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Thread: Arthritis and vegan remedies / painkillers

  1. #51
    Grow LunaVanillaVega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Arthritis and vegan remedies / painkillers

    I've had chronic arthritis since I was a child -- it's been quite the battle, but, I've found a few things that seem to help: stretching exercises, and lots of ginger, pineapple, and mustard in my diet. I've never tried cherries, but, seems like a great idea!

    Here's some good info, I hope this helps:

    Herbs & Foods --

    " ... The herb ginger possesses potent antioxidant compounds, called shogaols and gingerols, which act as natural anti-inflammatory agents. Preliminary research involving ginger indicates that it helps to ameliorate symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis. And curcumin, the active ingredient of the yellow spice turmeric, may lessen symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis by reducing inflammation. "

    Info taken from this site:
    http://www.wholehealthmd.com/hk/reme...59,567,00.html

    " Stinging Nettle - Stinging nettle is rich in the mineral baron, which may be helpful in treating arthritis. Baron helps the body retain calcium, and has a benificial influence on the body's harmonal system which plays a role in helping the body maintain healthy bones and joints. "

    "Comfrey - Comfrey is one of nature's greatest arthritis remedies. Comfrey soothes and heals inflamed tissues, and it helps reduce swelling and pain in a most remarkable way. Comfrey root is made into a tincture for external use only."

    Info taken from this site:
    http://www.pikeherb.com/arthritis.htm

    "Mustard Plaster [mustard applied topically to the effected joint](Brassica alba, Brassica juncea) Mustard plaster is a popular counterirritant treatment for arthritis. The irritating substance in mustard is allyl- isothyocyanate. This constituent is not activated, however, until the seeds are crushed and mixed with some liquid. Only then does the mustard produce the irritation necessary for the counterirritant effect.

    Dosage and Directions: Crush the seeds of white or brown mustard or grind them in a seed grinder. Moisten the mixture with vinegar, then sprinkle with flour. Spread the mixture on a cloth. Place the cloth, poultice side down, on the skin. Leave on for no more than twenty minutes. Remove if the poultice becomes uncomfortable. After removing the poultice, wash the affected area."

    "Pineapple (Ananas comosus). Bromelain, a chemical in pineapple, helps prevent inflammation. Athletic trainers have been reportedly recommending pineapple to athletes to prevent and treat sports injuries. It is believed to have beneficial effect on arthritis also. Bromelain can help the body get rid of immune antigen complex, compounds that are implicated in some arthritic conditions. It also helps digest fibrin, another compound suspected of being involved in some types of arthritis."

    Info taken from this site:
    http://www.holistic-online.com/Remed...ne.htm#Mustard


    Vitamins/Minerals --

    " Low levels of vitamin E have been found in the joint fluid of rheumatoid arthritis patients. The antioxidant properties of vitamin E are thought to protect joint cells from free radical damage.
    Leading Food Sources of vitamin E: broccoli*, almonds, avocados, mangoes, peanuts, sunflower seeds, and Brazil nuts"

    Info taken from this site:
    http://www.wholehealthmd.com/hk/reme...59,567,00.html

    *Broccoli is very high in calcium, which is helpful, too!

    Vitamin C also helps reduce inflamation and pain in the body...
    some food high in vit C: strawberries, kiwi fruit, lemons, oranges, tangerines, and other citrus fruits, peppers, and cabbages
    "Ignorance is a curable disease"

  2. #52
    Festival Buddy Frank's Avatar
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    Default Excess Protein Damages the Bones

    More reasons to dump meat.

    Excess Protein Damages the Bones = Osteoporosis John McDougall MD

    Worldwide, rates of hip fractures (and kidney stones) increase with increasing animal protein consumption (including dairy products). For example, people from the USA, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Australia, and New Zealand have the highest rates of osteoporosis. 15,16 The lowest rates are among people who eat the fewest animal-derived foods (these people are also on lower calcium diets) – like the people from rural Asia and rural Africa.15,16

    Osteoporosis is caused by several controllable factors; however, the most important one is the foods we choose – especially the amount of animal protein and the foods high in acid.17-19 The high acid foods are meat, poultry, fish, seafood, and hard cheeses – parmesan cheese is the most acidic of all foods commonly consumed.20 This acid must be neutralized by the body.21 Carbonate, citrate and sodium are alkaline materials released from the bones to neutralize the acids. Fruits and vegetables are alkaline and as a result a diet high in these plant foods will neutralize acid and preserve bones. The acidic condition of the body caused by the Western diet also raises cortisol (steroid) levels. 22 Elevated cortisol causes severe chronic bone loss – just like giving steroid medication for arthritis causes severe osteoporosis.

    (Renal Acid load per 100 calories) 23,24

    Beef 6.3
    Chicken 7.0
    Fish (cod) 9.3
    Cheddar Cheese 10

    Potato -5.0
    Peas 1.0
    Wheat flour 1.0
    Bananas -6.0
    Apples -5.0
    Spinach -56
    Tomatoes -18

    (A positive value indicates acidic, whereas a negative value indicates alkaline).

    Osteoporosis is a real health problem, affecting many more women than men. However, the emphasis needs to be placed on prevention with diet and exercise, rather than on expensive and relatively ineffective tests and drug treatments. Money is the obvious reason for the misplaced emphasis.

    They Say Most Women Have Bad Bones

    The first step in “disease mongering” is to define a disease in a manner that will lead to huge profits by selling the potential customer expensive tests and treatments. With osteoporosis this is done by establishing the diagnosis of this disease by measuring the density of the bones – bone mineral density (BMD).

    According to the BMD standards used today, about two-thirds of middle-aged and older women in Western countries have bone disease worthy of testing and treatment. For example, using the population of British Columbia in 1995, estimates are 536,000 of the 813,560 women over age 40 (that is 66%) would be labeled as either having “osteoporosis” or a pre-osteoporosis condition, “osteopenia.”2 Another recent study found low BMD in 44% of participants younger than 65 years, and in 70% older than 65.3 The World Health Organization has estimated that 30% of all women over 50 (postmenopausal women) have osteoporosis.4 Stated in meaningful financial figures, the majority of women middle-aged and beyond are sick and in need of help from the “Broken Bone Businesses.”

    The consequences of all this disease-mongering go beyond dollars. Just the thought of taking a BMD test creates fear and anxiety in a woman. The diagnosis of “thin bones” changes a woman forever from “healthy” to “sick.” If testing was universally accepted, then most women after menopause would be encouraged to take drugs, like estrogen/progestin (HRT) or bisphosphonates, like Fosamax (alendronate) and Actonel. These medications are for a lifetime and they have real side effects and financial costs. Undoubtedly, the BMD examination has the potential to do much more harm than good.

    Drug Companies Create the Market

    The diagnostic criteria of BMD used by drug companies, and almost all doctors, were set up by the World Health Organizations (WHO). The WHO established the bone density (BMD) of young white women as “normal,” and as the standard by which to judge the bones of older women. Your suspicions should be raised by knowing a key meeting for the WHO group defining the diagnosis of osteoporosis was funded by three pharmaceutical companies.1

    The second step in “disease mongering” is to aggressively search for older women with bones less dense than those of young women. In order to increase the number of “sick women” in need of medications, pharmaceutical companies encourage women to have their BMD measured by promoting testing through medical doctors, and by conveniently providing free or low-cost testing at shopping centers, workplaces, and health fairs. Realize, because of changes in a woman’s physical activity, her levels of female hormones, and her reproductive role, her bones naturally become less dense as she becomes older. This change in her BMD does not mean she is now “diseased,” but rather that the demands on her skeletal tissues have changed with normal aging.

    The truth is that for most people the risk of a fracture is low and/or distant (limited mostly to the very elderly) and the benefit from any drug is small. Furthermore, while bone density is associated with fracture risk, this test is not accurate enough to guide doctors to proper treatments. A recent analysis of 11 separate study populations and over 2000 fractures found that bone mineral density "cannot identify individuals who will have a fracture.”5 The authors concluded, “We do not recommend a program of screening menopausal women for osteoporosis by measuring bone density.5 In other words, BMD testing does not accurately identify women who will go on to suffer a fracture as they age, and is, therefore, unable to accurately distinguish women at low risk of fracture from those at high risk.

    There are characteristics which will predict a woman’s risk for future fractures more accurately than BMD, such as her age, having a close relative with a history of a serious fracture, her activity level, and her overall quality of health. The reason for this is because fractures are due to poor overall bone quality, and not directly the result of a lesser amount of calcium found in her bones by testing.

    The Reason BMD Is Inaccurate6

    Bones are made of living tissues. Minerals, like calcium, are deposited within these tissues. Osteoporosis is caused by the disintegration of this vital structural material, which is made up of proteins, fats, minerals, and many other biologically active substances. When the bone tissues disintegrate, calcium is also lost. The loss of calcium seen on the BMD is misinterpreted to mean osteoporosis is caused by calcium loss – this is not true. Calcium is only one element necessary for the proper development of bone, and its presence alone cannot compensate for degenerating tissues.

    Confirming this poor association of calcium (BMD) and bone strength is the observation that “bone building drugs,” such as HRT and Fosamax, show a decrease in risk of fracture with very little improvement in BMD.6 One classic example of how “nice-looking bones,” with high BMD, can actually be very weak bones, is seen with fluoride treatment of osteoporosis. This mineral supplement noticeably increases bone density, yet at the same time bone fragility and fractures are dramatically increased because the bone tissues are sickened by the treatment.7 Surprising for many people is the fact that taking calcium supplements can actually suppress the growth of bone tissue (by suppressing parathyroid hormone activity) and increase the risk of fractures.6

    What Organizations Say about BMD

    Pharmaceutical industries provide funding for sham “consumer organizations,” such as the International Osteoporosis Foundation, to promote their agenda. Here is what this industry front says about BMD:

    “Bone mineral density (BMD) measurements are effective in assessing fracture risk, confirming a diagnosis of osteoporosis and monitoring the effect of treatment.”

    Other phony industry-sponsored “consumer organizations” with similar support for BMD and treatments are the US National Osteoporosis Foundation and the Osteoporosis Society of Canada.

    Now consider these assessments of the value of BMD made by organizations not supported by industries:2

    Office of Health Technology Assessment, University of British Columbia:
    “Research evidence does not support either whole population or selective bone mineral density testing of well women at or near menopause as a means to predict future fractures.”

    The International Network of Agencies for Health Technology Assessment:
    “The currently available evidence does not support the use of BMD screening in combination with hormone replacement therapy or intranasal salmon calcitonin treatment.”

    Canadian Task Force on the Periodic Health Examination:
    “Widespread bone mineral density screening is inadvisable at present.”

    U.S. Preventive Services Task Force:
    “There is insufficient evidence to recommend for or against routine screening for osteoporosis with bone densitometry in postmenopausal women.”

    Swedish Council on Technology Assessment in Health Care:
    “There is no scientific basis for recommending bone density measurement in mass screening, selective screening, or as an extra component in health check-ups of asymptomatic individuals (opportunistic screening).”

    University of Newcastle Osteoporosis Study Group, Australia:
    “In summary, the measurement of BMD is not a useful screening test for the identification of women at high risk of hip fracture and requiring preventative treatment with estrogens.”

    Effective Health Care Bulletin, U.K:
    “Given the current evidence, it would be inadvisable to establish a routine population based bone screening programme for menopausal women with the aim of preventing fractures.”

    Osteoporosis Is Real, Preventable, and Curable

    For most women, I recommend they do not have BMD testing done in the first place. If, however, they have already gone that route, and are now facing an abnormal BMD test result, then I recommend they delay accepting drug treatment (unless they have evidence of severe osteoporosis complicated by fractures). In most cases, a repeat BMD test two to three years later is the only future test I recommend. In the meantime, a woman should be eating a healthy diet and exercising. Her efforts are expected to cause her next BMD test results to be the same (showing no further loss) or improved (showing some gain) over the first test that initiated the doctor’s recommendation for drugs.

    A few women concerned about their bones may also choose HRT (I usually recommend estradiol 0.05 mg with 20 mg of progesterone to be used daily as a skin cream). HRT is very effective for strengthening bones, along with benefits for alleviating hot flashes and vaginal dryness. However, there are very small, but concerning, risks of breast and uterine cancer, blood clots, and gallbladder disease to consider in this decision. (Read the McDougall Program for Women book for much more information on these subjects.)

    The assaults on bone health caused by the American diet are well-established. The most serious damage comes from the high acid content of cheese, red meat, poultry, fish, seafood and eggs – the centerpieces of most people’s diets. After this acid enters the body it must be neutralized. The primary buffering (acid-neutralizing) system of the body is the bones, which dissolve to release alkaline substances. The next stage of loss occurs with the kidneys where the bone material is filtered into the toilet. Consuming alkaline foods (fruits and vegetables) is the most important step you can take to preserve your bones and actually reverse bone loss. (Note: legumes and grains are slightly acidic and should be limited by people at great risk for bone loss.) Exercise is an established way to rebuild lost bone and prevent future fractures.

    A woman is designed to live, on average, 85 years in good health. Logically, her bone tissues should be strong and fracture-resistant for all those years, too. In order to realize this life plan, a woman must resist billions of corporate dollars teaching false messages. Instead, as against other common diseases, she must defend herself and avoid the medical businesses by staying healthy by taking advantage of the simple cost-free effects of a proper diet and lifestyle.
    Last edited by Korn; Aug 22nd, 2009 at 11:36 AM. Reason: This was the first post in a similar thread
    I Think, Therefore I Am A Vegan

  3. #53
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Childhood use of cod liver oil: reduced bone mineral density?

    Childhood Cod Liver Oil Consumption and Bone Mineral Density in a Population-based Cohort of Peri- and Postmenopausal Women
    Use of cod liver oil, which is rich in vitamins A and D, is traditionally recommended during the fall and winter months as a protective measure against vitamin D deficiency in several countries. It is not known whether childhood cod liver oil intake is related to variations in bone mineral density (BMD) or fractures in adult life. In 2001, a total of 3,052 Norway women aged 50–70 years had forearm BMD measured in a substudy of the population-based Nord-Trøndelag Health Study. Women reporting no childhood cod liver oil intake had statistically significantly higher BMD than those with any ingestion of cod liver oil. The odds ratio for low BMD (>1 standard deviation below age-specific mean) in women reporting cod liver oil intake throughout the year as compared with women with no intake was 2.3 (95% confidence interval: 1.4, 3.9), adjusted for body mass index, smoking, menopausal status, estrogen use, and current milk consumption. There were indications of a negative dose-response effect of childhood cod liver oil intake on bone. Although the vitamin A content of commercial cod liver oil was recently reduced by 75% in Norway, the past high concentration remains a possible explanation for the observed negative association between childhood cod liver oil intake and forearm BMD.

  4. #54
    AnneCE's Avatar
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    Default Arthritis: vegan diets vs. omnivorous diets

    Interesting article on the benefits of vegan diet

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7301188.stm

    "Rheumatoid arthritis patients may be able to reduce their high risk of heart attacks and strokes with agluten-free, vegan diet, a study suggests."

    It is interesting because it looks at the effect of a vegan, gluten-free diet on our arteries, so not just relevant to people with RA.



  5. #55
    frugivorous aubergine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    Why do they always feel the need to put a warning at the end to satisfy the status quo?

  6. #56
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    "A vegan diet may be helpful in reducing cholesterol, but it is difficult to get enough of some important nutrients on a vegan diet."
    Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    Oh the ignorance. God forbid anyone actually fully advocate a vegan diet!

  7. #57
    Knolishing Pob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    Yeah, it was going well until that bit.

    Still a generally positive piece overall, though
    "Danger" could be my middle name … but it's "John"

  8. #58

    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    ... and it's currently the most emailed news item on the BBC News website so that's good too.

  9. #59
    Hemlock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    Quote aubergine View Post
    Why do they always feel the need to put a warning at the end to satisfy the status quo?
    Wow that must mean we vegans are LIVING ON THE EDGE wooooo! Blatantly ignoring the need for the missing nutrients in our diet - unlike all the fast/junk food addicts who naturally are getting all the nutrients they need as they eat meat

    What really aggravates me is that a vegan diet is only ever recommended when someone actually has the disease and is seriously ill! It's the same with diabetes, recommending a raw food diet to cure the problem after the horse has bolted.
    Why do they never recommend a vegan diet as a preventative measure to prevent the disease in the first place - bonkers
    Silent but deadly :p

  10. #60
    Making changes Est's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    Hemlock - that's exactly what I said to a work colleague this morning! It's so frustrating when these things are recommended as a cure instead of as a preventative.

  11. #61
    Hemlock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    Quote Est View Post
    Hemlock - that's exactly what I said to a work colleague this morning! It's so frustrating when these things are recommended as a cure instead of as a preventative.
    It's incredibly aggravating - but then they always describe a vegan diet as being 'too extreme'.
    My family curse is high blood pressure, bowel cancer and massive strokes. My mother and grandmother both had massive high blood pressure at my age, mine is 120/80 - completely normal even though I am overweight. I put that totally down to my healthy diet and have every intention of using diet to stay healthy.
    Tell anyone that and they look at you in disbelief!!!!
    Silent but deadly :p

  12. #62
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    yes, i never get this - how would animal tissue give you these mysterious missing nutrients when we are all constantly being told it's FRUIT AND VEGETABLES we need to eat more of!!!

  13. #63
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    We all know too that ominvores are much more likely to be 'lacking in important nutrients' than vegans are.
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  14. #64
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    As far as "difficulties with following a vegan diet" goes: almost everything worthwile is difficult in the beginning. Driving, parenting, new jobs, schools, exercise, you name it, it's all difficult. Veganism it's not the easiest thing to start, but by far not the most complicated either, and if it can make someone's symptoms and pain go away, the little inconvenience shouldn't be an issue really.
    "Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.

  15. #65
    Sluggie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    I've told my mother a couple of times that a vegan diet has been shown to help RA sufferers (she has the disease) but she just doesn't want to hear it.

  16. #66
    Metal Head emzy1985's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis: BBC News story

    The spokesperson who said it could be difficult to get all nutrients on a vegan diet must think we live off twigs and apples. Haha loser! Good article, shame about the slice of dead thing at the top.
    The taste of anything in my mouth for 5 seconds does not equate to the beauty and complexity of life.

  17. #67
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis: BBC News story

    [quote=emzy1985;433812] "said it could be difficult to get all nutrients on a vegan diet"
    Hi, emzy - I spotted this and my reaction was the same as yours
    I was going to contact the ARC myself, then thought better of it and sent the link to the Vegan Society (more clout!). They had a response very quickly, which included the following:

    "we recognise, of course, that many vegans are extremely health conscious, and we certainly did not intend to imply that a vegan diet is deficient. We simply wanted to make the point that vegans need to make sure that they get enough certain nutrients in their diet: these include Vitamin B12, iron, selenium, calcium and Omega-3 fatty acids.

    I hope this clarifies the charity's stance on this sensitive matter."

    Well, that was something, I suppose! [I'm still not sure why they think the diet would need to be gluten-free].
    Last edited by Mzee; Mar 21st, 2008 at 11:06 PM. Reason: ETA

  18. #68
    Metal Head emzy1985's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis: BBC News story

    [quote=Mzee;434036]
    Quote emzy1985 View Post
    "said it could be difficult to get all nutrients on a vegan diet"
    [I'm still not sure why they think the diet would need to be gluten-free].
    Because they are all numpties???
    The taste of anything in my mouth for 5 seconds does not equate to the beauty and complexity of life.

  19. #69
    Hemlock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis: BBC News story

    I suggested it to some of my rheumatoid patients, they almost fell off the chair right after looking at me like I was an alien with 2 heads.
    Seems like they would rather carry on as they are and rely on ever increasing drug dosages
    Silent but deadly :p

  20. #70
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis: BBC News story

    I met someone once who had really bad rheumatoid and was trying a meat-free diet, eating a lot of fish instead. I wish I could meet them again and try to convert them!

  21. #71

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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis: BBC News story

    I posted this on another non vegan site noboy was very interested i guess the ywould rather suffer than give up dairy

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    Default Arthritis? Calcium Deficiency?

    Since becoming vegan, I've been having joint problems... whilst I'd be surprised that I have a calcium deficiency, because I eat green veg and take a mutlivit containing calcium, I can't think of any reason why?
    Especially at work where I am on my feel all day, my feet and knees ache, my knees feel warm and sometimes hurt.. they are also very dry and creeky... I did try flaxseed oil for a while and that stopped the creekyness, but I am just wondering what is causing this? Any ideas?

  23. #73
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Arthritis? Calcium Deficiency?

    Hi,
    I'm sorry to hear about your problems... The links below may give you some useful info about possible reasons for arthritis, but since you don't know if you have arthritis (or are calcium deficient), maybe you should see a doctor?

    http://orthopedics.about.com/od/hipk.../arthritis.htm
    http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.asp?Id=3378
    http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/arth...htm#whatcauses
    http://www.doctoryourself.com/arthritis_II.html

  24. #74
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    Default Re: Arthritis? Calcium Deficiency?

    Hi, I'm sorry you have painful joints, I do to... It sucks! I have been researching things a bit and think my particular problem (although maybe not yours) is that I need to try taking vegan MSM/ Chondroiton. I also should increase my fat intake a bit to include more omego 3s and 6s. I think it's be best to talk to a physiologist first though, since it could be caused by somethng else unrelated to your diet.
    “I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning how to sail my ship.” ~ Alcott

  25. #75

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    Default Re: Arthritis? Calcium Deficiency?

    Hi ellaminowpea, I work in h&b and as far as we have been taught, chondroitin can only come from cows, whereas glucosamine in hydrochloride form is from vegetable source... MSM is just a pain killer so it will reduce the pain not solve the problem, chondroitin and glucosamine will do the trick though if you do have arthritis..
    I'm not sure, so many things to see the doctor about!! I think it could be something else as my joints get warm after standing at work all day, kinda like an inflammation, the pain is rare though. I also had some pains in my lower back the other day after lifting some stuff... I think I'm aging too soon, I'm only 20!!
    Thanks for the links Korn I will check them out, its very helpful and kind of you

  26. #76
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Arthritis? Calcium Deficiency?

    Sorry to hear about this. Good idea to see a doctor but why don't you also try resuming the flaxseed oil if it helped before? It's supposed to be good for various bits of us (e.g. brain) as well as the joints.

  27. #77
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    Default Re: Arthritis? Calcium Deficiency?

    I've had osteoarthritis for years, it's hereditary, my mother, grandmother and great grandmother all got it in their late thirties so it could be you have no calcium deficit - it's just something that would happen whatever your diet!
    Silent but deadly :p

  28. #78
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    Default Re: Arthritis? Calcium Deficiency?

    Quote hiddenfromview View Post
    MSM is just a pain killer so it will reduce the pain not solve the problem
    While it does reduce pain due to the fact that it is anti inflammatory, it does actually help the absorption of glucosamine, so taking them together is important.

    Ella, the kind I take (and really like) is a liquid form from ENP (Effective Natural Products). It's one of the few vegetable sources of glucosamine, plus has a few B vitamins, vit C, a few minerals, and an herbal blend to reduce swelling as well. It tastes great, and liquid is utilized by your body more effectively, and quickly.

    Hidden, I would not worry about arthritis at all, your joints are just creaky from use, and haven't been rebuilding their cushion. Make sure you are getting quality protein in your diet, supplement as I suggested above, get proper amounts of EFAs, and be sure not to overwork them. I've had the same trouble when I was dancing, but as long as I took care of my nutrition and took my glucosamine, the pain wouldn't come back.

  29. #79
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    Quote aubergine View Post
    Why do they always feel the need to put a warning at the end to satisfy the status quo?
    Not always... Below are some other links describing the same study, not indicating that eating vegan is more complicated than eating what's currently considered 'normal' food. It actually seems that it's finally become more and more common to accept that vegans don't have to worry about more nutrients than non-vegans. With all the info available on internet this is going to continue to improve...

    The article actually says "it can be difficult to get enough of some important nutrients on a vegan diet" - which is just as correct as it would be to claim that it can be difficult to get enough of some nutrients on all diets. Since we don't eat animals that has been 'fortified' with eg. iodine, we may need to take iodine if we only eat plants from iodine-deficient soil. The common level of knowledge about plant based food is much better than it was eg. only 10 years ago...



    Gluten-free vegan diet induces decreased LDL and oxidized LDL levels and raised atheroprotective natural antibodies against phosphorylcholine in patients with rheumatoid arthritis: a randomized study
    (March 2008)

  30. #80
    [LMNOP] ellaminnowpea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    Quote sandra View Post
    We all know too that ominvores are much more likely to be 'lacking in important nutrients' than vegans are.
    SO TRUE!!
    Geez, how did this myth get perpetuated for so long! it's 2008! People need to learn to research things a bit more (I mean we do have the internet and widely distributed science journals available). Especially when it concerns what they put in their bodies.
    “I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning how to sail my ship.” ~ Alcott

  31. #81
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    Default Re: Arthritis? Calcium Deficiency?

    Oh thanks SC! I'm working on getting some, I just hate ordering stuff online. But I'm going home this weekend, so I'll have a look at the health food store there. Lets hope its vegan source, lots of the combo variations have shellfish!!

    TBH, I think arthritis and joint pain are very different. I think random joint pain could just require some supplement for a short period of time, couple with increased omega 3 and 6 consumption. But inflammatory athritis might need something else. The inflammation and heat seem to lead toward arthritis isntead of just joint pain. Hope you can find something that works out!
    “I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning how to sail my ship.” ~ Alcott

  32. #82
    Zero
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    Quote ellaminnowpea View Post
    SO TRUE!!
    Geez, how did this myth get perpetuated for so long! it's 2008! People need to learn to research things a bit more (I mean we do have the internet and widely distributed science journals available). Especially when it concerns what they put in their bodies.
    Good points, unfortunately many health professionals (like some nutritionists) seem to keep telling people to eat a broad range of foods including, meat, dairy, fish etc to make sure they get everything they need, to me the approach looks at half the picture. Just because something contains a certain nutrient doesn't mean your body will actually absorb and assimilate it.

    I agree people should do their own research and find scientific information instead of relying on some of these people who are just stuck in their ways.

  33. #83

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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    I suppose wheather or not a vegan diet helps people suffering from rheumatoid arthritis really depends on a lot of additional, individual factors.

    I have been a veggie for over 30 years and a vegan for almost three and unfortunately I cannot say that in my case my diet helped my joint pain. I went on a walking holiday to the Cotswolds here in the UK (an area of very high gradients) and my poor auld knees just could not take the strain and my left knee in particular became very painful. I found that even sitting was painful and it was often better for me to stand. Additionally I could not walk any distance and the pleasure I took in rambling was denied me.

    I tried osteopathy with only limited success, but later decided to try out 'copper heels' which fit inside the heel of shoes. This was a great success and I am now completely pain free, walking 10 miles a day again and having great walks in the country (if only country village tea shops would offer something other than bread and jam to vegans - sometimes my luck is really in and I can partake of a jacket potato and baked beans).

    Even if a vegan diet cannot help joint pain, I'm sure it does a lot to prevent further deterioration as an omnivore diet produces acid in the body - just the thing for a painful attack of gout!

  34. #84
    [LMNOP] ellaminnowpea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan diet 'help' for arthritis

    Quote Zero View Post
    Good points,

    I agree...
    Thanks.
    “I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning how to sail my ship.” ~ Alcott

  35. #85

    Unhappy Rheumatoid Arthritis Quandary

    I don't know if this is necessarily the proper forum for this, so forgive me if I erred in categorizing this post.

    I'm 24 and have been a vegan for almost a year now. For the most part, I've found the transition both facile and rewarding. Surprisingly, I've also been in good health for the most part, especially given the abundance of warnings that accompanied my decision. I acquired the necessary supplements ahead of time, and have not been "sick" once since switching over. However, during February or March I started experiencing severe pain and swelling in a number of my joints and, by last month, it had intensified so drastically that I couldn't walk most mornings and was largely incapable of grasping or gripping items effectively. I have some days that are better than others and the symptoms seem to decrease the more I exercise, but - in general - the pain and uncertainty are negatively and severely impacting my life at least 4-5 days a week.

    I finally went to a doctor last week and, after a number of blood tests and x-rays, he diagnosed me with severe rheumatoid arthritis, noting that it appeared to be pretty aggressive and stressing that it was particularly bad in my fingers, wrists, knees, feet and shoulders. He indicated that, if I didn't begin an intensive course of treatment immediately, ALL of these areas would soon show signs of irreversible degeneration and, before long, deform drastically. He prescribed me methotrexate and prednisone, with the understanding that both would be medications I would have to take for the rest of my life.

    As of today I've yet to take a single dose of either medication. There are two reasons for this:

    1) I did a little research on these medications and BOTH come with a long, horribly imposing list of potential side effects. These range from horrible physical illnesses (numerous types of cancer, tumors of the lungs etc), to the psychological (depression, dementia) and aesthetic stuff that - while not AS important - are certainly unappealing to someone in their twenties (risk of drastic weight gain, drastic hair loss, water retention, etc.) Basically, the list of potential side effects makes stiffness, joint paint and - hell - drastic joint degeneration seem somewhat minor in comparison. While my doctor assures me that these things are "unlikely," I really don't like the idea of putting the building blocks for so many diseases into my body for the sake of treating something.

    2) The second reason, and the one that is more applicable to this forum, is the ethical element. I've done research and haven't been able to find any specific information, but I have my sincere doubts that taking these medications would be an appropriate action for a vegan or someone concerned with animal rights. I'm a bit sketchy on the precise details (and, like I said, online searches haven't helped) but these things HAVE to have animal components or, at the very least, be the product of some unconscionable animal testing..right?

    Basically, I'm at a crossroads. I'm very happy with my vegan lifestyle and feel I am doing the right thing for myself AND animals by refusing to consume animal products. I've been satisfied and (mostly) healthy and certainly feel veganism is a viable long-term lifestyle for me. On the other hand, this illness is something that HAS to be treated in some respect. I have already lost my ability to run, walk long distances and sleep comfortably and small everyday activities are becoming nearly impossible. I can't open cans, can't squeeze toothpaste, can't button shirts or pants, can't hold a pen and can't type with any fingers aside from my two pointers. All indications are that it will continue and will get worse and, as someone in their mid-twenties, don't want to think about what my life will be like in ten years if I don't do something to discourage the further degeneration of my joints. I don't want to take these particular medications for the reasons listed above, but I can't seen any other viable alternative. I have looked into holistics but haven't found any treatments that sound effective in stemming the progress of the disease or doctors in the area who would potentially prescribe such remedies

    What I want to know is whether any of you guys can give me any information regarding the ethical element of these medications or, possibly, any idea of a place where I could get information on possible holistic alternatives that MIGHT prove effective. Any personal accounts of similar struggles with these disease would, of course, also be of enormous benefit. Anyway, thanks for reading. Any help would be massively appreciated.

  36. #86
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rheumatoid Arthritis Quandary

    Hi Russell,

    I'm sorry to hear about your health problems. What are your own views on the ethical aspect of taking medications? The general vegan view is to avoid animal products and things that has been tested on animals as much as practical and possible, and not that you should avoid taking medication that possibly are non-vegan if there are no other alternatives that actually work.

    I've heard of several cases where non-vegan doctors suggest that non-vegan patients recommend that they should skip animal products from their diet to help deal with their arthritis, so at least you have chosen a diet that happens to be known for having a good effect on arthritis.

    You wrote that you acquired the necessary supplements ahead of time... since we have many readers, let me just mention that unless you have a deficiency or are very low in certain nutrients when you go vegan, there's no general rule about starting a vegan diet with supplements - except for the possible vitamin D if you aren't getting enough sunlight exposure. You live in PA so the potenial problem with living too far north to get the vitamin D benefits from sunligh shouldn't be a problem.

    I'm a little curious about why you are surprised about not having been sick once/been in good health for the most part since your transition to the vegan diet... Remember, there are many people who don't necessarily agree in the vegan views on animals, but who still eat vegan for health reasons alone...

    I'm sure you'll get feedback from forum members with knowledge about your condition - meanwhile, you'll find a few threads about arthritis if you search for threads with arthritis in the thread title. Good luck...

  37. #87

    Default Re: Rheumatoid Arthritis Quandary

    Thanks a lot for your reply.

    After retroactively researching vegan health, I became aware of the numerous health benefits (many of which I have seen in my own experiences) but I suppose my surprise stems from the fact that I -like many others- have been indoctrinated by ideas about vegetarian diets being unhealthy and lacking in essential nutrients etc. I found out later that most of these notions were false, but - when I initially switched over - I just accepted them as fact and was pleasantly surprised at how good I felt.

  38. #88
    [LMNOP] ellaminnowpea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Link: For Rheumatoid Arthritis, Choose a Gluten-Free Vegan Diet

    Hmmm that's interesting. I've been thinking about wheat/ gluten and joint pain a lot recently. It always seemed linked to me. Nice to see that there's more info out there. Wonder if they'll do any studies on younger people with RA, like in their twenties and thirties, rather than fifties.
    “I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning how to sail my ship.” ~ Alcott

  39. #89

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    Default Re: Arthritis? Calcium Deficiency?

    Hey guys, just to update any of you if interested at all.... I went to the doctor today, and to my complete surprise the cause is MUSCLE WASTAGE! I asked him if I need more protein and he said it's nothing to do with that... he said I simply need to do an exercise he gave me 3 times a day for the next month... Problem solved!

  40. #90
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    Default Re: Arthritis? Calcium Deficiency?

    Excellent news

    I am seeing a physio lady on Saturday because i can hardly bend my leg. My knee is really painful at the moment. Hope she can recommend something cus i am bored of it now

  41. #91
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    Default Re: Arthritis? Calcium Deficiency?

    Iv noticed too that im getting joint pains more than ever right now. I was considering seeing my gp about it.

    Iv been feeling very weak recently and sometimes i feel as if my legs just dont want to move. My shoulders and elbows also feel achy sometimes. I dont exactly get pains in my hips but i do find it hard to lift my leg high, they feel so heavy. Climbing is difficult, i always loved the outdoors and done lots of hiking, just lately though im really struggling and starting to almost panic about it when i see a steep hill or steps to climb. I really hate feeling like this.

    Im also falling over a lot, tripped and hurt my foot last week, tripped and smashed my face this week resulting in 2 nights in hospital and a massive scar on my face.

    Im feeling so fed up with myself.

  42. #92
    Karma Junkie vava's Avatar
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    Default Re: Arthritis? Calcium Deficiency?

    Quote WildWitch View Post
    Iv noticed too that im getting joint pains more than ever right now. I was considering seeing my gp about it.

    Iv been feeling very weak recently and sometimes i feel as if my legs just dont want to move. My shoulders and elbows also feel achy sometimes. I dont exactly get pains in my hips but i do find it hard to lift my leg high, they feel so heavy. Climbing is difficult, i always loved the outdoors and done lots of hiking, just lately though im really struggling and starting to almost panic about it when i see a steep hill or steps to climb. I really hate feeling like this.

    Im also falling over a lot, tripped and hurt my foot last week, tripped and smashed my face this week resulting in 2 nights in hospital and a massive scar on my face.

    Im feeling so fed up with myself.
    have you seen your doc WW? If not you need to - now!
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  43. #93
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    Default Re: Arthritis? Calcium Deficiency?

    Quote vava View Post
    have you seen your doc WW? If not you need to - now!
    Will make an appointment when iv got these stitches out, due out tomorrow.

  44. #94
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    Default "Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-vegetarians"

    http://insciences.org/article.php?article_id=4342

    This may work even for non-nuns

  45. #95
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    Default Re: "Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-vegetarians"

    You know you feel morally superior about your veganism when.... You read this title and go, "Oh no, bad vegan info in the media again!" because you know that vegans have good bone density and non-vegetarians aren't healthy enough.
    Peace, love, and happiness.

  46. #96
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-vegetarians"

    This may work even for non-nuns



    Here are two more links related to bone density:

    http://www.bornfreeusa.org/articles.php?more=1&p=379
    Moreover, while dairy products do contain calcium, there is no evidence that milk consumption prevents osteoporosis, as the milk industry often implies. In fact, documented evidence now suggests that the opposite may be true.

    A 1998 study published by the Journal of the American Dietetic Association revealed that vegan women did not have lower bone density than vegetarian women despite the fact that the vegan women consumed no dairy products and had lower intakes of calcium. The reason for this may be that reducing calcium loss is more important than levels of calcium intake. Diets high in protein, particularly animal protein, appear to increase the loss of calcium through the urine and lead to a weakening of the bones.

    Another recent study (in which two API staff participated) further supports the benefits of a dairy-free diet. Researchers at the University of California at Davis, exploring the relationship between osteoporosis and diet, compared women who eat both animal and plant foods to women who only eat plant-derived foods. Their results indicated that rates of bone resorption — in which calcium is leached from bones into the bloodstream — were the same in the omnivore women and the vegan women. Bone formation rates, however, were significantly lower in the women who ate animal products, indicating a possible association between omnivorous diets and lower bone densities.
    http://www.vegsource.com/klaper/qa05.htm
    Another dairy ad reports that there are 300 mg of bioavailable calcium in a cup of
    milk and that it would take 2 and half cups of broccoli to get the same content.
    The TRUTH is that a cup of milk only has 96 mg of bioavailable calcium and that
    can be obtained from only one and a half cups of broccoli.

    The Dairy Bureau has posted information reporting that without milk products it is
    difficult to achieve calcium intakes above 300 mg per day. The TRUTH is that
    many studies that have analyzed the diets of vegans who don’t ingest any milk or
    milk products have more then adequate calcium and average 627 mg of calcium
    per day.

    The Dairy Council has offered ads which state that dairy products will build
    stronger bones in the elderly. The American Journal of Epidemiology found that
    elderly people with the highest dairy product consumption actually had double the
    risk for hip fracture.

    One of my personal favorites is a study funded by the Dairy Council that had post-
    menopausal women drink 3 additional 8 ounces glasses of skim milk per day
    compared to a control group that did not. The results were disastrous and the
    dairy folks were much dismayed to find that their pet project made it into public
    print as The Journal of Clinical Nutrition reported the findings. It seems that the
    women drinking the extra 3 glasses of milk where in “negative calcium balance,”
    meaning that they were losing calcium faster than they were taking it in. Not so
    with the control group.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  47. #97
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    Default Re: "Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-vegetarians"

    The reason for this may be that reducing calcium loss is more important than levels of calcium intake.
    A very important statement which can be applied to other nutritional issues.

    It's not all about intake: it's also about balance and whether your body is able to metabolise what you give it. You don't actually need much calcium daily - but you do need your body to hang on to the calcium it's got and to take in what dietary calcium you give it. Decreasing your blood's acidity helps, as a for instance.

    This whole "you need milk/cheese/etc" for your calcium is pure industry spin and we need more public dissemination of the likes of the one above printed in the Journal of Clinical Nutrition. If such poor findings for milk and its products were to make it to the mainstream press, sadly dairy advertisers would protest and threaten to remove their custom; such is the distorted power of lies and money.

  48. #98

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    Default Study showing vegans have weaker bones?

    Last edited by Korn; Aug 22nd, 2009 at 11:35 AM. Reason: This was the first post in a similar thread

  49. #99
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    Default Re: Study showuing Vegans have weaker bones?

    Interesting.
    I thought that the major factor in bone density in adults was load bearing exercise though?

    All that study indicates to me is that the vegans wern't active enough!
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

  50. #100
    Prawnil
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    Default Re: Study showuing Vegans have weaker bones?

    The interesting part is that the BMD difference in Caucasian vegetarians was reported as "lower than omnivores by between 8% and 10%", but that the difference in Asian vegetarians "was between 2% and 3%."
    This was a meta-analysis of preexisting papers, so didn't involve any new data, and the abstract ends:
    "the effect is unlikely to be of clinical significance."

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