'working' animals

[cedarblue]

this post by mr flibble in another thread prompted me to think...

"It's debateable as to whether truffles are vegan or not though, as their harvesting involves pigs/dogs."

..so i thought, is keeping animals to do jobs like truffle hunt vegan, not vegan, ..... even if the product ie. truffle is (debatably) vegan.

....and what about drug/explosive sniffer dogs, guide dogs etc.


any thoughts???

[harpy]

Technically I suppose these things are not vegan as it's humans using animals. In practice I don't feel strongly about guide dogs, drug sniffer dogs and similar if they are treated well, because dogs don't seem to mind that sort of thing. Given that the dogs are already domesticated (even though we may wish they weren't) they often seem to like to have something to apply their intelligence to.

Explosive-detecting dogs I don't approve of because of the danger involved - people have invented explosives so they should deal with them themselves. (I think I have read about computer-based "neural noses" being developed to detect explosives?)

In the case of truffle dogs (or pigs) it seems a bit mean to take the truffles away from them, but presumably they must be rewarded for their finds otherwise they wouldn't bother to keep doing it.

[pie]

i sometimes feel a bit sorry for guide dogs, being on a lead all the time, but i agree with harpy and i think most dogs 'enjoy' having a job, especially intellient dogs like border collies and springer spaniels.

[Mr Flibble]

I know nothing about treatment of animals in truffle production. Assuming they're rewarded in some way is very possibly wishful thinking. I'd assume (and could be wrong) that living conditions / life expectancies are more that of of commercially bred/used dogs, such as hunting hounds.

If anyone does know I'd be interested in hearing about it. Personally I avoid truffles (the fungal kind, not the delicious chocolate ones).

[harpy]

Hmm, none has come my way for many years so the question of avoiding them hasn't arisen. It's obvious we move in widely different circles Though actually now you mention it I think there may be a truffle dish on the menu at Zilli Green?

I would have thought they would have to reward them with something, otherwise they would soon lose interest in doing it. This says "a piece of bread" which seems a rather meagre reward. http://www.barbettarestaurant.com/ht...le_hounds.html

[Mr Flibble]

Zilli does, yes, but then they were also serving parmasan cheese.

I'm led to believe that most truffle oil that is sold is synthetic and doesn't contain the real thing.

[harpy]

On the website they claim they have vegetarian Parmesan, which doesn't exist as far as I know

When I have had truffles in the past I haven't really been able to taste anything special, but perhaps they were poor quality ones. I really like dried porcini though - please don't tell me someone gets exploited to find those!

[Mr Flibble]

it depends whether you're eating them off my plate or not

[DavidT]

'Working animals" - something I want to discuss. How people feel about using animals in agriculture, say horses or oxen for ploughing or for utility such as a donkey and cart or pony and trap? Or even dog carts?

What's a fair vegan response to "using" these animals? I'm not talking about entertainment as in circuses or trained dolphins, more about actually humans surviving when fossil fuels become scarce.

[harpy]

Philosophically I would think using animals to plough counted as "exploitation" and therefore was unacceptable from a vegan point of view, but in practice I imagine some vegans would find it acceptable provided the animals were treated well (and especially if the alternative was to starve).

However it seems quite likely that alternatives to fossil fuels will emerge before we get to that point. I don't see why you couldn't have an electric plough, for example?

[DavidT]

I too believe that, if animals are treated well and the work is suited to them (many animals love being involved in stuff, as you know) and all the rest of the consideration a vegan understands, then humans can be justified in working alongside them, to the benefit of both. It's sometimes worth remembering that animals can 'exploit' humans too!

I cycle everywhere; when I'm too old to cycle, I'd like to have a horse or donkey and cart to get me around. What's the alternative, given my belief about transport fuels?

As for your second point, harpy, I'll try to be brief but you know it's a huge subject.

Firstly, most of the alternatives are less energy-dense than FF, so that represents a downward slope in energy availability.

Secondly, you need energy to produce energy, whether that is in feeding coal to a power plant to produce electricity (and the methods currently used are extremely inefficient, something in the order of 38%) or using oil to make concrete and steel to erect and maintain wind turbines. The Saudis use about a barrel of oil to produce 100 barrels - very cheap energy but declining. The Canadians take around a barrel of oil to produce 3 - and some would say less than that.

Thirdly, the population is increasing. And that means more and more people want the energy usage of us rich people. The demand is practically exponential.

Energy in all forms is going to get scarcer and more expensive.

[harpy]

I agree energy is going to get scarcer but I would think food production would receive a high priority for what is available - however assuming most people still won't be vegan by then the use of oxen etc may be seen as a preferable alternative.

Work is going on to develop vehicles driven by solar power. That might be a good alternative to animal-drawn ploughs, though perhaps not a reliable one in this part of the world.

Fortunately for me I don't have to deal with the animal vs fuel dilemma personally as in London you can go everywhere on foot or by public transport - or are you anti public transport?

[DavidT]

Thanks for your reply, harpy.

High priority of course but possibly not for reasons you immediately think. It would be mainly to support the military. This is simply history. A nation's defence and/or attack forces (plus their ruling class) always get fuel and food before anyone else.

Regarding solar powered vehicles, allow me to be highly sceptical! There are some slow tourist ferries (Germany, IIRC) run by solar power. And electric vehicles had a better range 100 years ago than the modern ones...no electric sun roofs or aircon or whatever, so there is hope there.

But capturing sunlight and wind and turning it into usable energy takes a lot of energy, materials infrastructure, not to mention the problems with NIMBYs (the current plans to put wind turbines to one side of the M4 - the objectors actually live on the other side of the motorway! Motorways = OK. Power to run the vehicles = not OK) and don't forget the global population wanting the same things.

As for public transport, no, not anti. I'm anti-privatisation of those services though. Boris Johnson was two steps backwards. I'm anti- many forms of personal transport. Anti-air travel in particular.

[Festered]

What do you reckon to this?They're doing it in a town near me at the moment.
http://easiatravel.suite101.com/arti...arra_rufa_fish

[harpy]

A friend of my mother's apparently had that done and went back for more Questions of fish-sploitation aside, how do you know they know when to stop, eh?

[DavidT]

I'm naturally sceptical about it. Surely there are easier ways of dealing with psoriasis? Not any kind of expert. Does anyone know?

[harpy]

Not an expert either, but psoriasis doesn't actually seem that easy to treat. There's an article about what sounds like a similar fish treatment here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...lbeing.health2