for helping me out with my questions last time. I was wondering about a few more things:

    1) Is diet soda vegan? I know that technically its bad for you, but I love it.
    2) What is the deal with sugar? Its not vegan in some instances? If its not, then how come foods like frosted flakes are vegan?
    3) Is soy actually bad for you? I don't want to overconsume something if its a potential health risk, but I really love tofu and soy milk.
    4) This one is kind of ridiculous, but is it possible that plant estrogens could make your boobs get bigger? I swear my boobs seem bigger since I started eating soy products. overshare I know, but I'm serious!

    Thanks!
    Soy is not bad for you, unless you have an allergy to it.

    Some sugar is processed through bone char. The bone char is removed from the final product.

    From what I have learned, plant estrogens have no effect on the human body.

    As far as diet soda, most are probably vegan. I'd read over the ingredients and look up anything that you question before consuming it.

    I never knew Frosted Flakes were vegan. I always thought they contained gelatin and vitamin d3.

    ETA ... I see Kiva beat me to answering some of these questions.

  19. #19
    FR
    Guest

    Default

    Actually, I am at work and we do have Frosted Flakes here. There isn't any gelatin in them but they are fortified with vitamin d and iron. Kellogg's may source the iron and vitamin d from an animal source.

  20. #20
    snoopcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Thanks guys...I looked it up online and I'm almost certain frosted flakes are vegan.

  21. #21
    ♥♥♥ Tigerlily's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Atlantic Canada
    Posts
    3,920

    Default

    I love frosted flakes!

  22. #22
    spo
    Guest

    Default

    Quote FR
    From what I have learned, plant estrogens have no effect on the human body.
    Sorry guys -- but plant estrogens do have effects on the body. The largest effect comes from soy, which has the highest concentrations of plant estrogens. There are many products sold, both prescription and over the counter, to treat menopause that contain pharmacologically active doses of plant estrogens. Some are considered "safer" than the chemically produced estrogens. Obviously, for us vegans, the chemically produced kind is horrendous-made from mares' urine in typically exploitive and cruel ways. My husband, who is an Endocrinologist, will only prescribe the soy-based estrogens.
    It is possible to see a slight increase in breast size from eating a lot of soy; but that would have to be A LOT!!! I had a patient, who complained of breast tenderness and size increase (she was already huge!) and it turned out she was consuming a lot of soy products. This does not always present problems, but I do agree with Kiva Dancer, that nothing should be eaten to excess.
    spo

  23. #23
    John's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    NJ USA
    Posts
    714

    Default

    The UK version of Frosted Flakes Is supposedly vegan but I wouldn't trust the vitamin D which is in the American version (and absent in the UK version).

  24. #24
    snoopcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    5

    Default

    haha...that is amazing about the soy products. If I only had known sooner I could have added more to the daily "i must increase my bust" chanting.

  25. #25
    Goddess foxytina_69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,716

    Default

    kiva dancer, why is diet soda so bad for you? (im just wondering what exactly it does to you thats so bad, so i can stay away from it!)
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  26. #26
    gertvegan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bristol, SW England
    Posts
    1,912

    Default

    Quote foxytina_69
    why is diet soda so bad for you?
    foxy, I posted this previously in the Fish in soft drinks!!! thread.

  27. #27
    Goddess foxytina_69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,716

    Default

    thanx gert.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  28. #28
    Got2Pups's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    17

    Default hello, new here and have questions....

    i have been a 'short time' lerker and have decided to join. i am a 25 year young female married to a meat eater. (which whom i cook for!) within the last week i have started moving from my vegatarian way of life (13 years) to a vegan lifestyle. i used to eat eggs, dairy, and seafood. (i grew up on the chesapeake, the daughter of a fisherman)

    anyway, slowly but surely i am beginning to cut these things out. i have started with no milk, eggs, seafood or mono and diglycerides. i am also trying to buy only 'vegan' toiletries. since there are so many things that people are unaware have animal products in them my plan is to learn a few things at a time and slowly cut them out.

    my questions are:

    should i take a multivitamen until i get into 'the swing of things'? (i am not one to normally buy into those things)

    how slowly should i begin to cut things out? can i do this rapidly or does my body need me to take my time with it?

    what does your daily/weekly menu look like?

    do you see a vegan friendly primary care doctor or are most doctor's vegan friendly?

    it is nice, since i live in baltimore and i have plenty of close resources, (whole foods market, Pangea etc) but it is still a challenging transition and any advice for the 'new commer' would be great!

    Got2pups

  29. #29
    kokopelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    wales
    Posts
    381

    Default Re: hello, new here and have questions....

    Hello and congratulations on deciding to become vegan!

    I don't think you need to take multivitamins, you can get enough of all vitamins in a vegan diet EXCEPT vitamin B12, which you can get from tablets, or fortified foods, such as margarine, soya milk, yeast extracts. And if you don't get enough sunlight on your skin, you may also need to be sure to get enough vitamin D, again via supplements or fortified foods. D2 is vegan, D3 is not.

    I know not all vegans agree about this, some people think you can get enough without fortified foods, but personally I think it's a good idea to be sure, because a deficiency can lead to pernicious anaemia and elevated homocysteine levels, which can contribute to the risk of heart disease. Check out the Vitamin B12 and Vitamin D threads.

    I gradually changed from being omnivorous to vegan, but my kids (aged 19, 17 and 12) have been vegan for their whole lives, and they're very healthy.

    We eat a lot of tofu with rice, potatoes, bulgar or pasta and salad.
    Shepherd's pie made wih mashed potato with beans or lentils and vegetables underneath, eaten with broccoli, kale or cabbage.
    Sometimes we have roast dinners with roast potatoes, pumpkin, parsnips, nut roast made from breadcrumbs, onions and ground nuts, carrot, broccli and apple sauce and gravy (yum!).
    And until our toaster caught on fire, we ate a lot of pitta breads with houmous and salad, or avocado, tomato and hot sauce.
    Also burritos are nice filled with salad and refried beans.
    And sprout sandwiches.

    Haven't had much to do with doctors since I was pregnant!


  30. #30
    cedartree cedarblue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,964

    Default Re: hello, new here and have questions....

    HI GOT2PUPS, AND WELCOME

    try this thread for the sort of things folk eat daily.

    if you check out the 'health' threads you will find loads of info about health/vits/supplements etc to help you.

    many of us here graduated from veggie to vegan and a few of us (me included) have spouses who are omnis (my husband is veggie at home though! ) so just ask away if you have any questions or pm me if you wish to talk 'confidentially'.

  31. #31
    Stu
    Guest

    Default Re: hello, new here and have questions....

    Quote kokopelli
    And until our toaster caught on fire...
    sprout sandwiches.
    Nutter.

  32. #32
    kokopelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    wales
    Posts
    381

    Default Re: hello, new here and have questions....

    The flaming toaster was no laughing matter...my kids have been suffering toast withdrawal symptoms ever since

  33. #33
    Got2Pups's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    17

    Default Re: hello, new here and have questions....

    thanks for the responses! it is comforting to know there is a resourse for this sort of thing. so many of my family/friends/co-workers are haveing trouble adjusting/understanding my lifestyle change. it is nice to know i can get some straight answers to my questions.


    .......and i am sorry to hear about your toaster.
    "The fact that man knows right from wrong proves
    his intellectual superiority to the other creatures;
    but the fact that he can do wrong proves
    his moral inferiority to any creatures that cannot"

  34. #34
    Geoff
    Guest

    Default Re: hello, new here and have questions....

    Quote kokopelli
    And until our toaster caught on fire, we ate a lot of pitta breads with houmous and salad, or avocado, tomato and hot sauce.
    Also burritos are nice filled with salad and refried beans.
    And sprout sandwiches.
    I've got a toaster that you're welcome to. (I use a gas grill as I don't trust electrickery)

  35. #35
    tails4wagging
    Guest

    Default Re: hello, new here and have questions....

    Hi, and welcome. You are very brave handling and cooking dead animals!!. I could not do that!. Divorce him dear!!!

  36. #36
    kokopelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    wales
    Posts
    381

    Default Re: hello, new here and have questions....

    Quote Geoff
    I've got a toaster that you're welcome to. (I use a gas grill as I don't trust electrickery)
    Thanks for your kind offer...but I fear postage would be astronomical!

    Is your computer gas-powered?

  37. #37
    Aurora's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Essex
    Posts
    177

    Default Re: hello, new here and have questions....

    Quote tails4wagging
    Hi, and welcome. You are very brave handling and cooking dead animals!!. I could not do that!. Divorce him dear!!!
    Don't do that! I also have a family who eat dead animals, but I don't hold that against them as I love them for who they are and not what they eat!

    Welcome to the forum

  38. #38

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Austria, Europe
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: hello, new here and have questions....

    hey, I also just joined the forum. I'm a twenty-one year old girl who just became vegan at the beginning of this year. My boyfriend also eats meat, but I wouldn't cook this stuff nor buy it for him. He's been cutting his meat intake for quite a while, I hope I can get him to be a vegetarian, and later on, a vegan.
    Good luck for you Got2Pups, stop cooking that meat for him, perhaps he will stop eating it then (my boyfriend couldn't handle raw meat himself, i had to cut it, because he thinks it's disgusting, now I wouldn't do it, so no things like that any more).

  39. #39
    amphibianlegume
    Guest

    Default Some questions from a potential vegan

    My family have been vegetarian for 100 years in 2 years time, and I have been considering switching my branch of the family to veganism. I was a matter of weeks from doing this when I came into contact with a vegan that was trolling a festival website that I lurk on. This troll was very unwilling to answer the boarders of that forums questions, especially if they were difficult ones. She just repeated her self ad-infinitum and her attitude has done the vegan cause some serious damage on that forum.

    I had rather incorrectly thought of veganism as vegetarianism minus dairy and eggs.

    The vegan troll was subjected to much of the normal rubbish that us vegans and vegetarians face (posted images of veal calves and the likes) but along with the normal crap some very difficult and intelligent questions were raised. Her posts and the links she provided have left me with some serious doubts about veganism, the diet I was just about to embark my whole family on. Anyway some of my concerns have remained unanswered and I wondered if I might be able to get intelligent replies here, so that I may finally make the decision whether to switch or not. So here are my worries.


    1. Honey.

    Veganism does not permit the use of honey, now essentially this is because no animal products are exploited -- but the vegansociety's information about honey contains many 'facts' that simply aren't true -- such as wing clipping of queens, which is entirely unncessary, and not something inherent to bee keeping.

    Currently I am a beekeeper, and I realise that when/if I become a vegan I will have to give up my bees, but I have a deep concern here. Bees are such a vital and fundamental creature, without them entire ecosystems collapse in a matter of years. But it is now impossible for the honeybee to survive without human intervention (this is man's fault but the damage is done) so what happens when we abandone beekeeping? Even if I was to keep my bees, as bee companions, I would have to do many things that go against the ethos of veganism: swarming would still have to be controlled; early honey, which comes from oil seed rape, would still have to be removed as it sets too hard for the bees to use and clutters up the limited space they have; diseased colonies would still have to be destroyed.

    If my bees go, I am also worried about reduced pollination of my crops.

    So that is my first dilemma.


    2. Use of plastics.

    I try to be as self-sufficient as possible, and I avoid plastics and artificial fibres as much as possible. At the moment I use wool that I collect from hedges and heather to make my clothing. I am confused as to why it is unacceptable for me to use the cast off hair of an animal. Isn't this wasteful and unecological to forego a natural product, the use of which has harmed no animal, in favour of artificial fibres, or natural ones that have come from the other side of the planet. Especially as it is my understanding that many plastics contain animal products anyway -- accept unlike my collected wool this animal fat came from the meat industry.

    The vegan troll said I could not use wool because it belongs to the animal that shed it, but she admitted to throwing away her cats discarded hair.


    3. Pets (companion animals)

    This vegan troll kept a pair of cats, she fed them both on a vegan diet and prevented them from hunting.

    Is this normal practice for vegans, or just particularly extreme behaviour. It seems wrong to me to feed a natural carnivore on a diet of your choosing and prevent the animal from expressing its natural desire to hunt. Afterall veganism is opposed to the exploitation of animals, the shackling or containment of them, so why is it okay to control your feline companion in this way. To impose your human belief systems on them seems to be asserting your dominance. Can anyone shed any light on this for me, advise me whether it is okay to feed my feline companions meat -- if it isn't okay then I would argue it is unvegan to keep a carnivorous animal at all.


    4. Vegetable farming

    I grow vast amounts of vegetables, and am an accredited organic producer. Currently I kill, or facilitate the deaths of millions of aphids, slugs, flies, caterpillers and the like every year -- much of my produce is sold to vegans who perhaps have not thought about the huge destruction I met out on the animal kingdom to produce my goods. If I become vegan, what methods do I use to control pests? Without control I would produce barely anything. Also currently my animals, provide a very important source of organic fertilisers -- where do I get these fertilisers from instead?

    For example I keep three pigs, they are my most important animal, as they turn all my organic waste into manure and they can be turned out into a field to dig up roots, effectively plowing it for me. If I stop keeping these pigs then I'll have to buy manure from another farmer (but this manure will be a bi-product of the meat industry). But if I carry on keeping the pigs, I will have to stop them breeding, restrict their movements and eventually buy new pigs from a meat farmer.

    I also have two dozen chickens, what do I do with them if I switch -- what do I do with the eggs they lay? Do I just compost them? Is it okay to compost the unfertlised eggs, if they belong to the chicken. And if I am simply going to dispose of them, why not give them away to someone that will eat them. The chickens don't want them. I understand the arguments against dairy, but I can't understand the egg problem.

    5. Supplements

    Is it possible for me and my children to live healthily without supplements, I really don't want to take anything unnatural into my diet, nor rely on goods I have to bring in from elsewhere.


    There were many other concerns but these are my main ones, I appreciate any guidance, or help you can offer me and sorry if you have been over all this many times before.

  40. #40
    Kumem's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Peterborough, UK
    Posts
    336

    Default Re: Some questions from a potential vegan

    Hi

    Being quite new to veganism, there are people a lot more informed on these areas than I am, but I wanted to talk about the fifth point that you make regarding supplements, simply because I am currently reading a book that is relevant to this.
    Thousands of years ago, when we were hunter/gatherers, we used so much more energy and therefore needed to consume so many more calories - up to 4,500 per day. Because of this, we managed to get all of the vital vitamins and minerals that our bodies needed. Today, we rely on processed food in the main (the vast majority of the general public) and the typical diet is pretty unhealthy. However, even if you ate what was considered a perfect diet, it would be difficult to consistenty obtain all of the essential vitamins and minerals that you need. This is even more important as you get older and your body is less able to produce certain things itself. The (very long winded) point that I am trying to make is that I do not consider taking supplements unhealthy. I do think it is even more important for people fed on a typical western diet, which includes meat and dairy, than it is for a vegan though. IMO a vegan diet is nutritionally superior to the standard western diet anyway, but I still supplement.

    Liz

  41. #41
    amphibianlegume
    Guest

    Default Re: Some questions from a potential vegan

    Quote Kumem
    Hi

    Being quite new to veganism, there are people a lot more informed on these areas than I am, but I wanted to talk about the fifth point that you make regarding supplements, simply because I am currently reading a book that is relevant to this.
    Thousands of years ago, when we were hunter/gatherers, we used so much more energy and therefore needed to consume so many more calories - up to 4,500 per day. Because of this, we managed to get all of the vital vitamins and minerals that our bodies needed. Today, we rely on processed food in the main (the vast majority of the general public) and the typical diet is pretty unhealthy. However, even if you ate what was considered a perfect diet, it would be difficult to consistenty obtain all of the essential vitamins and minerals that you need. This is even more important as you get older and your body is less able to produce certain things itself. The (very long winded) point that I am trying to make is that I do not consider taking supplements unhealthy. I do think it is even more important for people fed on a typical western diet, which includes meat and dairy, than it is for a vegan though. IMO a vegan diet is nutritionally superior to the standard western diet anyway, but I still supplement.

    Liz

    Thanyou for posting.

    I understand your point, but I am not willing to supplement my diet as I want to be self-sufficient, for me a natural diet must be one that I can produce myself (or my animal companions can produce for me). I had not given much thought to this problem when I first thought of becoming vegan, but I am concerned that a switch to a vegan diet may well be healthier than what most people are eating but not healthier than my current vegetarian diet. I eat no processed or imported food at all -- and when I say imported I mean from outside my farm.

    Is B12 the only vitamin/mineral that I am going to experience difficulty obtaining, or are there more?

    I am aware that I can obtain a tiny amount of B12 by simply not washing my vegetables very well, but does anyone know if this would be sufficient for myself and my young children?

  42. #42
    Kumem's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Peterborough, UK
    Posts
    336

    Default Re: Some questions from a potential vegan

    Hi

    I have no idea about specific supplements without my book and it is at home, as I am working (or supposed to be), but lots of other people will know more anyway and I'm sure you'll get a good response.

    I don't know how you will be able to continue with the other things that you refer to: keeping bees, pigs, chickens etc. I don't know many vegan farmers!

    Being vegan for most people is not just about not causing any harm to animals, it is about the understanding that these animals are not ours to do with what we choose. The bees that you have do not 'choose' to be with you and neither do the other animals, regardless of how well you treat them. You wouldn't 'keep' a person because they have the ability to say they don't want to be kept. I have a point there somewhere, but no matter how I type it, I can't articulate it properly

  43. #43
    amphibianlegume
    Guest

    Default Re: Some questions from a potential vegan

    I understand that the vegan ethos is that nothing belonging to the animal is ours to take or exploit. But vegans share their lives with companion animals, such as cats and dogs; really what I want to know is is it unvegan to have bees as your companion animal. And is this more unvegan than the practice of forcing a carnivorous pet to eat a vegan diet.

    Unfortunately the inadvertent introduction of a mite called Varroa, means that a honeybee colony cannot survive without human intervention. I am understandably concerened that to become vegan I either have to destroy my bee colony (kill them -- which is obviously not an option), sell them (to someone that will exploit them) or leave them to die slowly without my intervention.

    Why do the vegan society dwell on aspects of beekeeping that cause suffering, when none of these practices are necessary to beekeeping, surely if it purely about not taking what is not ours then these unnecessary practices are irrelevant to the argument.

    I'm getting increasingly concerned that a vegan diet is not for me, it looks like it may actually be ecologically unsustainable. As without beekeepers the wild bee (non-honeybee population) alone would be incapable of producing the necessary pollination. Without animals (the manure they produce) I cannot maintain the fertility of my soil.

    I had thought that veganism was the answer to the planet's food problems, but it seems this view may be wrong.

    Incidentally is it okay for me to use animal manure, and is the source of the manure important to the vegan midset?

  44. #44
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,830

    Default Re: Some questions from a potential vegan

    Amphibianlegume, IMHO it matters very little whether someone calls themselvesa vegan or not.

    When you enter this forum by critizising a vegan you have come across, mentioning that you have some serious doubts about veganism, that the veganism is ecologically unsustainable, that you are getting increasingly concerned that a vegan diet is not for you, and that unfortunately veganism isn't the answer to the planet's food problem, the chance that you'll ever agree with being vegan is very small. Therefore , I must admit I have a hard time understanding why you are
    considering switching your branch of the family to veganism
    If someone feel that they are being 'switched' to anything by someone, isn't it very likely that they'll just oppose it anyway?

    Nevertheless, I'll comment on some of the issues you bring up, for those who might be interested.

    Quote amphibianlegume
    Veganism does not permit the use of honey, now essentially this is because no animal products are exploited -- but the vegansociety's information about honey contains many 'facts' that simply aren't true -- such as wing clipping of queens, which is entirely unncessary, and not something inherent to bee keeping.
    First of all, veganism isn't about 'permitting', this is no religion. 'Vegan' is a term used about people who have found out that they don't want to participate in harming or killing animals, and who try their best to avoid this as much as possible. If you think The Vegan Society provide incorrect info about bees, you should contact them.

    Even if I was to keep my bees, as bee companions, I would have to do many things that go against the ethos of veganism: swarming would still have to be controlled; early honey, which comes from oil seed rape, would still have to be removed as it sets too hard for the bees to use and clutters up the limited space they have; diseased colonies would still have to be destroyed.
    According to yourself, you don't harm bees in any ways, so why would you change anything at all? However, I don't get it. You say that you don't harm them, but you need to destroy whole colonies?

    I try to be as self-sufficient as possible, and I avoid plastics and artificial fibres as much as possible.
    Sounds great, really. Many vegans will agree that natural fibers are the best solution. But doesn't 'self-sufficient' mean not being dependent on your pigs, bees, chicken and eggs?

    I am confused as to why it is unacceptable for me to use the cast off hair of an animal.
    Vegans are against harming animals, against limiting their freedom to live a happy life. If you find some wool from an animal or some hair from a human, and want to make a jacket out of that, you are not harming anyone, are you? If you force a human to cut his hair, because you want a jacket made of human hair, you are abusing a human. If you force a certain type of life upon sheep because you want their wool, you abuse animals.

    You wouldn't be harming anyone by making gloves from skin from dead humans who died of old age, but most of us don't want that. Most vegans probably wouldn't buy leather from animals that died of old age either, for the same reason that you don't want to wear gloves made from skin from your grandmother.

    This vegan troll kept a pair of cats, she fed them both on a vegan diet and prevented them from hunting.
    Some vegans have pets, some vegans are against having pets. Some vegans have pets they had before they became vegans, other have cats and dogs that otherwise would have been killed if someone didn't want them. We have a thread discussing this topic inside the forum.

    It seems wrong to me to feed a natural carnivore on a diet of your choosing
    In the unnatural situation that a cat is living in NYC, in a mouse-free building, it would be unnatural for a human who is against killing animals to go hunting for mice for her cat. Commercial cat food is containing stuff cats never would eat naturally. It's not natural for a cat to drink cow's milk either. I also understand that 'cat-owners', vegan or not, don't want to have a cat bringing almost dead birds or mice into their homes. All in all, it's an unnatural situation. It's also not natural to try to force a cat not to kill mice, and if the cat is spending a lot of time outdoors, there's not even a way to prevent it (in most cases).

    A number of vegans choose not to have pets for these reasons, so if you really consider going vegan, it looks like you possibly, in the future, would be one of them. You already have cats, what kind of natural diet do they get?

    Currently I kill, or facilitate the deaths of millions of aphids, slugs, flies, caterpillers and the like every year -- much of my produce is sold to vegans who perhaps have not thought about the huge destruction I met out on the animal kingdom to produce my goods. If I become vegan, what methods do I use to control pests?
    I suggest that you try to search for information on bio-dynamic / veganic / 'vegan organic' agriculture. And to those non-vegan readers who think 'why not kill animals for meat, when we unintentionally cause death to insects', please think again. Killing one person/animal/insect unintentionally doesn't justify killing another person/animal/insect intentionally. Don't forget that millions of instects are killed in agriculture that is only meant to provide food for animal farms...

    Also currently my animals, provide a very important source of organic fertilisers -- where do I get these fertilisers from instead?
    As you know, there are companies that make exploiting animals even more profitable by selling 'waste' from the chicken industry as fertilizers. Others, like Duke Energy, use the same 'waste' to sell energy. But see above, above alternative veganic / vegan organic etc.

    For example I keep three pigs, they are my most important animal, as they turn all my organic waste into manure and they can be turned out into a field to dig up roots, effectively plowing it for me.
    As a comment to your question about what you would do with your bees if you should not be a beekeeper anymore (in your original post, before you edited it), what do you do with your pigs and chicken when they get old?

    If I stop keeping these pigs then I'll have to buy manure from another farmer (but this manure will be a bi-product of the meat industry).
    Please check out our thread about manure.

    But if I carry on keeping the pigs, I will have to stop them breeding, restrict their movements and eventually buy new pigs from a meat farmer.
    Why?

    I also have two dozen chickens, what do I do with them if I switch
    Some people in your situation might find someone who wants them, who would have bought/killed some (other) chicken anyway. By giving their own chicken away, they figure that they reduce the chicken trade business by the same amount of chicken that they give away or sell. Others would keep them and let them die of old age. There are other solutions too. What do you think is the best solution?

    what do I do with the eggs they lay? Do I just compost them? Is it okay to compost the unfertlised eggs, if they belong to the chicken. And if I am simply going to dispose of them, why not give them away to someone that will eat them. The chickens don't want them. I understand the arguments against dairy, but I can't understand the egg problem.
    Do what you think is right, but read this thread about vegan view on eggs thread first.


    Is it possible for me and my children to live healthily without supplements
    Whether you eat vegan or not, you need to monitor your B12 levels, due to a lot of circumstances discussed in our four B12 forums. There are many reasons an increasing number of people (vegans, lacto-vegetarians and meat-eaters) get B12 deficient. Some of them are mentioned here: http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196

    I really don't want to take anything unnatural into my diet
    Sounds good. What is your natural B12 source right now?



    Now, please let us know why you, in spite of all your comments, still consider going vegan; you must have a very strong attraction towards veganism since you are still considering it in spite of all your comments... or... you're not here only to argue against veganism, are you?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  45. #45
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,830

    Default Re: Some questions from a potential vegan

    Quote amphibianlegume
    I understand your point, but I am not willing to supplement my diet as I want to be self-sufficient, for me a natural diet must be one that I can produce myself (or my animal companions can produce for me).
    Again, if you think that animals are here for to provide us with nutrients, may I ask you why you are considering going vegan? Where do you think the animals get their nutrients from?

    According to a study, an average meat eater are deficient in seven nutrients, while an average vegan is deficient in three. If you are never exposed to stuff that is reducing B12, like chlorinated water, never eat plants exposed to chemicals that kills micro-organisms and B12 (like acid rain), if you only eat fresh food, and consider millions of other things mentioned in many other posts and on many other sites......... in short, in a natural world, I find it 99% certain that you would get enough B12 from plants, maybe even only from water.

    We are not living in a 'natural' world. This means that people who consume a lot of B12 (meat eaters) also are at risk, because they often drink a lot of coffee, use a lot of sugar much sugar, expose themselves to pollution, maybe tobacco, oral contraceptives and so on. In this world, people are less and less 'B12 safe'.


    I had not given much thought to this problem when I first thought of becoming vegan, but I am concerned that a switch to a vegan diet may well be healthier than what most people are eating but not healthier than my current vegetarian diet.
    Do you mean lacto-vegetarian diet when you write 'vegetarian'? Have you read about all the health risks associated with dairy products? I admire your interest in living a natural life, but (if you mean lacto-veg when you say 'vegetarian') - why is that you find it natural for humans to drink cow's milk, which, as we all know, even adult cow's don't drink? No other animals drink mother's milk all life, and definitely not from another species.


    I eat no processed or imported food at all -- and when I say imported I mean from outside my farm.
    That's great, but where did you find those pigs, if not outside your farm? If they were there when you got them, how did they get there, if not from outside the farm?

    Don't get me wrong... the macrobiotic community focus on eating food grown locally, and that makes a lot of sense to me, at least as a rule to be lived by in a natural world where people won't settle in places where they can't grow the food they need locally.

    I am aware that I can obtain a tiny amount of B12 by simply not washing my vegetables very well, but does anyone know if this would be sufficient for myself and my young children?
    There are no studies showing that this will be sufficient for anyone, and not only that, even if it would be, you wouldn't be safe, because, vegan, lacto-veg or meat eater, you might drink something right now that kills the B12 you consumed 10 minutes ago.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  46. #46
    John's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    NJ USA
    Posts
    714

    Default Re: Some questions from a potential vegan

    I can't really tell if you want help becoming vegan or if you want to debate. I would advise looking at things from the animals' point of view. Try your best not to make them suffer and try to respect their rights as living individuals. For me veganism is the best way. Someone else might walk the highway and scavenge roadkill. That non-vegan might cause less harm than I do. Look around the forum and you might find some answers. I know it is cumbersome but the search button helps.

  47. #47
    kokopelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    wales
    Posts
    381

    Default Re: Some questions from a potential vegan

    Quote amphibianlegume
    4. Vegetable farming

    I grow vast amounts of vegetables, and am an accredited organic producer. Currently I kill, or facilitate the deaths of millions of aphids, slugs, flies, caterpillers and the like every year -- much of my produce is sold to vegans who perhaps have not thought about the huge destruction I met out on the animal kingdom to produce my goods. If I become vegan, what methods do I use to control pests? Without control I would produce barely anything. Also currently my animals, provide a very important source of organic fertilisers -- where do I get these fertilisers from instead?

    For example I keep three pigs, they are my most important animal, as they turn all my organic waste into manure and they can be turned out into a field to dig up roots, effectively plowing it for me. If I stop keeping these pigs then I'll have to buy manure from another farmer (but this manure will be a bi-product of the meat industry). But if I carry on keeping the pigs, I will have to stop them breeding, restrict their movements and eventually buy new pigs from a meat farmer.
    Hello amphibianlegume,

    How do you mete out destruction on your pests?
    How do your current pest control methods fit in with your self-sufficiency aspirations? I mean, do you have to buy in your organic pest controls?

    Why can't you compost your organic waste without feeding it to your pigs?
    If you're a vegetarian, but allow your pigs to breed freely, what will you do with piglets which are surplus to your requirements?

    I'm also involved in horticulture, but we don't use animal manure at all, we cut and compost green stuff, collect leafmould and use green manures. We use barrier methods of pest control, which don't involve killing. However, agricultural fleece may be unacceptable to you, because it's made from polypropylene. Maybe your pig manure is rather high in nitrates, producing lush growth which is more attractive to pests. Manures are also vectors for human diseases, if they're not properly composted.

    Of course some animals will inevitably be killed as a result of our horticultural activities, just as they are in everyday life, eg insects getting squished on car windscreens, but I don't deliberately harm other animals. I believe that minimising harm is a worthwhile goal.

    I agree that it's good to avoid the use of plastics as far as possible, particularly those which will not biodegrade, and while they're produced from mineral oil. But there are developments in plant oil based, biodegradable and fully recyclable plastics and synthetic materials. And sheep's wool, even when collected from hedgerows, comes from sheep bred for meat, which are effectively deforesting our uplands, drastically increasing the risk of flooding in the watersheds. Also plant fibres don't have to be imported from the other side of the world, hemp will grow very well in temperate climates and could easily provide most of our fabric. Following prohibition in the 1930s, the knowledge and equipment necessary for hemp culture and processing was destroyed in the UK and US, but is slowly making a comeback now it's cultivation is permitted in the EU.

    You say you're entirely self-sufficient in food, and this makes you reluctant to depend on supplements for B12. But of course you're currently dependent on the epitome of high technology to read this message. Personally, I see nothing wrong with using B12 which has been produced by industrial methods, I'm dependent on technology in so many ways...I bet you use a car, agricultural machinery etc as well as your computer. But in any case, I've read that B12 can in fact be produced by some plants, notably comfrey, although I've done little research into this myself. But there's loads of stuff about B12 in the B12 thread!
    once in a while you can get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  48. #48

    Default Re: Some questions from a potential vegan

    Actually, I wouldn't debate with the person who started this thread. I believe that he has come off the Glastonbury website to annoy vegans. A vegan started a thread there a while ago, asking if there were other vegans to meet up with her at the festival. Her thread got hijacked by people posting pictures of meat, cartoons of road kill, and abusive comments about how vegans get increasingly stupid as the generations of non animal consumption continue. It got very nasty indeed, and the vegan eventually got annoyed that her thread had been hijacked in such a mean spirited way.

    After that whenever she posted anything she got pounced on by people threatening to come around to her house and butcher a lamb on her doorstep.

    Strangely, the more upset she got, the more she was accused of being a troll.

    Anyhow, reading this guys comments, they do not come across as someone whose family has been veggie for a hundred years. He is remarkably ignorant of vegetarianism. I believe he is one of the people who attacked this other womans thread, and now that she has gone quiet he has come here to take the mickey out of vegans. Hence this ridiculous story that a vegan put him off veganism.

    By the way, I am not the "vegan troll" that he describes. She wrote to me upset asking what she should do, as she had been made to feel so unwelcome, and I wrote as a vegan campaigner to the site to complain about the abusive ganging up on the vegan. It turns out that at least some of the people I was complaining to had joined in on the verbal gang bang, and therefore the victim was banned as being a troll.

    Sadly after a couple of weeks of insulting the vegan in her absence it would appear that they have got bored of insulting vegans behind their back and someone has come to have a laugh at our expense.

    Please could this thread be locked and its author banned? You would have to see what happened on the Glastonbury Festival website to know what I am talking about. Though I imagine some of the more obscene and threatening comments may have been removed.

  49. #49
    peasant terrace max's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Near Skipton, UK
    Posts
    164

    Default Re: Some questions from a potential vegan

    I agree wholeheartedly with what kokopelli has said.

    As an aspiring self-sufficient type myself I have found vegan organic methods work very well for me. Indeed, growing my family's food and the potential of vegan organics is what attracted me to become vegan in the first place.

    The combination of green manures, compost, leafmoulds and shredded branches, when incorporated into a no-dig system, works on both technical and ecological levels. It enables the best realisation of the pragmatic but ethical living which Kokopelli and Korn have outlined. I find the prospect of vegan/organic self sufficiency being adopted more widely in our society a very exciting and hopeful one.

    I sincerely hope you will look at the work of the Vegan Organic Trust and follow your instincts to the next level.

  50. #50
    peasant terrace max's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Near Skipton, UK
    Posts
    164

    Default Re: Some questions from a potential vegan

    Apologies Mary, our replies crossed - no disrespect to your position intended.

Similar Threads

  1. Cafe One (Birmingham) closed :(
    By Herbsman in forum UK
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Apr 2nd, 2008, 11:07 AM
  2. McDonalds Closed!
    By cedarblue in forum Projects, companies & links
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: Nov 3rd, 2007, 08:49 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •