[Several multi-question threads, closed]

[Clueless Git]

Perhaps there are some places where humans shouldn't live.

This is a good point!

Possibly many humans live where humans shouldn't have to live because where they could live has long since been ringfenced off for the vast unnatural flocks and herds.

Something like 30% of all land space on the face of the planet is farmed (bearing in mind that a fair percentage is desert and mountains and stuff) and 70% of that 30% is used entirely for animal agriculture.

Get rid of the animal agriculture and you have an awfull lot of land to return to wildlife habitat and to move humans who live where humans shouldn't have to live about.

[Andy_T]

Would gathering some coins from benevolent passers-by and then hunting down a fish-and-chips merchant to secure some food also be considered?
Because I guess that is what a hunter-and-gatherer lifestyle in Britain might amount to nowadays.

Best regards,
Andy

[harpy]

Harpy have you gone insane after your scary experience the other day?

It's possible.

I expect you're Spartacus too, cw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFbCS4a14J4

[cobweb]

It's possible.

I expect you're Spartacus too, cw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFbCS4a14J4

Oh, I see, he-he

[sandra]

Thank you all for covering for me!

[Clueless Git]

Would gathering some coins from benevolent passers-by and then hunting down a fish-and-chips merchant to secure some food also be considered?
Because I guess that is what a hunter-and-gatherer lifestyle in Britain might amount to nowadays.

Best regards,
Andy

'Lo Andy,

It would be hunt down an Indian Restaurant owner in modern day Blighty matey.

Britains No.1 favourite take-away dish is no longer fish'n'chips but Chicken Tikka-Massalla.

Which minds me of the 'Spartacus' I met in my local Indian Restaurant; He had been talking about huntin'n'fishing when he realised there was a vegan (me!) present.

He quickly switched to the usual old "respect vegans/don't like factory farming/only eat stuff I have caught and killed myself" bollox.

Then one of the waiters turned up with his take-away which turned out to be none other than Britains new favourite dish, Chicken Tikka Massala ...

Couldn't help myself, just looked straight at his carry-out bag, then straight into his eyes, and said "hunted and killed that yourself then did you?"

Left me musing that one of the many aspects of the suffering that meat causes is that it makes basicaly very nice people, who really would like the world to be a better place, into pathetic lying wankers.

[leedsveg]

Left me musing that one of the many aspects of the suffering that meat causes is that it makes basicaly very nice people, who really would like the world to be a better place, into pathetic lying wankers.

"I expect omnis to be brainwashed slaves to the meat eating habit exactly the same as I was." Cupid Stunt 26 Jan 2011

Forgive me Cupid but your two statements seem a bit contradictory to me. How can people you call "brainwashed slaves", also be "pathetic lying wankers"?

leedsveg

[Clueless Git]

"I expect omnis to be brainwashed slaves to the meat eating habit exactly the same as I was." Cupid Stunt 26 Jan 2011

Forgive me Cupid but your two statements seem a bit contradictory to me. How can people you call "brainwashed slaves", also be "pathetic lying wankers"?

leedsveg

No contradiction there at all most honourable matey

Brainwashing (kinda by definition?) is a process by which people are blinded to all but the 'lie' that the brainwasher wishes to instill and propogate.

Anyone who has been succesfully brainwashed is thus going to be a propagator of the lies they have been brainwashed into believing and thus, by default, is going to be a liar.

[fiamma]

matey

Wow, Cupid - you sure do love making assumptions. For example, that everyone here is your "mate". Are they?

it makes basicaly very nice people, who really would like the world to be a better place, into pathetic lying wankers

That's a sweeping statement if there ever was one. I sincerely believe there are people (like I was) have never really made the connection between meat-eating and cruelty, but once they are, are willing to change. Then there are those unwilling (or unable) to give up meat for a variety of reasons, and those aware of the cruelty involved, but don't care.

But calling all meat eaters "pathetic lying wankers" is intolerant, disrespectful and plain untrue. I would ask you respectfully to tone down your language; we are not all your "mates" and this is not a bar where a bit of Dutch courage gives you the licence to say whatever you please.

[leedsveg]

No contradiction there at all most honourable matey

Brainwashing (kinda by definition?) is a process by which people are blinded to all but the 'lie' that the brainwasher wishes to instill and propogate.

Anyone who has been succesfully brainwashed is thus going to be a propagator of the lies they have been brainwashed into believing and thus, by default, is going to be a liar.

Sorry Cupid but with respect, your explanation elicited a few guffaws in the house of Leedsveg. MrsLeedsveg is an excellent creative writer but even she was amazed at what you can do with words! We're now awaiting with bated breath, your take (so far inexplicably missing) on the two other words from the phrase "pathetic lying wankers". (I have every confidence that you will prove to your own satisfaction that the two sentences of yours that I queried, are not contradictory.)

Good wishes as always Leedsveglol

[RubyDuby]

LV- How is this helping the cause as set forth by the founders of the vegan society, or whatever you said your sole purpose was here at the vegan forum now. I thought you had given up trouble making?

[Clueless Git]

Sorry Cupid but with respect ...

I don't think your being scrupulously honest there LV ...

[Clueless Git]

Wow, Cupid - you sure do love making assumptions. For example, that everyone here is your "mate". Are they?

I rather suspect that some are definitely not Fiamma, m'matey

That's a sweeping statement if there ever was one ..

No it wasn't.

The bloke I met did seem like a very nice bloke but he was a pathetic lying wanker as I relayed in the story that my observation related to, matey.

[harpy]

The whole point of brainwashing is that the victim ends up believing whatever it is they're brainwashed about. And if you say something you believe, you're not lying, even if the thing isn't true - you're uttering a false belief in good faith. "Lying" on the other hand normally means saying something false with intent to deceive.

[leedsveg]

LV- How is this helping the cause as set forth by the founders of the vegan society, or whatever you said your sole purpose was here at the vegan forum now. I thought you had given up trouble making?

Hi RubyDuby
I think if people make what I perceive are contradictory statements, then I can challenge them. And not only statements that are contradictory but couched in language that I, and I would hope others, find quite offensive. How can you ie any vegan have any hope of persuading omnis to take veganism seriously if you refer to them as "pathetic lying wankers" and "brainwashed slaves"? And refer to discussions with omnis as "kicking ass"? I had hoped that Cupid would tone down his postings, following on from his "vegetarians are worse than paedophiles" comment some months ago but apparently not. Is Cupid just a 'wind-up merchant'? Well I look at his "m'matey" response to fiamma and have to wonder.

As for your question "I thought you had given up trouble making?", I really don't think it's worthy of a reply.

Ian Davison (Leedsveg)

[harpy]

I don't think we vegans should fall out about this, otherwise we are just doing what trolls want (not sure if spartacus is a troll or a seeker after truth but either way...)

I know CS thinks a more confrontational approach works better in making people rethink their meat-eating but (even if it was my style) I would feel rather hypocritical calling people lying wankers and so on considering I ate meat for ages myself. I probably did believe some "lies" about humane meat production and so on before I looked into it in more detail. But that's different from lying.

[SlackAlice]

[QUOTE=fiamma;675063 I sincerely believe there are people (like I was) have never really made the connection between meat-eating and cruelty, but once they are, are willing to change. Then there are those unwilling (or unable) to give up meat for a variety of reasons, and those aware of the cruelty involved, but don't care.
[/QUOTE]

Then arent the ones who can make the connection liars? (Pathetic or otherwise)

They know the truth but chose to ignore it or bend it to suit their own pleasure and purpose.

If you are brainwashed into believing a truth only to have it exposed as a lie dont you become a liar yourself if you perpetuate it ?

Slack Alice

[Korn]

Hi. I have been away for a few days and some posts have been reported. Please avoid personal attacks, and this includes writings that only appear as personal attack/insults on others. It's fully possible to express one's feelings about meat eating and meat eaters without insulting them all.

After all, they represent ninentysomething % of all people in the Western world, and we can discuss what they do (in this case: eating meat) and still focus on viewpoints instead of personalities.

Re. Spartacus, the original poster in this thread; he has been on moderated posts and also have had some of his many posts removed due to many repetitions of the same few things he has brought up in various threads (veganism in cold climates etc). The removed posts *may* have included responses to questions from others, but with his cross-posting, the sometimes very long posts - and his high posting rate it's impossible to follow up his desires to have the many questions he raises discussed. He has, on several occasions, accused others for having stated things they haven't - and all of this, combined with the fact that this is mainly a forum for vegans means that the the vegan/non-vegan section should be considered more or less closed - expect for cases where there are no false accusations or a similarly hight rate of posting anti-vegan arguments across many messages/threads.


He has been more active than most of our active members, and I simply don't have capacity to focus on moderating all his posts. This, combined with him letting me know that he finds that most of what he has received here is "hostile prejudice, rudeness and heavy censorship" and that I'm "afraid" of his posts means that he doesn't even like the site, and this is a site for this who like it.

Next time a meat eater pops up in this section, please don't be rude, call them "pathetic lying wankers" or similar.

[fiamma]

Then arent the ones who can make the connection liars? (Pathetic or otherwise). They know the truth but chose to ignore it or bend it to suit their own pleasure and purpose.

You might want to look at the Forum guidelines:

Rule # 5) Consider VF a dinner party where vegans are invited to friendly communication.

It doesn't really matter what our own personal opinion of meat-eaters is, but what we write on an Internet forum is another matter.
Calling people "pathetic lying wankers" might be OK on other forums, but on VF we try to be a little more constructive.

If you are brainwashed into believing a truth only to have it exposed as a lie dont you become a liar yourself if you perpetuate it ?

Harpy put it very well in her post above #31:
The whole point of brainwashing is that the victim ends up believing whatever it is they're brainwashed about. And if you say something you believe, you're not lying, even if the thing isn't true - you're uttering a false belief in good faith. "Lying" on the other hand normally means saying something false with intent to deceive.

[Korn]

"Lier" = focusing on someones personalities - as opposed to what they do and their thoughts.
"Not telling the truth" = focus on the actual topic. Surely many meat eaters 'ignore it or bend it to suit their own pleasure and purpose", but this may be true for many vegans as well in several life situations - even if we avoid animal products.

[leedsveg]

I don't think your being scrupulously honest there LV ...

Cupid

I like to make people laugh but in the rib-tickling stakes, you are The Master. I was going to tell you that some people think my middle name is 'Honesty' but in actual fact it's Roger, so I won't.lol

Happy Valentines Day to you and Slack, by the way. I hope you're treating her to card, flowers, meal, the full monty.

Leedsveg

[leedsveg]

It struck me earlier that sometimes people can be brainwashed into telling 'the truth'. For instance, where people who have been brainwashed by cults to believe the most outlandish, idiotic nonsense ie lies, and the only perceived recourse has been to kidnap them and brainwash (reprogramme) them back, so that their 'critical faculties' kick in again.

Leedsveg

[Clueless Git]

Next time a meat eater pops up in this section, please don't be rude, call them "pathetic lying wankers" or similar.

Heavens to betsy!

I apologise for using the word 'wanker' but the bloke in the story that line was attached to was one and he was lying, patheticaly.

He knew full well that he hadn't caught the chicken in his chicken tikka-massala himself.

No mistake. He was lying and it was pathetic. That was all I wanted to say.

[Clueless Git]

The whole point of brainwashing is that the victim ends up believing whatever it is they're brainwashed about. And if you say something you believe, you're not lying, even if the thing isn't true - you're uttering a false belief in good faith. "Lying" on the other hand normally means saying something false with intent to deceive.

This is a very good point!

Much over the age of ten I have never met a meat eater who does not simply want that to be true which he/she knows full well not to be true though.

Basicaly that means that the lies they propogate all begin with them lying to themselves.

[cobweb]

Right speech
Right speech (samyag-vāc / sammā-vācā), deals with the way in which a Buddhist practitioner would best make use of their words. In the Pali Canon, it is explained thus:[30][31][32][33][34]
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, and from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

I thought you were a Buddhist, CS?................

[sandra]

This, combined with him letting me know that he finds that most of what he has received here is "hostile prejudice, rudeness and heavy censorship" and that I'm "afraid" of his posts means that he doesn't even like the site, and this is a site for this who like it.

Is Spartacus able to send pm's? If so I would be happy to receive a pm from him (as I'm sure others would) and would answer any questions he might have. I wouldn't be hostile or rude to him.............just honest.
There is no one on this forum who is 'afraid' of his posts.............why should we be? As for his remark that 'this is a site for those who like it'.........isn't that what most people do? Who wants to go on a site they don't like? Perhaps he made a Freudian slip there as in reality it's he who doesn't 'like the site'. I wonder why?

[Korn]

Well, somehow calling meat eaters pathetic liars/wankers in a section where meat eaters are allowed to post doesn't help, and there have been a couple of other not-so-nice comments as well. He doesn't like that he is on moderated posts, and calls it 'heavy censorship' - but a forum for vegan where meat eaters can post freely just wouldn't work. Most of the meat eaters who have posted here in the past have shown little respect for our board rules, and to some degree they've done what Spartacus did: brought up the same topic over and over again in many threads - including when they have been pointed to threads where these topics already have been discussed.


And no - meat eaters won't get PM access - and I'm not sorry about that. Most of them just don't get that the main focus of veganism is to respect other living beings right to a good life, and have asked many questions a la 'what's wrong with eating animals; after all - I'm killing them myself!" and so on... We I don't want our members to "risk" getting such questions from fellow forum members in PMs. Non-vegans will always be on moderated posts (or have no posting abilities at all), and I can't/won't moderate PMs. As some of you know, trolls and meat eaters are, in some cases, a lot more active than our regular members (until their accounts are disabled)

If I'd register at a vegan forum and receive private messages of the kind the stuff Spartacus have posted (posts which haven't been approved), I'd just leave the forum. It's a forum for vegans: all others are considered occasional visitors with limited to access - and only access to this area. If they would have free access to PMs. and be on moderated posts, they'd just start to actively post the same stuff in unmoderated PMs to vegan members.

Having said that, Spartacus have shown a higher degree of respect for some essential board rules than some members have. But - the sad fact that he doesn't respect animals (to the degree that he thinks it's OK to kill them) means that he already is outside the group of people this forum mainly is meant for. If I should move and moderate Spartacus many posts, keep explaining the board rules and respond to questions/comments to me personally (posted in public threads), I would have way to little time to do the admin/mod work I need to do for the vegan members of this forum (99.9%). I just have to focus on the main intension behind this site.

IF a meat eater would log in and post arguments or pseudo-arguments vegans wouldn't already have heard and responded to for many years, I'll definitely give them higher priority than members who ask all those questions we already have addressed. But Spartacus doesn't belong on that category, and it has been years since we had someone post any critical questions or counter-arguments that aren't already responded to in existing threads. Therefore, this section may - one day - be replaced with a link to some static (non-discussion) pages which address all these old and well know questions and comments we've heard so many times.

[harpy]

Much over the age of ten I have never met a meat eater who does not simply want that to be true which he/she knows full well not to be true though.

Basicaly that means that the lies they propogate all begin with them lying to themselves.

I'm not sure that 10 or 11 year old children do know the truth, though, given that the food industry ensures they are surrounded by pictures of contented animals in fields and none of factory farms or slaughterhouses?

In adults there is less excuse for not knowing the facts, but then most of us are guilty of closing our minds to stuff we don't want to think about, otherwise we would probably spend less time arguing on forums and more raising money for Oxfam :-/ So even though I feel veganism is much better than omnivorism, I don't think vegans are necessarily "better" than omnivores - perhaps in a sense we're luckier though.

[Clueless Git]

Right speech
Right speech (samyag-vāc / sammā-vācā), deals with the way in which a Buddhist practitioner would best make use of their words. In the Pali Canon, it is explained thus:[30][31][32][33][34]
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, and from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

I thought you were a Buddhist, CS?................

I think you will find, in line with the not lying bit, that it says Bad Buddhist in my title Sandra.

And now for some 'idle chatter' ..

One of the core 'ideas' in buddhism is that we should desire all sentient beings to be free from suffering and its causes. Another is that every buddhist should work, to the maximum extent of his/her skillfullness, to free them.

Yet another is that when gentle lessons fail we should not be afraid to use harsh lessons in our efforts to free them and when both gentle and harsh lessons fail we should not be afraid to walk away.

People here don't see my gentle side. It isn't necessary. We have gentleness here in great abundance and that is one of the nicest things about this forum.

What we also have here is frequent posts from people who have become 'stumped' as to what to say when gentle lessons have failed with people (freinds/parents/partners etc) whom they do not wish to, or cannot, walk away from.

Within the limits of my personal 'skills' is the ability to deliver very harsh lessons. It is not a common 'skill' so it is the one I spend most of my time on.

And finaly, as you seem to have developed an interest in buddhism ..

Read further. The buddha was not at all reluctant to deliver some pretty serious tongue lashings when occasion demanded it.

[Clueless Git]

I'm not sure that 10 or 11 year old children do know the truth, though, given that the food industry ensures they are surrounded by pictures of contented animals in fields and none of factory farms or slaughterhouses?

Unhappy experience leads me to believe otherwise Harpy ..

When my own kiddies (vegetarian from birth) were of that age many of their freinds expressed curiosity about our meat free household.

Usualy it only took a little of the old "well, you know where meat comes from?" leading up to "so we don't eat meat because we don't want any part in the killing of animals" and off they would go to tell their parents that they wanted no part in that either and wanted to be vegetarians.

I have no doubt that most of them knew the truth at that age. All they needed was an adult to confirm it for them.

In adults there is less excuse for not knowing the facts, but then most of us are guilty of closing our minds to stuff we don't want to think about, otherwise we would probably spend less time arguing on forums and more raising money for Oxfam :-/ So even though I feel veganism is much better than omnivorism, I don't think vegans are necessarily "better" than omnivores - perhaps in a sense we're luckier though.

Yes, I like the idea that we're luckier!

Unless anyone thinks that they are not a better them as a vegan than they were as a meat-eater I cannot see that there is any sense in arguing that vegans are not better than meat-eaters though.

[leedsveg]

In adults there is less excuse for not knowing the facts, but then most of us are guilty of closing our minds to stuff we don't want to think about, otherwise we would probably spend less time arguing on forums and more raising money for Oxfam :-/ So even though I feel veganism is much better than omnivorism, I don't think vegans are necessarily "better" than omnivores - perhaps in a sense we're luckier though.

Exactly how I feel, harpy. As vegans, our concern is often seen to be directed only towards animals. But such selective compassion would be exactly what we accuse omnis of. Donald Watson was a conscientious objector in WW2 because he (also) had compassion for human animals and didn't want to cause them harm. Such a stance would have been very unpopular with the general population at the time but no doubt DW just saw it as part of his veganism, that is, part of his moral consistency.

Lv

[Clueless Git]

Unhappy experience leads me to believe otherwise Harpy ...

Should have expanded on that ...

The 'unhappy' part was that whenever the kiddies returned and I asked "how is it going?" the answer was always the same; "I told my mum'n'dad that I want to be a vegetarian but they won't let me".

[harpy]

Unless anyone thinks that they are not a better them as a vegan than they were as a meat-eater I cannot see that there is any sense in arguing that vegans are not better than meat-eaters though.

Am I a "better me" than 17 years ago or whenever I became vegan? If forced to answer I would have to say I'm probably better in some respects and worse in others.

Personally I find judging and comparing people (including different states of oneself) a rather depressing and unproductive line of thought. I imagine it makes more sense in the context of a religion that involves undertaking a journey towards enlightenment or something like that, but personally I don't subscribe to that (or any other) religion.

[sandra]

And no - meat eaters won't get PM access - and I'm not sorry about that. Most of them just don't get that the main focus of veganism is to respect other living beings right to a good life, and have asked many questions a la 'what's wrong with eating animals; after all - I'm killing them myself!" and so on... We I don't want our members to "risk" getting such questions from fellow forum members in PMs. Non-vegans will always be on moderated posts (or have no posting abilities at all), and I can't/won't moderate PMs. As some of you know, trolls and meat eaters are, in some cases, a lot more active than our regular members (until their accounts are disabled)

I understand, I just assumed that everyone could send pm's...........but I agree it wouldn't be advisable to give meat eaters access to pm's for the reasons you gave.
It's just a pity that some meat eaters feel the need to behave like that...............personally, I think it shows they are not as happy with their 'meat eating' as they would have us believe and therefore they feel the need to pester vegans because of this.

[sandra]

I think you will find, in line with the not lying bit, that it says Bad Buddhist in my title Sandra.

Hi Cupid, it wasn't me who made the post you have quoted, it was Cobweb!

[cobweb]

I think you will find, in line with the not lying bit, that it says Bad Buddhist in my title Sandra.

And now for some 'idle chatter' ..

One of the core 'ideas' in buddhism is that we should desire all sentient beings to be free from suffering and its causes. Another is that every buddhist should work, to the maximum extent of his/her skillfullness, to free them.

Yet another is that when gentle lessons fail we should not be afraid to use harsh lessons in our efforts to free them and when both gentle and harsh lessons fail we should not be afraid to walk away.

People here don't see my gentle side. It isn't necessary. We have gentleness here in great abundance and that is one of the nicest things about this forum.

What we also have here is frequent posts from people who have become 'stumped' as to what to say when gentle lessons have failed with people (freinds/parents/partners etc) whom they do not wish to, or cannot, walk away from.

Within the limits of my personal 'skills' is the ability to deliver very harsh lessons. It is not a common 'skill' so it is the one I spend most of my time on.

And finaly, as you seem to have developed an interest in buddhism ..

Read further. The buddha was not at all reluctant to deliver some pretty serious tongue lashings when occasion demanded it.

Hi, Cobweb here, not Sandra

I do have much more than a passing interest in Buddhism as it happens, and have done a fair bit of reading and studying over the years. The only reason I wouldn't call myself a Buddhist is because I don't feel happy about placing myself inside any particular 'box', and prefer to be a free-thinker. Certainly I have found many Buddhist concepts very easy to identify with, and the readings and studyings that I have done, and still do, are a source of comfort and wisdom .

Sometimes the way you speak can come across as though *we* (the rest of us) need you to speak for us, but I feel that we actually don't need that kind of 'frontman', most of us have become very adept at fending off 'arguments' against veganism.

Also, I agree with others who disliked your choice of words (you know which ones!) - and c'mon, you weren't simply referring to one individual, you used the plural term. Like most other people here, I suspect, I'm not easily offended, and certainly I do swear myself, but I was a bit taken aback at that particular posting of yours (re meat eaters). Didn't seem very 'mindful' to me .

You talk of harsh lessons, but I think that the Buddha would choose gentleness and compassion first. Sometimes it's not our job to be the teacher of harsh lessons. Maybe you would gain more respect by treading lightly and making your compassionate side shine through more humbly?.

I hope that this doesn't sound in any way like a 'personal attack' because it certainly is not one. Just my thoughts. I do feel strongly that we should ALL be very mindful of what we say, particularly in this section for 'non-vegans', otherwise we make ourselves look like 'brainwashed pathetic *******' if we're not careful, and give non-vegans just another reason to walk away from the concept of veganism, shaking their heads in pity at those of us who seem to think ourselves 'above' them.

[Clueless Git]

Hi, Cobweb here, not Sandra
I hope that this doesn't sound in any way like a 'personal attack' because it certainly is not one ..

Not at all Cobbers and apologies to you and Sandra for getting your posts mixed up.

[cobweb]

s'ok!

[sandra]

Not at all Cobbers and apologies to you and Sandra for getting your posts mixed up.

No worries CS!

[SlackAlice]

"Lier" = focusing on someones personalities - as opposed to what they do and their thoughts.
"Not telling the truth" = focus on the actual topic. Surely many meat eaters 'ignore it or bend it to suit their own pleasure and purpose", but this may be true for many vegans as well in several life situations - even if we avoid animal products.

Guilty as charged Korn ..but working on it!

I think the problem arises when you begin 'not telling the truth' in any life situation. If you start with a false premise you cannot avoid becoming a liar because everything you say or do following on from that is based on a lie.

The Buddhist concept of right thought , right speech and right action illustrates this perfectly : If I ignore or bend a truth I am not starting with right thought. If I am not starting with right thought then how can I go on to use right speech or right action. Everything I do, say and am is built on the shaky bedrock of that first basic lie.

[leedsveg]

Guilty as charged Korn ..but working on it!

I think the problem arises when you begin 'not telling the truth' in any life situation. If you start with a false premise you cannot avoid becoming a liar because everything you say or do following on from that is based on a lie.

The Buddhist concept of right thought , right speech and right action illustrates this perfectly : If I ignore or bend a truth I am not starting with right thought. If I am not starting with right thought then how can I go on to use right speech or right action. Everything I do, say and am is built on the shaky bedrock of that first basic lie.

Hi Slack

There's a long Wiki article on Buddhists who are not vegetarian. How can these Buddhists be engaging in 'right thought'? I'm sure if I asked them, they'd say that they were. Not knocking Buddhism at all because there's a lot I find appealing, especially the idea of non-attachment. But there's a lot I find confusing as well. What's your take on this?

leedsveg

[Clueless Git]

Hi Slack

There's a long Wiki article on Buddhists who are not vegetarian. How can these Buddhists be engaging in 'right thought'? I'm sure if I asked them, they'd say that they were.

If you are genuinely interested you would have look up 'Foodof Bodhisattvas' by Shabkar, LV.

It is the single most authorative work on all 'scriptual' references and argument for and against buddhists eating meat.

There is a simple test you can do at home tho' ..

Ask a meat eating buddhist any logical (no knowledge of buddism required at all) question about the cause and effect links twix him/her buying/eating meat and the suffering of the animals involved and guage from his/her answers if you are listening to someone who's thought processes, on that particular matter, are more likely wrong or right.

[Clueless Git]

The Buddhist concept of right thought , right speech and right action illustrates this perfectly : If I ignore or bend a truth I am not starting with right thought. If I am not starting with right thought then how can I go on to use right speech or right action. Everything I do, say and am is built on the shaky bedrock of that first basic lie.

This ^ is quite concise.

The opening lines of the Dhammapadha ..

Mind precedes all knowables,
mind's their chief, mind-made are they.
If with a corrupted mind
one should either speak or act
dukkha (suffering) follows caused by that,
as does the wheel the ox's hoof.

Basicaly right and wrong thinking can be known by the 'fruits' that result from the words and actions that emanate from them.

If the 'fruit' of an action is dukkha (suffering) then the action is wrong and thus the thoughts, and the words spawned from the thoughts to support the action, must be wrong also.

The 'fruit' of the action of meat eating is suffering thus the word that support meat eating, and the thoughts that the word emanate from, are wrong also.

A meat eater will see the fruits of veg*anism as being suffering in exactly the same way that a fat kiddie sees suffering being the fruits of owt he/she hears that even remotely resembles "no more sweets!".

[Lars]

I was interested in the initial topic of this thread but now it's just spamming my email inbox. How come I got a sternly told by an admin when i went slightly off topic in a thread, when this one is way more off topic than mine! argh

[harpy]

Still off topic, you don't need to get any spam (or any e-mails at all if you don't want) from this forum, Lars - maybe you need to unsubscribe from the thread or something?

[Lars]

yeah i thought i did but i cant seem to make i stop, i'll give it another try

[Korn]

I was interested in the initial topic of this thread but now it's just spamming my email inbox. How come I got a sternly told by an admin when i went slightly off topic in a thread, when this one is way more off topic than mine! argh

Hi Lars, I can't remember having mentioned any offtopic-ness to you - but it's good to keep threads on topic most of the time. However, it's impossible for mods/admins on any large forum to always monitor all active threads.

Plus - this thread started off with six questions. In order to discuss anything, one often have to bring in related topics, so it's always a question of trying to keep the focus than to ban all off topic comments.

yeah i thought i did but i cant seem to make i stop, i'll give it another try

Let me know if it doesn't work. There have been some bugs in the subscription code.

[leedsveg]

I was interested in the initial topic of this thread but now it's just spamming my email inbox. How come I got a sternly told by an admin when i went slightly off topic in a thread, when this one is way more off topic than mine! argh

Hi Lars
I'm often guilty of going off-topic, it's sometimes a bit like a steam of consciousness process. Sorry! I'll try to do better and I can fully understand your frustration at being 'told off'. Perhaps, and I'm only guessing, moderators jump in sooner if they see that a topic is not just veering off but also getting a bit 'heavy'/intense? Not that I'm saying that you personally are guilty of anything! Please don't be put off from posting because you make some very good points.

Leedsveg

[SlackAlice]

Hi Slack

There's a long Wiki article on Buddhists who are not vegetarian. How can these Buddhists be engaging in 'right thought'? I'm sure if I asked them, they'd say that they were. Not knocking Buddhism at all because there's a lot I find appealing, especially the idea of non-attachment. But there's a lot I find confusing as well. What's your take on this?

leedsveg

My post was dealing with right thought 'in any life situation' not specifically meat/non-meat eating leeds

But... like you , I found it confusing, ( not to mention disappointing ), to discover that there are Buddhists who are not Vegetarian. The first assumption people make when you announce you are a ' trainee ' Buddhist is that you are Vegetarian and indeed it was mine until I learnt otherwise.

Cupid and I were members of a Buddhist forum where this bone of contention regularly got dug up!

My personal understanding is that in Buddhism ( as in most religions ) an ability to weave in and out of scripture mis-quoting and mis-interpreting is invaluable if your personal pleasure or comfort are in dispute.

Personally speaking .. I believe being a Vegetarian is a pre-requisite for being a Buddhist. No teachings I have read , or arguments I have heard have convinced me otherwise.

[leedsveg]

Thanks for your interesting posts on Buddhism, Slack and Cupid. Sorry I wasn't able to acknowledge them sooner.

leedsveg