Being a vegan in the U.S.A.?

[Korn]

The way I see it, we can't set up a universal scale for "vegan-ness" - in grams, milligrams or micrograms. The degree of tiny amounts of animal products that vegans may consume (because other solutions would not fall within the "avoid animal products as much as practical and possible") has to be set by each person. Otherwise, some vegan would start to take this seriously and claim that eg. a few milligrams are allowed, but grams aren't allowed.

One thing is that "allowed" shouldn't be in there at all. We are allowed to do what we want, but we don't want to use animal products.

Some people choose a gradual transition to becoming vegans, and some vegans may, in the middle of their "vegan-ness" slip, and take an hour without being vegan, and then go back to be vegans again. The bottom line is that it's all about whether we want to fool ourselves or not: if that's what we want, we'll manage to fool ourselves anyway.

If a vegan says that he ate a hot dog that day because everything else wasn't practical or possible, I'd say that there's great likelihood that he's fooling himself. Vegans don't eat hot dogs, and if he is going to an area where only hot dogs are available, he could have brought some fruit or something else. But since being vegan is based on actually not wanting to eat hot dogs, we don't need to police each other and accuse him for not being vegan. If he doesn't want to bring his own food or find something else, he'll probably eat more hot dogs anyway, and accusing him for not being a perfect vegan probably won't help. Motivation helps.

We can't be "perfect vegans" in a non-vegan society, but it's more "perfect" to remain a vegan throughout life than to be so hard on yourself that you give up after a few months of years - and again, since "as much as practical and possible" is baked into the very definition of vegan, someone who avoids animal products as much as practical and possible already fits perfectly in with that definition anyway.

[sparklingsights]

We can't be "perfect vegans" in a non-vegan society, but it's more "perfect" to remain a vegan throughout life than to be so hard on yourself that you give up after a few months of years

Beautifully said! Thank you for this.

[Mahk]

But since being vegan is based on actually not wanting to eat hot dogs

*ahem* Maybe you speak for some but you certainly don't speak for me. My veganity comes exclusively from not wanting to harm animals. End of story. Is it good for my heath and the environment too? Arguably so, but those are simply convenient coincidences and I would still live vegan if it slightly harmed me or the environment. The animals are all that matters to me.

There's absolutely nothing wrong or immoral about eating hot dogs if no animal death or exploitation is involved. No sentient creature has been harmed. Me and several others in this thread periodically eat "hot dogs", "ice cream", and "meat" that grows on trees (soybean burgers, Tofurkey slices, and Tofu Pops "hot dogs") for example. They taste good to me, similar to meat IIRC, and I want to eat them. Also, when they successfully start to sell laboratory grown real meat, although I'm not very tempted to try it personally, as long as no animal harm comes from its production, I won't criticize a vegan who chooses to do so. They are still 100% vegan in my book. There's no law that a vegan must despise the taste/smell of animal products and not want to eat them.

The way I see it, we can't set up a universal scale for "vegan-ness" - in grams, milligrams or micrograms.

Which is why for me personally the level of concern is "any", which is similar to my stance on murdering humans. I won't buy food that the vendor has specifically chosen to purposfully add an animal product to it. By buying it I would be funding animal death/exploitation. Note, I don't personally worry about molecular cross contamination from a common production line in their kitchen [for example, "Made in a facility that also uses eggs"] because that doesn't fund or contribute to further animal death/exploitation, not even by one molecule or atom.

If I were to buy 3 micrograms of vitamin D3 [or murdered human], or eat a food like Kellogg's corn flakes which contains it, I am directly funding the harming of animals, so I won't do that. The quantity in mass is completely immaterial from my perspective. I won't fund animal death knowingly.

If a new vegan doesn't know what cholecalciferol, cochineal, whey, or propolis is then they need to learn, a far as I'm concerned, carry a printed vegan food safety list (some can be carried in an ipod or cellphone), or access any of the dozens if not hundreds of free web based lists to check to see if it is vegan or not. Yes, mistakes may be made along the way and are a part of becoming a vegan, but knowingly refusing to learn what is or isn't vegan because it is "too difficult" or "they only harmed a very small amount of animals since the use is measured in micrograms" I find surprising.

How anyone could suggest they shouldn't feel the need to because they deem it "not practical", or easy, baffles me.

[missbettie]

being practical varies from person to person, thats where the problem arises. its an abstract concept.

[Mahk]

I see your point but if "vegan" has a different definition per person that means if I go to a "vegan" restaurant they may serve me cholecalciferol (vitamin D3, new peeps) or honey in my wheat bread because they are the kind of vegans who don't care about "micrograms" or "bees" because it is "too difficult/ not practical" and they couldn't be bothered. Not cool.

[missbettie]

i agree. but i mean the bases of being a vegan is we don't eat meat, dairy, honey or eggs. so with that being the bases then you go from there i suppose.

so mahk if you rescued a hen would you eat its eggs? since no harm is coming to the animal?...though i think i remember you not believing in keeping pets right? (Besides the fact that obviously eating the eggs isn't vegan, but doesn't this kind of go with what you were saying? With the whole idea of the animals not coming to harm?....I'm pretty sure you wouldn't eat them but i would just like some more of your insite.)

I don't know...this is kind of a weird topic...going into the depths of the definition...is there really a clear definition of veganism? especially considering the as practical as possible...

I pretty much follow the same idea as you Mahk. I won't straight out eat something that I know is definately not vegan. but i'm not going to worry about cross molecular contamination

[Mahk]

so mahk if you rescued a hen would you eat its eggs? since no harm is coming to the animal?

Excellent and fair question. I'm not an expert on birds and don't know how they feel about eggs being taken away from them but I would assume some if not most birds would go postal ( or ballistic ) and attack a predator that was messing with her "babies". [What do they do if the egg isn't fertile, I wonder? Do they keep sitting on it even when it starts to rot? ]

A better question might be would I use my rescued hen's molted feathers to stuff a pillow, or say my hypothetical dog's shed fur. The answer (for me personally) is "yes". I'm 100% confident they wouldn't care (or even be aware of what I was doing)... "Say Mahk, wasn't that once part of my plumage/coat?" DOH!

though i think i remember you not believing in keeping pets right?

Right. It was wrong for humans to every have "domesticated" any animals, at all, for any reason. We don't own them and they have the right to evolve on their own without our speciest desires to shape them through "breeding" (which is a euphemism for culling the offspring we don't like). We do have an obligation to care for the existing ones which need homes though, so rescuing ones from shelters, and such, is a noble/good thing to do.

ETA: I don't make pillows, mind you, and there is a certain aspect of "ick, gross" to what I mentioned. I think I more accurately should have said I wouldn't look down on a fellow vegan if they
constructively thought of a use for their pet snake's molted skin, their dog's/cats' shed fur, or rescued bird's molted feathers. No harm came to any sentient being.

[janette]

I live in Texas..BBQ & beef capitol of the USA. It can be hard at times, but 90% of my food I make myself, I research and I read, read, read labels. We have a tiny little health food shop in my town where I can get a few things. The grocery stores have basic things like soy milk and tofu and a few "quickie" things like Boca burgers. About an hour away in some bigger cities there are some Whole Foods type stores that I try to go to every few months when I can afford it.
Being vegan pretty much anywhere in the world takes work and vigilance. You do the best you can with what you have. Am I 100% vegan all the time? Maybe not, but I try.

[wendy]

It is absolutely wrong to keep pets. But the ones who are already here, need a GOOD home. I rescued some abandoned chickens and one rooster. Of course they are not allowed to breed. But even outside the breeding period, they lay very many eggs. This is not normal, we have created them like this (no, I am not only talking about laying hens. All domesticated chickens are created to lay eggs for us. Wild birds only lay eggs for breeding purposes. Once or twice a year)
So, then the question is what does a vegan do with these eggs? And my answer is simple. We cook them and feed them to the chickens. A vet who specialises in birds said this is extremely healthy for them.
And yes, Makh, a chicken will nest over unfertelised eggs as if they were fertelised. That doesn't seem to make any difference.

[Zero]

Chickens have been bred specifically to lay more eggs than they would if they had been left naturally, this causes their bodies to lose more nutrients than they should so yes I have also heard that it is best to feed the eggs back to them to recoup the loss, some have been known to actually break unfertilised eggs and eat them (a friend of mine's aunt takes in rescued chickens).

[missbettie]

very interesting! I had no idea that they could eat their own eggs, but you have to cook them first? Good to know if i ever run into a chicken that needs my help!

[veganwitch]

When I visited Farm Sanctuary a few years ago I learned about the egg feeding thing. That is what they do w/ the hens they rescue.

While there are vegans who think it is wrong to keep pets, there are also vegans who do keep pets, who love them, and who consider them members of their family, not just pets. So making blanket statements about it being wrong to keep pets can be offensive.

[wendy]

How do you see the keeping of chickens as pets? For every chicken that is born , there is a rooster born. A lot of people want chickens, but who wants an equal amount of roosters?
Keeping pets is as wrong as eating meat. We decide everything for them and they have no voice or choice. Even children have the option to speak their sorrow and at least they grow up and have choices. So if you ate meat you would probably find it offensive if I told you that was wrong... That doesn't mean I cannot say what I think, just as you just stated you don't find it wrong. I find that offensive, but hey I'll live with that

[wendy]

Oh, and I don't know if it is necessary to cook the eggs before you feed them to chickens. I sometimes give them raw and they love that too

[veganwitch]

If the chickens are being kept by vegans as animal friends and not food suppliers, then I see nothing wrong w/ it. I also don't think vegans would discriminate b/w hens and roosters since vegans are not in it for the eggs.

I'm not trying to get into a big thing here but again, comparing keeping pets to eating meat is your opinion. Wrong in your eyes, but not in the eyes of many others. Of course you can say whatever you want, I never said you couldn't.

[Zero]

Wendy, keeping pets isn't how I look at it when considering taking in rescued animals, its about co existing with them and perhaps being their caretakers or guardians.

As much as I love domesticated animals, I do feel it would be better if they didn't exist because they are so dependent upon us. As long as this continues there will be those who will exploit them for money.

Looking after neglected animals is like treating the symptom and not the cause, but (for example) if I found an injured or sick stay cat in the road that I could help back to recovery and give a new home to I would do it because the alternative euthanasia and I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I took that route.

Shall we get back on topic perhaps?

[wendy]

Me too! I have 11 ex-feral cats, 6 chickens and a rooster.
Even most vegan don't want roosters, Veganwitch. They make a lot of noise. How do you say the word in English for the noise they make?
And you are right, there is a angry moderator there somewhere. I'll shut up now

[Zero]

Even most vegan don't want roosters, Veganwitch. They make a lot of noise. How do you say the word in English for the noise they make?

I believe it is cock-a-doodle-doo

[baby_vicuña]

^ and they don't just cock-a-doodle-doo at sunrise. Oh god no. They cock-a-doodle-doo all. day. long. UGH. (rant over, sorry . I went to TJ, Mexico a few years ago to help build a house and there were chickens and a rooster on the site. We all thought it was so cool at first until the rooster wouldn't shut up! )

Any hoo, back on topic. Being vegan in the USA. Is that more difficult than in other countries or something?

[Zero]

Any hoo, back on topic. Being vegan in the USA. Is that more difficult than in other countries or something?

No, not in my experience.

It's myopic to say that it is more difficult in a whole country, since countries are generally quite big. Living in certain places within a country is going to be easier than others too. When I lived in the US there were a good deal more vegan products around Denver compared to when I lived out on the Peninsula of Washington State in Port Angeles.

In the UK I could argue that it's so much easier to be vegan in say London or Brighton than it is here in Birmingham or some remote part of the countryside because of the stock the stores carry and the number of vegan friendly restaurants.

When I was in Slovakia earlier this year I kept finding vegan hotdogs, tofu and other products in supermarkets far outside Bratislava.

So really it's just about figuring out what is available in your local area, what the potential issues could be with any ingredients or processes in your country (which you likely learned already).

IMO being vegan isn't hard anywhere (with the exception perhaps of trying to live on frozen wastelands or somewhere else barely inhabitable), everywhere has vegetables, fruit, beans, nuts, pulses and grains.

[baby_vicuña]

^ Yeah I don't think it's that hard to be vegan. Maybe at first but not once you get to know your local health food stores. But I've never lived anywhere else but this town in California so I thought I might ask. Thanks.

[timberly]

It seems like there are alot of food products here that people can't get other places. Mostly junk food like newman o's, tings, peanut chews and other stuff like vital wheat gluten, puffins, liquid smoke...

I don't think it's difficult at all to eat vegan here. Mostly it's just dealing with idoits waving hunks of flesh in your face- but I suspect this happens everywhere

[baby_vicuña]

^ or nutritionists that tell you you need more protein as well as a B12 and calcium supplement

[BJJNick]

^ or nutritionists that tell you you need more protein as well as a B12 and calcium supplement

That makes veganism almost unbearable!

[baby_vicuña]

^ Until you're so used to hearing it that it just goes in one ear and out the other.