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Thread: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

  1. #1
    leedsveg
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    Default How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    [Hi all. I posted a version of the following last night in another thread but the thread has now been closed. I'd be interested to know what anyone thinks of my ideas. To anybody reading it again + bored again, SORRY!]

    I think there is a danger with veganism in thinking that it's all about a 'big book of rules' to learn, to follow and most disastrously of all, to hit dissenters with, who don't 'toe the party line'. But what if there isn't really a 'party line'? What if Donald Watson and the Vegan Society (UK) have given us very little to go on, so we have to think for ourselves (Life of Brian anyone?) and create our own veganism?

    I like it when Joanne Stepaniak says to vegans in her book Being Vegan "always try to do the least harm and the most good". Also "Each moment of our lives we have the option to do right, do wrong, or do nothing. Attempting to do right as often as we can is all that being vegan requires."

    I believe that what Joanne Stepaniak says is correct and it makes more sense to me, than thinking we can have x number of 'vegan rules' to cover all the possible situations, that life can throw at us. A practical effect of this is that there will be some situations, where you do what you perceive to be 'the right thing' and I do what I perceive to be 'the right thing' and although our actions may be totally different, they can both be considered vegan. We may discuss our different actions and their relative merits but at the end of the day, we should respect each other and not just be interested in imposing our own viewpoint on the other person.

    leedsveg

  2. #2

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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Oh the devil in me just wants to bring the topic right back to where it derailed last time!

  3. #3
    Tottering Bunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    I totally agree. I always try to do my best. I am sure there are things I do that others would be horrified at, but I cannot beat myself up too much about things!
    There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary and those that don't.

  4. #4
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Hi Bunny

    You make perfect sense to me.

    lv



    Ruby Rose

    Don't you dare! D'ya know how many gallons of molasses I've metaphorically waded through to get this far?!

    lv

  5. #5
    kookooforkarma's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Wow. What a wonderful perspective you have exposed me too. I feel happier already!

  6. #6
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Hi kkfk

    The theory of it all is so simple. But putting it into practice...!

    It's a bit like "Love thy Neighbour". You know what you should do, but it's not easy to do, if your "neighbour" is a daft, crotchety bugger like me.

    Still, it cuts down the 'vegan rules to remember' to about 1 (from around 41 trillion). Helps me because I've got a rotten memory.

    leedsveg

  7. #7
    75% Chickpea Cumin's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    I think there are no hard-and-fast rules, we all have our own personal standards that we are comfortable with. The only thing that matters to me is to _try_. All good definitions of vegan that I have seen use this word.
    If someone is trying wherever practical to be vegan, then they are vegan.

    For one person this may be never eating something that doesn't have animal products visible in it (e.g. any veggie pizza without cheese). For another it may mean eating no food they haven't prepared themselves because they can't trust other to verify the vegan provenance of things like sugar and spices.
    How good it is to be well-fed, healthy, and kind all at the same time. Henry J. Heimlich

  8. #8
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    I think we can only do the best we can in any given circumstance. We all have differing ideas I'm sure of what is and isn't acceptable in regards to veganism. For example, I personally would never intentionally eat any non-vegan food product. I just couldn't do it, but I would imagine there are others who do feel this is sometimes acceptable as long as they revert back to their vegan diet.
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  9. #9
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote Bunny View Post
    I always try to do my best. I am sure there are things I do that others would be horrified at, but I cannot beat myself up too much about things!
    Same here. There are some grey areas in veganism and the absolute "right" thing to do isn't always obvious so I do what I feel most comfortable with.

  10. #10
    helen105281
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote leedsveg;640871[I
    "[/I]always try to do the least harm and the most good". Also "Each moment of our lives we have the option to do right, do wrong, or do nothing. Attempting to do right as often as we can is all that being vegan requires."
    I think this sums it up perfectly.

  11. #11

    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote sandra View Post
    I think we can only do the best we can in any given circumstance. We all have differing ideas I'm sure of what is and isn't acceptable in regards to veganism. For example, I personally would never intentionally eat any non-vegan food product. I just couldn't do it.
    This makes total sense to me.

    I also have found going vegan quite easy... and as such, I tend to think of intentionally eating non-vegan food as explicitly not vegan. We all make mistakes, but being vegan seems so easy, in every country, regardless of income, that I have ever lived or traveled in.

    I think that making mistakes is quite different than intentionally eating animals. As such, I think that the word vegan should be reserved for those that avoid eating animals and animal products to the fullest extent they are able, while folks who eat vegan most of the time except for when they consume intentional animal products or animals are not vegan, but rather vegan sympathizers. Which is still a good place to be...

    Watering down what veganism means to appeal to the masses has a stink of welfarism to me. My veganism is NOT an accommodation to dominant culture. It is a rejection of dominant animal consumption culture, and as such, I am not keen on making it easier. I am keen on making veganism mean something.

    SRSLY?

    Plus, how easy is it to just avoid eating animal products. No one makes a big deal about being abstaining from killing humans. Well, I abstain from killing humans except for those few times a week I do intentionally. But I'm not a human killer! I really follow the non-killing thing the rest of the time. PLZ let me into your linguistic club so that I do not have to feel responsibility for my intentional, but irregular killing of people once every few weeks. But I'm not a killer if I do not do it all the time.
    context is everything

  12. #12
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Hi xrodolfox
    I just spent two and a half hours composing a response to your posting but when I tried to 'submit reply', I lost it all and there was no copy. Never mind.

    Before I redo it all tomorrow later today, could you clarify a couple of things I was unsure about.

    Watering down what veganism means to appeal to the masses has a stink of welfarism to me. My veganism is NOT an accommodation to dominant culture. It is a rejection of dominant animal consumption culture, and as such, I am not keen on making it easier. I am keen on making veganism mean something.
    Does this refer to something I posted?

    Plus, how easy is it to just avoid eating animal products. No one makes a big deal about being abstaining from killing humans. Well, I abstain from killing humans except for those few times a week I do intentionally. But I'm not a human killer! I really follow the non-killing thing the rest of the time. PLZ let me into your linguistic club so that I do not have to feel responsibility for my intentional, but irregular killing of people once every few weeks. But I'm not a killer if I do not do it all the time.
    Not sure at all what you mean, especially the 'killing humans' and 'your linguistic club' references? Sorry if I'm a bit dense but please elaborate.

    Good wishes

    leedsveg

  13. #13
    whalespace's Avatar
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    Default On the subject of "vegan decisions"

    Don't abuse or kill animals when you can remove the need to do so [obviate it].

    There are variously abstract scopes of consideration.

    The exchange of minor monetary tokens is a simple meditation, which is easily accessible, and recognisable to most individuals whom might become involved with the government of local practices, or the consideration of disputes between significant others.

    Simplicity is good. As far as this kind of goodness is concerned, results are also good.
    Problematic is waking someone whom pretends to sleep.

  14. #14
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: On the subject of "vegan decisions"

    Quote whalespace View Post
    Don't abuse or kill animals when you can remove the need to do so [obviate it].

    There are variously abstract scopes of consideration.

    The exchange of minor monetary tokens is a simple meditation, which is easily accessible, and recognisable to most individuals whom might become involved with the government of local practices, or the consideration of disputes between significant others.

    Simplicity is good. As far as this kind of goodness is concerned, results are also good.
    Whalespace

    I understand your first sentence and "Simplicity is good", but nothing else from your posting?!

    leedsveg

  15. #15
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote BlackCats View Post
    Same here. There are some grey areas in veganism and the absolute "right" thing to do isn't always obvious so I do what I feel most comfortable with.
    Hi BC

    Per Joanne Stepaniak, the "right" thing to do, that is the 'vegan action', would be the action "that creates the most good" and I presume, that would be the action that you would feel most comfortable with.

    I can think of one occasion in my life when drinking a glass of cow's milk, would have been a 'vegan action' [August 1970, Dead Sea shore, leedsveg suffering from severe dehydration].

    leedsveg

  16. #16
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Per Joanne Stepaniak, the "right" thing to do, that is the 'vegan action', would be the action "that creates the most good" and I presume, that would be the action that you would feel most comfortable with.
    I think utilitarianism isn't always the best plan of action personally. It's a complex world.

  17. #17
    X Zanahorias!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    I don't know that doing what you feel most comfortable with is necessarily the best course of action. Rather, in some instances you have to be vocal or take a stand that might not be comfortable but is certainly in the interest of "the most good."
    X

  18. #18
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote BlackCats View Post
    I think utilitarianism isn't always the best plan of action personally. It's a complex world.
    You're right, BC and I paraphrased Joanne Stepaniak badly. Maybe instead of "the action that creates the most good, I should have said something like "the action with the most compassion". Or is that still utilitarianism? Very complex ethics for a complex world. All I know is that it has to be better than blindly trying to follow 'The Vegan Rulebook'.


    Quote Zanahorias! View Post
    I don't know that doing what you feel most comfortable with is necessarily the best course of action. Rather, in some instances you have to be vocal or take a stand that might not be comfortable but is certainly in the interest of "the most good."
    By 'comfortable with', I meant "that your conscience would feel most comfortable with". Sorry I was not clearer.

    leedsveg

  19. #19
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    All I know is that it has to be better than blindly trying to follow 'The Vegan Rulebook'.
    I agree with you.

    I still follow my own conscience rather than copy what other vegans think. There are certain issues like donating blood that I felt was not in the interest of animals to donate my blood to meat-eaters but being a blood donor feels like the "right" thing to do for me personally.

  20. #20
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote BlackCats View Post
    I agree with you.

    I still follow my own conscience rather than copy what other vegans think. There are certain issues like donating blood that I felt was not in the interest of animals to donate my blood to meat-eaters but being a blood donor feels like the "right" thing to do for me personally.
    Hi BC

    Don't know if you've seen postings in the past from people who refused to give blood because it might go to an omni child, and also would not stop a runaway buggy because the baby in it might grow older and become an omni. Wow! (I think I'm on my 52nd pint now and have zero interest in who the recipients are.)

    lv

  21. #21
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote Zanahorias! View Post
    I don't know that doing what you feel most comfortable with is necessarily the best course of action. Rather, in some instances you have to be vocal or take a stand that might not be comfortable but is certainly in the interest of "the most good."
    I suppose it might not be the best course of action but I do follow my heart in most situations.

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Hi BC
    Don't know if you've seen postings in the past from people who refused to give blood because it might go to an omni child, and also would not stop a runaway buggy because the baby in it might grow older and become an omni. Wow! (I think I'm on my 52nd pint now and have zero interest in who the recipients are.)
    lv
    I can see their point to a certain extent but I am sure I wouldn't make the same choices. Well done on the donation.:smile:

  22. #22
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote BlackCats View Post
    I can see their point to a certain extent but I am sure I wouldn't make the same choices. Well done on the donation.:smile:
    I like the idea of trying to save lives (and they did give me a rather nice pen for the 50th donation!)

    I do seem to remember about 8 years ago on another forum, a vegan who was going to have a serious operation, was asking vegans if they would donate blood to her before the operation because, for whatever reason, she didn't want to have any non-vegan blood pumped inside her. I decided not to donate, just as I wouldn't have done to someone asking for blood 'only from a white/black donor'.

    leedsveg

  23. #23
    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    i don't see the connection?
    Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty.

  24. #24
    Prawnil
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    Post Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    3 ... 2 ... 1 ... splurge:
    Vegan is a proprietary term, coined by English committee in recent history as a political breakaway. As such, it represents precisely nothing more than the Party Line that seems so repulsive. I mean by this that Veganism is the list of rules, operating as the turn-stile to those willing to tick-box assign themselves to the 'Us' opposed to 'them,' in a political, social move representing an attitude to the status of animal others relative to human lives.

    From that perspective veganism is in ways like a marker very simply comparable to Halal and Kosher, one thin-end-of-the wedge (among many, possibly an unlimited number) practical application, within consumption, of far grander ideologies. What's weird about 'vegan' in contrast is that it then marks the 'philosphy' itself as well as the 'adherence' of the product. I 'X' philosophy because I've come to consider veganism as far more akin to a politcal party (hence I consider that it really is, or really requires the 'party line!') than a philosphy - I can see this point as extremely easy to misinterpret - what I mean by kind of demoting veganism is that it is the business end of an actual ethical attitude that being 'vegan' does not envelope; which does not have the boundaries that veganism, to work as a badge-political progressive movement of any kind needs in order to define itself (in negative terms: 'we Don't do...') and its project.

    Vegan/ism does work socially. Without meaning to affect people socially, there is no purpose in assigning yourself to veganism. Your ethics doesn't need naming. This unnamed can't be denied you if you break the limit of veganism.

    The party line style is the scaffold to a coherent community - you are a legitimate member (to the Other-vegans -the imaginary community built up by interacting with wider veganISM - that appeals to your conscience - the true vegan police) when you accept the minimal conditions. A problem is treating the Minimal Conditions as actual 100% expressions of your ethical attitude. They preserve some kind of continuity in the community to bind its members in something singular and some are only analogies to the main principles of veganism that are most obvious in confinement and slaughter of mammals, birds and fish. This is the point that people are most likely to disagree (with me): There's a fault-line in the region of pet ownership. The fault-line is a relative gaping chasm in The Land of Silk and Honey. The word 'Animal' appears and then, without definite limits (or consideration of where compassion ENDS) the general rules for treatment of 'Animal X' are applied for the sake of consistency. I mean by this that I avoid systems using insects as a resource because I am vegan, and secondarily, am vegan because I avoid systems using etc...
    That since I have no hard desire for honey or silk or chocolate coated locusts I refuse them to be vegan - That this was not part of my moral make-up in advance of choosing veganism.
    My point is certainly not that this is true for all vegans.

    All this does have a point, some benefits:

    -That all of the variation beyond the party line is entirely personal, but doesn't need to be seen as veganism itself, but its precursor on a person-by-person basis.

    -It's even more clear that entry to veganism can be from any angle at all providing that it your attitude towards non-human 'Others' is not one of means to human ends. Thus spake The Vegan Society.
    (If this pre-vegan philosophy is treated AS veganism, its limits as a founded group necessarily allows only a narrower spectrum of attitudes to become legitimately Vegan.)

    -Veganism may be less of a defining feature to a person.

    -Probably most importantly, if it's basically devalued; 'veganism' surrendered to the founding party-like group, diversity of 'members' is less antagonistic and definition may move to discussion.
    If the vegan limits are non-negotiable matters of history, there is less vying to out-define other vegans.
    This does start to make less sense as I type though - a problem is that where interactions with animals were not 'defined,' the harder-core of veganism is applied to them by analogy - Don't keep, don't kill - In the case of pets, a person may be Keeping to reduce Killing. But may be Killing in order to Keep in order NOT TO Kill!! (I'm talking pets and their meat food). Perhaps these should be treated as beyond the party line and so not to be associated with Veganism (as in, to be discussed in terms of personal ethics but NOT Veganism).

    [-Maybe more importantly still, it means that appearances, as in realistic faux leather etc., are beyond the reach of the 'party' and so I have abondoned treating my opinion on this as relating to veganism in any way. Such issues become matters of personal preference and ethical difference but not vegan difference, where they always belonged.]

    If veganism is treated as little more than the badges representing it, there's little reason to be aggrieved by your internalised vegan police denying you veganism on occasions that you've passed the limits of vegan 'Law.' The attitude bringing you to the vegan rallying point is intact - in a silly way (but to be honest, in not an entirely non-serious way!) it would have been simpler if The Vegan Society had been founded with a an exclusion period 'built-in' for such moments (drank milk?? Two week excommunication for you!). Treating it as a community-society would discourage people over-identifying with the movement in a troublesome way.

    It's quite wonderful what standing under a flag flying a single word will do.


    =============
    This was meant as a response to the question, but to be honest I've lost the answer in there myself, so you'll just have to take my word for it. Essentially, my answer was that I don't make vegan decisions. No part of the above is a corner I would fight, nor a True veganism above others', but only a way of relating to veganism that feels freer, despite all the talk of the value of the 'pary line.' I have re-externalised veganism into something I choose to be subjected to in order to form part of a mass with a purpose. Where before I had confounded the ethical attitude with the social project - which makes the vegan definition dangerously personal, and gives the illusion of a (in the words of someone, I, uhh...forget who) 'Vegan Truth.'

    In the absence of a collapse function for posts, I'd suggest people just put me on Ignore so the thread'll flow better on the page

  25. #25
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Hi Prawnil

    I was just about to go to bed when I saw your posting. At this time of night and after a long day, I don't understand it fully but it did seem very interesting!

    I'll print it out and go through it all tomorrow with a pencil and then reply to you (if you're still around and the 'pet owners' haven't 'got you' first).

    leedsveg

  26. #26
    whalespace's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote Prawnil View Post
    3 ... 2 ... 1 ... splurge:

    ...
    In the absence of a collapse function for posts, I'd suggest people just put me on Ignore so the thread'll flow better on the page
    If I can't understand you, I might just skip it anyway Prawnil .
    I nearly attempted to express what you have outlined above, before defaulting to a 'need_to_know'/discrete_object definition . I'd echo my interpretation of your contextualisation, but I'll listen for other shapes.

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Whalespace

    I understand your first sentence and "Simplicity is good", but nothing else from your posting?!

    leedsveg
    As I reckon you do comprehend the words, I won't pretend that I was hiding anything.
    Problematic is waking someone whom pretends to sleep.

  27. #27
    whalespace's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote RubyDuby View Post
    i don't see the connection?
    I don't see an explicit connection there either RubyDuby.

    I can think of reasons why I might avoid developing a regular relationship with a 'vegan' blood recipient; though my first response would be of willingness.

    I guess that a policy of donating to a common resource is less problematic generally.
    Problematic is waking someone whom pretends to sleep.

  28. #28
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote RubyDuby View Post
    i don't see the connection?
    Ethical considerations when donating blood.

    lv

  29. #29
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    ^ I try to encourage people I know to donate blood and they say they are too afraid of needles but I wonder if they would refuse blood if they needed it.

  30. #30
    whalespace's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Giving blood is a good way to get an anaemia test aswell.
    Problematic is waking someone whom pretends to sleep.

  31. #31
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote whalespace View Post

    As I reckon you do comprehend the words...
    And I know I don't....


    (We could carry on in this vein for quite a while as if in a pantomime:

    whalespace: "Oh yes you do!"

    leedsveg: "Oh no I don't!"

    whalespace: "Oh yes you do!" etc ad infinitum)



    (perhaps I could ask the people at Plain English Campaign to do me a translation?)

    leedsveg :smile:

  32. #32

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    Default Re: On the subject of "vegan decisions"

    Hi Walespace,

    Well, you know that normally I really love the poetic and thought-provoking way you express yourself - and I'm quite good with language, but I have to confess that you lost me too. Can I say what I thought I understood and you could maybe correct me if I haven't got it right?

    Quote whalespace View Post
    Don't abuse or kill animals when you can remove the need to do so [obviate it].
    The practical baseline: in any situation, if there is an option which does not involve the use of animals or animal products, this is the option ot choose.

    Quote whalespace View Post
    There are variously abstract scopes of consideration.
    Moving from the practical baseline to the ethics beyond it: there are different ways of interpreting the abstract concept of Veganism, none of which is "the right one".

    Quote whalespace View Post
    The exchange of minor monetary tokens is a simple meditation, which is easily accessible, and recognisable to most individuals whom might become involved with the government of local practices, or the consideration of disputes between significant others.
    Hmm. "Exchange of minor monetary tokens" = buying things cheaply? Buying things "is a simple meditation" = is a way of making yourself feel good? Buying things to make you feel good about yourself "is easily accessible and recognisable to most individuals" = is a way to demonstrate your veganism to others? So this part of the sentence... making choices to buy vegan products raises awareness of veganism to others?

    ..."who[m] might become involved with the government of local practices, or the consideration of disputes between significant others" = who are in positions of social and legal authority?

    Quote whalespace View Post
    Simplicity is good. As far as this kind of goodness is concerned, results are also good.
    Keeping it simple means everyone gets the best out of the situation?

  33. #33
    Prawnil
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    I'll print it out and go through it all tomorrow with a pencil and then reply to you (if you're still around and the 'pet owners' haven't 'got you' first).
    A massive red marker would be easier. I certainly tripped over myself a lot. The point I was considering, and it's only a recent point of view, is that it might be useful (or, rather, it has been useful to me, because it's only a matter of attitude and doesn't involve doing anything) to pare back my idea of veganism to its minimum. To treat it as nothing more than the meeting point, rather than actual as an ethical attitude itself. But, as a meeting point with a concrete history that doesn't really allow much reinterpretation. In that way, any area of human interaction with other species that was not considered as a founding part of the vegan society's 'party line' should be treated as outside veganism. As in, up for discussion but not for inclusion in a definition of vegan.

    Like a meeting house for a group who want to represent a desire for a change to the wider community, rather than precisely what philosophy each of its members considers as their reason for being there. For it to work properly, to represent something with a single(ish) direction, the members have to voluntarily follow the most basic rules that allow them to be there.
    The line they have to toe for the sake of keeping the meaning of the group's project is what keeps them together, but that 'package' of the definition feeds-back on the philosophy that, rather than being veganism, is behind their choosing to be there. My example is insects. I considered honey something to be avoided in order to be vegan, but this avoiding honey makes sense, cicularly, once it's accepted as a minimum requirement of veganism. So, I don't mindlessly avoid honey that I would otherwise eat just to still count as a vegan - I think avoiding it is ethically sensible in keeping the rejection of exploitation of anything called 'animal' consistent (as in, it is moral(!), but I took it from veganism, not earlier personal conviction). To me, philosophically, what living thing is worthy of consideration is not settled (so in a way, honey and silk are not settled for me in a personal way) but inside veganism, they're perfectly settled! (in a way, honey and silk are settled in terms of being a vegan).
    That doesn't really make instant sense. But that's an advantage - that each vegan is only bound to the vegan group by the minimum, explicit limits that the society was founded on. All subjects that weren't included, historically, don't need to battle to be vegan. So, pets etc are not debatable as either vegan or not vegan.

    This isn't great, though. First, the difference between this and most views of veganism, from vegans, isn't very much, if there is any difference. (All I can say is that it's made me feel better to treat veganism as at least partly pre-defined, and more something external than I treated it before. That way I don't pretend to my attitudes towards different animals being incorporated into veganism in place of anyone else's.)
    Secondly, but worst, is that looking back on the founding principles of veganism, there isn't really that much to find that can be used as the solid, basic, external minimum 'party line' to follow.
    Nothing's settled, obviously. And that was meant to be a really short version.

  34. #34

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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    I like it, Prawnil. We made the point before (in some dim and distant thread) that if Veganism is like religion, the branch of religion it's most like is Quakerism: there are a few defining features which all Quakers share, but plenty of differences - all of which spring from their Quaker beliefs, but none of which is a necessary condition of them being Quaker.

  35. #35
    leedsveg
    Guest

    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Prawnil

    Very interesting on first view, but I think I disagree with your 'fundamentals'. Off to Huddersfield for the day but I'll respond later.

    Good wishes

    lv

  36. #36
    leedsveg
    Guest

    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote Prawnil View Post
    A massive red marker would be easier. I certainly tripped over myself a lot. The point I was considering, and it's only a recent point of view, is that it might be useful (or, rather, it has been useful to me, because it's only a matter of attitude and doesn't involve doing anything) to pare back my idea of veganism to its minimum. To treat it as nothing more than the meeting point, rather than actual as an ethical attitude itself. But, as a meeting point with a concrete history that doesn't really allow much reinterpretation. In that way, any area of human interaction with other species that was not considered as a founding part of the vegan society's 'party line' should be treated as outside veganism. As in, up for discussion but not for inclusion in a definition of vegan.
    Hi Prawnil

    When the Vegetarian Society UK was founded in 1847 the "rules" did not go far enough towards the ethical consideration of animals and so Donald Watson + committee "added extra rules" when they founded the Vegan Society UK, in 1944. In view of what you say, should we now form another society with "even more added rules" to take account of the following?:

    Companion animals
    Feeding meat/fish to carnivorous companion animals
    Faux leather
    Meat analogues
    (Unhealthy)convenience foods
    Flavourings of unknown origin
    Sugar production possibly using bone char
    Small animals killed in crop production
    Use of eggs in vaccine production etc.....

    If you do agree for another society to be founded, I propose that you draw up the new rules, and become the president. I'd even let you name this society. So what do you say Prawnil?

    leedsveg

  37. #37
    whalespace's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Sample directive:
    Don't abuse or kill animals when you can remove the need to do so [obviate it].


    Quote Ruby Rose
    The practical baseline: in any situation, if there is an option which does not involve the use of animals or animal products, this is the option to choose.
    ...in order for the decision to fit the definition, yes.


    Quote Ruby Rose
    Moving from the practical baseline to the ethics beyond it: there are different ways of interpreting the abstract concept of Veganism, none of which is "the right one".
    The practical definition is straight forward, there need not be any ethics behind it at all. It is more of a directive than a concept. Right or wrong will be fairly clear in most cases, but how individual decisions affect wider objectives and other concerns will force the decision maker to compare relative values. These other values do not affect the definitive directive... only the relative importance among other 'directives'.

    Quote WhalePace
    There are variously abstract scopes of consideration.

    Personally, yes ethics are involved, but we can still proceed with only the directive:
    Becoming more abstract:
    I might avoid killing animals when they annoyed me, or beating them when they were working slowly.
    I might not persuade my husband to bring me rabbits for the soup.
    I could stop funding organisations which willfully abused or killed animals.
    My sample directive does not require me to bring an end to all animal suffering, nor even to campaign for others to consider the welfare of animals. Whether it did or not, I could still consider the net results of each day as the modified products of my activity... thereby developing an understanding of requirement, intention, and derived culpability.


    Back to life:

    Quote WhalePace
    The exchange of minor monetary tokens is a simple meditation, which is easily accessible, and recognisable to most individuals whom might become involved with the government of local practices, or the consideration of disputes between significant others.
    Quote Ruby Rose
    Hmm. "Exchange of minor monetary tokens" = buying things cheaply? Buying things "is a simple meditation"
    Yes.

    Quote Ruby Rose
    "is easily accessible and recognisable to most individuals" = is a way to demonstrate your veganism to others? So this part of the sentence... making choices to buy vegan products raises awareness of veganism to others?
    No.


    I invoked "exchange of monetary tokens"....
    whether one buys meat with money, or one buys money with heartbeats, exchanging tokens is a simple way of coming to terms, and negotiating terms. Buying things is a simple thing to talk about, but the protection of flows of "money" has been incorporated into laws the world over; Companies will provide "vegan alternatives", and people will buy them for practical reasons...even if the company pursues a parallel policy of animal product promotion. Clearly the money will strengthen the animal abusing policy makers and executors.


    Quote Ruby Rose
    "who[m] might become involved with the government of local practices, or the consideration of disputes between significant others" = who are in positions of social and legal authority?
    "government" = discussion, influence, policing, implementation
    "local practices" = what happens in the garden... or where the children learn things etcetera.
    Not necessarily "authority", but certainly compliance, or agreement, and dharma [to paraphrase].

    Incidentally, I have gotten into the habbit of using "who" to ask "which person"... or when identity is in question;
    I use "whom" when characteristics of the individual[s] have been identified.
    Eg: Who are the ring leaders? [No idea..i'm asking].
    Eg: The ring leaders whom gave directions. [The ring leaders 'which' were giving directions].
    Eg: Those whom might become involved. [Only those which might become involved... even though we have no idea which of them might do that].

    But frankly I haven't bought enough of the grammatical terms available to square that with the Queen.
    Quote WhalePace
    Simplicity is good. As far as this kind of goodness is concerned, results are also good.

    Quote Ruby Rose
    Keeping it simple means everyone gets the best out of the situation?

    If one is attempting to alter behaviour patterns, or communicate with people whom have complex ideas of their own, then simplicity will guage opinion more easily.

    Goodness of beneficial effect has been defined [if not explicitly identified]... although simplicity does bring beneficial effects in this instance [don't buy burgers] other more complicated methods also yield [these] results.

    Arguably the "As far as" line was ambiguous, but the illustration was worthwhile.
    Last edited by whalespace; Mar 27th, 2010 at 09:52 AM.
    Problematic is waking someone whom pretends to sleep.

  38. #38
    Prawnil
    Guest

    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    In view of what you say, should we now form another society with "even more added rules" to take account of the following? ...
    Oh, absolutely not. Since tone in text is so difficult to tell, I'm almost certain I've been [edit; no, not completely, just slightly] misunderstood. My point is that it helps if that list etc. is very clearly thrown overboard from veganism and no viewpoint on any of those things treated as vegan or not vegan. Any debate would be about consistency with the rest of an ethical attitude, but ones that're way past the limits of veganism, which in itself doesn't need to stand for much at all past a certain minimum [edit: a lot like Ruby mentioned about the Quaker talk].
    I'm sure many people already treat veganism this way. If an argument about whether something that wasn't historically defined as vegan is or isn't vegan breaks out, though, that's a sign that the people involved are treating their ethical attitude as veganism. What I'm saying is that now I treat my ethical attitude as allowing me to be a 'member of' veganism rather than taking veganism as my own, or open to much interpretation.

    It's interesting to think, and I'd be very surprised if this wasn't the case in other people, that exposure to the vegan community's norms feeds back on what you (I) treat as a personal moral position.

  39. #39
    leedsveg
    Guest

    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Quote Prawnil View Post
    Oh, absolutely not. Since tone in text is so difficult to tell, I'm almost certain I've been [edit; no, not completely, just slightly] misunderstood. My point is that it helps if that list etc. is very clearly thrown overboard from veganism and no viewpoint on any of those things treated as vegan or not vegan. Any debate would be about consistency with the rest of an ethical attitude, but ones that're way past the limits of veganism, which in itself doesn't need to stand for much at all past a certain minimum [my emphasis:lv][edit: a lot like Ruby mentioned about the Quaker talk].
    I'm sure many people already treat veganism this way. If an argument about whether something that wasn't historically defined as vegan is or isn't vegan breaks out, though, that's a sign that the people involved are treating their ethical attitude as veganism. What I'm saying is that now I treat my ethical attitude as allowing me to be a 'member of' veganism rather than taking veganism as my own, or open to much interpretation.

    It's interesting to think, and I'd be very surprised if this wasn't the case in other people, that exposure to the vegan community's norms feeds back on what you (I) treat as a personal moral position.
    Hi Prawnil

    I do believe I understand what you're saying but just to help me understand the implications, can you exactly define what you mean by "a certain minimum" (in "past the limits of veganism, which in itself doesn't need to stand for much at all past a certain minimum"?)

    leedsveg

  40. #40
    leedsveg
    Guest

    Default Re: How do you make 'vegan decisions'?

    Without an answer from Prawnil, I'll now never know what "veganism" is.

    lv

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