About eating animals because they are not as 'important' as humans

[Korn]

1) What is a good reason to eat animals (except the fact that you of course like meat - because you are used to it)

I eat meat for the nutritional value of meat, and yes of course I like it. I am aware that I can be just as, if not healthier eating only vegetables.

So then I guess we agree that 'nutritional value' is not 'a good reason', right?

But I like variety.

IMHO variety is not really a good reason either, because there is plenty of variety in plant based diet.

But it is my belief that this land, and its fruit (animals, and plants) were placed here for man to enjoy, and live off of.

Then, why are you interested in going vegan? (Btw, animals and fruit are really different from each other. Please look again)

All are life, and you have been able to come to the conclusion that it is ok to end a life for your benefit.

No. Like most people, I just don't consider picking an apple 'killing'. You should try harder explain how you find two so dramatically different things as a lamb and a carrot equal, or of equal importance.

The argument of plants not feeling pain does not make your activities valid, it is merely the justification you have developed to help you be comfortable with killing plants.

No, and I have not met any meat eaters who truly think of eating a strawberries 'killing' them. Like you, I have never had any reason to justify 'killing plants'.

Either way, you are choosing to end a life, a life you have valued as less than yours.

If you really believe in this - and I know you don't - why not just eat plants that already are what you call 'dead', like apples that already have fallen from the tree?

You said that you were eating animals, but not humans: humans and animals were not equal. So equality seem to be a condition. But why? Does the fact that someone is less 'important' give you the right to eat it?

5) Is there any reason to believe that the pain an animal feels is less painful that the pain a human being feels?

No. But is there any reason to believe that a plantês life is less valuable than a Humanês?

Yes. They don't scream, they are not made in a way that makes it possible for them to escape. They don't treat their parents or children like humans and animals. Plants are simply very different from humans/animals.

I think my point is clear, animals are not equally important as Man. Therefore killing a man is not relevant to the issue of killing an animal for food.

Are all humans equally important to you? If not, what do you think about eating humans that are as 'important' as others? Let's just drop this... isn't it easier just to admit that importance isn't the issue here?

I don't believe that killing animals is necessary to eliminate, I only would want to eliminate as much pain as possible.

So stop eating animals!

7) Do you think you still not would find it 'wrong' to kill and eat animals if you grew up in a time or culture where almost everybody else would disagree with you?

I think I would still be fine with it.

But that was not the question.

Do you really think people who grow up in a meat eating society (and who therefore eat meat as adults) has chosen their diet without being influenced by their environment?

[undercoverbrother]

I can understand all your points Korn you make some very strong arguments, however I haven’t been able to feel the same moral outrage with taking an animal’s life for food. I don’t feel this is simply taking a life simply for the sake of killing. It would be a different story if we were talking about hunting for sport, or for cosmetic purposes. I am speaking to the subject of eating animals.

I bring up the subject of killing plants, because to me I feel that vegans have developed a criteria for taking life, this criteria allows them to kill plants for food. This criterion of not being able to run away, and the argument of a plant not screaming, or feeling pain, is all justifications for killing the plant, but I feel it is arrogant to not understand that this point of view is strictly an opinion, and not the only moral position to take. You are still taking life. That is the issue I have with being vegan. How is arbitrarily deciding to end a plant’s life any different than a person who feels its ok to take an animals life? Some non-vegans would argue that an animal has no soul; therefore taking an animal’s life is morally justified. I’m not saying that is right…but it is no less arbitrary than a vegan deciding why it is ok to take a plant’s life.

PFC mentioned animals, and their reaction to when one of their friends dies…What do you say then about the belief of some growers who feel their plants grow stronger, or recover more quickly if you talk to the plants, or play music for the plants? Wouldn’t this indicate a plant’s awareness, does this make killing a plant wrong? Would killing a Venus-flytrap be wrong? If so, then does that mean that it’s ok to kill some plants, and not others? Then how do we know it’s not ok to kill some animals, and not others?

[Korn]

Hi, we could go on forever, but if you want to continue, please reply to my questions from my two last posts. Instead of two-way communication, we have now just entered a 'loop'.

I haven't been able to feel the same moral outrage with taking an animal's life for food.

But it's OK to kill in order to give your tastebuds more 'variety', even if every vegan you'll come across will tell you that vegans normally have more variety in their diet than non-vegans ?

It's ironic that the 'variety-argument' often comes from people who have had a piece of dead animal and two overcooked vegetables (on of them being a potato) for dinner all their lives.

If you are really interested in finding out more about this need for variety, why not try vegan food for some weeks or months, and then make a decision? How can you compare when you have only tried one of the two options in question?

This criterion of not being able to run away, and the argument of a plant not screaming, or feeling pain, is all justifications for killing the plant, but I feel it is arrogant to not understand that this point of view is strictly an opinion, and not the only moral position to take. You are still taking life.

That's what I mean by loop. You write something, I respond to eat, but you just repeat your first statement after that. The word 'justification' implies that I would feel, or mean, or believe that eat an apple is 'killing'. I don't, and 99.99% of the vegan and non-vegan population on our planet will agree. The word 'opinion' is also wrong, as I already have explained. I don't 'mean' that eating fruit is killing, or not killing, I'm following my intuition.

For almost everybody, maybe not including you, dividing an apple in two would feel very different from dividing an alive squirrel in two. Imagine that you have a knife in your hand, and on the floor beneath you, there is a rabbit and a carrot (you don't know any of them, don't have any 'emotional bonds' to any of them). If you loose the knife, wouldn't you instinctively hope/feel that it's better if the knife would hit the carrot instead of the rabbit? Or don't you care? Don't you feel that the 'life' of the carrot is 'less important', to use your own terms, than the life of the rabbit? Please reply to this one as well. Because, if the life of the rabbit is more important to you than the 'life' of the carrot, and 'importance' is a main issue for you, wouldn't the best ethical choice be to 'kill' carrots for food instead of killing rabbits?

If 'importance' is the issue, then the ethical consequence be that it would be OK to eat non-important humans as well. But I hope you agree that it's not. And you know why? Because the way you use the importance-'parameter' is way off the track: you wouldn't eat non-important human because you know that the life of this being is important to itself. And even if you wouldn't worry about killing a rabbit with your knife, don't forget that the life of this rabbit is important - to the rabbit itself.


I you don't want to reply to the questions you are asked here, this isn't really two-way communication, and then it might be just as fruitful to read a book, don't you think?

[PinkFluffyCloud]

Aye, Korn!
I have two more things to say.
Do you feel, undercover, that it is 'wrong' to 'kill' a plant?? Because, if you do, please explain why, and why you feel that it is ok for you to eat animal flesh but NOT eat 'dead' plants.
Also, as I am such an open-minded soul, and I happen to love plants, please show me a case for believing that they feel pain, fear, and love - and I mean evidence to scientifically prove that, beyond doubt, and I will happily become a windfall-Fruitarian.

Btw, animals definitely *do* have souls - I have seen evidence from the afterlife.

[Korn]

PFC, I think that he thinks that since both plants and animals have a life, my 'avoid killing-argument' is not valid. And as a reply to your second question, he might refer to the book 'The Secret Life of Plants'. The importance of the life of a given plant, human or animal seem to be the issue, and that when I say that I don't look at the life of a plant the same way as I look at the life of an animal, I'm just having an 'opinion'. To me, there is a huge difference between opinion, guess, assumption, feeling or belief, but even if it was my opinion, so be it.

Most discussions between meat-eaters and veg'ns I've witnessed have ended up with not really getting anywhere + a growing list of questions asked by the veg'ns that not are being replied to by the meat eaters. Let's see how this develops...

[Korn]

I only wanted to try to understand your views. However, I don't feel I really gained any further insight.

Dear UCB, I don't know how old you are, but if you have been eating meat, been thinking like a meat eater and been surrounded by meat eaters for ie. 20 years, don't expect that letting go of old eating habits (or thought patterns) only will take a few days.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

The thing is, Korn, that someone has to *want* to change before they are receptive.
Maybe a seed can be planted (oops, pardon the plant metaphor!), and will germinate slowly afterwards?
I'm always optimistic!

[tails4wagging]

When you know that there is no such thing as 'cruelty free meat' there is no way you can eat the stuff.

As I am Animal Rights and know the truth about 'meat' there is no way meat or dairy crosses my path at all. I refuse even to buy dairy milk for anyone who asks me to get some for them as I consider I would contribute to the cruelty behind it.

[Suzulan]

undercoverbrother, I know how you feel because when I kept posting my messages on my own forum where most visiters are anti animal rights/anti vegans, I was being attacked and insulted.
I think people should be more patient with you knowing nobody was born vegan.
Please let me know how do you feel after you finish reading message of activist.

People are in such denial, so defensive about eating animals. I believe that the desire for flesh, by most people, would cease if they saw the slaughter of living animals take place.
Indeed, I believe it should be a requirement of meat eaters to look into the eyes and witness the fear and trembling of a living, terrified, fellow animals, about to be cruelly slaughtered.
You then, can see how far removed from that bloody carnage to the neatly wrapped packages on the store shelves, shoppers would choose to be, and are.
Most of the people who casually toss the meat into their baskets consider themselves to be compassionate and civilized. When in fact they have just participated in a holocaust.

[Tombstone]

A few points to consider Brother:

1) Do you think there should be anti animal cruelty laws?

2) Do you think there should be anti plant cruelty laws?

3) The word 'life' people are using is irrelevent. It is a sad misfortune that the word 'life' is used to describe plants along with animals. Yes plants reproduce, grow etc. But they are very different to animals to the extent that I do not consider it wrong to 'kill' them. Check out the dictionary definition of plants and animals. If I run at a plant with a knife, screaming, the plant does not run away. If I do the same to basically any animal, it will run away or try to defend itself - and while this is a primative experiment, it does go some way to explaining why I do not consider plants to be 'living' in the same way as anything else. So, you saying that vegans are 'justifying' killing a plant is redundant, given that really nobody considers them to be alive in the first place, it's just that the word 'alive' has been used to describe plants that this connection even exists. It's a linguistic device you are using, and not a logical one, given that anybody can clearly see the difference between plants and animals, and why there is such a moral different in eating them.

4) Please outline why animals are less important than humans to such an extent that they should be executed. You say that killing a human is wrong, and have frequently pointed out that killing animals for food is okay. If I kill a human and eat it, what's wrong with that? It's for food, and I like variety. Forgive the sarcasm. I do not see the MORAL difference between eating a human and animal, although I accept that physical difference. An animal does not need or deserve to die, as we have an optional menu to choose from. Animals in the wild are entirely instinctive with no optional menu, and are forced into their behaviour through lack of understanding and starvation. We can claim nothing of the sort, and we fully understand the notion of killing, and we have the option to avoid it.

[WebrunnerOne]

Ah I see, so we should be here only to find out how to make Vegan Foods and not bother finding out and teaching our children how to logically explain why they are Vegan to the people they will no doubt meet - such as classmates and other places they may socialize -- how should our children & teens fight off such arguements if we cant even figure out how to do that ourselves

Do Vegans live in Vegan comunities?? you never invite meat eaters to your table? Do you simply not associate with them??

If you do - then how do you answer their questions? Do you just side Step them and say - Im Vegan cause I want to be? Dont they Laugh at you? Dont you want then to understand why - and respect that choice as we do?

These are questions, NOT arguements - I simply ask questions, Im Not here to argue - just to gather information

Im not sure why I am constantly met with agressive debates - as a debate isnt my intention -- a simple logical answer to my questions is all im looking for - and its try those simple answers may lead to more questions.

If there is a site that lists all the answers to meat eaters arguements and questions - please direct me there.

[misia]

UCB - I don’t know if engaging in debate on a strictly vegan web site is the best way for you to resolve these issues. Allowing people who endure daily criticism and condescension a space to share ideas without having to justify themselves is a courtesy you might want to consider extending to the people on this site. However, though I understand everyone's frustration with your line of questioning, I personally find it interesting. Some of the points you've introduced do appear to be contradictions in philosophy. I've asked the same questions myself.

If the issue is taking life, it appears to be unavoidable. Even treating an infection, by the basic cellular definition of life, is technically killing. It seems that the only way to realistically avoid taking life is to not exist. If the issue is avoiding "specism", how can I assume that something suffers only if the characteristics of its suffering reflect my own and conversely, how can I be sure that I’m not anthropomorphizing another species? I can't. If the issue is suffering, then your question would seem theoretically valid though completely irrelevant otherwise, which is why I choose to dismiss it. I'm not aware of any way to inflict death without suffering. Fear and pain are unavoidable consequences. Do you have a revolutionary slaughtering technique in mind UCB? If you don’t, it seems that you are just being argumentative (which is fine with me).

Let me ask you this – just because you are not always capable of being kind or generous to others, is that justification for being relentlessly selfish or cruel? Your entire argument appears to be based on the assumption that if perfection can’t be achieved then the ethic in question can’t be worthwhile or necessary; I don’t see this as justification for abandoning certain principles. Causing the least amount of suffering as possible is a cause I’m sure you can relate to on some level. You seem to be asking why vegans choose to take this concept to a further "extreme", whereas by that same logic I might ask you why you haven’t. Why not do as much as you can? "Nature" really isn’t an excuse because it is just as natural for human beings to make these kinds of choices as it is for another species not to. You and I both advocate "conditional" compassion; the difference being, my condition is the preservation of my own existence (I don’t consider myself any less important than any other living thing) and you draw the line at giving up cheeseburgers. Regardless, compassion does not become hypocritical just because it can’t be practiced absolutely.

Lastly, veganism is not just based on animal ethics. There are a countless other environmental, social and health concerns to consider when deciding whether or not to support the meat/animal product industry. Boycotting this industry is just as advantageous to human beings as it is to other species. You stated that our choice isn’t based on anything very convincing, but if it is beneficial for animals, humans and the environment (do your research here), how can you argue that the pleasurable taste of meat and an inability to unconditionally avoid suffering/killing is a superior argument? Besides, objectivity / logic / science has it’s own set of limitations that often don’t account for some of the things we value most as human beings: love, kindness, creativity can’t be measured in any methodical way.

Thanks for making me think a little harder than usual UCB J - I sincerely encourage you to look further than this message board for answers. It’s a more complex issue than you could ever imagine. It took countless hours of reading before I became convinced and I was initially as annoyed with some of the more dogmatic arguments for veganism as you probably are. There are some amazingly erudite, intellectual arguments out there but they don’t really lend themselves to a message board format, especially if you want evidence and documentation.

[Korn]

how should our children & teens fight off such arguements if we cant even figure out how to do that ourselves

The real question is why someone would try to make their children vegans if they can't figure out the arguments pro being vegan and against exploiting animals, isn't it? EVen if vegan parents have all the arguments and explanations right, their kids may still become meat eaters. All we can do is to do what we feel is right, and explain why we think what we do is right...

Do Vegans live in Vegan comunities?? you never invite meat eaters to your table? Do you simply not associate with them??

Most people in here have lots of contact with meat eaters - daily - which is a major reason we want this forum to be different from daily life, which for some people may contain a lot questions about their viewpoints....

If you do - then how do you answer their questions?

I think most vegans improvise a little here, but of course, we can't go through all our viewpoints every time we talk with a meat eater...

Dont you want them to understand why

Sure - but we don't invite them over to bring non-vegan arguments into our thousands of threads... If we would, this wouldn't be a vegan forum anymore.

If there is a site that lists all the answers to meat eaters arguements and questions - please direct me there.

Have you seen this?
There are several similar threads, commenting comments from non-vegans...

[Seaside]

Regardless, compassion does not become hypocritical just because it can’t be practiced absolutely.

Wonderfully stated! That's siggy material. I may quote you. Or put it on a T-shirt, or something.

[Troub]

If the killing of animals was done in a way that an animal didn't feel pain, would that eliminate the objections to the consumtion of animals? And if "pain" is the issue, then what is the objection to using the products of animals, such as eggs,fur, and milk?

Regardless if the animal was killed with no pain or with pain, its still the act of killing it.
When I first made the switch to this lifestyle, it was about the extreme pain and torture that animals go through so we may eat their flesh, wear their skins, etc.
It has become more of respecting a creatures life, and increasing my own personal health. The more I found out the more I wanted to stop putting animal products into my body. Its a win-win situation for me.
"Kill an animal without causing it pain" Sedate it first? Bullet through the head? I mean if im "causing pain" or not, im still ending its life.

[gertvegan]

I'm not an animal rights activist nor do I believe it's a quote 'sin' to eat meat ...... slitting it's throat and the animal dies pretty much pain/suffering free)

The conditions at slaughter though are not the main issue. It is the killing itself that is wrong imo and it remains wrong however 'humanely' it is done. Would we ever excuse a child murderer for killing his victims 'humanely'?

However, we treat animals HORRENDOUSLY

You got it.

I have to say that I have felt TONS better after cutting meat out of my diet.

Good to hear.

[Maisiepaisie]

Yahweh laid out strict guidelines on how animals should be killed (the Kosher way, which is by slitting it's throat and the animal dies pretty much pain/suffering free)

I don't see how having your throat slit can be pain/suffering free. All cuts hurt, especially when they bleed. Religious slaughter is the worst slaughter. http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/ritual_slaughter/

[j_sendog]

I'm not opposed to being vegan. I just haven't made it there yet. It's hard to quit everything cold turkey, that's all!

[j_sendog]

I removed my post because I guess it offended some people. I'm open to all sides. I like to see peoples different points of view, but I do understand why you feel the way you do. Maybe I'll start to see things differently. I guess I still think humans are more important to take care of than animals. For instance, if I had a choice between feeding a homeless do vs. a homeless man, I would def choose the man, ya know? But that's just me.

[Korn]

I just moved the posts about discussions with non-vegans - ie. in a separate (sub-)forum... they are now here.

[Korn]

I guess I still think humans are more important to take care of than animals. For instance, if I had a choice between feeding a homeless do vs. a homeless man, I would def choose the man, ya know? But that's just me.

I'm guessing, but imagine that most species would rather try to ie. save the life of their own kids, family members or 'species members' rather than for example risk their life for someone from a different species. I'd rather try to try save a child from drowning than a mosquito or a mouse, if they all would fall into the sea at the same time and I only could save one of them. But to stick to the topic of this thread, that doesn't give me a reason to eat meat.