Disillusioned with the animal movement

[Emvegan]

I know this is kind of whiney for a first post but I need to vent. Also, hi!

I am just disappointed that the bar is set so low by these people. If you go on the RSPCA site (by far the largest animal organisation in the UK, they get millions in donations every year) and type vegan into their search box you get zero results. Indeed on the front page right now there's a silly woman in a supermarket holding a plastic wrap chicken. They even have a labelling scheme for their specially endorsed "Freedom Food" meat.

Ah yep the old happy meat phenomenon. I hear it all the time from meat eaters. "Oh if it had a good life then I think that's fine" and "I won't eat factory farmed meat" when you bloody know they do, it doesn't matter though as these animal people have managed to make meat eating acceptable. By making out this magical happy meat where animals gladly slit their throats after a full life out in green fields somehow exists their guilt is assuaged by association even if they're tucking into a bacon sub at Subway. Factory farming has been turned into the bogeyman everyone can get behind without changing their ways.

Then it seems like all animal rights demos are either about fur or vivisection. I am against both but in the grand scheme of things the two are dwarfed by the billions of animals killed for leather and animal products. Why keep plugging away at these two relatively tiny issues when it's not working anyway? These have been the pet issues of animal rights folk for the last few decades yet we still have animal testing and the fur trade is booming.

I also find people who are against fur, seal clubbing, dog meat, whaling or whatever who eat meat anyway quite maddening. It's very easy to criticise other cultures and their animal abuse but they don't address their own. By presenting these single issues above veganism we keep veganism as the fringe thing for "extremists" and we allow the mainstream to latch onto these single issues to prove to themselves that they have compassion for animals so they don't need to do any more than that.

Then you have tripe like meat free mondays. I mean seriously is this anything more than a celebrity photo op? Does anyone know any omnivores in real life who actually engage in this thing? Anecdotal I know but I don't. I also think it's pretty shameless of Sir Paul to preach animal rights when after all this time he is still not a vegan and the majority of the frozen dishes named after his late wife are not vegan. They even use egg pasta in all their pasta dishes!!!

You'd think the whole animal movement would be very welcoming of veganism but I feel very marginalised by it. I don't feel like animal rights has advanced at all in my lifetime and I very much feel like an outsider in a movement that thinks that welfarism and "eating less meat" should be the end goal. If veganism keeps being presented (or outright ignored in some cases) by the animal movement as this great noble sacrifice that only the crazy few can do it then of course it will stay niche and omnivores will continue to tuck into their freedom happy meat thinking they are doing enough.

[leedsveg]

Hi Emvegan

Well said and welcome to VF.

leedsveg

[animal-crackers]

Hello and welcome Emvegan

Very well said, i completely agree with everything you say. You are not an outsider here xx

[Glen Lambert]

..and breathe!

Excellent first post. Welcome.

[Feesh]

Well said Em, some people are just so ignorant and will never get it.

[cobweb]

Hello, welcome :smile:.

I feel much the same, it's frustrating.
As a vegan i so often feel that people think i'm being 'over the top' or weird. If i was a vegetarian i'd be perfectly acceptable . In a way it's like we (vegans, collectively) are playing along with keeping veganism on the fringes of 'normal society'. On the other hand, if we started having regular demos against milk consumption, for instance, would the general public just feel more alienated from veganism?.

It's hard to know the best way forward really but i do agree that we need to break some new ground with the less 'acceptable' issues .

On the issue of meat-eaters protesting against other forms of cruelty/working for animal welfare, yes, that is very very irritating. At least they are doing something good, but it's way short of the mark and it somehow gives a general impression that you can eat animals and still care about them .

I'm really glad that we have the RSPCA as their inspectors do as much good as they can within the framework of the law, but the whole 'freedom foods' bit is sickening .

[Emvegan]

On the other hand, if we started having regular demos against milk consumption, for instance, would the general public just feel more alienated from veganism?.

It's hard to know the best way forward really but i do agree that we need to break some new ground with the less 'acceptable' issues .

I am not too sure if a demo would be the way to go but I think education against cow milk consumption (within the context of a wider vegan education) would be a lot more useful than the same old tired anti-fur/vivisection stuff. I'm sure we've all come across people who think cows magically produce the stuff on tap without pregnancies and that we're doing them all a favour by taking their milk away otherwise they'd die (*facepalm*). Some people simply cannot be reached and won't change their mind but personally I think we'd achieve more if we convince 1 person to go vegan than if we convince 100 people that fur is bad.

If we frame animal exploitation as wrong full stop then maybe we can make some in-roads on this issue. The egg issue has completely failed. Battery cages are the convenient scapegoat but the act of raising chicken for eggs is still seen as okay "as long as they are treated okay" when that is obviously not the case. If instead of a welfarist movement we had an abolitionist movement as the dominant player in the animal movement I like to think we'd have made more progress. At least with milk we have tabula rasa.

As for alienating people we're pretty much in a situation where we have nothing to lose! I don't think we should water down our message or shy away from the truth in case we bruise some egos. That is what's been going on and it hasn't worked.

I'm really glad that we have the RSPCA as their inspectors do as much good as they can within the framework of the law, but the whole 'freedom foods' bit is sickening .

They do some good work but I am going to judge them based on what they could do considering the insane amount of money they get and the values they preach. In that context they are found very wanting.

[karen_87]

A while ago I came across the Society of Humane Slaughter or something along those lines and just couldn't believe what a joke that is. There is nothing humane about killing someone! People really need to pull their heads out of the sand.

I agree with Cobweb that holding demos regarding dairy exploitation would be useful, this should include eggs also, and the products made from dairy. There is milk powder in some crisps! If people knew the facts more perhaps they wouldn't think of veganism of being so extreme. But that depends on the general population having any heart for animals, as apparently no one does.

[cobweb]

As for alienating people we're pretty much in a situation where we have nothing to lose! I don't think we should water down our message or shy away from the truth in case we bruise some egos. That is what's been going on and it hasn't worked.

100% agree, just now exactly sure of the best way to move on with spreading the message effectively without alienating people. I don't care much about their bruised egos but we have to get people to listen and not shut down to the truth.

[sandra]

Hi Emvegan, I completely understand how you feel.

As far as the R.S.P.C.A is concerned, I don't really trust them much. I am only going on personal experience of course, it's to do with a stray cat that got knocked down and the treatment it received from the R.S.P.C.A. I think they are too quick to euthanize animals.

[pat sommer]

Hi Emvegan, feel free to rant.

Now, a few calming words from an old aunt.
It is hard to see the bigger picture. We obviously deal with people on a daily basis who refuse to see beyond their personal experience.

We too are limited by our personal experience and a stilted media. Our perception of 'the' animal rights movement probably doesn't encompass the spectrum of groups and good work being done out there.

Yes, some stances taken by high profile/ high income groups may feel counter productive and lead to our frustration with the whole scene. My mind has come around from an antagonistic view, then disregarding and now to tolerance. Not acceptance, mind you, but a tolerance that tells me if their tactics don't bare fruit then it won't last.

Everyone that wants to do good has to find their niche that matches their morality and their goals. I won't begrudge them their current pick but consider it a starting point. This is a wide and diverse and sometimes contradictory movement the same way we have seen the environmental movement over the decades. We are not monolithic.

*preaching over*

When I was in the UK (coming back this year) I had opportunities to do anti-dairy work. Demos, street stalls, cooking lessons. Outreach with anti calf export etc. I have my personal AR goals and am willing to work with just about anybody when our interests intersect.

Here in China, antifur and anti animal-based medicine is well organized and gets peoples attention: the thin end of the wedge! I can contribute.

I sure wish to see things going in a better direction for the non-human animals. I am not disheartened that it can't get better sooner. Maybe a change is just over the horizon? I can't yet see it but will putter along doing what I can and knowing that many good people have devoted their lives.

[Emvegan]

Yes, some stances taken by high profile/ high income groups may feel counter productive and lead to our frustration with the whole scene. My mind has come around from an antagonistic view, then disregarding and now to tolerance. Not acceptance, mind you, but a tolerance that tells me if their tactics don't bare fruit then it won't last.

The RSPCA have been raking in the donations with their current approach of focusing on pets and rubber stamping their approval on meat. They have no reason to change, they are the status quo and reflect the mood of the nation that some animals are more equal than others.

Everyone that wants to do good has to find their niche that matches their morality and their goals. I won't begrudge them their current pick but consider it a starting point. This is a wide and diverse and sometimes contradictory movement the same way we have seen the environmental movement over the decades. We are not monolithic.

Well it's simply not a movement I feel a part of. If all the self-professed animal lovers considered their current pet issue as a starting point rather than an end point we'd have more than 0.2% of the UK population as vegan. Most of these single issues seem only good for ego stroking rather than getting that person to confront their own animal abuse. Sorry to be all Francione but he's so right, the single issue approach has not worked!

When I was in the UK (coming back this year) I had opportunities to do anti-dairy work. Demos, street stalls, cooking lessons. Outreach with anti calf export etc.

Sweet! I wish I had the confidence or even knew someone to do a vegan street stall with. I very much respect anyone with the chutzpah to do that.

[pat sommer]

The British public is very civil with street stalls and demos, even chuggers! Give it a go; it can be very satisfying. Viva? Peta?

I agree some groups have no reason to change but that doesn't mean the individuals can't graduate up, so to speak. I don't have trouble with single issues as a hook. The active folks I know have often begun their journey this way.

You do what ever feels right for you. Don't have to belong to a movement; you are a movement. The circle of influence is wider than we see.

If it feels right knocking the actions of others then by all means get in the ring and put the gloves on. Change from the inside where possible. There must be a sizable disgruntled minority in RSPCA.

If we don't see a linear progression of improvement for the animals, does it prove Francione right? Where were we supposed to be after 40 years compared to the abstract alternative he hypothesizes? I hear it with alternative medicine or alternative education etc that our current systems are complete failures compared to the promise of the untested. We are asked to accept his prophesies on faith. It is not supported by logic.

Not that he doesn't have persuasive arguments and not that I disagree with any particular point but taking the odd nature of humanity into account, I reckon real lasting change comes less from having our moral code confronted than from a myriad of outside factors. First comes the change then comes the moral code in many instances! Womens' suffrage and child labour come to mind...

Reading about randomness was oddly reassuring to me (reccommend author Nassim Nicholas Taleb).

Hope I haven't come across all judgemental and pushy. I just wish for you to find some encouragement when frustration can easily overwhelm. It takes courage. Others, we have no control over; do the bit you feel compelled to do and don't let anyone tell you it isn't significant.

[trudyscrumptious]

When active in animal rights groups often have to select one or several issues to focus on just because of lack of human and financial resources making it impossable to work on every issure we feel strongly about as vegans. I think this is why people oftern select fur and such like because it represents such a high level of cruelty for the animals involved.

That is not to say that a focus on milk or eggs or any form of animal cruelty wouldn't be valuble and have the potential to reach people if done in the right way. I've been involved in some pro-vegan stuff (as well as anti-vivisection and anti-fois gras campaigning) and this seems to be a good way to approach the topic and we always get at least a few interested members of the public. Free vegan food helps.

I can see why you are frustrated. I think a lot of people feel like you do. I know I do at times. I'm sick of hearing the "happy" meat argument from my mother and others who know absolutely nothing (usually by choice) about what they are talking about. You'd think these "happy" animals were actually jumping in their plates as they are so desperate to be eaten after living such great lives.

Emvegan, I would suggest you find like minded activists in you area (if there are any) and get involved in issues that matter to you. You will be suprised what you can do. Just think local and chalenge animal abuse in your area.

Great post by the way!

[wildcatstrike]

Emvegan, I would suggest you find like minded activists in you area (if there are any) and get involved in issues that matter to you. You will be suprised what you can do. Just think local and chalenge animal abuse in your area.

I second that. And hi Emvegan - If you're not very happy with what other activists do and what society and the RSPCA etc thinks then try and put changes in place yourself. Even if they are small ones. The "animal movement" that disillusions you is, afterall, only made up of individuals who choose to get active.

Are you involed in any sort of AR/Vegan campaigning? You could easily stick milk or eggs leaflets through letterboxes in your town, or hand them to people - Viva & Animal Aid have great resources for this kind of thing and it does raise awareness and in some cases makes people go veg (I have personal experience of this happening because of my leafletting - they even have a Viva car window sticker now too so probably joined Viva as well!).

The Vegan society have a list of contacts you could write to, even if they don't live near you, you could travel to get involved in things if these issues are that important to you. Where do you live? I'm sure you could meet people close by who are on this forum?

I've done anti-dairy stalls with Viva supporters and local activists i contacted through the internet, so if you're not keen on all the anti-fur demoes etc I'm sure you could help organise something that's more important to you.

All the best.

[Stuart]

I like you already Emvegan. Yep, couldn't agree more.

I feel the same way about Morrissey as you do Paul McCartney, though I do suspect he is stricter. But yes, that is more than annoying... Welcome!

[thegoob]

Emvegan,

You will come to find out that even among vegans the abolitionist viewpoint is in the minority. As you can already see by some of the comments made in this thread, people don't take it seriously. They just want to question Gary Francione and call him a radical elitist. It is a fact that the welfarist approach cannot lead to veganism. If all the focus is on treatment, then that makes room for happy meat and ex-vegans and pigs cartwheeling into a meat grinder with big smiles on their faces.

If you want a vegan world, your time and/or money will be better spent on go vegan T-shirts and stickers or making cupcakes for people at work/school. That way you can get your message out in a positive environment without all the hypocrisy involved in the campaigns of these massive animal welfare organizations.

[Mr Flibble]

I could write a long reply to this post, but shalln't - I could be here a while.

Essentially I agree with a lot of what has been said and will draw attention to the fact that most people active in AR are not vegan (many not vegetarian). People get obsessed with protection of one species whilst ignoring the far greater suffering their lifestyle inflicts on others. That's not to say I disagree with people working for welfare of one species only, so long as they don't actively encourage suffering of another (think pet rescue BBQ fundraiser).

[trudyscrumptious]

You will come to find out that even among vegans the abolitionist viewpoint is in the minority

Most of the vegans I know would probably say they are abolitionist. I know I want an end to ALL animal suffering not just a little less suffering for some animals. Otherwise you end up rubber stamping cages and other items or procedures that only serve to make animal abuse more profitable for companies or make people feel good about buying "happy" meat. It's a shame more people don't believe in an abolitionist point of view.

[Emvegan]

Francione was largely responsible for bringing me back into the vegan fold after lapsing into vegetarianism for a couple of years and for that I am very grateful. His discussion with Erik Markus from a few years ago really struck a chord with me, at last there was a coherent logical philosophy that really resonated with me. I do think some of his supporters can be a little obsessive but they mean well and better they quote him than Newkirk, Foer, Singer etc. Overall he is a real asset to the movement and someone we can proud of because he uses debate rather than sensationalism and violence.

That's my 2p anyway

[pat sommer]

foer

"Murdering someone would surely prove that you are capable of killing, but it wouldn’t be the most reasonable way to understand why you shouldn’t do it."

newkirk

"Recognize meat for what it really is: the antibiotic- and pesticide-laden corpse of a tortured animal."


Singer

"All the arguments to prove man's superiority cannot shatter this hard fact: in suffering the animals are our equals."

[rxseeeyse]

hey about the meat free mondays, honestly, MY FAMILY MEMBER DO THAT!!! my grandma, which is the person who inspired me spiritually and taught me many things in life, although herself did not turn vegan but she has meat free days twice a month. I RESPECT HER FOR THAT.
i think it's better for people to do something than nothing at all.

maybe I should try to convert the people close to me, but it's very hard to convert anyone. NO one listen to the arguing anyways. although I've filled myself up with all the facts and numbers, so? it's not like my friends or family cares.

oh btw, in my case, people knew about cow milk production, they just simply don't care.
when I used to live in china, people kill fish on the spot, a tank filled with blood, children playing around. no one really cares. I didn't either when I was small but now I can't stand to watch that.
Dunno wat did the trigger, if I can find out wat did to change me, maybe I can then change others.

[Shepherd Mom]

Emvegan,

You will come to find out that even among vegans the abolitionist viewpoint is in the minority. As you can already see by some of the comments made in this thread, people don't take it seriously. They just want to question Gary Francione and call him a radical elitist. It is a fact that the welfarist approach cannot lead to veganism. If all the focus is on treatment, then that makes room for happy meat and ex-vegans and pigs cartwheeling into a meat grinder with big smiles on their faces.

If you want a vegan world, your time and/or money will be better spent on go vegan T-shirts and stickers or making cupcakes for people at work/school. That way you can get your message out in a positive environment without all the hypocrisy involved in the campaigns of these massive animal welfare organizations.

So true! When I wear vegan/animal rights t-shirts people comment on them or ask me about them and then I get to explain! When I bring a delicious meal to work for lunch and people ask me what smells so good, I get to tell them it's vegan and share the recipe! Family members, co-workers and neighbors are looking into veganism because of me! I love going to demos and handing out leaflets but I do feel that a lot of people throw the literature away without even absorbing anything from it; or see a group of people demonstrating or protesting and think "crazies!" (especially in January in Minnesota).

[pat sommer]

"if I can find out wat did to change me, maybe I can then change others." That's the spirit, Rxeeeyse!

...and Shephard Mom, I have been a crazy out in January too; It was the 6:00 news we aimed for rather than the attention of passersby. Getting into people's living rooms is a first step; chatting about veganism with nice folks like you, follows.

[Lisey_duck]

The question with meat-free Mondays is how people approach them. If someone says 'right, meat-free Monday, but every meal needs to have milk or egg and I'll eat meat at least twice each of the other days' then that has no purpose except slightly dubious self-promotion. If someone approaches it as the first step to cutting out all meat and then other animal products, that's different. Institutional meat-free Mondays serve an awareness-raising purpose, although obviously it needs to be one that can be built on towards veganism.

[missbettie]

IMO a step in the right direction, is a step in the right direction. but I totally understand where everyone is coming from.

[Hel]

I still come accross lots of people who didnt know that milk doesnt just magically come from cows for our enjoyment, usually after they ask me why I dont drink the vile stuff! As an adult, the thought of drinking breast milk from any species repulses me!