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Thread: Can invertebrates suffer?

  1. #1
    jeff
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    Default Can invertebrates suffer?

    Can invertebrates suffer? I don't know, but I think it is a very important question for at least two reasons.

    Their number. After reading a lot on the topic I would estimate the probability that insects can suffer around 10 per cent. Unfortunatly this rather low probability is more than compensated by their astronomically large number. I found two estimations of the number of insects. The lower is a billion billions, the other ten times as high. And there are vast numbers of other invertebrates like other arthropodes or worms, too.

    Insecticides. Even on fields for a vegan diet countless insects are killed. Some pesticides kill slow and in potentially very cruel ways. By using more humane insecticides or by limiting the insects reproduction in other ways we could achieve a lot with little effort. If one wants to reduce suffering one of the most effective ways could be to think about insects.

  2. #2

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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    I had to reply to this as I really love invertebrates and think you make some good points. I think they can suffer, as it makes sense that all living things having biological processes that get them to do things, and the chemical that tells them to run away when a predator is chasing them could be named 'fear' just like the chemical that tells them to return to the social group could be named 'loneliness'.
    However I don't think that they even need to suffer in order to warrent protection from harm and the right to live. To me if someone had created a robot that looked at behaved just like a ladybird (for example) that would be an amazing work of art and science that I would think it abhorrent to thoughtlessly destroy or damage.
    Invertebrates are classed as animals, they move, reproduce, often care for their eggs and young, search for food, form social groups, even farm and build incredible structures to live in, eg. ants and wasps, to me this warrents their protection even if they don't suffer. Plus vegans avoid things like honey and silk, which indicates that other people agree that invertebrates suffer.
    However this is something I often struggle with, since as you point out even a vegan diet can lead to invertebrate deaths, and they are part of the food chain supporting pretty much all of life on this planet.

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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    Hmm Whats the general feeling about fleas? I treat my dogs and cats against fleas, I was doing it herbally/holistically but have reverted back to chamical treatments that do work.
    I have often pondered on if i am in fact being cruel to the fleas? I do feel however that I would be being crueller still to me pets by not treating them.

  4. #4
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    None of us like doing it but I don't think there's any alternative to killing fleas and other parasites such as intestinal worms, unfortunately. Neither we nor our companion animals can really coexist with them and remain healthy, so to me it's in the "them or us" bracket.

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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    yes, I agree .
    I suppose the term 'parasite' is the clue here - if the parasite's 'host' happens to be us or our companion animals, we need to take action.

  6. #6
    jeff
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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    Here are some interesting links on the topic:
    This one by Alan Dawrst made me first think about it.
    This one is called Consciousness in a Cockroach.
    This very good one on wild animals fits also on the topic.

  7. #7
    Aerfen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    There's no doubt they do suffer as they have a central nervous system. I have always had much respect for all animals, insects included. I remember rescuing injured insects when I was little, and trying to nurse them back to health. And indeed, the fact that they can flee danger or pain is a proof, as feeling pain would be useless, biologically speaking, if you can't do something about it. Jeff's link about Consciousness in cockroaches is interesting but I don't enjoy reading the details of what is simply animal testing and vivisection.

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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    Yeah the flee thing is sort of like headlice, I wondered a while ago about what vegans do if their kids get headlice, because I wouldn't want them to come to harm but obviously they can't be left there forever feasting on your kids! Someone on the forum had posted about a sort of badge which repells headlice, so they don't go there in the first place. Like the equivalent of a flee collar I suppose. But I still don't really know how I'd feel about killing them all if they did get there anyway.
    Toughy! Because by taking their lives I'd feel like I was playing God, but of course I wouldn't leave my pets or kids to be riddled with fleas and headlice.
    I'd say go organic to try avoiding so much killing of insects, but turns out there is a certain amount of chemicals that even "organic" labelled goods can be sprayed with - not really organic then is it!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    I've said a few times in other threads on this and other boards that I remove carefully, but don't kill, parasites. If their removal results in their death then it's just a result of my having rights too. It's unfortunate, but nature can be pretty stark sometimes.
    ..but what would they do with all the cows?..

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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    I find this is also a problem with being a gardener. I've always been a gardener and it seems to fit in great with a vegan lifestyle as I know my veg has been fed with my own compost and not 'blood, fish and bone' the standard organic vegetable food. But then even in organic gardening insects are killed it is just the methods used to do so are deemed to be less harmful to other wildlife, the environment or humans. I pick off slugs and snails and take them to scrubland and I try to manage other insect frenzies by not having just one crop and using companion planting and encouraging other insects and birds etc to come in and manage it in a more natural cycle. But sometimes it can be very depressing to find my cabbages or cucumbers absolutely decimated by insects and so I then end up having to buy veg anyway. Perhaps it is the lesser of two evils to be the one who personally occasionally kills the most limited amount of insects possible to be able to grow your own vegetables rather than avoiding killing any but then buying veg that other people have killed far more insects in order to produce it.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    Quote Aerfen View Post
    There's no doubt they do suffer as they have a central nervous system. I have always had much respect for all animals, insects included. I remember rescuing injured insects when I was little, and trying to nurse them back to health.
    Me too! Finding congealed greenfly in the birdbath and unsticking their legs with tiny shards of grass. My boyfriend does this too. People think we're potty

    My gut feeling is they do suffer. Since I've been vegan the only living creature I've deliberately killed was a spider. I'd been removing slate from the garden and must have accidentally hurt it- it wasn't moving but it was twitching and it seemed the only right thing to do. It really upset me to do it.
    eatalltheveganthings.blogspot.co.uk

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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    My personal opinion is that all animals have rights and nothing should be killed just to be killed. But at the same time, if something like parasites or lice or fleas are attacking me, my pets, or my loved ones, i'm going to take action. If an insect has to die because they are attacking me, so be it, otherwise I leave them well enough alone. if I can get rid of something that's attacking me without killing it, of course i would choose to do that. But i'm not going to leave fleas on my cats, ya know?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    The Fight or Flight response indicates they have the ability to suffer.

  14. #14
    jeff
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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    Does anyone know an organization that does something on insecticides?

  15. #15
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    Quote jeff View Post
    Can invertebrates suffer?
    Don't know and, in the nicest possible way, don't care.

    Compassion is essential for happiness. The greater the compassion we have the greater our happiness.

    Kinda like whether a 'thing' can, or cannot, suffer is irrelevant. We will be happier in ourselves if we treat it as if it could.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    Jeff- the uk organisation 'buglife' www.buglife.org.uk campaigns for invertebrate conservation and in May this year were campaigning about pesticides (including insecticides) : http://www.buglife.org.uk/News/newsa...aging+wildlife (if this link doesn't work you can type pesticides into the search box on the main buglife page. They also mention a few other organisations like the RSPB who also campaign against pesticides but I know buglife is the only uk conservation group specifically for invertebrates.

    It concerns me that even in organic farming it is ok to use natural insecticides, which whilst less harmful to a wider range of animals than chemical ones, still result in the destruction of species, and often the introduction of non-native species, eg the harlequin ladybird was introduced from asia in commercial greenhouses in order to control green fly and now it has spread across the country and is putting our native ladybirds at risk.

  17. #17
    African_Prince
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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Don't know and, in the nicest possible way, don't care.

    Compassion is essential for happiness. The greater the compassion we have the greater our happiness.

    Kinda like whether a 'thing' can, or cannot, suffer is irrelevant. We will be happier in ourselves if we treat it as if it could.
    I don't understand this at all. So having compassion for others is just a calculated strategy to achieve personal happiness but you could care less whether or not others suffer? Should I treat my laptop as though it can suffer because doing so will make me happier? I agree that love (empathy/sympathy/compassion is a form of love) is the most intense and durable form of happiness, because we are highly social animals we cannot be truly happy without it, but it only benefits us to be compassionate if our compassion is genuine, for our compassion to be genuine we have to genuinely care whether or not others suffer. Besides, compassion isn't just appropriate because it makes us happy, it is the simple realization that everything in nature is connected, regardless of whether or not feeling connected to others makes us happy we actually are (according to physics).

    In response to the OP,

    I think every animal with a nervous system should be given the benefit of the doubt. Consciousness is just the processing of information, only an organism with a nervous system can process information (reacting to stimuli is not the same thing). Invertebrate nervous systems produce neurotransmitters that are analogous to mammalian neurotransmitters that are involved in our feelings of pleasures and stress.

  18. #18
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    Quote African_Prince View Post
    I don't understand this at all. So having compassion for others is just a calculated strategy to achieve personal happiness but you could care less whether or not others suffer?
    Ok, I see how that looked now ... DOH!

    I didn't mean 'dont care' in a callous sense and I probably should have said 'living thing' not just 'thing'.

    As for 'calculated strategy' we would end up in the old "is there any such thing as true altruism?" loop if we ventured futher there.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  19. #19
    The Veganbetic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can invertebrates suffer?

    If I get headlice/bodylice, or botfly, or tapeworm, roundworm, etc: out they go.

    Of course, prevention is important....

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