Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 71

Thread: About eating animals because they are not as 'important' as humans

  1. #1
    undercoverbrother
    Guest

    Default About eating animals because they are not as 'important' as humans

    If the killing of animals was done in a way that an animal didn't feel pain, would that eliminate the objections to the consumtion of animals? And if "pain" is the issue, then what is the objection to using the products of animals, such as eggs,fur, and milk?




    I understand that this is a vegan forum, but I would hope that the members of this forum would be accepting of questions regarding their views. I am not trying to be disrespectful, I am merely trying to gain some insight.
    Last edited by Korn; Jan 10th, 2005 at 11:00 AM. Reason: This thread was made out of posts from another one, and a new title was added when I split the previous thread

  2. #2
    John's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    NJ USA
    Posts
    714

    Default

    Vegans do not believe that animals are ours to exploit. An animal's body belongs to him or herself.

    Also, I urge you to research how animals raised for milk, meat, eggs, fur,
    et cetera, live. They are subjected to torture throughout their lives. Often, death is a relief from that torture.

  3. #3
    PinkFluffyCloud
    Guest

    Default

    How is it possible to kill anyone 'humanely' for NO reason - that is always Murder.
    To 'kill an animal humanely' = a contradiction in terms, it is ending a life for another's selfish greed and blood lust. What possible gain would come of it?

  4. #4
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,830

    Default

    Hi Undercoverbrother - out of curiosity.... if you would be working as a lawyer in a court and a murderer told you that he didn't think it was wrong to kill people, because after all 'we're all killing plants', and you would defend the family of the person that was killed - what would you think/say to the murderer then?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  5. #5
    feline01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    ?
    Posts
    874

    Default

    As John said, undercoverbrother, this is a forum for vegans or for people who want to become vegan. You agreed to that when you joined. If you have no interest, why are you bothering to debate?

    There are loads of informative websites out there like www.farmsanctuary.org, www.peta.org, www.petatv.com etc. You can do the research yourself if you're interested on why is is wrong to eat/use/exploit other animal species.

  6. #6
    undercoverbrother
    Guest

    Default

    I never said the killing of animals was humane. Cause you are right, killing for whatever purpose it might server will always be violent. This is the nature of taking a life.

    As to the lawyer scenario. I don't equate the value of an animal to the value of another human life. Just as the choice of the vegan life doesn't equate the value of a plant's life to an animal's life. So someone who murders another person, is not the same scenario of someone killing an animal for food. I would be angry and outraged with the murderer, and want him to be imprisoned for the rest of his life.

    Feline01, I don't understand why you object to discussing your views. I am not coming on your site and being rude, or arguing for the sake of arguing. I find it important to understand different beliefs,and cultures in order to be able to get along. If I were convinced that something was wrong with using animals for food, or other products, I would change my ways. As of now I don't see the wrong in eating animals. Thank you.

  7. #7
    PinkFluffyCloud
    Guest

    Default

    You said that "if we could find a way to kill animals humanely"..............
    I am pointing out that that is a contradiction in terms, Undercoverbrother.

  8. #8
    PinkFluffyCloud
    Guest

    Default

    How is it different, btw, to kill an animal, from the murder of a person??????
    Please explain, I am all ears!

  9. #9
    PinkFluffyCloud
    Guest

    Default

    ............Furthermore, if you really don't see the problem in killing animals, please see the 'Peta' video clips.
    If you really still don't have an inkling as to the ethical problem with murdering sentient (or even non-sentient) creatures, then you have come to the wrong place!!

  10. #10
    undercoverbrother
    Guest

    Default

    Please read what I wrote, I never said "if we could find a way to kill animals humanely. " So if you're going to quote, make sure you are truly quoting. That is not even an accurate paraphrase of what I said.

    To me, killing an animal for food is not immoral. Just as it is not immoral when a lion kills another animal for food.

    Also I originally stated
    "I appreciate the outrage against the manner in which animals are killed, and I would support any effort to do this in a more humane fashion,whenever possible." I am not arguing that the way in which animals are slaughtered is perfectly ok. There is obvious room for improvement in the respect.

  11. #11
    PinkFluffyCloud
    Guest

    Default

    No room for improvement - no slaughter is the only good slaughter.
    Are you a Lion?
    I don't think you are, cos you are typing on a computer - see the difference??

  12. #12
    PinkFluffyCloud
    Guest

    Default

    If you would like me to quote you exactly, you said "if the killing of animals was done in a way that an animal didn't feel pain"............which is pretty much the same as 'humane killing', isn't it??
    And my reply would still be this - we have no right to choose how these animals live or die, we have no right to live off their flesh, and absolutely no sound argument for doing so.
    If you have already made up your mind on this, why are you here?
    Did you watch the 'Peta' clips?..................

  13. #13
    undercoverbrother
    Guest

    Default

    No I am not a lion. My point was eating another animal for food is not wrong. Whether it is a lion eating an antelope, a bird eat a fish, or human eating a chicken.

    I was not stating that an animal can be killed humanly. With that argument then wouldn't your treatment of plants be inhumane. The same right you feel you have over plants(since you are choosing how they live and die), is the same right I feel I have over animals.

    And quote exactly? Isn't a quote supposed to be exact, that's why you say quote, to indicate you are using their words. And my question regarding elimination pain still would not achieve humanity, but would make the process closer to humanity.

  14. #14
    PinkFluffyCloud
    Guest

    Default

    Right, this is my last effort - if you think it is fine to eat animals, why would you care how they are killed? Mr. Lion doesn't think like that, see, he's just hungry and following his baser instincts.
    I was hoping that you might REALLY be open to change, but I see that you are not.
    We are all commited Vegans here, you won't change a single one of us.
    I hope you sleep soundly in your bed at night.

  15. #15
    undercoverbrother
    Guest

    Default

    Humans have the ability to feel compassion. We have a spirit, and a conscience, but at the same time, we are animals, and have animal instincts.

    I am open to change. I haven't seen a response to what gives you the right to take the life of plants, and why do you exercise that right, if you don't feel it's your place to make decisions for another beings life. You are discounting the value of a plants life in order to fill your tummy, thus making a conscience decision to terminate another life for your benefit.

  16. #16
    feline01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    ?
    Posts
    874

    Default

    Quote undercoverbrother
    Humans have the ability to feel compassion. We have a spirit, and a conscience, but at the same time, we are animals, and have animal instincts.

    I am open to change. I haven't seen a response to what gives you the right to take the life of plants, and why do you exercise that right, if you don't feel it's your place to make decisions for another beings life. You are discounting the value of a plants life in order to fill your tummy, thus making a conscience decision to terminate another life for your benefit.

    Read this thread.

  17. #17
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,830

    Default

    Quote undercoverbrother
    I haven't seen a response to what gives you the right to take the life of plants, and why do you exercise that right, if you don't feel it's your place to make decisions for another beings life.
    If you don't think you have the right to kill a plant, then don't do it. If you don't see anything wrong with eating - which means killing - animals, you have come to the wrong place. If it feels right for you to kill another living being: an animal, with heart, feelings, eyes, maybe parents or children, that doesn't want to be eaten - when you don't even need the nutrients from than animal at all to live a healthy life, I don't think anyone can convince you. Plants doesn't try to run away. By not eating plants, you kill yourself. So in order not to kill a human (yourself), you need to eat plants.

    Instead of trying to convince us to convince to feel and think something you don't, please rather try to let us know why humans should eat meat - if you think we should. I you don't humans should eat meat, we agree.

    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  18. #18
    undercoverbrother
    Guest

    Smile

    I definitely didn't come in here with any intent to change someone's mind. If I had made the decision to become a vegan, I'm sure the views I expressed in the discussion would not have swayed my mind. I am sure you hear it all the time.

    I only wanted to try to understand your views. However, I don't feel I really gained any further insight. I think it was only confirmed that vegans, just as non-vegans; have found a way to justify ending a life in order to survive in a way that their conscience can be comfortable with.


    Thank You

  19. #19
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,830

    Default

    .....or maybe some non-vegans are justifying ending the life of animals by equalling animals and plants, in order to feel less bad about killing animals for food when they don't need to.

    Frankly, if someone don't feel that there's anything 'wrong' with killing an animal for food, I don't think you'll gain other insights than possibly by reading about all the negative health effects of eating animals.

    If the people who feel that it's OK to kill animals for food would need to kill these animals themselves, or were forced to eat animals they personally knew, like pets, they would probably have felt different about the situation.

    If one observes humans, animals and plants, I think at least 95 out of 100 people would agree that humans and animals have a lot more in common than humans and plants. Meat eaters have also created laws protected animals from being abused, tortured or killed under certain circumstances. No meat eaters have ever constituted a law against killing plants. The only time I've seen this 'argument' come up, is when someone wants to look at the vegan/non-vegan issue from a very theoretical point of view.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  20. #20
    PinkFluffyCloud
    Guest

    Default

    Yes, Korn, that's the crux of the matter - if someone is happy to eat a Lamb, a Pig, a Cow, are they happy to eat their own Cat, Dog, Rabbit, etc, if not, why not?
    I have had beautiful friendships with Cows, Sheep, Goats, Turkeys, Hens and Pigs.

  21. #21
    Geoff
    Guest

    Default

    Quote PinkFluffyCloud
    I have had beautiful friendships with Cows, Sheep, Goats, Turkeys, Hens and Pigs.
    You can get arrested for that here except, I think, in Tasmania.

  22. #22
    PinkFluffyCloud
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Geoff
    You can get arrested for that here except, I think, in Tasmania.
    Oh, have you experience of that particular law, then, Geoffrey??

  23. #23
    John's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    NJ USA
    Posts
    714

    Default

    If you haven't read read it yet, I highly suggest that you all read Living with Meat Eaters. In the book the author explains why it is futile to debate with meat eaters. You will never convince an omni through debate. They often start debates with the sole intent of reinforcing their beliefs. They will not concede any points to you and you will only succeed in making that person a more adamant meat eater. It might make you feel better to win an argument with an omni, but in reality nothing positive will be achieved.

    One thing you can do is give the person third party information like pamphlets or website addresses.

  24. #24
    feline01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    ?
    Posts
    874

    Default

    John,

    I know you don't like to digress from a topic but I love your new avatar. I was just talking about that movie with my husband, we wished we had a copy to watch. The absolute best Christmas movie ever.

  25. #25
    John's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    NJ USA
    Posts
    714

    Default

    I haven't seen the film since I was a child but I still remember when he says the big one, "fudge" and other funny scenes like the "frageeele" lamp and the the decoder ring.

    However, right now my state of mind might be closer to Jimmy Stewart's in It's a Wonderful Life. Too bad I don't watch TV, I'm sure that those flix are playing somewhere. And who says I don't like to digress?

  26. #26
    feline01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    ?
    Posts
    874

    Default

    Quote John
    I haven't seen the film since I was a child but I still remember when he says the big one, "fudge" and other funny scenes like the "frageeele" lamp and the the decoder ring.

    However, right now my state of mind might be closer to Jimmy Stewart's in It's a Wonderful Life. Too bad I don't watch TV, I'm sure that those flix are playing somewhere.
    I love the next door neighbors dogs, the Bupkis' or something like that. And the sadistic Santa display. Yeah, sometimes it would be nice to have tv to channel surf but then I remember why I gave it up and enjoy my peace and quiet (except for the sound of a giggling 8-month old )

    Quote John
    And who says I don't like to digress?
    Just something I thought I had picked up on a thread awhile back. My mistake .

  27. #27
    Geoff
    Guest

    Default

    Quote undercoverbrother
    I don't think it's fair to compare the eating of animals, with eating a pet. A pet is an animal you have formed an emotional bond with. There are many things you wouldn't say or do to a person you care about vs. a complete stranger. The emotional connection changes your actions. Some people form an emotional bond with a household plant, and would never imagine cutting it up, and throwing it in a bowl for food.
    Just when you thought it couldn't get any sillier...

  28. #28
    julieruble
    Guest

    Default

    I don't think it's fair to compare the eating of animals, with eating a pet. A pet is an animal you have formed an emotional bond with. There are many things you wouldn't say or do to a person you care about vs. a complete stranger. The emotional connection changes your actions. Some people form an emotional bond with a household plant, and would never imagine cutting it up, and throwing it in a bowl for food.
    Sigh.

    You form an emotional bond with your mother (or your dog, or a piece of lettuce if you're odd) and so you won't kill her. Just because that explains why it might be easier to kill a stranger than to kill your mother, does that mean it's all right to kill a stranger, to whom you have no emotional bond?

    Your emotions don't determine what's moral, thankfully, or even what's reasonable.

  29. #29
    julieruble
    Guest

    Default

    By the way, the "life" of plants is not a sentient life. They have no self-awareness and no nervous system, as was already mentioned. Vegans are interested in non-exploitation and non-interference with the lives of animals who have until now been negatively affected in a manner that registers in their consciousness by human involvement.

    Comparing an animal to a person is understandable, at least, while comparing an animal to a plant is just ridiculous. I get frustrated everytime I see a "what about killing plants" question and people respond like it warrants consideration. Plants are in no way comparable to animals in what they 'feel,' so far as we are able to know.

  30. #30
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,830

    Default

    Quote undercoverbrother
    I don't think it's fair to compare the eating of animals, with eating a pet. A pet is an animal you have formed an emotional bond with. There are many things you wouldn't say or do to a person you care about vs. a complete stranger. The emotional connection changes your actions. Some people form an emotional bond with a household plant, and would never imagine cutting it up, and throwing it in a bowl for food.
    I hope you wouldn't eat a human being that you didn't have an emotional bond with?

    It would be interesting to hear your reply to the following questions:

    1) What is a good reason to eat animals (except the fact that you of course like meat - because you are used to it)
    2) What are the conditions you set for what you find suitable for eating and what not? (Lack of) emotional bonds? Or is the important part, the scale by which you measure 'eatability' in your 'I don't equate the value of an animal to the value of another human life'-statement?
    3) What conditions do you use when you make that decision about which lives that are important to save and which are not?
    4) Even if animals are different from you and me, and you are different from me, does that give is a right to eat the ones that are different?
    5) Is there any reason to believe that the pain an animal feels is less painful that the pain a human being feels?
    6) And, if you think pain, and not the right to live is the issue, why is it no OK to kill a human being by giving them an overdose of sleeping pills? I know that you don't mean pain is the issue for humans, but why would pain one the only 'measurement' to take into consideration when discussing the ethics associated with killing an animal?
    7) Do you think you still not would find it 'wrong' to kill and eat animals if you grew up in a time or culture where almost everybody else would disagree with you?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  31. #31
    undercoverbrother
    Guest

    Default

    1) What is a good reason to eat animals (except the fact that you of course like meat - because you are used to it)

    I eat meat for the nutritional value of meat, and yes of course I like it. I am aware that I can be just as, if not healthier eating only vegetables. But I like variety.

    2) What are the conditions you set for what you find suitable for eating and what not? (Lack of) emotional bonds? Or is the important part, the scale by which you measure 'eatability' in your 'I don't equate the value of an animal to the value of another human life'-statement?

    All animals I suppose are edible, I just choose to not eat all forms of animals. The process for choosing what to eat is completely arbitrary. But it is my belief that this land, and its fruit (animals, and plants) were placed here for man to enjoy, and live off of.


    3) What conditions do you use when you make that decision about which lives that are important to save and which are not?

    I am sure that I have justified eating animals the same way in which you have justified eating a plant. All are life, and you have been able to come to the conclusion that it is ok to end a life for your benefit. The argument of plants not feeling pain does not make your activities valid, it is merely the justification you have developed to help you be comfortable with killing plants. Either way, you are choosing to end a life, a life you have valued as less than yours.

    4) Even if animals are different from you and me, and you are different from me, does that give is a right to eat the ones that are different?

    This is a weak question; you are still referring to human life. Human life = Human life, Plants and Animals < Humans.

    5) Is there any reason to believe that the pain an animal feels is less painful that the pain a human being feels?

    No. But is there any reason to believe that a plantís life is less valuable than a Humanís?

    6) And, if you think pain, and not the right to live is the issue, why is it no OK to kill a human being by giving them an overdose of sleeping pills? I know that you don't mean pain is the issue for humans, but why would pain one the only 'measurement' to take into consideration when discussing the ethics associated with killing an animal?

    I think my point is clear, animals are not equally important as Man. Therefore killing a man is not relevant to the issue of killing an animal for food. I donít believe that killing animals is necessary to eliminate, I only would want to eliminate as much pain as possible.

    7) Do you think you still not would find it 'wrong' to kill and eat animals if you grew up in a time or culture where almost everybody else would disagree with you?

    I think I would still be fine with it.

  32. #32
    undercoverbrother
    Guest

    Default

    I am only replying. I wouldn't attempt to come in here and just attack people. Or join other discussions in this forum and debate. I am sorry if I offended you. That was not my intent.


    Thanks

  33. #33
    feline01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    ?
    Posts
    874

    Default

    Vegan Forum Board Guidelines:

    "Welcome! Here are the guidelines for The Vegan Forum: 1) The Vegan Forum is a site for vegans - in other words, for people who are against harming and killing animals, and therefore against using animal products. 2) People who want to go vegan and have questions or need support are also most welcome. 3) No trolling please! If you visit us in order to promote the benefits of eating meat, anti-vegan ideas or other sites - please don't."


    undercoverbrother-where do you fit into the above? Hmmmm, I wonder. Could you begin with a T and end with roll?

  34. #34
    undercoverbrother
    Guest

    Default

    I would say # 2. I never came in here to promote eating meat. And I never was against your views, just didn't share them. I in no way think you're wrong. I just didn't change my views after further research

  35. #35

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    41

    Default

    Quote feline01
    other-where do you fit into the above? Hmmmm, I wonder. Could you begin with a T and end with roll?
    Just what I was thinking Feline, do you think we should stop feeding it??

  36. #36
    undercoverbrother
    Guest

    Default

    yes

  37. #37
    feline01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    ?
    Posts
    874

    Default

    Yeah, Ruby-you're right. If you stop feeding them, they disappear.

  38. #38
    undercoverbrother
    Guest

    Default

    Its really simple, if you don't want to discuss this any further you can stay out of it. If there are members who want to discuss it they can. You are willingly participating, and reading this discussion. It's like watching tv, you just change the channel.

  39. #39

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    41

    Default

    Go on then, I'll throw you a bone (any particular preference??) what really is the point of anyone continuing to discuss the matter with you any further. You've already elicited plenty of intelligent, reasoned and rational responses about your original question, yet you see no reason to change your views, therefore WHY should we continue to discuss something with someone who obviously cannot see the wood for the trees???

  40. #40
    Geoff
    Guest

    Default

    Undercoverbrother. I, for one, would appreciate it if you would go away and annoy someone else.
    With such a huge disaster in my part of the world I don't need aggravation from you. Find something more sensible and useful to do with your time.
    Thank you.

  41. #41
    julieruble
    Guest

    Default

    The determining factor as to why vegans eat plants and not animals is sentience. What is your determining factor as to why you'll eat animals but not humans?

  42. #42
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,830

    Default

    Hi, I'm actually (partially) responsible for UCB's activities here, as we still have a thread and some posts from people who clearly are not vegans - I even asked him questions re. his views. We are sending two signals at the same time; one saying that this is only a place for people who are vegans or have decided to go vegan, and another saying that it's OK to join in and discuss with us even if you are 'on the other side'.

    For now, I think it's a good idea to stick to our guidelines... maybe, at some point - (or maybe not), we will include a subforum inside the Not A Vegan Yet-forum, called 'Not A Vegan', for people who are sincerely interested in understanding more about what this vegan thing is all about. Many people who are not vegans or members of this forum could use a place to discuss vegan ideas with vegans - without knowing the outcome of such a discussion. Vegans can't expect more people to stop eating/using animal products if we refuse to talk with them before they already have declared that they agree with us - but, until now (and still) this is a forum who has made that decision.

    So, again: please don't blame UCB - blame me. To UCB; please come back later if/when we decide to create a dark little corner for meat eaters to come and have a chat with us, OK? You say that you somewhat fit in with #2 above ("People who want to go vegan and have questions or need support"), but from what you write, you definitely don't sound like someone who want to go vegan - and that's OK. It's just that this is a forum for people who have made the decision, and you haven't. Sorry for the confusion, everybody.

    There still a lot to read here, and more will come really soon, as we just got back 18000 posts that have been missing for a week or so (many/most of they will be visible to everybody by this time tomorrow).
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  43. #43
    undercoverbrother
    Guest

    Default

    Thanks Korn. I will continue reading through the rest of the forum. And will look forward to a site that welcomes non-vegans. Thank you to those of you willing to discuss your views, and in some way defend your views.

    For those of you not willing, I hope you understand that the first step someone has to take to change their belief system to being a vegan, is first understanding a vegan. You shouldn't look down upon someone who doesn't share your views. You should welcome the questions from someone who cares enough to want to understand.

  44. #44
    Useless Dork Tofu Monster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    250

    Default

    Quote undercoverbrother
    Thank you to those of you willing to discuss your views, and in some way defend your views.
    I'd have thought that non-vegans with a genuine interest could glean enough useful information about veganism simply by browsing the abundance of vegan-related info on this site, and in that sense non-vegans are more than welcome to visit! I myself do that on other forums; it can be very revealing. But I don't bother to register and start discussing the issues from a contradictory standpoint just to get a rise out of someone or to amuse myself.

    I like the fact that this forum is a place where vegans can get away from having to 'defend our views': we face enough of that cobblers in the 'real' world!

    Plus, when you know you're right, defending your views is a pain in the arse!

  45. #45
    undercoverbrother
    Guest

    Default

    Well if you really read my post you would see that I didn't "bother to register and start discussing the issues from a contradictory standpoint just to get a rise out of someone or to amuse myself."

    "Plus, when you know you're right, defending your views is a pain in the arse! "
    That's the turn off to trying to understand someone, and in general the turn off in talking to most vegans. To be so arrogant to feel that your view is the absolute right way will not sit well with many. Your view is simply your view. I can take the attitude, that my view is the right view....but that doesn't make it so. It's like religion or spirituality, there isn't one right religion, or one way to truly be spiritual. Your decision to be vegan is based on your OPINION on how we should live on this planet.

  46. #46
    PinkFluffyCloud
    Guest

    Default

    Arrogance takes many forms.

    I think it is arrogant to suggest that there is no moral dilema with eating a creature that has had no natural life, has been used and abused, broken, and then, finally, forced into a slaughterhouse amongst the cries of it's family and companions, made to smell the stench of blood and fear, and then had its throat slit and its body dismembered, whilst on the other hand suggesting that there *is* a moral dilema with eating plants.

    The thing you need to understand about Vegans is that we have made our 'choice' because we do not wish to be part of a system which inflicts cruelty, torture, fear, pain, and death - not because we have nothing better to worry about! It's a lot easier to not care, to go around with your eyes and ears shut, humming a happy tune!

    When people care so much about others (even if those others may not be human others), they are bound to get a little evangelical about it. I know that this is an unattractive quality, but it happens because we care so very much - not about other people's opinions, but about the horrors endured by animals each and every day.

    There is no reason to eat meat, that just makes the horror even worse.
    Have you had much intereaction with animals in your lifetime, undercover?
    Because, if you have, you will know how caring, how intelligent they are - all animals. They feel pain, this is surely undisputed - they feel joy, they feel sorrow. When one of their friends (animal or human) dies or disappears, they mourn, they grieve. When they are unwell, they mope. When treated with kindness, they give love and affection. When kept confined they become depressed and confused. I have seen dogs go stir-crazy in kennels. Imagine what it is like for a Battery Farm Hen, or a Veal Calf, pining for its mother, alone, uncertain, confused, frightened. They do not compare to a Carott, a Cauliflower, an Apple.

    I dream about animals at night, they are fearful, they need someone to help them. I wish I could scoop them all up in my arms and keep them safe and warm. That is why I get frustrated, and sometimes hostile, I cannot understand that some people could think that it is 'normal' to live off the back of such cruelty.

  47. #47
    feline01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    ?
    Posts
    874

    Default

    Very well stated PFC

  48. #48
    chakra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    58

    Default

    My earliest exposure to vegetarianism was in San Francisco's Haight district. This was in a very positive and creative environment, and was primarily health oriented, with the concern for animal welfare coming forth to me over time. The first actual complete "vegans" I knew where some friends from college days that came out West. They were very stern and severe as well as being highly self-righteous about it. They created a puritanical religious aura around it which was destined to convert absolutely no one. In fact they tended to push you away from it.

    Those folks are no longer vegetarian. Last time I saw him, he was taking a smoke break at the back door of a natural food superstore market. They sell meat. The strictness of character that attended their lifestyle seems to have doomed it, while I've not eaten meat since 1987 this time around.

    I wonder if an open and non-hostile debate or discussion with the non-vegan might be as constructive to vegetarians as it potentially is for the interested non-vegetarian.
    I am a tangerine ;)

  49. #49
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,830

    Default

    Do you consider going vegan, UCB?

    If you do, what is it that makes you consider doing it?

    (The reason I ask is that most of your arguments are not supportive of how vegans generally look at life.)
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  50. #50
    PinkFluffyCloud
    Guest

    Default

    Chakra, as with Bob Dylan, (you made me remember how I once loved his music so, and I re-found my Dylan 'faith ), - your comments on this issue have made me re-think my own attitude a bit!
    I have certainly scared others off in the past by hassling them about what they eat, etc.
    However, as I did get very upset about the 'non-vegan-day' thread, maybe I too should show a little more understanding, it can't do any harm - can it??

Similar Threads

  1. Diseases linked to proximity to animals, not just eating them
    By soilman in forum Animal products and health risks
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: May 21st, 2010, 02:24 PM
  2. What separates humans from animals
    By PinkFluffyCloud in forum Animals
    Replies: 86
    Last Post: Jul 27th, 2006, 12:45 AM
  3. Humans urged to adopt animal eating patterns
    By eve in forum LOCAL FORUMS AND TRAVELING
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Apr 28th, 2006, 04:30 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •